KARBALA: When Skies Wept Blood

[Xylitol]

I believe God exists in all. Yet sharia treats women as if God is only 1/4 present in them. That is not at all divine.

Not all the groups you mention believe in Guru Granth Sahib, hence not all are sikhs. You yourself have made such arguments before... . DDT and nirmala teach the same thing. Nihangs agree on almost all things save some minor details.

[Kam1825]

Bahadur that was not what i menat when posting about the national lottery. just saying that the world is that corrupt take any faith and you will find people who can turn anything sinful into an excuse for it to religious.

It is hypocritical for any individual

[shaheediyan]

"Last year money from the national lottery was paid for a march through many northern cities celebrating the birth of the prophet.

National lottery money was used by the shias in another parade to remember Imam Hussain.

The Naziris and ismailis used national lottery funds for schools and mosques in the midlands."

MLOL. Thanks for pointing this out Kam Ji and delivering a nice square slap on both sides of Bahadurs and his bandwagon collegue's face. Although I am sure their concrete ego will not allow them to concede to even this minor and insiginificant point.

Singho/Bahadur,

As you are both comfortable with talking about deranged, repugnant and revolting real life scenarios and their leniant/casual outcome, I fail to see why you keep avoiding the 2 hypothetical questions put to you?

I would be very interested to here your answers on this very relevant topic.

Singho, your full of excuses and justifications. My point was simply to show your hypocrisy - where as adultry and homosexuality are the most henious crimes punishable by death, which you wholly advocate, I wonder what your work colleagues would think if they knew your views, it just makes me laugh, that someone like you, who could easily end up working for or alongside a homosexual, would be wishing death on the poor chap (chappess) on inside, and smiling politely, shaking hands and interacting in all sorts of civilised/tolerant ways on the outside.

That is hypocrisy.

I have known Muslims as work who curse gays under their breath but smile at them when talking to them, and they seriously made me feel sick.

On the other hand, I have also known many intelligent Muslims (Sunni funnily enough) who genuinely think that some aspects of Sharia need updating/rethinking/reinterpreting, and did not judge anyone regardless of sexuality or anything else.

[golestan]

Be name Khoda

Xylitol wrote:

I believe God exists in all. Yet sharia treats women as if God is only 1/4 present in them. That is not at all divine.

Thanks for sharing your pantheistic beliefs. Now, according to Xylitol, God's presence is measurable.

The Qur'an makes it very clear that men and women, though different are equal in Allah (swt)'s eyes. Differences in shari'a between genders you are relating to deal with the witness issue for inheritance cases as well as the part of the inheritance. Supposing a man dies and he has a son and a daughter, the son will receive two thirds and the girl just one third.What you don't want to see is that the son will be the head of a family and has to spend money for:

- the upkeep of his family. A Muslim man is obliged to provide for his wife even if she is richer than him

- the dowry for his wife

- and other expenses

The girl will keep her inheritance and receive her dowry when she get married. Where is the injustice here?

Just because some Muslims don't apply this doesn't mean shari'a in itself is unfair. Your statement is thus yet again a proof of your ignorance in the matter.

Kam1825 wrote:

Bahadur that was not what i menat when posting about the national lottery. just saying that the world is that corrupt take any faith and you will find people who can turn anything sinful into an excuse for it to religious.

It is hypocritical for any individual

I agree with you on that one.

Shaheediyan wrote:

"Last year money from the national lottery was paid for a march through many northern cities celebrating the birth of the prophet.

National lottery money was used by the shias in another parade to remember Imam Hussain.

The Naziris and ismailis used national lottery funds for schools and mosques in the midlands."

MLOL. Thanks for pointing this out Kam Ji and delivering a nice square slap on both sides of Bahadurs and his bandwagon collegue's face. Although I am sure their concrete ego will not allow them to concede to even this minor and insiginificant point.

Singho/Bahadur,

As you are both comfortable with talking about deranged, repugnant and revolting real life scenarios and their leniant/casual outcome, I fail to see why you keep avoiding the 2 hypothetical questions put to you?

I would be very interested to here your answers on this very relevant topic.

Singho, your full of excuses and justifications. My point was simply to show your hypocrisy - where as adultry and homosexuality are the most henious crimes punishable by death, which you wholly advocate, I wonder what your work colleagues would think if they knew your views, it just makes me laugh, that someone like you, who could easily end up working for or alongside a homosexual, would be wishing death on the poor chap (chappess) on inside, and smiling politely, shaking hands and interacting in all sorts of civilised/tolerant ways on the outside.

