lord shiva and god

[Nayan]

greetings all,

i have a question that is sitting on my mind. Lord Shiva, is he a manifestation of the Lord? I do my Japji sahib in the morning and do my shiv pooja their after, would i be doing anything wrong?. The reason i ask, i have a great pulling sensation to bani. when i do my Japji, i get a very relaxing feeling in my stomach and i want to do more. the other day, i was was doing my japji sahib and i felt like crying, but at the same time i felt shaant! I was driving my car and someone bumped into the back of me, denting my bumper. In a normal situation, i would have gone balistic. But, i was calm, couldnt find room in my soul for anger, i was just 'its ok, mistakes happen'. Just thought id let you know the power of bani.

[amardeep]

are you a hindu by birth? i dont think there is anything wrong in "mixing" the two if youre a sehajdhari sikh.

i do think Shivji is a manifestation of the Lord as is Guru Nanak, Krishna, Ram, Guru Gobind Singh etc

[shaheediyan]

Where as Sri Ram Chander, Sri Krishna Ji and Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj were Sargun manifestations of God, the trinity - Vishnu, Brahma & Shiva/Parvati are seen to be 3 aspects of God's personality, rather than actual historic beings in human form.

These 3 aspects of God/nature can be seen all around us and are contained within all of us to a differing degree and mix.

Personally, I don't see the point praying to one aspect when you can pray to all 3 (Parm-atma).

The meaning of Ek Ong-kaar also promotes this position (IMHO).

[Matheen]

It's good you're doing JapJi Sahib, I would suggest listening to Katha of Jap Ji Sahib as well so you get to know what you're reading.

The first line tells us "Ik Oankaar....." so that in itself should teach you something.

The "Eka Mai, Jugat Viaai" paurri tells us about Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and their role.

Guru Sahib states "Aades, Thisey Aades - Aad Aneel Anad Anahat Jug Jug Eko Ves" (I salute only the Primal, Pure, without beginning, without end, unchanging through the ages)

This would imply to me that there is no point worshipping any avtar, just the unchanging Waheguru /God etc.

In fact, every Ang of Guru Sahib tells us this. So yes, IMHO, you are doing something wrong because Guru Nanak Sahib Ji is telling you one thing, but immediately after reading it, you do something else.

I think the fact you asked the question shows that in your heart, you can feel this.

[chatanga1]

are you a hindu by birth? i dont think there is anything wrong in "mixing" the two if youre a sehajdhari sikh.

i do think Shivji is a manifestation of the Lord as is Guru Nanak, Krishna, Ram, Guru Gobind Singh etc

are we all not manifestations of the lord?

isnt the whole parkriti a manfestation of the world?

why are sehajdharis allowed to mix it up but not kesadharis or amritdharis?

[Nayan]

thank you for all your support!

the reason i ask is 3 years ago i had started doing shiv pooja. A while a go i had a dream of baba nanak. I have a picture of him and the dream was like this;

I was sitting infront of my photo of baba nanak and out of the photo his hand came out and did a circular motion, as if he was giving a blessing. Here, i presumed that he was happy with what i was doing, this is why i carried on doing my shivaji pooja. am i presuming correctly?

again, thanks for all your support and guidance

[Matheen]

Nayan, I'm assuming you are Hindu?

Ask yourself if Guru Ji would teach you one thing and still be happy if you did something contrary to their teachings?

There are many reasons why we dream what we do but most of the time they are just that - dreams i.e. illusions.

It is important to make an effort to understand what Gurbani tells us, just reading or hearing is not enough.

Bear in mind that if you have one foot in one boat, and your other foot in another boat, you are likely to fall off and drown. You must choose your path and stick to it or you won't be able to get to the stage of "Ik Munn, Ik Chit" that is necessary for your Paath/Pooja to bear fruit.

[Silence]

gurbani teaches against worshipping shiva, ram and krishan or any gods. Worship only the one true lord, Vaheguru as explained in mool mantar.

Chaupai Sahib says that people are foolish for thinking that shiva and Vaheguru are the same (not calling you foolish).

Guru Nanak Dev Ji is NOT the same as Krishna or ram or any thing else. Guru Nanak Dev Ji is Nirankaar, i.e. Vaheguru/God.

Vishnu is a creation of god, as are Shiva and Brahma.

worship the creator is what gurbani tells us, worship of the creation (like these gods) leads only to more entanglements.

Sikhi is about merger with Vaheguru and this can only be accomplished by becoming pleasing to him through worshipping him alone and with all your heart. Worshiping gods like Shiva are only karma and give you wordly rewards of maya only, leading to further births and deaths, taking you further away from Vaheguru.

[Mithr]

May Shiv Shankar bless you Nayan. You are on the right path. You are so blessed that you have had Guru Nanak Dev jee in your dream. I wish I was as lucky as you. Also, may I suggest you also start doing Naam Jappa (repitative recitation) of Mul Mantra, or some Kirtam Naam.

