Baba Fateh Singh Ji - Shiv Avatar?

[jsingh96]

For those are not familiar with the story of Baba Fateh Singh Ji dressing up in 'Mahakal' saroop, it was when he arrived in Guru Gobind Singh Jis Darbaar in the Mahakal saroop (form), by wearing blue bana, a tall dastaar, a farla, and decked with weapons.

Now, literally the word Mahakal means Greater than Death, but also refers to Shiv Ji. Mahakal is a ferocious form of Shiv Ji.

What got me thinking was when I read in Bijay Mukht Prakhash Granth*, Guru Gobind Singh Ji explains to the Sangat that Baba Fateh Singh Ji is the avatar of Shiv Ji (he also mentiosn how Baba Zoravar Singh Ji is the avatar of Indra).

So when Maharaj said to the Sangat that he will make a panth that will look like Baba Fateh Singh Ji, (i.e. Nihangs), are Nihangs then the form of Shiv Ji?

This goes back to the line in Sarbloh where it says...

ਧਰਮ ਪੰਥ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ-ਭਯੋ, ਸਤਿ ਸ਼ਿਵੰ ਪੁਨਯ ਰੂਪ ਜੲੇ ॥

One interpretation of this line is...

The sacred and pure Panth multiplied, having the true form of Parmeshar (Sat Shivan, here is translated as Parmeshar, which can be argued. Bhai Kahan Singh Ji in his mahan kosh does note that Shiv can also refer to Parmeshar. This is the appraoch that Jathedar Akali Baba Santha Singh Ji takes.

or it can be seen that Sat Shivan in the line means the true Shiv (roop/form)

Share your thoughts

*Bijay Mukht Granth is an old sau saukhi, that some claim to be the oldest and most authentic sau sakhi. It was written by an attendant of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and talks about the daily conversations Guru Sahib had with the Sangat, i.e. questions the Sangat asked, or if Maharaj gave them any hukams etc

[amardeep]

Kamalroop debunked the whole theory on nihangs looking like Shiva, please read it on his blog

[Mystical]

For those are not familiar with the story of Baba Fateh Singh Ji dressing up in 'Mahakal' saroop, it was when he arrived in Guru Gobind Singh Jis Darbaar in the Mahakal saroop (form), by wearing blue bana, a tall dastaar, a farla, and decked with weapons.

Now, literally the word Mahakal means Greater than Death, but also refers to Shiv Ji. Mahakal is a ferocious form of Shiv Ji.

What got me thinking was when I read in Bijay Mukht Prakhash Granth*, Guru Gobind Singh Ji explains to the Sangat that Baba Fateh Singh Ji is the avatar of Shiv Ji (he also mentiosn how Baba Zoravar Singh Ji is the avatar of Indra).

So when Maharaj said to the Sangat that he will make a panth that will look like Baba Fateh Singh Ji, (i.e. Nihangs), are Nihangs then the form of Shiv Ji?

This goes back to the line in Sarbloh where it says...

ਧਰਮ ਪੰਥ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ-ਭਯੋ, ਸਤਿ ਸ਼ਿਵੰ ਪੁਨਯ ਰੂਪ ਜੲੇ ॥

One interpretation of this line is...

The sacred and pure Panth multiplied, having the true form of Parmeshar (Sat Shivan, here is translated as Parmeshar, which can be argued. Bhai Kahan Singh Ji in his mahan kosh does note that Shiv can also refer to Parmeshar. This is the appraoch that Jathedar Akali Baba Santha Singh Ji takes.

or it can be seen that Sat Shivan in the line means the true Shiv (roop/form)

Share your thoughts

*Bijay Mukht Granth is an old sau saukhi, that some claim to be the oldest and most authentic sau sakhi. It was written by an attendant of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and talks about the daily conversations Guru Sahib had with the Sangat, i.e. questions the Sangat asked, or if Maharaj gave them any hukams etc

Is this granth available in PDF format with English translations?

[Guest]

amardeep, can you please provide direct link from kamalroop singh's blog on this subject so that sangat can read it here?

[amardeep]

http://neo-sikhism.blogspot.com/2008/11/do...ke-shiv-ji.html

[Mystical]

The way I throught of this Shiv Saroop was being fearless of death and destroying evil which is what Shiva does. Ive seen old pictures of Shiv Ji in which he has a beard.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/9613/shivabeardzz6.jpg

The clean faced image is the popular image.