That is hypocrisy.

I have known Muslims as work who curse gays under their breath but smile at them when talking to them, and they seriously made me feel sick.

On the other hand, I have also known many intelligent Muslims (Sunni funnily enough) who genuinely think that some aspects of Sharia need updating/rethinking/reinterpreting, and did not judge anyone regardless of sexuality or anything else.

1. How is the use of haram money by Khojas, Pakistani Shi'a and Sunnis a slap for me? I fail to see the point.

2. I am not sure if your personal experiences with Muslims are an argument. Everyone has anecdotes but anecdotes don't make up arguments. What you just said about Muslims could be said about anyone. I know Catholics and Jews who are open about the fact that they are anti-gay and others who think it and smile. I also know Sikhs who are anti-alcohol yet let their friends drink at their wedding. Anecdotes anecdotes...Everyone has a "I know a guy who...." story. It's a story not an argument.

3. There is not a single divinely revealed religion that doesn't consider homosexuality to be a serious sin and a crime. Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Islam do so. Even the Dharma shastras prescribe severe punishments. Just because practicing people of these traditions don't cry or feel guilty at gay propaganda that makes heterosexuals look like fascists doesn't make these religions outdated. Rather it is permissive society that is not up to date with Allah (swt)'s injunctions on this matter.

4. I am not surprised your Sunni friends say that shari'a needs to be updated. They don't have ijtihad as Salahuddin has closed the gates of ijtihad during his reign. The only school of jurisprudence allowing ijtihad is the Shi'a which enables to update the application of the usul e fiqh with the changes in society as long as it doesn't go against the usul e fiqh themselves.There is a growing number of Sunni scholars who call for a return of ijtihad. Tariq Ramadan (Oxford) is one of them and I like his ideas, mind you he'd make a great Shi'a hehe. He has raised the important issue of the application of hudud punishments and the fact that it is most often men who get away with it because it is men who are judges. That is why it is of vital importance to establish justice in the matter and have women judges so as to create a balance which is already happening in Iran.

Imam Khomeini (ra) opened up the door for female scholars and jurists and despite the opposition of teh conservative members of the clergy a growing number of women are now becoming mujtahids and judges. His own grand daughter, Zahra Eshraghi, is a leading feminist, human rights activist and member of the reformist movement. A clear sign that the Islamic Revolution of 1979 was not only aimed at resisting secular Westernisation but also male centered conservatism in the clergy.

kind regards

Bahadur Ali Shah

[shaheediyan]

"1. How is the use of haram money by Khojas, Pakistani Shi'a and Sunnis a slap for me? I fail to see the point."

Lol, so now non-Iranian Shia are somehow inferior and seperate from Iranian Shia, excellent community spirit. You always were a tribalist, somethings never change.

With regards to my "anecdotea", with all due respect, I am sure personal anecdotes form the concrete foundation for the "extreme" legal issues that have been mentioned above with regards to bored academics.

My point was completely relevant - it highlights vulgar pretense and extreme hypocrisy, neither of which are looked upon favourably in true Sikh culture.

In any case, I am still waiting for answers to my 2 hypothetical questions, in your own time.

[singho]

double post

[singho]

I believe God exists in all. Yet sharia treats women as if God is only 1/4 present in them. That is not at all divine.

Important points:

1) YOU are not the arbiter of what is divine or what is not.

2) Islam affords women rights and clearly recognises the different roles played by men and women in society, unlike your religion which apparently just takes the latest guidelines from equality quangos as its guide to what 'equality' is.

e.g. what are the current demographic statistics relating to male and female births in the Punjab, or outside Punjab in the sikh diaspora. The figures reveal the disgusting truth about the way you treat your women. You're having them aborted, killed in their infancy and now you are using gender clinics to weed them out.

Does your 'religion' give women the right to divorce their husbands? Islam does.

Does your 'religion' protect women from false accusations of infidelity? Islam does.

Does your 'religion' afford any property rights whatsoever to women? Islam does.

Let's look at this in a bit more detail, why not? What is a 'sikh wedding' and when and by whom was this ritual invented? Thanks in advance.

Not all the groups you mention believe in Guru Granth Sahib, hence not all are sikhs. You yourself have made such arguments before...

