amardeep Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Jesus said not to eat meat: Although i dont know what scholars say about this gospel, the words sure are beautiful and makes you think 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Not sure about the Isha Putra theory, but the Essenes and the Gospel of Peace and the Gospel of the Twelve certainly are intriguing, as they bare many similarities to the Gnostic Gospels.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morghe Sahar Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I feel compelled to reply to this topic. This is in fact highly problematic. 1. The Bhavishyapurana is at best a problematic work with different parts dating from different periods. It was used extensively by the Ahmadiyya Qadianis to prove their point about Jesus having died in Kashmir, a theory for which there is not a single piece of evidence. The German writer Holger Kersten who propagated that theory in the West believe himself that Jesus' lofty teachings couldn't possibly be of Semitic origin and that he must have learnt them from an Ayran source. He then shows a picture of a Sikh and a Kashmiri pointing out at their noses to show the difference between Aryans and Semites to prove that Israel's lost tribe has survived in Kashmir.The underlying Antisemitism of that theory is just blattant. There simply is no proof that the Ishaputra born of a Kumari is Jesus. It is again this typical Indo-Pakistani trait to try to link two totally different words that mean different things in different languages and to say:"Joo see it iz same" 2. The Gospel of the Holy Twelve is not even an apocryphal work. It was written by Reverend Gideon Jasper Richard Ouseley in the 19th century. It is not even an appocryphal gospel. The vegetarian Jesus thesis is to say the least an extremely weak one given the fact that Jesus described himself as the renewer of the law of Moses. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cul Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 " 10. AND there was a certain man who was blind from his birth. And he denied that there were such things as Sun, Moon, and Stars, or that colour existed. And they tried in vain to persuade him that other people saw them; and they led him to Iesus, and he anointed his eyes and made him to see. 11. And he greatly rejoiced with wonder and fear, and confessed that before he was blind. And now after this, he said, I see all, I know everything, I am god. 12. And Iesus again said unto him, How canst thou know all? Thou canst not see through the walls of thine house, nor read the thoughts of thy fellow men, nor understand the language of birds, or of beasts. Thou canst not even recall the events of thy former life, conception, or birth. 13. Remember with humility how much remains unknown to thee, yea, unseen, and doing so, thou mayest see more clearly." nice 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morghe Sahar Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Utter rubbish and nonsense. That text is not even fron Jesus' time. It was written by a reverend 19 centuries after Jesus on the basis of dreams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I thought Rev Ouseley found the original Aramaic Gospel in Tibet? It was Levi's "Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ" that was claimed to be derived from 'akashic' records.... Below is an interesting article that touches on the 'other gospels' although not all og them. It is interesting to note that Nicolas Notovitch also discovered old historic texts, these being on the lost years of 'Saint Isa'... Aside from the similarity in the below mentioned texts, especially some passages of Thomas's Gospal and the Gospel of the 12... with many common concepts of the Essenes such as incarnation and vegetarian diets etc. There are also many Persian and Islamic mentions of Jesus travelling to India with his mother Mary.... It is fairly obvious that the Gnostics inherited the mystical tradition of the Essenes (as modified by Jesus). Paul seems to have created a competing "Christian" branch which warped Jesus teachings toward something more compatible with Roman sensibilities. Some folks believe that Paul was a Roman agent who deliberately co-opted the Christian movement for the Roman state. (See: http://www.essene.org/Yahowshua_or_Paul.htm ) Perhaps my biggest problem with the Roman brand of Christianity is their preoccupation with evil and their belief in essentially evil beings. The Gnostics generally equated evil with illusion. The Gospel of Truth (from the Nag Hammadi scrolls) is a philosophical treatise on the relationship between All That Is and this illusion: "The Gospel is the manifestation of the hoped for, a treasure trove for those who seek it. For indeed the Totality (of created beings) have been searching after that from which they emerged--yet without knowing it, the created beings were, in truth, within the Unthinkably Incomprehensible One (who is beyond thought) all along! This not-knowing-the-Parent became an anguish and a terror and the anguish condensed like a fog so that none could see. Because of this, Illusion (Plane) held sway. The material manifestation of the Earth (however beautiful) is the symbolic representation of this illusion and separation. This is not a defeat of the Unthinkably Incomprehensible One for in truth the anguish and forgetting and the material manifestations are only an illusion whereas the abiding Truth is unchangeable, undisturbed and unable to be improved upon. Therefore look with scorn on Illusion (Plane). Its basis is the fog of separation from the One. Its business is preparing labors and forgetfulness and fear, which entice those un-materialized entities and entrap them in the physical." Personification of various philosophical concepts seemed to be a fairly common practice among