The colour blue is meant to be the colour of the ocean. When your doing Shastar Vidiya the highest level of Vidiya is to be like water and merge with your opponent, where no force is used, your just water falling into gaps. Mahakal is also described as being a form which makes all shastars seem blunt.

I dont think Shiv Saroop is meant to be the physical form of Shiva but more on the charatictics of Shiva.

If you seen SV just imagine how Baba Fateh Singh Ji fort in battle. Ive even heard that Baba Fateh Singh was described as a crocodile emerging from the ocean.

[jsingh96]

thanks for the response mystical, very interesting

[The Khalsa Fauj]

We must rely on Gurbani. Gurbani says the following about Shiv.

ਰੋਗੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਰੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਰੋਗੀ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨਿ ਭਏ ਸੇ ਮੁਕਤੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ॥ ੪॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ 1153}

Roagee Brahmaa Bissan Sarudraa Roagee Saggal Sunsaaraa || Har Pad Cheen Bhaye Say Muktay Gur Ka Shabad Veechaaraa || 4||

Brahmaa is diseased, Bissan and Rudar (Shiv) are diseased and the world is diseased. Those who keep in mind Lord’s feet (remain humble) and become a student of Guru’s word attain salvation. 4.

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ ਮੋਦੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਖਾਣਾ ਪਾਕਾ ਵਾ ਕਾ ਲੜਕਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ ੨॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ 874}

Paanday Tumraa Mahadeo Dhaoulay Dallad Charreaa Aavat Daykheaa Thaa || Moadee Kay Ghar Khaannaa Paakaa Vaa Kaa Larrkaa Maareaa Thaa || 2||

Oh pandit! I saw your Mahesh (Shiv) arrive on the white bull. He was invited to dinner by a merchant but he killed his son. 2.

More quotes can be posted but two should be enough. It is paap to compare Sahibzada Fateh Singh Ji to Shiv. Shiv had anger management problems. Sahibzada Fateh Singh was way greater than Shiv. Shiv also indulged in bajjar kurehits such as weed and stuff like that.

[Kaljug]

We must rely on Gurbani. Gurbani says the following about Shiv.

ਰੋਗੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਰੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਰੋਗੀ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨਿ ਭਏ ਸੇ ਮੁਕਤੇ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਾ ॥ ੪॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ 1153}

Roagee Brahmaa Bissan Sarudraa Roagee Saggal Sunsaaraa || Har Pad Cheen Bhaye Say Muktay Gur Ka Shabad Veechaaraa || 4||

Brahmaa is diseased, Bissan and Rudar (Shiv) are diseased and the world is diseased. Those who keep in mind Lord’s feet (remain humble) and become a student of Guru’s word attain salvation. 4.

Here's the full shabad (in English translation for brevity):

BHAIRAO, ASHTAPADEES, FIRST MEHL, SECOND HOUSE:

ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

The Lord is in the soul, and the soul is in the Lord. This is realized through the Guru's Teachings. The Ambrosial Word of the Guru's Bani is realized through the Word of the Shabad. Sorrow is dispelled, and egotism is eliminated. || 1 || O Nanak, the disease of egotism is so very deadly. Wherever I look, I see the pain of the same disease. The Primal Lord Himself bestows the Shabad of His Word. || 1 || Pause || When the Appraiser Himself appraises the mortal, then he is not tested again. Those who are blessed with His Grace meet with the Guru. They alone are true, who are pleasing to God. || 2 || Air, water and fire are diseased; the world with its enjoyments is diseased. Mother, father, Maya and the body are diseased; those united with their relatives are diseased. || 3 || Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are diseased; the whole world is diseased. Those who remember the Lord's Feet and contemplate the Word of the Guru's Shabad are liberated. || 4 || The seven seas are diseased, along with the rivers; the continents and the nether regions of the underworlds are full of disease. The people of the Lord dwell in Truth and peace; He blesses them with His Grace everywhere. || 5 || The six Shaastras are diseased, as are the many who follow the different religious orders. What can the poor Vedas and Bibles do? People do not understand the One and Only Lord. || 6 || Eating sweet treats, the mortal is filled with disease; he finds no peace at all. Forgetting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, they walk on other paths, and at the very last moment, they regret and repent. || 7 || Wandering around at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, the mortal is not cured of his disease. Reading scripture, he gets involved in useless arguments. The disease of duality is so very deadly; it causes dependence on Maya. || 8 || One who becomes Gurmukh and praises the True Shabad with the True Lord in his mind is cured of his disease.