Oh yes and I've been reading this kind of stuff on 'sikh' forums for years. X,Y,Z are not true sikhs, A,B,C are true sikhs. Who knows and more importantly who cares? Do you think the followers of these bizarre sects have any qualms about people on the internet deeming them not to be 'sikh'?

. DDT and nirmala teach the same thing. Nihangs agree on almost all things save some minor details.

What tripe.

[singho]

"Last year money from the national lottery was paid for a march through many northern cities celebrating the birth of the prophet.

National lottery money was used by the shias in another parade to remember Imam Hussain.

The Naziris and ismailis used national lottery funds for schools and mosques in the midlands."

MLOL. Thanks for pointing this out Kam Ji and delivering a nice square slap on both sides of Bahadurs and his bandwagon collegue's face. Although I am sure their concrete ego will not allow them to concede to even this minor and insiginificant point.

What point? The fact that you are an almost completely government- and National Lottery-funded fraudulent astroturfing bandwagon in the UK is not negated in any way by the fact that other organisations professing to represent any other religion also take blood-oil-money from the same sources. It does NOTHING to add to your credibility.

Singho, your full of excuses and justifications. My point was simply to show your hypocrisy - where as adultry and homosexuality are the most henious crimes punishable by death, which you wholly advocate, I wonder what your work colleagues would think if they knew your views, it just makes me laugh, that someone like you, who could easily end up working for or alongside a homosexual, would be wishing death on the poor chap (chappess) on inside, and smiling politely, shaking hands and interacting in all sorts of civilised/tolerant ways on the outside.

Hmmm... So you resort to making up lies to support your hollow clamour. It's not convincing. Neither myself nor golestan have given any fatwas anywhere whether it's about homosexuals or anyone else anywhere. Al-Qu'ran contains the truth and is the last word on all such matters.

While we're on the subject, what does sikh say on the subject of homosexuality? Does it take any position whatsoever or is it a case of British government policy above all else (as usual)? What is the sikh law on what is to be done with homosexuals? If a Conservative government is voted in next time around, will you all harden your stance or will you still be quite gay about it?

[Sukhraj]

a load of typical tonda cr@p

Who cares what mohammed or the quran say? This isn't an islamic forum. You repeatedly insult Guru Ji and still people reply to your trash with courtesy. Try that on an islamic forum.

You want to talk jurisprudence? Come meet me at the Inns Court near Chancery Lane and we'll talk.

Do you get gratification from insulting others? What's the matter, your parents cousins or something?

People like you are the reason for 'islamophobia'. I'd like to see you say the same things face to face rather than from behind a computer screen.

[Mithr]

Bahadur Ali wrote:

"1. How is the use of haram money by Khojas, Pakistani Shi'a and Sunnis a slap for me? I fail to see the point."

So now Khojas(Ismaili Shias), non Irani Shias are not Shias?

[singho]

Who cares what mohammed or the quran say? This isn't an islamic forum. You repeatedly insult Guru Ji and still people reply to your trash with courtesy. Try that on an islamic forum.

YOUR guru, and anyway I don't 'insult' I 'refute'. Does your guru need your sikh empty macho posturing?

You want to talk jurisprudence? Come meet me at the Inns Court near Chancery Lane and we'll talk.

Which of the Inns of Court and is there any particular reason for this location apart from your delusional fantasies? If you have something to say then discuss it here.

Do you get gratification from insulting others?

None of your business. Stick to the topic or clear off with your fake doctrines and good luck to you.

What's the matter, your parents cousins or something?

Did you want me to pass this on to the Bar Council?

People like you are the reason for 'islamophobia'. I'd like to see you say the same things face to face rather than from behind a computer screen.

I am not responsible for your irrational 'phobia' of Islam. If you're suffering from such fear then perhaps you need to look at the gaping lacuna that is sikh jurisprudence and think again. I am not your enemy - your ignorance of Islam is. It is causing you to resort to foolish actions for want of reasonable arguments.

[singho]

Bahadur Ali wrote:

"1. How is the use of haram money by Khojas, Pakistani Shi'a and Sunnis a slap for me? I fail to see the point."

So now Khojas(Ismaili Shias), non Irani Shias are not Shias?

He didn't say that.

The fact that some other Shias of diverse non-Irani origins accept some National Lottery funding doesn't make your own position as a wholly-owned subsidiary of UK plc any stronger.