[Matheen]

Mithr, how can you tell him he's on the right path? You're misleading him.

It's kinder to tell the truth than to give false hopes.

What he's doing is wrong, according to Gurbani.

[mit]

in the Bramh Kavach, Chandi Charitra, chandi di vaar, was there not mantras that were related to Maha Kali, Chandi Etc? eventhough god was being praised in them aswell?

[Matheen]

Mit - I haven't read Brahm Kavach, or found it in Sri Dasam Granth Ji (if you have the Ang no., let me know). As for every other Bani you mention, Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes it very clear in the first lines / opening managalacharans that only the 1 Akaal Purkh/ Waheguru etc is being worshipped. All the Bani that follows has to be interpreted with that in mind. Just as all Bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji has to be interpreted keeping Mool Mantar in mind.

The first Paurri of Jaap Sahib is very clear about this and to clear all doubts, Guru Ji wrote: "Aad Ant Eke Avtaara, Soi Guru Samjhiyo Hamaara".

If you read the first post of the thread, Nayan says he reads JapJi Sahib, which tells us that Shiva is Akaal Purkh's chela and then proceeds to worship the aforementioned chela rather than Akal Purkh. Gurbani also metions that there have been 1000s of Krishnas, Brahmas, etc through the ages, and that Devte themselves long for a human birth so they can use it to become 1 with Waheguru. In that case, why worship them - if they couldn't save themselves, how will they save you?

[amardeep]

i dont think it is as simple as you make it out to be veerji matheen.

worshipping the avatars is acceptable as so far as remembering that these are only the manifested aspect of God. What Gurbani is critisising is the confusion in making the avatars God themselves, hereby limiting God to a psychical human being.

Guru Bhagti is to be found in many orders within Sikhism,

Page 973, Line 16

ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥

जसरथ राइ नंदु राजा मेरा राम चंदु प्रणवै नामा ततु रसु अम्रितु पीजै ॥४॥४॥

Jasrath rā­ė nanḏ rājā mėrā rām cẖanḏ paraṇvai nāmā ṯaṯ ras amriṯ pījai. ||4||4||

My Sovereign Lord King is Raam Chandra, the Son of the King Dasrat'h; prays Naam Dayv, I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||4||4||

Devotee Namdev

[chatanga1]

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1697

mÚ 1 ]

ma 1 ||

First Mehla:

nwnk inrBau inrMkwru hoir kyqy rwm rvwl ]

naanak nirabho nira(n)kaar hor kaethae raam ravaal ||

O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.

kyqIAw kMn@ khwxIAw kyqy byd bIcwr ]

kaetheeaa ka(n)nh kehaaneeaa kaethae baedh beechaar ||

There are so many stories of Krishna, so many who reflect over the Vedas.

[chatanga1]

ik®snu blBdRü gur pg lig iDAwvY ]

kirasan balabhadhra gur pag lag dhhiaavai ||

Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet.

nwnk gurmuiK hir Awip qrwvY ]4]5]43]

naanak guramukh har aap tharaavai ||4||5||43||

O Nanak, the Lord Himself saves the Gurmukhs. ||4||5||43||

[chatanga1]

amardeep its very simple. avtars can be worshipped as an aspect of God as they were created by God. But then again so was the Sun, and we know the story of Guru Ji at Hardwar. There are mnay countless other sakhis where Guru has said that Akal Purkh alone is to be worshipped, not the Illusion which hew has created.

so to me its very simple.

[chatanga1]

and i know what you are all thinking... why didnt he get all that in 1 post.

sorry.

[amardeep]

its not that simple..

perhabs tsingh can expand further on this subject.

[chatanga1]

why complicate sumthing so simple?

why look for a drama where there is none?

and amardeep, youstill havent answered 3 questions that i asked on the preivious page. plesae oblige me.

[Matheen]

What could be simpler? It's us who complicate things.

"Ik Oankaar, Satnaam, Karta Purakh, Nirbhao, Nirvair, Akaal Moorat, Ajooni, Saebhan, Gurparsad. Jap. Aad Sach, Jugaad Sach, Hai Bhi Sach, Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach."

Anything that doesn't fulfill that criteria is maya. No ifs and buts.

[unbreakable]

..

[Matheen]

Unbreakable, if you read the whole shabad (Ang 973), it will be clearer. There is no contradiction - just that the translation is a bit off. Listen to the katha of it if you can.

The point is to follow the Bachan /teaching of YOUR Guru, which all the Bhagats did. There was no mix and match of different teachings. Once you accept someone as your Guru you do what he says, not what some other person says.

[unbreakable]

..

[Matheen]

Unbreakable, go to: http://damdamitaksaal.net/index.php?option...r&Itemid=75

Ang 973, about 16 mins into the Katha. Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji explains what Bhagat Namdev Ji is saying.

[chatanga1]

thanks for that link matheen. im gonna czech it out as well.