The shabad is about the supremacy of Naam and the pains of egotism, not about Shiva. If your inference is that this shabad tells us about Shiva's badness, what about the similar panktis about air, water, fire, mother, father? Do you think that all of these are inherently bad or is the shabad to be as a interpreted as a whole?

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ ਮੋਦੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਖਾਣਾ ਪਾਕਾ ਵਾ ਕਾ ਲੜਕਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ ੨॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ 874}

Paanday Tumraa Mahadeo Dhaoulay Dallad Charreaa Aavat Daykheaa Thaa || Moadee Kay Ghar Khaannaa Paakaa Vaa Kaa Larrkaa Maareaa Thaa || 2||

Oh pandit! I saw your Mahesh (Shiv) arrive on the white bull. He was invited to dinner by a merchant but he killed his son. 2.

Here's the whole shabad in English translation:

RAAG GOND, THE WORD OF NAAM DAYV JEE, SECOND HOUSE:

ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, all doubts are dispelled. Chanting the Name of the Lord is the highest religion. Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, erases social classes and ancestral pedigrees. The Lord is the walking stick of the blind. || 1 || I bow to the Lord, I humbly bow to the Lord. Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, you will not be tormented by the Messenger of Death. || 1 || Pause || The Lord took the life of Harnaakhash, and gave Ajaamal a place in heaven. Teaching a parrot to speak the Lord's Name, Ganika the prostitute was saved. That Lord is the light of my eyes. || 2 || Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Pootna was saved, even though she was a deceitful child-killer. Contemplating the Lord, Dropadi was saved. Gautam's wife, turned to stone, was saved. || 3 || The Lord, who killed Kaysee and Kans, gave the gift of life to Kali. Prays Naam Dayv, such is my Lord; meditating on Him, fear and suffering are dispelled. || 4 || 1 || 5 || GOND: One who chases after the god Bhairau, evil spirits and the goddess of smallpox, is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust. || 1 || I take only the Name of the One Lord. I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. || 1 || Pause || That man who chants "Shiva, Shiva", and meditates on him, is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine. || 2 || One who worships the Great Goddess Maya will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. || 3 || You are called the Primal Goddess. At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? || 4 || Follow the Guru's Teachings, and hold tight to the Lord's Name, O friend. Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. || 5 || 2 || 6 || BILAAVAL GOND: Today, Naam Dayv saw the Lord, and so I will instruct the ignorant. || Pause || O Pandit, O religious scholar, your Gayatri was grazing in the fields. Taking a stick, the farmer broke its leg, and now it walks with a limp. || 1 || O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull. In the merchant's house, a banquet was prepared for him - he killed the merchant's son. || 2 || O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. || 3 || The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them. The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque. Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. || 4 || 3 || 7 ||

The message of the shabad is again about the superiority of Naam and worship of Nirguna Brahman.

More quotes can be posted but two should be enough. It is paap to compare Sahibzada Fateh Singh Ji to Shiv. Shiv had anger management problems. Sahibzada Fateh Singh was way greater than Shiv. Shiv also indulged in bajjar kurehits such as weed and stuff like that.

There isn't much point in posting single panktis from a shabad to prove your point. Last time I checked, Shiva had not chak Amrit, so it's pretty stupid to accuse him of commiting a kurehit.

P.S. Since I have already been accused of being a Satanist for clarifying Aleister Crowley's writings, so let me take this opportunity to say that I am not a Shaivite, I do not smoke weed, and I do not ride to work on a white bull. However, I am almost certain this statement will not prevent some of the nutjobs here of accusing me of all these things and of being an agent for the RSS.

Regards,

K.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

So if someone hasn't taken Amrit, that person is allowed to freely commit bajjar kurehits? Bajjar kurehits are bajjar kurehits. Doesn't matter is the person is Amritdhari or not. Paap karam is paap karam. If a person isn't Amritdhari, it doesn't mean person is allowed to do bajjar kurehits.