[amardeep]

rice and curry for everyone, please come and buy,, 5 dolla only

[amardeep]

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[Matheen]

Awsw ]

aasaa ||

Aasaa:

ihMdU qurk khw qy Awey ikin eyh rwh clweI ]

hi(n)dhoo thurak kehaa thae aaeae kin eaeh raah chalaaee ||

Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?

idl mih soic ibcwir kvwdy iBsq dojk ikin pweI ]1]

dhil mehi soch bichaar kavaadhae bhisath dhojak kin paaee ||1||

Think of this, and contemplate it within your mind, O men of evil intentions. Who will go to heaven and hell? ||1||

kwjI qY kvn kqyb bKwnI ]

kaajee thai kavan kathaeb bakhaanee ||

O Qazi, which book have you read?

pVHq gunq AYsy sB mwry iknhUM Kbir n jwnI ]1] rhwau ]

parrhath gunath aisae sabh maarae kinehoo(n) khabar n jaanee ||1|| rehaao ||

Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||

skiq snyhu kir suMniq krIAY mY n bdaugw BweI ]

sakath sanaehu kar su(n)nath kareeai mai n badhougaa bhaaee ||

Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

jau ry Kudwie moih qurku krYgw Awpn hI kit jweI ]2]

jo rae khudhaae mohi thurak karaigaa aapan hee katt jaaee ||2||

If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

suMniq kIey qurku jy hoiegw Aaurq kw ikAw krIAY ]

su(n)nath keeeae thurak jae hoeigaa aourath kaa kiaa kareeai ||

If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ArD srIrI nwir n CofY qw qy ihMdU hI rhIAY ]3]

aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hi(n)dhoo hee reheeai ||3||

She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

Cwif kqyb rwmu Bju baury julm krq hY BwrI ]

shhaadd kathaeb raam bhaj bourae julam karath hai bhaaree ||

Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

kbIrY pkrI tyk rwm kI qurk rhy pichwrI ]4]8]

kabeerai pakaree ttaek raam kee thurak rehae pachihaaree ||4||8||

Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8||

[username]

powerful words.

[shaheediyan]

"What point? The fact that you are an almost completely government- and National Lottery-funded fraudulent astroturfing bandwagon in the UK is not negated in any way by the fact that other organisations professing to represent any other religion also take blood-oil-money from the same sources. It does NOTHING to add to your credibility."

The point was, stop mouthing off and insulting other communities when your own sect is just as guilty of accepting 'haraam'.

In any case, you stupid little rants re lottery funded Gurdwarai are pathetic, if you have so much free time on your hand, try spending it looking into how the nearly all Gurdwarai in the Uk were built before the onset of the lottery and generous Govt cultural/diversity grants. Stop generalising, it's getting boring.

"Hmmm... So you resort to making up lies to support your hollow clamour. It's not convincing. Neither myself nor golestan have given any fatwas anywhere whether it's about homosexuals or anyone else anywhere. Al-Qu'ran contains the truth and is the last word on all such matters."

What lies? Stop making yourself look ridiculous. The point is simply that you are hypocrites, whats so difficult to understand.

1 - Wish and believe all homosexuals should be stoned to death;

2 - Happpy to work alongside them and treat them as equals to earn money.

Pathetic.

"While we're on the subject, what does sikh say on the subject of homosexuality? Does it take any position whatsoever or is it a case of British government policy above all else (as usual)? What is the sikh law on what is to be done with homosexuals? If a Conservative government is voted in next time around, will you all harden your stance or will you still be quite gay about it?""

Thank you imbecile. You prove my point perfectly. Sikhs do live under British Law, without problems on the very large part, the joke is on you, who rants and raves about sharia, and yet chooses to live somewhere where it doesn't and can't operate.

You know vey well Sikhs do not have their own 'man made' legal system that governs every last part of their life (ahhh), we integrate perfectly fine where ever we choose to live, including Islamic countries. It's you who is the looser, who also lives and operates under British law and treates gays as equals, yet still thinks he is better than us with his divine laws which hold absolutely no power in the UK.

Wake up, smell the coffee.

[singho]

"What point? The fact that you are an almost completely government- and National Lottery-funded fraudulent astroturfing bandwagon in the UK is not negated in any way by the fact that other organisations professing to represent any other religion also take blood-oil-money from the same sources. It does NOTHING to add to your credibility."

The point was, stop mouthing off and insulting other communities when your own sect is just as guilty of accepting 'haraam'.