the Gnostics (and a common literary device in much literature of this time). I think that this literary device eventually got confused in the common mind with the worship of the person of those concepts which were personified. Thus "Sophia" became a god instead of just the concept of wisdom and "Plane" became a devil instead of the concept of illusion. This type of misinterpretation which is further compounded by changing cultural factors over time often makes it difficult to see that the original teachings were the same from Lao Tzu to Buddha to Jesus to Seth. For this reason I would prefer to read Jesus' actual words rather than the various interpretations of them in the literature of the various sects which sprang up from his teachings. One problem with this is that each group modified Jesus' words to suit their purpose. Generally these modifications were in the nature of selectively including or excluding portions of Jesus' teachings in order to support their particular beliefs. So, in order to get a clear understanding of exactly what Jesus said, it is best to read his words from documents which were sponsored by a variety of early Christian sects. Unfortunately it looks like the prevailing Roman Christian church came to dominate this competitive field early on and they took it upon themselves to destroy as many of the competing gospels as they could find. It appears that several early gospels survived the Roman Christian orgy of book burning. These gospels have shown up in widely scattered locations where they were lost or hidden from the Roman church. Many of the mystical elements of Christianity seem to have been eliminated around the time of the Council of Nicea. The few surviving pre Nicean Christian documents have a much more mystical feel to them. In 1892 the Rev. Gideon Jasper Richard Ouseley published a book called "The Gospel of the Holy Twelve". Ouseley claimed that this book was his translation of an original Aramaic document he found in a Buddhist monastery in Tibet. Anything which showed up in this book but which was not in other books available at the time would be evidence for its authenticity if these passages subsequently showed up in authenticated texts which were discovered later. This appears to be the case. According to Ouseley this document dated from the first century AD and somehow managed to escape the orgy of book burning which the emperor Constantine inspired when he converted to Christianity. In order to get Constantine to convert, officials in the Christian church at the time apparently agreed to expunge certain concepts from Christian doctrine and literature. The three main concepts that were expunged were reincarnation, the equality and rights of women and vegetarianism and our obligations toward animals. In 1948 scroll fragments were found in some cliff side caves in Palestine. These led to the discovery of what has been called the "Dead Sea Scrolls". Later discoveries in the area added many more scrolls to the list. An international team was quickly formed to document, preserve and translate these documents. Unfortunately, politics and religion came together to make sure that this team was composed mainly of Jesuit priests. John Allegro, one of the few unbiased scientists on the team, became aware of the agenda of the Jesuits and smuggled out a significant portion of the scrolls which were purported to contain the words of Jesus. When the Jesuits found out that Allegro would not be returning with these "stolen" documents, they apparently tried to make it appear that he had lost his mind--to discredit him. The scrolls, after being translated into English from ancient Aramaic and Hebrew, were hidden away. The translation was given to Frank Mucci, a Jehovah's Witness. When Frank was met with hostility and disbelief within his church, he founded the Edenite Society in 1979. He self published a limited edition of what has become known as "The Humane Gospel of Christ". In the following years Frank was persecuted and derided by other "Christian" groups. He even received death threats. In 1995 Frank asked a colleague to try to publish the Gospel. He published it online. Since the death of John Allegro, no one knows where the scrolls he took are hidden; therefore, the legitimacy of the writings cannot be proven. Another set of documents was also allegedly found in Tibetan monasteries. They were discovered and translated by Nicolas Notovitch, Swami Abhedananda and Nicholas Roerich around the turn of the last century (1900). These documents chronicle Jesus' life and teachings while in India and Tibet during the years where the Bible has nothing to say. The best known of these documents is titled "The Life of St. Issa". Elizabeth Clare Prophet wrote a book titled "The Lost Years of Jesus" which tells the story of these men and their discoveries in Tibet. A fourth set of documents was found and translated by Edmond Bordeaux Szekely. Szekely claims that he discovered "The Essene Gospel of Peace" in Aramaic in the library of the Vatican and in ancient Slavonic in the library of the Hapsburgs in Vienna, Austria. He translated and compared these manuscripts then published the compiled version in English in 1937. The Essene Gospel of Peace is purportedly the teachings of Jesus on diet and healing. A fifth document "The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ" by Levi H. Dowling was "transcribed" from the "Akashic records". The Aquarian Gospel is entirely consistent with the other documents listed above, though it was received psychically. It was first published in 1907. The aforementioned documents all have been questioned as to their validity. The Life of St. Issa was found and translated in a Tibetan monastery which now denies the existence of the original manuscripts. The Vatican library is similarly reluctant to acknowledge that they possess any such