The Bhatts (or Bhatrai Sikhs)

[ipledgeblue]

accha, so maybe u can tell someone what heritage one belongs to?

jatts are also followers of dharma, and please tell me what i am supposed to be disillusioned about, is it some sore of pride you are accusing me of?

[Mithr]

Although I'm Jatt, but personally I think keeping pride in ones Jaat Paat is really shallow thinking. They don't realise that ones Jaat Paat is only connected to that person's Sareer/body. Your body is Jatt not your aatma.

In my previous birth I could have been a Chamar, Churha, Khatri, Brahmin or even an animal. Aatma doesn't have any Jaat Paat. When we take pride in ones Jaat we are basically getting more and more entangled in this temporary materialistic reality.

[Niranjana]

Londondajatt,

I will take a different view from Shaheediyan on this matter (although perfectly understand where he is coming from and admire his idealism).

When you make the statement such as:

""For example may i have pride in my jatt heritage, including warriors shaheeds and kings, or am i not allowed to?"

I can understand why you feel that way, at some level we all identify as either Sikh/Muslim/Jewish/etc and/or Canadian/British/etc and then maybe Punjabi/Marathi/European/etc and matters such as Jatt/Tarkhan/Khatri/etc are not necessarily any different however we wish to dress it up - i.e. the nice argument that these are man made titles and we should all just view ourselves as Human is not going to get us very far...in secular circles it is common to hear that biologically 'race' does not exist, however I think we can see that in day to day life it clearly does - for better or worse, depending on the situation.

So, personally, if one identifies themselves as a Jatt is not in itself implying that one to be judging others on the basis of 'caste' anymore than someone describing themselves as 'white' is in itself implying that someone to be a racist, i.e. the statement "I don't believe in caste" is invalid.

What I will say, however is if one chooses to align themselves with any of the above mentioned groups, then deal with the good and the bad - I align myself as a Sikh and make no inhibition of being proud and honoured to be part of this great tradition, however as many who know me here, I have no qualms in critiquing Punjabi Sikhs, including those of my own 'biradhari' or others that I am married into or have relations with - likewise, have your Jatt pride if you so choose, but then don't cry when ugly truths about your people emerge, be a man and face up to it!

On that note, I would recommend that all the Jatt fans have a careful read of the rather detailed account Rattan Singh Bhangoo provides for the events leading up to the Shaheedi of Guru Tegh Bahadur and the role that the Jatts had in the numerous tortures that Guru Sahib were subjected to (something that most modern day English Sikh History Books or Gyanis also fail to mention), likewise read the accounts of the Jatt "warriors" who demanded payment from Guru Gobind Singh when the heat got turned up during combat and saw fit to leave his side (and no I am not referring to the 40 Mukte, they actually came back to the Guru's side and didn't demand payment either).

Sikh History has been repeatedly looted by Jatts over the past 300 years and conveniently for them, in today's politically correct environment, it is taboo to raise such issues since one gets accused of being anti-Jatt and/or racist, yet the Jatts can continue to enjoy the power they have usurped from others by nothing more than larger numerical representation and critique other groups who have only recently began to experience upward social mobility (and that too at their own efforts) as being divisive for openly declaring their caste affiliations.

Sorry boys, you can't have it both ways, keep your pride if you so desire, but don't fail to clean under your beds once in while!

[shaheediyan]

Thanks Niranjana, but it is not my idealism, it's my Guru's sat-bachan.

[Niranjana]

Shaheediyan - I do not doubt the words of the Guru (i.e. warning us against the dangers of caste-discrimination), however the statement that "we do not believe in caste" simply does not hold true in practice, otherwise why would great Bhagats repeatedly make reference to their own caste, high or low.

[amardeep]

niranjana:

what was the role of the jatts in the shaheedi of Guru Tegh Bahadur Maharaj

[shaheediyan]

"however the statement that "we do not believe in caste" simply does not hold true in practice, otherwise why would great Bhagats repeatedly make reference to their own caste, high or low."

The shudra Bhagats mention of caste was a challenge and provocation to the Brahmin monopoly on God (at that time - particulalry in their stronghold Benaras, as well as being divine statements evidencing the fact that caste plays no role in the attainment of atmak vidya or spiritual practice/teaching.

Their caste was simply reflecting their profession, which was considered beneath the reach of God revelation - hence them making statements about it (to disprove the corrupt) - it was Bhagat Kabir Ji himself who broke the mould of Brahmin monopolised gyaan gur-shishya tradition by becoming Bhagat Ramanand Ji's disciple.

[ipledgeblue]

Londondajatt,

I will take a different view from Shaheediyan on this matter (although perfectly understand where he is coming from and admire his idealism).

When you make the statement such as:

""For example may i have pride in my jatt heritage, including warriors shaheeds and kings, or am i not allowed to?"