No I shall not stop with this little campaign of mine, rest assured.

I will bring to light the true nature of your hypocrisy. You claim to be a 'community' of 32 million, and yet you're split into a myriad little cults each one of which is at the others' throats, not even accepting them as 'sikh' (whatever that is). Your mysteriously invisible 'community' has only 3 or 4 popular web forums, on which you happen to be a frequent contributor.

You enjoy massive government grants in exchange for complete acceptance of government policy from war in the Middle East to the treatment of homosexuals. When someone shows you up for the fraudulent QUANGO you are, you have the gall to consider yourself their master and shout them down, saying 'how dare you call yourself singho' and generally engaging in a viciously personalised smear campaign.

Let's see....

In any case, you stupid little rants re lottery funded Gurdwarai are pathetic, if you have so much free time on your hand, try spending it looking into how the nearly all Gurdwarai in the Uk were built before the onset of the lottery and generous Govt cultural/diversity grants.

Most of the gurdwaras in the UK are dependant on government grants and National Lottery. You take their money and you push your fake agenda under the cover of 'religion'.

However, it doesn't stop there, does it?? Don't you also have your little training camps and organisations that preach hatred, violence and the acceptance of rape of Muslim women, 'teaching' this sick doctrine free of charge? FREE because it's funded by the blood-oil-money of the British government.

Not just this, but 'Raj' organisations indoctrinating your youth in the ways of creating a viable sikh government, again funded by you-know-you in support of the Foreign Office's long-term campaign to destabilise the Punjab region and undermine the integrity of India.

Stop generalising, it's getting boring.

Stop creating terrorists and I'll stop showing up the holes in your boat.

"Hmmm... So you resort to making up lies to support your hollow clamour. It's not convincing. Neither myself nor golestan have given any fatwas anywhere whether it's about homosexuals or anyone else anywhere. Al-Qu'ran contains the truth and is the last word on all such matters."

What lies? Stop making yourself look ridiculous. The point is simply that you are hypocrites, whats so difficult to understand.

1 - Wish and believe all homosexuals should be stoned to death;

2 - Happpy to work alongside them and treat them as equals to earn money.

OK, so if you're not a liar then you tell me where did golestan or myself criticise the homosexuals?

Pathetic.

<Yawn>

"While we're on the subject, what does sikh say on the subject of homosexuality? Does it take any position whatsoever or is it a case of British government policy above all else (as usual)? What is the sikh law on what is to be done with homosexuals? If a Conservative government is voted in next time around, will you all harden your stance or will you still be quite gay about it?""

Thank you imbecile. You prove my point perfectly. Sikhs do live under British Law, without problems on the very large part, the joke is on you, who rants and raves about sharia, and yet chooses to live somewhere where it doesn't and can't operate.

You know vey well Sikhs do not have their own 'man made' legal system that governs every last part of their life (ahhh), we integrate perfectly fine where ever we choose to live, including Islamic countries. It's you who is the looser, who also lives and operates under British law and treates gays as equals, yet still thinks he is better than us with his divine laws which hold absolutely no power in the UK.

1) Sharia law applies to all mankind and who does not accept is in defiance.

2) You're simply affirming my point that 'sikh' is really just an umbrella term used by the British government to mean someone who is docile and compliant to all policies of their white British imperial masters and at the same time like a faithful kuttah barking at the Muslim trying to explain the many deficiencies in your creed.

[Matheen]

Do you have ANY proof of all the pakwas you're barking on about? Or is it, like everything else you say, coming out of your arse?

You have a nerve talking about terrorists. LOL!!

Why do you choose to stay in the UK and subject yourself to British law when you could live in Iran?

What hypocrisy!

[singho]

Do you have ANY proof of all the pakwas you're barking on about?

Of course. This stuff is not secret despite that you probably wish it was. There is one organisation that trains sikhs around the UK once a week in how to stab, maim, hate Muslims, rape Muslim women with a boar's tooth and crap like that. We both know the organisation I'm referring to here. It is funded through a single organisation which is registered as a charity through the Charity Commission (for taxation purposes).

All charity accounts are open meaning open books which any member of the public can check, and it just so happens that this malignant little cancer of a 'charity' is to all extents and purposes ENTIRELY funded by way of National Lottery and government grants.

The other organisation which indoctrinates little khalistanis I mentioned almost by name in my post and is familiar to most UK sikhs. Again, a registered charity with open accounts visible by members of the public.

