a requested clarification about Gurmat

[amardeep]

Well who said that Sikhi is a simple path? its a straight forward path in the sense that there are no "time wasting "rituals connected, but its philosophy is deep and goes back thousands of years... We have had great mahapursh in hinduism who have written about this philosophy so why not read this litterature to understand it better? Try to read the Bhagavad Gita (you can borrow it from any library) and tell me if it has not enlightened you and given you a deeper understanding of Gurbani

[shaheediyan]

Gurbani is not one dimensional.

It was created for a universal audience - not every poor farmer, blacksmith, leatherworker, cleaner etc had time, resource, education, economic stability or education to learn so much.

That is what travelling Sant, Mahapursh,Parchaarak, Vidvaan, Gyaanis etc are for - to come to your pind and teach and explain the finer points.

Gurbani is perfect - one vaak can answer the benti of a sangat of 100,000 - all of whom are from different backgrounds and have different problems. It can be understood by simpletons and academics alike and satisfy the intellect, desire and need of both.

The core and important essence is simple to understand - naam simran, kirtan, bhagati.... - but those who are able to and have a desire for a deeper knowledge - can obviously learn 1st hand what the many snaatan/semetic references are refering to - and this would enhance their appreciation of Guru Ji's bani and it's meaning/context.

Obvioulsy if one listens to kathaa as they are supposed, many of the references and sources of those references will be explained and therefore understood. One doesn't need to do a PHD in all these subjects, but simply (at the least) listen to those

regularly that have!

[amardeep]

nice post shahediyan ji. I think this is what the four samprdayas were created for... To have these "speciel forces" in sikhism, the ones who have specialised themselves into different areas so that they can spread this vidiya to others who dont have the time to do this reading etc

[unbreakable]

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[amardeep]

I think it is possible to understand Gurmat through Gurbani alone, but it will be easier to make use of other scriptures along the way... and since its easier, its more practical.. As far as i recall Dr. Sahib Singh did a complete commentary of Guru Granth Sahib using Gurbani only

[unbreakable]

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[amardeep]

According to the research i have done on Sikhi, then Gurmat has existed for thousands of years before the coming of Guru Nanak.

It depends on how people are. Some people gain their understanding of Sikhi through singing kirtan and doing simran, while others have an academical way towards this understanding.. i belong to the latter one as im not that familiar and good with with spiritualism.

Gurbani does not narrate its philosophy in one go. You have to put it together by reading one hymn here and one hymn there and add it together. Bhagavad Gita on the other hand is a question and answer session and the philosophy is narrated in cronical order which makes it easier to understand. You can not just read one hymn of Gurbani and say things are like this, because there might be another shabad 200 pages after that narrows or limits this interpretation you have just gotten..

So for me, unless i read the whole of Guru Granth Sahib, and then put it togheter like a puzzle, i would say its easier for me to gain understanding of Gurmat through the Gita and other such books... does it make any sense ?

[jsingh96]

I learn so much from TSingh Jee's posts. I think we are blessed to have such a member in our forum here. I'm really looking forward to reading his books.

agreed, can't wait for bibeksar

[unbreakable]

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[amardeep]

Sikhism is the dharam of Kalyuga as stated in Gurbani, thats why.

Your way of asking the question "Can you understand Gurmat using Gurbani alone. Yes or No? " is wrongly put as im getting locked into either a yes or no.

If you only stick to Guru Granth Sahib, then how will you know the names of the 10 Gurus? If you only stick to Guru Granth Sahib, then how will you know what banis to read in the morning? If you only stick to Guru Granth Sahib, then how will you know what rehit to follow?

[shaheediyan]

"Some people gain their understanding of Sikhi through singing kirtan and doing simran, while others have an academical way towards this understanding.. i belong to the latter one as im not that familiar and good with with spiritualism."

Just a small point - Sikhi cannot be understood unless it is experienced. Sikhi cannot be experienced academically alone - as may be the case mainstream versions of other faiths.

Sikhi is a mystical path - it is an inward journey 1st and foremost - and it is from this journey that one understands Sikhi - there are hundreds of references from Gurbani that say as such. Kirtan and Simran are not options - they are mandatory:

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਗਾਈ ਕਰਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਮਗੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਲ ਜਿਤੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੮॥

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹੀਐ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਹੋਆ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਰਸਨ ਰਮੋਰੀ ॥੩॥

[Silence]

double post

[Silence]

LOL, do you realise what you guys are saying? How on earth can Gurmat exist before a Guru???? loool. Anyway, there is no such thing as a "before Guru Nanak Dev Ji", Guru Nanak Dev Ji is aad jugaad, the eternal Guru. Saying before Guru Nanak dev ji is like saying before Vaheguru!