I gave you Gurbani quote which says Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh were without naam.

Shabad is clear about Shiv, Brahma and Vishnu and says they were diseased by ego. This is a core principle which Guru Nanak Ji is giving in that shabad. The second shabad by Bhagat Namdev Ji identifies an action of Mahadeo (Shiv). Shiv killed the son a merchant because food wasn't prepared on time. These points can never be ignored. This is great disrespect to Sahibzada Fateh Singh. If you agree that Baba Fateh Singh had characteristics of Shiv, you are saying that Sahibzada Fateh Singh had anger mangement problems and would kill someone' son if he wasn't given food on time.

However, since you aren't satisfied with the above quotes, let me give another one but I know you will not agree and will come up with more excuses to defend Shiv. These quotes are for those who are interested in understanding and learning Gurmat.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਏ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਚੇਤਹਿ ਬਪੁੜੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥ ੨॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੭੩੫}

Brahmaa Bissan Mahadeo Trai Guon Roagee Vich Haomai Car Kmaaee || Jin Keeaye Tisheh Na Chaythe Har Gurmukh Soajhee Paaee || 2||

Brahmaa, Bissan and Mahesh were diseased by the three qualities of maaya (materialism); they acted in ego. They didn’t remember the one who created them. One gains this understanding by placing his faith on God. 2.

ਭਰਮੇ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੨੫੮}

Bharmay Sur Nar Dayvee Dayvaa ||

Angelic individuals, goddesses and gods are wedged in doubt.

ਸਦਾ ਸਹਜੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸਚੇ ਸਿਉ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਭੁਲੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਇਆ ॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੮੫੨}

Sdaa Sahaj Sukh Mun Vaseaa Schay Seo Liv Laaeaa || Brahmaa Bissan Mahadeo Trai Guon Bhulay Haumai Moh Vadhaaeeaa ||

Gradual peace is attained when one links their concentration on the Truth. Brahmaa, Bissan and Mahadeo were lost in the three qualities of entanglements and had amplified ego and duality.

1. Was Baba Fateh Singh stuck in maaya and acted in ego like Shiv?

2. Was he stuck in duality like Shiv? Was he lost in three qualities of maaya?

3. Baba Fateh Singh had amplified ego like Shiv?

If the answer to above three questions is no, then Baba Fateh Singh Ji didn't have the characteristics of Shiv. It is utter disrespect of Baba Fateh Singh Ji to compare him to Shiv. This disrespect of shaheeds and pooran Gursikhs should never be acceptable.

[Mystical]

If you agree that Baba Fateh Singh had characteristics of Shiv, you are saying that Sahibzada Fateh Singh had anger mangement problems and would kill someone' son if he wasn't given food on time.

1. Was Baba Fateh Singh stuck in maaya and acted in ego like Shiv?

2. Was he stuck in duality like Shiv? Was he lost in three qualities of maaya?

3. Baba Fateh Singh had amplified ego like Shiv?

If the answer to above three questions is no, then Baba Fateh Singh Ji didn't have the characteristics of Shiv. It is utter disrespect of Baba Fateh Singh Ji to compare him to Shiv. This disrespect of shaheeds and pooran Gursikhs should never be acceptable.

When I was talking about characteristics of Shiv, I meant it in terms of Martial Traditions in India of the Shiv style of fighting. Of course Baba Fateh Singh Ji didnt have an anger problem.

1. No, otherwise he wouldnt have become Shaheed.

2. Because his own Guru was his father.

3. No

[Kaljug]

The Khalsa Fauj writes:

So if someone hasn't taken Amrit, that person is allowed to freely commit bajjar kurehits? Bajjar kurehits are bajjar kurehits. Doesn't matter is the person is Amritdhari or not. Paap karam is paap karam. If a person isn't Amritdhari, it doesn't mean person is allowed to do bajjar kurehits.

This is a completely stupid thing to say. You cannot break rehat if you don't follow it in the first place. Kurehit != paap.

I gave you Gurbani quote which says Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh were without naam.

They are not worthy of worship, Gurbani tell us this, but the shabads you quote do not say any such thing. I actually agree with you on this issue, but I am pointing out that your quotes are completely irrelevant to this issue.