I can understand why you feel that way, at some level we all identify as either Sikh/Muslim/Jewish/etc and/or Canadian/British/etc and then maybe Punjabi/Marathi/European/etc and matters such as Jatt/Tarkhan/Khatri/etc are not necessarily any different however we wish to dress it up - i.e. the nice argument that these are man made titles and we should all just view ourselves as Human is not going to get us very far...in secular circles it is common to hear that biologically 'race' does not exist, however I think we can see that in day to day life it clearly does - for better or worse, depending on the situation.

So, personally, if one identifies themselves as a Jatt is not in itself implying that one to be judging others on the basis of 'caste' anymore than someone describing themselves as 'white' is in itself implying that someone to be a racist, i.e. the statement "I don't believe in caste" is invalid.

What I will say, however is if one chooses to align themselves with any of the above mentioned groups, then deal with the good and the bad - I align myself as a Sikh and make no inhibition of being proud and honoured to be part of this great tradition, however as many who know me here, I have no qualms in critiquing Punjabi Sikhs, including those of my own 'biradhari' or others that I am married into or have relations with - likewise, have your Jatt pride if you so choose, but then don't cry when ugly truths about your people emerge, be a man and face up to it!

On that note, I would recommend that all the Jatt fans have a careful read of the rather detailed account Rattan Singh Bhangoo provides for the events leading up to the Shaheedi of Guru Tegh Bahadur and the role that the Jatts had in the numerous tortures that Guru Sahib were subjected to (something that most modern day English Sikh History Books or Gyanis also fail to mention), likewise read the accounts of the Jatt "warriors" who demanded payment from Guru Gobind Singh when the heat got turned up during combat and saw fit to leave his side (and no I am not referring to the 40 Mukte, they actually came back to the Guru's side and didn't demand payment either).

Sikh History has been repeatedly looted by Jatts over the past 300 years and conveniently for them, in today's politically correct environment, it is taboo to raise such issues since one gets accused of being anti-Jatt and/or racist, yet the Jatts can continue to enjoy the power they have usurped from others by nothing more than larger numerical representation and critique other groups who have only recently began to experience upward social mobility (and that too at their own efforts) as being divisive for openly declaring their caste affiliations.

Sorry boys, you can't have it both ways, keep your pride if you so desire, but don't fail to clean under your beds once in while!

pride or no pride, i do not see why i should deny i am jatt.

also the jatts that asked fro payment, were they the brars perhaps?

Also i do not see jatts crying over the deeds of a few jatts.

[Niranjana]

Amardeep, Rattan Singh Bhangoo's text will provide ample discussion of that subject - otherwise maybe ask on Jattworld.com or even better write a letter to that so-called great 'scholar' who authored "History of the Jatts" and see if in his so-called 'historical research and analysis' he bothered to consider this event and others like it from the Guru-period?

FYI. Those not familiar with this text (History of the Jatts), it's really great stuff -apparently all the Khalsa insignias (Kesh and Kirpan in particular) were traditionally Jatt customs which the Gurus chose to adopt for the Sikhs!!! What's even funnier is when this 'Jatt' scholar makes this statement, all the Jatts get 'proper happy' however when Hew McLeod suggests the same, then he automatically becomes an agent of the GOI!!!

[Niranjana]

Shaheediyan, again I fully understand your stance on the matter and the inspiration for it (and why the Bhagats made use of their caste titles, altough this does lead into another discussion, which I'll save for another time), to make my earlier statement clearer, I am simply playing devil's advocate with respect to Londondajatt's statements.

[shaheediyan]

Londondajatt, I'm happy to learn that you have decided to preserve your inherited profession, do you grow organic vegetables on your London farm?

My issue is not about you claiming to be or deciding to call yourself Jatt - and more to the point promoting it as your source of pride.

My issue was with you trying to portray this as historical Khalsa norm - read your earlier statements.

[Niranjana]

Londondajatt:

"pride or no pride, i do not see why i should deny i am jatt"

No one is asking you to do this - which is precisely my point, is it really any different from describing oneself as a Punjabi or English or as Black or South Asian? Not really, since there are peculiarities to Punjabis that are not common amongst other South Asians, likewise there exist certain cultural peculiarities to Jatts which are not common amongst say Khatris and vice versa - these 'peculiarities' are not necessarily bad or even 'against Sikhi', i.e the styles/structure of families, food, hospitality, language etc etc.

The "caste" biradari amongst Punjabis is not the same as the 'caste' system advocated by the Law of Manu, however the danger is that as one group experiences upward social mobility, they will seek to adopt the customs of the former 'upper class'. This is evident amongst Sikhs, where post-Banda Singh Bahadur, lured by the prospect of a possible Sikh empire, Jatts converted to Sikhism en masse and since that time we see gradual adoption by Jatts of corrupted Brahmin type practices (i.e. the now famous, only a Jatt can be the Sri Mahant of a Nirmala Akhara through to the forbidding of so-called 'lower castes' from entry to the Harimandir Sahib).

