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Sin In Sikhism

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Could someone give more insight into the concept of sin or 'paap' in Sikhi? Also how does it differ from the idea of sin from western religions

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I suppose the main 2 differences relate to the origin of sin, and the process for eradicating the affect of sin.

Sikhi teaches that sin potential exists within us all in the form of the panj chor - which reside/make up our mind.

Semetic (mainstream at least) teaches sin is a product of Shaitan (Satan) and his influence on us. Although some Sufi schools within these faith do treat Shaitan and Hell as a metaphor rather than a being or place per se - more in line with Sikhi.

Sikhi teaches to erase the affects of sin - one must become Gur-Mukh - kirtan, simran, seva, daan etc help us eradicate the affect of bad karam - concepts which I believe can be followed by anyone from any faith.

Semetic teaches that one must accept Jesus, Mohammed etc as your saviour/final Prophet - and follow the secular laws as layed down by them.

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Paap

Introduction:

A bad karma is called paap. The residue of sin is called paap. It could be defined a wrongful act. One of the biggest Sin is to forget GOD. One of biggest pun is to remember GOD.

How Bad Karma or Paap could be done?

Bad Karma could be done by 3 different ways: Body/Physical; Mind/Thoughts; Speech/Words/Tongue.

Categories of Paap: The paaps are categorized into various types depending upon their punishment levels:

1. Sins done through Physical Body: They are of 4 kinds:


  1. a. Taking somebody's thing without his giving
    b. Killing somebody
    c. Illicit relations with other woman

2. Sins done through Speech/Word: They are of 4 kinds:


  1. a. Lying or backbiting or Nindea
    b. Illogical talk
    c. Harsh speech
    d. False witness

3. Sins done through Mind/Thoughts: They are of 3 kinds:


  1. a. Coveting the property of others.
    b. Thinking to harm others,
    c. Thinking in one's heart of what is undesirable.

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One doesn't pay for Sins done through mind/thoughts(foorna). However, every effort must be made to subdue those thoughts of bad doing because one day sooner or late, mind will action that desire which had resided in the mind. As soon there is action, there is good or bad karam based on those actions.

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One doesn't pay for Sins done through mind/thoughts(foorna). However, every effort must be made to subdue those thoughts of bad doing because one day sooner or late, mind will action that desire which had resided in the mind. As soon there is action, there is good or bad karam based on those actions.

one NEEDS to pay for the sins done through our mind/thoughts(forna).......it is the same way that if a person while dying thinks of something, then he/she will get in that joone....e.g "if one thinks of husband/wife in mind, then he/she will become prostitute in the next birth"......there are other examples too that whatever we think (in mind) during dying time, one gets into that birth.

So, defintely whatever we think in mind, we've to bear the fruit of that......be it either good or bad.....to confirm please refer to Guru Granth Sahib Ji and also to various Sant's deewan.

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But then why are we given the ability to do things called sinful? & Why, then, are we punished for doing exactly what God has created and given the ability for us to do? (question also posted in thread to ask sant jagjit singh)

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Through his kushi - there was creation.

Through his kushi - there is destruction.

We are but pawns on the board - and this is all but his khed - it's for us to understand this and learn the rules of the game, accept them, apply them and make his kushi our kushi.

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There is no division of eastern and western sin, it is all an illusion. Sin is sin, something you do, whether in your mind or physically, that you later feel remorse for doing. We all punish ourselves, sin is nothing more than the law of cause and effect but with the addition of our egoistic colouring onto the act. An act has a repercussion, this is a law, whether you feel this repercussion depends on the state of your mind i.e. what you are. A repercussion is an echo, a vibration reflected back. All actions including thoughts are vibrations these go off into space and reflect back - repercussions - if the ego follows these thoughts and actions it also receives back the fruit the repercussion. The sin comes in when according to the purity of the ego or the buddhi, the repercussion stains it. A man with a unpurified buddhi or ego would not consider some actions sinful as he does not feel their stain he is blind to them because his buddhi or ego is dirty a man with a cleaned buddhi sees these same actions as sinful, indulgence would create a stain on him thereby causing remorse, remorse stems from understanding that we are not as we should be. There is no sin for a man who does not concern himself with his spiritual duty a manmukh cannot sin but he cannot do anything else he is a tool, fodder to be eaten.

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Mekhane'ch Janna I greatly agree.

However, I think the question is being raised in terms of how people (large majority) understand and live with the concept of sin - (us simple uneducated folk)!

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If you are a Sikh you have to go to the essence of things, otherwise just follow what other people do and don't offend them. When you hurt someone or offend them this is 'sin' just don't do it. What else is there to say? if you don;t want to search for the truth then just follow others this is the best thing. What is right or wrong is defined by society so just follow society, you cannot just invent new morals, that is crazy. External morality is for the 'large majority' as you say you cannot change this you can only follow it, internal morality is different, internal defines external, to understand external you have to go internal otherwise you are following the psychopathy of western science which seeks to find the answers in the external. i would have thought a Sikh would be more interested in internal rather than external morality, but then again it is kaljug.