Shabad is clear about Shiv, Brahma and Vishnu and says they were diseased by ego. This is a core principle which Guru Nanak Ji is giving in that shabad.

No, it's not the central message. Read the whole shabad.

The second shabad by Bhagat Namdev Ji identifies an action of Mahadeo (Shiv). Shiv killed the son a merchant because food wasn't prepared on time. These points can never be ignored. This is great disrespect to Sahibzada Fateh Singh. If you agree that Baba Fateh Singh had characteristics of Shiv, you are saying that Sahibzada Fateh Singh had anger mangement problems and would kill someone' son if he wasn't given food on time.

However, since you aren't satisfied with the above quotes, let me give another one but I know you will not agree and will come up with more excuses to defend Shiv. These quotes are for those who are interested in understanding and learning Gurmat.

1. Was Baba Fateh Singh stuck in maaya and acted in ego like Shiv?

2. Was he stuck in duality like Shiv? Was he lost in three qualities of maaya?

3. Baba Fateh Singh had amplified ego like Shiv?

If the answer to above three questions is no, then Baba Fateh Singh Ji didn't have the characteristics of Shiv. It is utter disrespect of Baba Fateh Singh Ji to compare him to Shiv. This disrespect of shaheeds and pooran Gursikhs should never be acceptable.

Firstly, I didn't compare Sahibzada Fateh Singh to Shiva. Secondly, your reasoning is fatuous and your logic faulty. Let me give you a more homely example of how a simile works:

The opponent I fought in an NHB match this week was as strong as a bull. However, he did not chew crud and he did not have horns. He was as big as a house, but we was sorely lacking in windows and he did not buzz when I pressed his nose with my fist. He was as slippery as a snake, but when we all went out for a meal afterwards, he did not swallow his food whole.

Similarly, there is nothing offensive to say that, when Baba Fateh Singh fought, he was as destructive as Rudra, and like Mahakal, everything that he touched was engulfed in oblivion. Baba Fateh Singh was like Kali on the field, and he destroyed Mughals like Kali destroyed the demons spawned from Rakat Bij's blood. Baba Fateh Singh was so skilled in shastar vidya that it seemed that, like Durga, he had many arms each holding a death-dealing weapon. When Baba Fateh Singh struck a Mughal with his sword, it was as if a great tower had been felled by a bolt of Indra's lightning.

Yet, Baba Fateh Singh was greater than all of these Devis and Devatas.

Ya dig?

Kaljug.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

The Khalsa Fauj writes:

This is a completely stupid thing to say. You cannot break rehat if you don't follow it in the first place. Kurehit != paap.

They are not worthy of worship, Gurbani tell us this, but the shabads you quote do not say any such thing. I actually agree with you on this issue, but I am pointing out that your quotes are completely irrelevant to this issue.

No, it's not the central message. Read the whole shabad.

Firstly, I didn't compare Sahibzada Fateh Singh to Shiva. Secondly, your reasoning is fatuous and your logic faulty. Let me give you a more homely example of how a simile works:

The opponent I fought in an NHB match this week was as strong as a bull. However, he did not chew crud and he did not have horns. He was as big as a house, but we was sorely lacking in windows and he did not buzz when I pressed his nose with my fist. He was as slippery as a snake, but when we all went out for a meal afterwards, he did not swallow his food whole.

Similarly, there is nothing offensive to say that, when Baba Fateh Singh fought, he was as destructive as Rudra, and like Mahakal, everything that he touched was engulfed in oblivion. Baba Fateh Singh was like Kali on the field, and he destroyed Mughals like Kali destroyed the demons spawned from Rakat Bij's blood. Baba Fateh Singh was so skilled in shastar vidya that it seemed that, like Durga, he had many arms each holding a death-dealing weapon. When Baba Fateh Singh struck a Mughal with his sword, it was as if a great tower had been felled by a bolt of Indra's lightning.

Yet, Baba Fateh Singh was greater than all of these Devis and Devatas.

Ya dig?

Kaljug.

I understand what you are trying to get at but the quotes used are integral to the shabads. Central message of every shabad is basically singing the praises of one God. That doesn't give us an option to ignore the rest of the content in the shabad. We must understand the whole shabad and learn wisdom of Gurmat. I still wouldn't use kaali or mahakaal or Shiv to compare Sikh shaheeds.