In both cases, you or any other UK-based individual is capable of checking the "charity's" accounts.

Why do you choose to stay in the UK and subject yourself to British law when you could live in Iran?

Mind your own business.

[Sukhraj]

Of course. This stuff is not secret despite that you probably wish it was. There is one organisation that trains sikhs around the UK once a week in how to stab, maim, hate Muslims, rape Muslim women with a boar's tooth and crap like that. We both know the organisation I'm referring to here.

I'm no fan of Niddar's, but I do know there are some muslims who attend his classes. Have you been to a class, or is golestan's word now gospel?

The same golestani advertised the classes on shiachat.com some time ago - check for yourself.

Kind Regards.

[singho]

I'm no fan of Niddar's,

Sure, whatever.

but I do know there are some muslims who attend his classes. Have you been to a class, or is golestan's word now gospel?

As I mentioned, the classes are funded by a charity, which receives practically all its money from National Lottery fund and government grants. Have you checked these accounts? They are open to inspection.

The same golestani advertised the classes on shiachat.com some time ago - check for yourself.

A little bit of research is all it takes to change someone's mind about this UK government front organisation. Why is the UK government funding martial arts training and anti-Muslim indoctrination for sikhs? Whatever the reason, it is distinctly unsavoury and highly questionable when these people turn up having formed criminal gangs and violently anti-Muslim and pro-Khalistan gangs such as Shere Punjab in the areas where the classes take place.

Furthermore it's interesting the way that whenever someone raises a question about these so-called 'classes' on any internet forum, someone who recently signed up comes in and says:

1) he's no fan of Niddar's (bringing personalities into the debate); and

2) has the questioner ever been to any such classes?

So tell me does this fellow advertise the accounts of his sponsor and his UK government controller to his students at his classes?

[ishvar2]

What is the price of defiance, Singho Ji?

What does Shariah say about those who do defy it's authority? How are they to be treated?

While I have no doubt there is at least some truth in your rants, I feel more sure you hate Sikhs. I hope this is not the case because the same reasons why one would hate a 'Muslim' are the same reasons one would hate a 'Sikh' - arrogance, petulance, hypocrisy, anger, ignorance etc. When you and other posters generalise by the faith group we are no better than each other. I like to treat people as individuals as far as possible.

I personally think where as the Gurus (regardless of whether you respect them or not) and the Prophets and Sages of various faiths were living examples of God's virtues we all show how petulant we are as inheriters of their tradition. Shame on us all. God is great, we are not.

Vaheguru di kirpa de naal we'll address the lacuna if needs be.

[Xylitol]

-----

As for your comments on Niddar, all communities have their black sheep. His views, as I understand them from his website and from what singh's I know who have discussed with him have told me, are not in line with the views of Buddha dal or the vast majority of sikhs on many points. It's very easy to point to black sheep and use them to paint an entire community that way. for example, check out this little gem:

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read...7A-F9617796AB95

The Mufti of Australia, Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali, has gained international attention this week by saying that women are generally at fault if they are raped. Speaking to a Muslim audience in Sydney, he explained that rape (specifically, zina, sexual activity forbidden under Islamic law -- a word mistranslated in published accounts of the Sheikh’s words as “adultery”) is “90 percent the woman’s responsibility. Why? Because a woman owns the weapon of seduction. It’s she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It’s she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then, it’s a look, a smile, a conversation, a greeting, a talk, a date, a meeting, a crime, then Long Bay jail. Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years.”

Al-Hilali invoked another Islamic scholar in support of his views: “But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, writer al-Rafee says, if I came across a rape crime, I would discipline the man and order that the woman be jailed for life. Why would you do this, Rafee? He said because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it. If you get a kilo of meat, and you don’t put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you’re crazy. Isn’t this true? If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park, or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, then whose fault will it be, the cats, or the uncovered meat’s? The uncovered meat is the disaster. If the meat was covered the cats wouldn’t roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won’t get it. If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she’s wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don’t happen.”

-----------------

Singho Why are rape victims punished by Islamic courts as adulterers?

Summary Answer: (taken from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/00...e_adultery.htm)

Under Islamic law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses. Women who allege rape, without the benefit of the act having been witnessed by four men who subsequently develop a conscience, are actually confessing to having sex. If they or the accused happens to be married, then it is considered to be adultery.