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Jesus said, even with the thought of beding another's wife, you have already sinned. (i'm parapharsing).How does the thought of doing an immoral act differ from the actual act. If such is the case and the words of Jesus are indeed his words and are divine, then we Sin every moment we get angry, fill ourselves w/ lust for another woman or get greedy for anothers possesions. The thought proceeding the act is equal to the act? The origin of Sin, the seed of the Sin has already been planted, the fruit is the action. Are our thoughts registered in the book of our karmic debt? I think the point that Jesus was trying to make is that to watch your mind, do not worry about your actions so much, instead look at the origin of when a thought to harm another or take what is not yours sprouts. That our Sins begin in the mind, not in our actions.

Sin is a thought/act that lacks compassion.

I feel a great tendency to avoid making Sin into a black and white thing. For example Lying is wrong or even sinful, yet I cannot help but consider the circumstance when lying is a necessity to protect the Truth. Killing is Sin, yet when it happens in War or in self-defense it is acceptable. Killing an animal is a sin, but when one is starving in the jungles to feed oneself or their family it is acceptable.

Every act is circumstantial and without inquring as to the intent of the individual, we become the jamdoots of passing judgement on others.

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In one of his granths, Harkhowal mahapursh wrote that we do not get bad karms for our thoughts.

But it is true that our thoughts can be the seeds of future events. How to reconcile these?

I think we pay for the cause (our thought) with some effect, even if that effect is as little as a slight reinforcement of a tendency to think in a certain way. so the seeds of karm are laid. But we do not get any paap written down by chittar gupt so long as it remains thought.

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In one of his granths, Harkhowal mahapursh wrote that we do not get bad karms for our thoughts.

But it is true that our thoughts can be the seeds of future events. How to reconcile these?

I think we pay for the cause (our thought) with some effect, even if that effect is as little as a slight reinforcement of a tendency to think in a certain way. so the seeds of karm are laid. But we do not get any paap written down by chittar gupt so long as it remains thought.

I'm NOT posting against what Mahapurakh have written in His book. I can't think about it. I'm just trying to understand better as I was thinking otherwise. If we cannot get paap/pun (fruit) of the thinking (something which we did ONLY in our mind and NOT in action), then why do we go into various joonis if while dying we think about: Thinking about husband/wife will result in next birth as prostitute; Thinking about children will result in next birth as pig; Thinking about house will result in next birth as ghost etc. etc.

If I am not wrong, then Antekaran goes to Dharamraja when we leave our physical body........in other terms Maan, Chit, Bhud, Ankhar (which are parts of Antekaran) goes to Dharamraja.........and then why won't we have to bear the fruit for what we did with our Maan??

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In one of his granths, Harkhowal mahapursh wrote that we do not get bad karms for our thoughts.

But it is true that our thoughts can be the seeds of future events. How to reconcile these?

I think we pay for the cause (our thought) with some effect, even if that effect is as little as a slight reinforcement of a tendency to think in a certain way. so the seeds of karm are laid. But we do not get any paap written down by chittar gupt so long as it remains thought.

I'm NOT posting against what Mahapurakh have written in His book. I can't think about it. I'm just trying to understand better as I was thinking otherwise. If we cannot get paap/pun (fruit) of the thinking (something which we did ONLY in our mind and NOT in action), then why do we go into various joonis if while dying we think about: Thinking about husband/wife will result in next birth as prostitute; Thinking about children will result in next birth as pig; Thinking about house will result in next birth as ghost etc. etc.

If I am not wrong, then Antekaran goes to Dharamraja when we leave our physical body........in other terms Maan, Chit, Bhud, Ankhar (which are parts of Antekaran) goes to Dharamraja.........and then why won't we have to bear the fruit for what we did with our Maan??

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Nice, amardeep.

As for the dude asking why we have the ability to sin, after which we get punished. You may think you don't want to be punished, but in my opinion everyone gets what they want out of life. Most times you sin you do it out of masochistic tendencies, trying to punish yourself.

There is no good or bad; right or wrong. You reap what you sow. 'Getting punn' is not an aim in itself, we need to transcend punn and paap. There is always a caveat, there is no black and white dichotomy between the two.

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Another thing to my mind and just want to share:

When Neo bhaji says that "Things we did in our mind does NOT get bad karma, but seeds gets sowed........"

Isn't the seed also a form of fruit (good or bad) because the seeds will force us to do either Good or Bad........e.g If we think about bad for someone, then we create a seed in our subconscious mind which in turn will compel us to do something wrong......same way, if we think of good for someone, then we create a good seed in our subconscious mind which in turn will compel us to do something good.............in other terms our "Free Will" will be effected because of our mind thoughts..........and if this is the case, then surely mind thoughts does carry fruit (either good or bad).

Another thing is that doing the karmas by mind may also land us into mind problems in the coming years or janams.......e.g some persons are always in tension, worry, negative thoughts, negative attitude, no peaceful mind etc........All these problems are due to the previous bad Mind thoughts............To some extend we can say that karma done physically has different level of punishment or rewards vs the karmas done through the mind......but anything that our Mind thinks does carry punishment or reward.......it could be in the form of peaceful mind (reward for good mind thoughts), or tension (punishment for bad mind thoughts), or good/bad seeds our subconscious mind etc. etc.

Good karma and Bad Karma are NOT something like good and bad based upon the physical aspect.......Good karma are those which help us to leave ego and get merge with GOD......and Bad karma are those who keeps us away from the GOD.

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