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~Methodology framework in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji~

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VahiguroojikakhalsaVahiguroojikifateh Ji,

This thread will give further structure of methodology framework in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. After watching discussions on forums and taking notes of many debates/discussions of both pro and against stance on sri dasam granth sahib ji videos on youtube, forum discussions and sri dasam granth sahib ji websites I came to an opnion (which surely should be corrected by learned gursikhs if my opinions are wrong) that more and more debate of sri dasam granth sahib happening these days are based on two mindset.

First mindset believes in certain compositions in sri dasam granth sahib ji cannot be included by sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj because its not mukhvak patsah dasvein (dhur ki bani). They claim according to their own mat(dangerous mindset) that sri guru gobind singh ji would never include banis which are just tales of demon yudh, men and women.

Second mindset believes in giving an knee jerk response to the people who have first mindset that certain banis like chaubis avtar, chandi di var, treh charitar are mukhvak of patsah dasvein (dhur ki bani) in lack of understanding. People who belong to second mindset are definitely not in majority but lately these are observations i came across from youtube videos, forum discussions etc.

I personally don't have iota of knowledge in sri dasam granth sahib...with that mentality, I went to an learned gyani ji who spent 14+ years of learning not just sikh scriptures, historical granths but other dharamic granths as well from various puratan samparda's. I shared my opinion with him. He shared his sentiments with me which were same, how both pro and anti dasam granth campaign have seem to go around in circles and in circles because of lack of understanding of "methodological framework in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji'.

Allow me to share some important methodological framework with examples in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji which was shared by gyani ji-

1. Dhur Ki Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - This rachna is Dhur Ki bani is the banis came from core heart of dasam guru maharaj or came from full anubhav parkash of sri dasam guru maharaj. For eg.. Banis like- Jaap Sahib, Sri Akaal Ustat, Shabad Hazaare, Gyan parbodh, Bachitar Natak.

2. Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji- This type of rachna is translations of previous compositions written by many tapavasi rishi, munis which in this care were translated by sri dasam patsah. For example- It's well known fact with in academics 405 tales in treh charitar are translated from previous various compositions, one granth being panch tantar, its also well known fact within in academics that many avtars from Chaubis Avtars compositions are directly translated by sri dasam patsah from Sri Bhagvad, Vishnu Puran.

3. Gur Asa Misrat Anubhadith Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji- This type of rachna means where one explain his/her own stance/beleif/thoughts/sidhant before compositions being translated kinda like commentary. In Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, sri guru gobind singh ji had this type of rachna as well, specifically in sri dasam granth sahib for example- composition named chandi di var reflects this type of rachna. If one studies chandi di var- sri guru gobind singh ji has given gurmat sidhant in the first(bhaugati ki var) and second pauri of chandi di var. Both pauries is Salutations (Namaskar) to Sri Akaal Purkh. Then if one looks at the third pauri, its preface of chandi di var. Finally then fourth pauri of Chandi Di Var is composition directly translated in punjabi taken from 757 stanza of source "Markandai Puran" all the way to last stanza of markandai puratan.

Both the mindset (one being pro and other being against sri dasam granth sahib) have couple of things in common, they are both on one extreme or another. If on one is sitting on extreme of rejection, insecurity, hindu paranoia, ignorance then other is sitting on extreme of deception, insecurities, shying away from facts because of their personal hindu paranoia that they would end up judging guru's mat by their own one line translations without studying any theological/methodological frame work, socio-religious, figures and movement contexts. Their dangerous mindsets are very very common.. it's just one is anti dasam granth sahib by using that mindset, and other using the same mindset is pro sri dasam granth sahib ji.

Anyway, thats it from me.

just a reminder : Don't shoot the messenger please...:roll: Please discuss the message. :D

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I beileve that Guru ji has provided all kinds of knowledge in Dasam Granth Ji which include the lives of the avatars, the tales teaching us about many important things and things are useful in our daily lives .

What can we say in praise of Guru Gobind Singh Ji ? We cannot even come close to praising Him. And we talk about analysing His Bani ?

How can we understand Dhur Ki Bani by Dasam Pitah Ji ?

If we really want to learn we need to have an open mind and let go of our ego and previous biases.

I think it can be understood only through the grace of Guru Ji himself. We can only learn from the anubhav of Kamai wale mahapurash.

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Agree with you 100% regarding the mindset thing. Its something I have spoken to sampradai scholars about, its the modern day intelectuals who are leading the pro dasam bani camp despite managing to rally sampradai scholars. I expressed my concerns to some of the sampradai scholars most involved in the pro dasam bani campaign, and they agreed that sometimes academics outwith of sampradava speaking in favour of dasam maharaj lead to more confusion. There have been scholars in past decades from various universities who have written beautifully on the subject. Others just havent been blessed with grasping the complete philosophy., despite knowing the history of dasam bani inside out.

A few of the thing I raised with the sampradai vidhvans:

- Comments by Dr Harpal Singh Pannu on a tv show speaking in favour of Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib being the bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji but then going on to say it should be parkash in a seperate room from Sri Guru Adi Granth Sahib Ji. Despite, historical evidence suggesting both granths were parkash along side one another. Such comments create further confusion... All of its bani but not Gurbani...???

- The way some academics like to propogate Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jis rejection of avtars without explaining their significance. Its like saying "Dont worry, we can make this fit your mindset so that you can believe its written by your Guru". Maharaj certainly advocates the worship of Ik-Onkar only, but to simply prepare articles with copy and pasted lines apparently 'cussing' avtars does not do any justice to the masses of writings maharaj wrote regarding the topic of avtarvaad. Understandable that all use the line 'Mai Na Genesai Pritham Manao, Kisan Bisan Kabhoo Nai Dhayaoo', to counter the petty arguement and prove the point such writings could not have been written by a 'Hindu' in a most basic manner for the masses to understand. But if one is going to go to the effort of preparing an article, instead of writing on the 'rejection' of avtaarvad why not clarify the whole topic by writing on the concept of avtarvaad?

- The translations academics have made on dasam bani, good effort by them but as one of the 5 Sahiban said to me regarding one of the translators..."If he did not understand he should have asked, he should have had someone check....instead he has misunderstood and mistranslated a lot of important stuff". It is believing ones own mat is adequate to understand it, that grasping the language means you will grasp the philosophy... unfortunately it doesnt usually work like that.

Many other small things as well, the last paragraph of Neos post pretty much sums up the situation. Whats point does it prove: Those who want to study gurbani should do so from an ustad with some sort of traceable lineage to Sikhs who learnt Gurbani and Arth from Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. There are many such taksals all over India be the Sevapanthi, Taksali, Nihang, Nirmale akhara, many other mahapursh etc... and their students are in most western countries... If your gonna learn path its the best place to start. May maharaj do kirpa.

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Great analysis. When I was reading Harbanse Singh Jee's book, he said things along the lines of what you have said too. While parts of Dasam Bani are Dhur Ki Bani, other banis are written by Dasam Patshah as a schollar. It's unfortunate that small minded people cannot grasp this simple truth and end up missing out on a huge part of Sikhi.

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