This is no different to what we commonly see in the Western world and what may describe as the 'nouveau riche' - the rise to prominance and sudden wealth of a previously 'lower class' and the practices and lifestyle that tend to follow in such cases.

Hence, why I full see where Shaheediyan is coming down hard on us all with his posts and why Gurbani ultimately supports his stance.

"also the jatts that asked fro payment, were they the brars perhaps?"

Yes - which leads nicely into the assertion made by Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Bindranwale Brar Khalsa Jee that he supposedly descended from the one Brar Jatt who on that occasion didn't ask for payment - something that the Sikh populace readily accepted without query!

I guess that General Brar who led the Military Attack on the Harimandir Sahib was a descendent of the other Brar Jatts? What is really interesting is that as time has passed since the 1980s and more and more Jatts begin to adopt anti-Khalistani sentiments (usually owing to them wanting a new excuse to shed their Kesh rather than anything with the underlying cause), it is very easy to see a growing trend where the during the lead up into the 1980s, Sant Jarnail Singh Bindranwale was seen as a great saviour of the people and many Jatts were delighted to have one of their kin in the limelight, however now with the growing anti-Khalistan sentiment, it is only a matter of time that Jatts will begin to pride themselves on their new heroes (General Brar and even the lowly KPS Gill) as the saviours of Punjab from Sikh terrorists! Have a look at Jattworld, this trend is already evident.

Bottom line, Khalistanis shot down General Vaida and several other high level officials during the 1980s and 1990s, yet the very people responsible for the gross attack on the Harimandir Sahib and slaughter of many young Sikhs in fake encounters, namely two great Jatt Soldiers (General Brar and KPS Gill) walk freely (in the case of General Brar, without any protection!) Khalistanis love to pride themselves on gunning down an unarmed female, however what happens when it comes to their Jatt brethren such Gill and Brar, why are they pardoned?!!!

"Also i do not see jatts crying over the deeds of a few jatts"

No you won't, since they are happily unaware of the deeds of numerous Jatts throughout Sikh history and the damage they have done and continue to do - of course, its racist or unsikh of me to say this in 'this day and age' because the PC club will shoot me down!

[ipledgeblue]

Londondajatt, I'm happy to learn that you have decided to preserve your inherited profession, do you grow organic vegetables on your London farm?

My issue is not about you claiming to be or deciding to call yourself Jatt - and more to the point promoting it as your source of pride.

My issue was with you trying to portray this as historical Khalsa norm - read your earlier statements.

so u r implying by bein jatt i ave inherited the kisaan profession?

Do you feel iut wrong if someone says they are jatt, or maybe have some maan from it? I just want to know why I should be so PC about it?

Well I didn;t mention the khalsa, but it is definetly a norm in all the pinds. I do not see what sikh has to do with humanity forgetting its cultures and traditions, this is more something invading mohammedans would preach perhaps?

[shaheediyan]

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਭੇਖੈ ।

ਭੇਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਏ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਰੇਖੈ ।

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਰਨੁ ਅਵਰਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਵਿ ਚਲਣਾ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਿ ਵਿਸੇਖੈ ।

ਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਘਾਲਿ ਪਵੈ ਦਰਿ ਲੇਖੈ ॥੨੫॥

[chatanga1]

niranjana, can you shed more light on your statement that Sant jarnail Singh himself said that he descended from one jat who didnt ask for payment please?

i have heard more or less all his recordings, and i have never heard that b4.

thanks in advance.

[amardeep]

I had an interesting argument with an aunti yesterday who claimed that a sikh should only marry sikhs from within ones one caste. The funny thing is that this particular aunti is one of those who've been fighting "for dharma against the moderm manmukhs/pappe" this year at the local Gurdwara......

The way i see it, the Gurus did not talk against the use of castes, but only against taking excessive pride in ones caste.

[Niranjana]

Amardeep,

I think Shaheediyan has adequately demonstrated the meesage of Gurbani vis-a-vis caste.

Outside of this we are commenting on our individual views and/or providing examples of what has happened historically with regard to caste pride amongst the Sikhs.

Chatanga,

I am sure you can find the story regarding the Brar Jatts from Londondajatt and others like him.

[Mithr]

I guess that General Brar who led the Military Attack on the Harimandir Sahib was a descendent of the other Brar Jatts? What is really interesting is that as time has passed since the 1980s and more and more Jatts begin to adopt anti-Khalistani sentiments (usually owing to them wanting a new excuse to shed their Kesh rather than anything with the underlying cause), it is very easy to see a growing trend where the during the lead up into the 1980s, Sant Jarnail Singh Bindranwale was seen as a great saviour of the people and many Jatts were delighted to have one of their kin in the limelight, however now with the growing anti-Khalistan sentiment, it is only a matter of time that Jatts will begin to pride themselves on their new heroes (General Brar and even the lowly KPS Gill) as the saviours of Punjab from Sikh terrorists! Have a look at Jattworld, this trend is already evident.