document. As I mentioned earlier, the original manuscript for the Humane Gospel is not available for confirmation. The manuscript of the Gospel of the Holy Twelve is probably lost in Chinese occupied Tibet and the Akashic Records are held in poor regard by most Biblical scholars. For these documents, then, we are forced to rely for proof of their validity on internal evidence within and between them and other established documents. All of these documents show Jesus as opposing animal sacrifice and favoring a vegetarian lifestyle. Most speak favorably about the concept of reincarnation and most also encourage respect and equality for women. There is internal evidence within the Gospel of the Holy Twelve which suggests that it was written in ancient times. This evidence is thoroughly examined in a new version of this gospel titled "The Gospel of the Nazirenes" edited by Alan Wauters and Rick Van Wyhe. The authors examine texts written by the Roman Catholic church fathers and compare quotes from them which criticize Gnostic gospels with similar passages in the Gospel of the Holy Twelve. There is one alternative gospel with well documented historic validity, though. This is the "Gospel of Thomas" which was found among the Nag Hammadi scrolls in Upper Egypt. Several passages in the Gospel of the Holy Twelve are quite similar to passages in the Gospel of Thomas. Here is a sample from the Gospel of the Holy Twelve: Lection LII 9. As it is above, so it is below. As it is within, so it is without. As on the right hand, so on the left. As it is before, so it is behind. As with the great so with the small. As with the male, so with the female. When these things shall be seen, then ye shall see the kingdom of God. 10. For in me there is neither Male nor Female, but both are One in the All perfect. The woman is not without the man, nor is the man without the woman. This passage bears a remarkable similarity to several sayings in the Gospel of Thomas. (22) Jesus saw children who were being suckled. He said to his disciples: These children who are being suckled are like those who enter the Kingdom. They said to Him: Shall we then, being children, enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner and the above as the below, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male will not be male and the female not be female, when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot, and an image in the place of an image then shall you enter the Kingdom. The following passage also contains similar correlations: Lection LXVI 13. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear, let them hear. Also compare this to the following passage from the Gospel of Thomas: (106) Jesus said: When you make the two one, you shall become sons of Man, and when you say: "Mountain, be moved", it will be moved. The mystical concept of "making the two one" is not found in the Bible but it is found abundantly in both the Gospel of the Holy Twelve and in the Gospel of Thomas. Notice that in both gospels God is spoken of as being both male and female. This is common in Buddhist and Hindu teachings but is not at all common in Roman Christianity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Does'nt Isha Putra mean son of God? who are the malechas in hindu scriptures? i know that the muslims and mughals were called malechas in india during the times of the Gurus, but who are the malechas in ancient hindu scriptures? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Possibly all the Abrahamic faiths. Don't forget that some of the 'ancient' Indian texts i.e. some Puranas, Simritis, were actually most likely written after the creation of Islam. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 What does the word malech mean? is'nt it the hindi word for kafir that denotes someone being unclean 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 My understanding is that those that don't respect the sanctity of cow (ie eat beef) and those that don't respect the Brahmin are regarded as Malechh. The greeks (- also considered the Fallen Kyshatarya) and most others migrants into India, for these reasons, were declared Malechh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morghe Sahar Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 The theory of the Aramaic gospel found in Tibet goes back to Nikolai Notovich and was of course another 19th century spiritualist hoax. Reverend Gideon Jasper Richard Ouseley claims to have seen the gospel in his dreams and that Jesus translated it for him. The word Mleccha means barbarian and qualifies all non Indians, be it Chinese, Persians, Arabs or Europeans. Scythians were also considered mlecchas when they came to India. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 So malech panth just meant the non-indian religion? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Sometimes 'untouchables' are called mlechchs too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cul Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Utter rubbish and nonsense. That text is not even fron Jesus' time. It was written by a reverend 19 centuries after Jesus on the basis of dreams. I don't give a monkey's ass who wrote it, if you can't recognise a good message for the author, then you are blind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morghe Sahar Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Who are you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 That is what I have been asking myself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=pTxZy32Fv_0 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cul Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I am a figment of your imagination. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 laalsingh, lol.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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