Also, paap is paap. Doesn't matter if someone has taken Amrit or not. If a person isn't Amritdhari, doesn't mean the person is free to do paap. Lekha of everything is taken into account by God. If we go by no such thing as paap until Amrit, do whatever and take Amrit when the person is like 55 or 60 which is what Punjabis tend to do. This is why Sikhi hasn't been able to spread because there aren't many that follow it enough to spread it.

Other than that, I can't do much about na maanu, kabee naa maanu birtee of anyone. I have given 5 shabads about Shiv so rest is up to sangat to decide for themselves.

[Kaljug]

The Khalsa Fauj:

I understand what you are trying to get at but the quotes used are integral to the shabads. Central message of every shabad is basically singing the praises of one God. That doesn't give us an option to ignore the rest of the content in the shabad. We must understand the whole shabad and learn wisdom of Gurmat. I still wouldn't use kaali or mahakaal or Shiv to compare Sikh shaheeds.

Think of the compasrison this way: in the times of the Gurus, the greatest things that the common Indian man or woman could imagine were these very Devis and Devatas who were held in awe and sometimes fear. They were considered to be greater than the natural forces (fire, lighning, death, etc) that they represent. Some Hindus may not have seen death or a truly terrible lightning storm, but all of them would have heard of Mahakal and Indra. It is befitting of the greatness of the Sahibzadas and the Jungee Khalsa that their qualities were compared with the qualities of divine beings and not just of common natural creatures like crocodiles or tigers.

Also, paap is paap. Doesn't matter if someone has taken Amrit or not. If a person isn't Amritdhari, doesn't mean the person is free to do paap. Lekha of everything is taken into account by God. If we go by no such thing as paap until Amrit, do whatever and take Amrit when the person is like 55 or 60 which is what Punjabis tend to do. This is why Sikhi hasn't been able to spread because there aren't many that follow it enough to spread it.

My point was that kurehit has a different meaning to paap. Cutting hair or smoking tobacco is not paap unless you have partaken of Khande de Pahul. But adultery is a paap for anyone, Sikh or not.

Regards,

K.

[Matheen]

My point was that kurehit has a different meaning to paap. Cutting hair or smoking tobacco is not paap unless you have partaken of Khande de Pahul. But adultery is a paap for anyone, Sikh or not.

Regards,

K.

Sorrty, OT but, the injunction against all forms of tobacco applies to everyone - I don't remember the exact words but will try to find them.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Think of the compasrison this way: in the times of the Gurus, the greatest things that the common Indian man or woman could imagine were these very Devis and Devatas who were held in awe and sometimes fear. They were considered to be greater than the natural forces (fire, lighning, death, etc) that they represent. Some Hindus may not have seen death or a truly terrible lightning storm, but all of them would have heard of Mahakal and Indra. It is befitting of the greatness of the Sahibzadas and the Jungee Khalsa that their qualities were compared with the qualities of divine beings and not just of common natural creatures like crocodiles or tigers.

Well, my main point was that Sahibzadas were much greater spiritually than Shiv or Brahmaa or Vishnu so that was my point and you said you agree with that so there is no chakkar. However, I am not sure how Shiv was devine or how kali is divine. Crocodile acts like a crocodile, tiger acts like a tiger but Shiv being a human, didn't act like a human. He was basically:

Kartoot Pasoo Kee Maanas Jaat

He also chopped of head of his own son in anger other than killing the son of poor merchant. Mind has to be prepared to go into war and fight in war. There has to be will inside to fight. Stories and comparisons alone don't turn cowards into warriors because if they did, Hindus had a lot more stories than Sikhs. Sikhs relied on Guru's Shabad and Gurmat to get the inner strength needed to fight in war and achieve victory. They had marytdoms of Guru Arjan, Guru Tegh Bahadur, Sahibzadas and Sikhs to look forward to as encouragement. However, encouragement alone doesn't get the job done. Inner strength is needed too. You might encourage someone to go into war and prepare them with lots of history but if the person gets fear at first sights of dead bodies or weapons, the person will be done. All the preparation will go useless so inner stregth is as important as encouragement.