Lets disect what the word itself, Gurmat means. It means the mat of the Guru. It's kind of obvious therefore that that which has not come from Guru Sahib is obviously not Gurmat, but the mat of whatever source it has come from. Simply put Gurmat is Gurbani as this is the mukhvaak of the Guru, and the vedas are, well, Vedmat. It's that simple.

Sikhism is the dharam of Kalyuga as stated in Gurbani, thats why.

Your way of asking the question "Can you understand Gurmat using Gurbani alone. Yes or No? " is wrongly put as im getting locked into either a yes or no.

If you only stick to Guru Granth Sahib, then how will you know the names of the 10 Gurus? If you only stick to Guru Granth Sahib, then how will you know what banis to read in the morning? If you only stick to Guru Granth Sahib, then how will you know what rehit to follow?

Sikhi is infact the dharam of ALL FOUR AGES, as stated in Gurbani.

You understand Gurmat using Guru's mat, Guru's mat is in Gurbani and all things created by Guru Sahib, i.e. khalsa panth and the panj pyare. Guru is Guru Granth and Guru Panth, what these two say is Gurmat, nothing else, as nothing else is the Guru. All those things you mentioned are found from Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Guru Panth.

Anyway have you read what Guru Sahib has said about vedas and katebas in Bachitar Natak sahib?

[Matheen]

According to the research i have done on Sikhi, then Gurmat has existed for thousands of years before the coming of Guru Nanak.

Who is your Guru? Gurmat was revealed by Guru Ji, how can it have been known before. If it was then why did Guru Ji come? There may be similarities with other religions but Gurmat is unique.

............, while others have an academical way towards this understanding.. i belong to the latter one as im not that familiar and good with with spiritualism.

Veer Ji, please refer to Gurbani. Mere understanding or knowledge is not enough or even necessary. Our duty is to DO what Guru Ji tells us, not just to read their teachings. Without Simran, all else is useless.

Gurbani does not narrate its philosophy in one go. You have to put it together by reading one hymn here and one hymn there and add it together. Bhagavad Gita on the other hand is a question and answer session and the philosophy is narrated in cronical order which makes it easier to understand. You can not just read one hymn of Gurbani and say things are like this, because there might be another shabad 200 pages after that narrows or limits this interpretation you have just gotten..

Don't you have faith in your Guru?! Guru Ji is not a book and are pooran - complete. All you need for Mukti is there.

People like Kam have spent ages putting up Katha on the internet that was previously very hard to obtain. If you don't understand then listen to Katha which will explain it for you.

So for me, unless i read the whole of Guru Granth Sahib, and then put it togheter like a puzzle, i would say its easier for me to gain understanding of Gurmat through the Gita and other such books... does it make any sense ?

Guru Ji says: "SAGAL DUAR KO CHHAD KE........" Read and memorise all the religious texts of the world and you still won't get anywhere without faith in 1 Guru. In fact, with your feet in 2 boats, you will drown.

Guru Ji has strong words for those who beg from door to door rather than stay in their master's house. Such people are said to be no better than dogs.

What Gurmat is there in the Gita? Seriously Veer ji, go back to basics and just look at the 5 Banis we read in the morning - all the points you've raised in this thread are answered or countered.

[unbreakable]

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[amardeep]

and then there is another one criticising those who have abandoned the Bible and Quran(Katebs)

Page 1161, Line 8

ਛੋਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਰੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ॥

छोडि कतेब करै सैतानी ॥

Cẖẖod kaṯėb karai saiṯānī.

They have forsaken their Bible, and practice Satanic evil.

im not saying that Gurbani contradicts itself, im just saying that Gurbani does not explains its philosophy in a cronical order, so you can not read 1 or 2 pages and belive you have understood the concept, as another page may say something to add on what has already been said. The Gita for instance is in cronical order, so you can read one chapter and then you "know about reincarnation" .

If you believe that Guru Granth Sahib explains concepts that were already known to the people of india at the time then by all means pleaase explain the concept of Nirgun/sargun and reincarnation using Guru Granth Sahib only.

[unbreakable]

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[Matheen]

You can't take one line at a time - look at the whole shabad in Gurmukhi, not the dodgy translations that abound and there are no contradictions. This is where katha by Mahapurkhs like Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji helps.

Gurbani is not an instruction manual - it is 'Bhram Vichar' or 'Dhur Ki Bani'. If you search, you will find an explanation of reincarnation. By the way, what use is 'knowing about reincarnation'?