Niranjana, I personally don't know any Jatt who thinks of General Brar or KPS Gill as their "Jatt Hero". I know Jatts who are for and against Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindrawalay, but no one(monay or Kesadhari) I know supports the likes of Gen Brar and KPS Gill. Jatts that do support these two are the fringe of society.

The Jatt pride really took off after the fall of the Khalistani movement in Punjab. The government of Punjab at the time began organising Punjabi cultural shows which especially high lighted Jatt culture, but made sure to exlude Sikhi in this. That is why many people in Punjab and even abroad are now celebrating Vaisakhi as a secular cultural event rather than a Sikh holy day, even though Vaisakhi is both a cultural and religion day.

Today, mainstream Sikhs can be classified as being secular people who follow Punjabi culture. Sikh values and Sikh culture means little to Sikhs in todays world.

What today's Punjabis fail to realise is that without Sikhi, Punjabi Jatts, Tarkhans and others would be NOTHING! Before Sikhi came in, brave Jatts were getting their asses kicked by Pathans and Turks invading from the North West who would also take away their women. It's only and ONLY because of Sikhi that we Sikhs despite being a minority of only 7-8% in Muslim majority Punjab managed to take it away from Muslims and rule it. This is unheard of anywhere else in the Islamic world that a small tiny minority managed to rule over a Muslim majority area. Plus we also managed to conquer Kashmir and North West frontier!

This all happened because we were Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh. Jattism or any other ethnic, caste affiliation had NOTHING to do with it. We need to THANK Guru Gobind Singh Jee a million times a day for giving us the gift of the Khalsa Brotherhood. Taking pride in being Jatt is NOTHING compared to taking pride in being a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

[ipledgeblue]

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਈ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਭੇਖੈ ।

ਭੇਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਏ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਰੇਖੈ ।

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਰਨੁ ਅਵਰਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਵਿ ਚਲਣਾ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਿ ਵਿਸੇਖੈ ।

ਤਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਘਾਲਿ ਪਵੈ ਦਰਿ ਲੇਖੈ ॥੨੫॥

this is to do with 4 varnas, which have not been mentioned yet in this conversation lol

[shaheediyan]

Yes, and proud Jatts (those diseasing puratan sampradas with their wannabe Brahmin ethos and discriminating against others) are not the self proclaimed Bramins within their newly established Sikh vaarna system are they?

If nothing has sunk by now it's unlikely to. Carry on living in your wonderland if you choose.

[unbreakable]

..

[Niranjana]

"please correct me, as I have not taken amrit, but don't the Panj Pyare and Guru Ji have authority to baptise people?"

Yes, but how frequently do we hear the same comment passed about Sant so and so Singh, Baba XYZ Singh or Bhai Blah Blah Singh...of course, no one bats an eyelid when these statements are passed!

[shaheediyan]

The reference to XYZ giving amrit to so many is not actually refering to the absence of the Panj Pyare etc it is refering to the Baba's parchaar/smaagam. Unfortunately some overly fanatical chelai like to keep records and and promote the numbers of people saved to date....

[ipledgeblue]

Yes, and proud Jatts (those diseasing puratan sampradas with their wannabe Brahmin ethos and discriminating against others) are not the self proclaimed Bramins within their newly established Sikh vaarna system are they?

If nothing has sunk by now it's unlikely to. Carry on living in your wonderland if you choose.

my my, this seems more like a personal problem than something to do with caste pride

[ipledgeblue]

(click on the gallery option)

Baba Mehtab Singh Bance, c.1930

Sikh missionary and preacher, baptised over 1100 Sikhs into the Khalsa Panth.

please correct me, as I have not taken amrit, but don't the Panj Pyare and Guru Ji have authority to baptise people?

Maybe its a mistake on thier website.

What is a Bhatra Sikh anyway?

"Bhat Sikhs are not caste but a Sikh sub-group, whose members are from all areas of the Sikh spectrum

Sikhism itself recognizes no caste, and we are in no way promoting sub groups or the caste system, or showing any superiority towards the Bhat Sikh Community or any other community, but simply to widen knowledge and understanding, and whilst also rectifying the many misconceptions and legends of the Bhat Sikh Community"

lol.

WaheGuru, when will people learn.

yeh man when will they learn indeed, we should be folliwing religious tribalism not caste tribalism :roll:

leave londonjatt alone, if he wants to take pride in being a farmer, then so be it, you can't change that mindset, only he can.

when did i say i am proud about farming?