The Qur'an:

Sura 2:282 - Establishes that a woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man's in court (there is no "he said/she said" gridlock in Islam).

Sura (24:4) - "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses (to adultery), flog them..."

Sura (24:13) - "Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah."

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (5:59:462) - The background for the Qur'anic requirement of four witnesses to adultery. Muhammad's favorite wife, Aisha, was accused of cheating. Three witnesses corroborated the event, but Muhammad did not want to believe it, and so established the arbitrary rule that four witnesses are required.

why is the testimony of 2 women required to replace one man's for a business transaction: Surah 2:282 regarding contracts of debts:

“…And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available)

then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her…. �

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Of course rape of women is condemned in Islam. But the requirements in Sharia make it very difficult for rape victims to prosecute their attackers. This is an example of why I disagree with sharia. It completely goes against the notion of God's light existing in all humans. God's light doesn't shine half as bright in those of lower caste, nor does it exist at half strength iin women.

In the end singho, you're going to keep believing what your murshid does, and the rest of us will not end up believing in sharia. I feel you have made no viable points. You feel otherwise This has become a fruitless debate with a lot of games being played rather than anything resembling a search for truth.

No doubt you're not going to believe me when I say this, but I do respect Islam and Quran. I don't agree with all of it, but respect it. But I think a lot of sharia is very very wrong, and that for me is an understated expression.

[Xylitol]

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As for your comments on Niddar, all communities have their black sheep. His views, as I understand them from his website and from what singh's I know who have discussed with him have told me, are not in line with the views of Buddha dal or the vast majority of sikhs on many points. It's very easy to point to black sheep and use them to paint an entire community that way. for example, check out this little gem:

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read...7A-F9617796AB95

The Mufti of Australia, Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali, has gained international attention this week by saying that women are generally at fault if they are raped. Speaking to a Muslim audience in Sydney, he explained that rape (specifically, zina, sexual activity forbidden under Islamic law -- a word mistranslated in published accounts of the Sheikh’s words as “adultery”) is “90 percent the woman’s responsibility. Why? Because a woman owns the weapon of seduction. It’s she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It’s she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then, it’s a look, a smile, a conversation, a greeting, a talk, a date, a meeting, a crime, then Long Bay jail. Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years.”

Al-Hilali invoked another Islamic scholar in support of his views: “But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, writer al-Rafee says, if I came across a rape crime, I would discipline the man and order that the woman be jailed for life. Why would you do this, Rafee? He said because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it. If you get a kilo of meat, and you don’t put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you’re crazy. Isn’t this true? If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park, or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, then whose fault will it be, the cats, or the uncovered meat’s? The uncovered meat is the disaster. If the meat was covered the cats wouldn’t roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won’t get it. If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she’s wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don’t happen.”

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Singho Why are rape victims punished by Islamic courts as adulterers?

Summary Answer: (taken from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/00...e_adultery.htm)

Under Islamic law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses. Women who allege rape, without the benefit of the act having been witnessed by four men who subsequently develop a conscience, are actually confessing to having sex. If they or the accused happens to be married, then it is considered to be adultery.

The Qur'an:

Sura 2:282 - Establishes that a woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man's in court (there is no "he said/she said" gridlock in Islam).

Sura (24:4) - "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses (to adultery), flog them..."

Sura (24:13) - "Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah."

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (5:59:462) - The background for the Qur'anic requirement of four witnesses to adultery. Muhammad's favorite wife, Aisha, was accused of cheating. Three witnesses corroborated the event, but Muhammad did not want to believe it, and so established the arbitrary rule that four witnesses are required.

why is the testimony of 2 women required to replace one man's for a business transaction: Surah 2:282 regarding contracts of debts:

“…And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available)

then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her…. �

---

Of course rape of women is condemned in Islam. But the requirements in Sharia make it very difficult for rape victims to prosecute their attackers. This is an example of why I disagree with sharia. It completely goes against the notion of God's light existing in all humans. God's light doesn't shine half as bright in those of lower caste, nor does it exist at half strength iin women.

In the end singho, you're going to keep believing what your murshid does, and the rest of us will not end up believing in sharia. I feel you have made no viable points. You feel otherwise This has become a fruitless debate with a lot of games being played rather than anything resembling a search for truth.

No doubt you're not going to believe me when I say this, but I do respect Islam and Quran. I don't agree with all of it, but respect it. But I think a lot of sharia is very very wrong, and that for me is an understated expression.