Please read the shabad below from Ang 637:

ibnu siqgur syvy jnmu n CofY jy Anyk krm krY AiDkweI ]

bin sathigur saevae janam n shhoddai jae anaek karam karai adhhikaaee ||

Without serving the True Guru, one cannot escape reincarnation, even by performing numerous rituals.

vyd pVih qY vwd vKwxih ibnu hir piq gvweI ]

vaedh parrehi thai vaadh vakhaanehi bin har path gavaaee ||

Those who read the Vedas, and argue and debate without the Lord, lose their honor.

scw siqguru swcI ijsu bwxI Bij CUtih gur srxweI ]7]

sachaa sathigur saachee jis baanee bhaj shhoottehi gur saranaaee ||7||

True is the True Guru, and True is the Word of His Bani; in the Guru's Sanctuary, one is saved. ||7||

ijn hir min visAw sy dir swcy dir swcY sicAwrw ]

jin har man vasiaa sae dhar saachae dhar saachai sachiaaraa ||

Those whose minds are filled with the Lord are judged as true in the Court of the Lord; they are hailed as true in the True Court.

Enw dI soBw juig juig hoeI koie n mytxhwrw ]

ounaa dhee sobhaa jug jug hoee koe n maettanehaaraa ||

Their praises echo throughout the ages, and no one can erase them.

nwnk iqn kY sd bilhwrY ijn hir rwiKAw auir Dwrw ]8]1]

naanak thin kai sadh balihaarai jin har raakhiaa our dhhaaraa ||8||1||

Nanak is forever a sacrifice to those who enshrine the Lord within their hearts. ||8||1||

[amardeep]

Thats exactly my point. Unbreakable posted a shabad that tells you its best to stay detached from the Vedas and Katebas, so he probably made the conclusion that this is the best, not aware of the fact that 200 pages later there is another shabad canceling this kind of interpretation as those who have done so , are being criticised.

The philosophy that Guru Granth Sahib expounds is not given in cronical order, and for this reason its more difficult to understand the philosophy as you have to read all of Guru Granth Sahib to know if your understanding is correct or not- as it might be limited elsewhere.. This is why i say that reading books that give the same philosophy in cronical order are easier and quicker to understand...

The shabad you posted does not tell you about the philosophy of reincarnation.

Unbreakable: Khalsa Mahima in Sarbloh Granth talks about Khalsa listening to the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita. i assume that the bhagats also used these "hindu" scriptures along with the instructions from their vidiya Guru.

[Matheen]

' date=' .........are being criticised.

How do you know they have the same philosophy? I didn't post the Shabad to explain reincarnation.......but ask Guru Ji and they will tell you.

We should read all of Guru Sahib anyway, so that's not a problem. There is nothing wrong with reading books for knowledge, if that is what interests you. But you can't ever give them the same status as Guru Sahib.

Guru Sahib doesn't lack in any way, but we do.

[unbreakable]

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[amardeep]

Matheen:

This is a very christian way of looking at things... "you dont have to lift a finger, just ask God and hel will help you"... I am not saying that this can not happen, but man needs to lift a finger of his own.

Why did Guru Gobind Singh send 5-13 men to kashi to learn sanskrit? Could'n they just have asked him to bless him with the knowledge? Why did they spend years down there to learn?

In cronological order, it means that everything is explained in abc... For instance the Gita has different chapters each dealing with one concept of yoga...

[amardeep]

Guru Granth Sahib ji is not contradictory, how dare you accuse me of saying that. Stop putting words into my mouth veerji and listen to what i say: Gurbani does not contradict it self, but when you read one line and make a conclusion, then this interpretation will be contradicted by other verses.. THE INTERPRETATION, not Gurbani..

After the chaupei Sahib there comes a lot of Dasam Bani wherein there is a verse saying Ram Katha Jug Jug Athal.... This is about Ramayan:

There is also ang 1350 with Kabir ji saying those who do not reflect upon the eastern and western boooks of religion are the ones being jhoote, not the books themselves....

[Matheen]

Ok, I think I misinterpreted your earlier posts - or you weren't very clear in them.

I agree we must put in the effort ourselves first - but as Sikhs of Guru Sahib, we should first strive to read and understand all of Guru Granth Sahib Ji first, before studying other religions, or we'll end up lost and confused.

Guru Ji may not have given us a 1000 page essay on the theory of Karma, but have revealed the path to becoming 1 with Waheguru. On the way, you'll reach a stage called Giaan Khand and gain knowledge of everything.

When I said 'just ask Guru Ji'. I meant it literally - ask Guru Granth Sahib Ji a question and you'll get an answer. Without knowing what Guru Ji teaches i.e. Gurmat, we can't sieve out the truth from other texts and reject the irrelevant.

Sant Jagjit Singh Ji have explained in their Autobiography (downloadable from the Boss website) why Nirmaley study all the dharmic granths.

By the way, "Ram Katha" doesn't mean Ramayan........and it should be 'chronological' - but even that means placed in order of time. Also, there are question and answer sessions in Gurbani as well, e.g. Sidh Ghosht.

[Mithar]

I agree we must put in the effort ourselves first - but as Sikhs of Guru Sahib, we should first strive to read and understand all of Guru Granth Sahib Ji first, before studying other religions, or we'll end up lost and confused.

I agree with you. Great post.