Regarding Bajjar Kurehits, they are just that. Bajjar kurehits. Everyone must avoid them. Hindu or Sikh or Muslim or Christian or whomever because if a person believes in God, person must also keep hair to accept hukam of God.

Intoxicants corrupt the mind so they must also be avoided to prevent damage due to influence from intoxicants.

Fornication and adultery must be kept away from to keep honor, trust and loyalty.

Killing animal slowly by making it suffer is also very evil. This must also be avoided. Guru Nanak encouraged Muslims to stop cutting hair and stop doing halal as written in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

[Kaljug]

Guru Nanak encouraged Muslims to stop cutting hair and stop doing halal as written in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

That's interesting.

Where are these shabads?

Regards,

K.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

That's interesting.

Where are these shabads?

Regards,

K.

Please read Maaru Mahala 5va on Pg. 1083 and Mahla 1 on Pg. 140 and Pg. 141.

Those shabads tell us about proper Halal, proper nevaaj, etc. etc.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

History of turban is very old in Asia. People have been wearing turbans for thousands of years. During the Mughal empire, rulers started to wear turban as a symbol of their crown. Many people wore it as a part of their self respect and as a symbol of supporting the practice of good virtues. It was also worn as a right and symbol of freedom to stand up against tyrany. During the Mughal rule, everyone was totally prohibited from wearing a turban other than Muslims. Muslim rulers and religious hierarchy declared the turban to be their crown (Symbol of State Power). They also initiated harsh rules upon non-Muslims which led to harsh punishsments upon them. They were even put to death for wearing their turban and keeping long hair. Religious leaders and Mullas (religious priests) used to issue these orders. Violations of human rights were so rampant that they are hard to describe. Non Muslims were even robbed of their hard earned money. They were deprived of the basic needs of life. Everyone who dared to speak out againt these injustices was harshly dealt with and eliminated.

People of all walks of life were terrified and extremely upset over these injustices. No one had the courage to speak out against these human rights violations. This task was undertaken by Guru Nanak who is known as a crusader for human rights and values. He advocated the cause of humanity without any discrimination based on color, race, caste or creed. His fifth successor, Guru Arjan, was martyred for this global thought of human rights and values.

This global thought embraces humanity without discrimination based upon color, race, caste or creed. It exhorts every male and female to live with diginity and without discrimination on the basis of gender. Below is a hymn composed by Guru Arjan which emphasizes this philiosphy. This hymn is taken from page 97 of Guru Granth Sahib.

ਸਭੇ ਸਾਝੀਵਾਲ ਸਦਾਇਨਿ ਤੂੰ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥

Translation: O Brother! I consider all beings on this earth as mine; all of them are partners (equal). O God! I consider all of them to be your creation and every one should have equal rights without discrimination.

Guru Arjan, the prophet of human rights who gave this slogan, was made to suffer severe torture. He embraced martyrdom when he was forced to sit on a hot plate while hot sand was also being poured on his head. This occurred because he spoke against tyrany and injustices committed on non-Muslims. Some of the rights he spoke in favor of were the ability to keep hair and wear turban. He also spoke against the exploitation of non-Muslims. In the dialogue below with Muslim leaders, he brought the violations of human rights to the knowledge of the rulers and also emphasized the importance of hair and turban. Hymn below is present on page 1083-84 of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

ਅਲਹ ਅਗਮ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਬੰਦੇ ॥ ਛੋਡਿ ਖਿਆਲ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਕੇ ਧੰਧੇ ॥

ਹੋਇ ਪੈ ਖਾਕ ਫਕੀਰ ਮੁਸਾਫਰੁ ਇਹੁ ਦਰਵੇਸੁ ਕਬੂਲੁ ਦਰਾ ॥੧॥

ਸਚੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਯਕੀਨ ਮੁਸਲਾ ॥ ਮਨਸਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਹੁ ਆਸਾ ॥

ਦੇਹ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਮਉਲਾਣਾ ਕਲਮ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਪਾਕੁ ਖਰਾ ॥੨॥

ਸਰਾ ਸਰੀਅਤਿ ਲੇ ਕੰਮਾਵਹੁ ॥ ਤਰੀਕਤਿ ਤਰਕ ਖੋਜਿ ਟੋਲਾਵਹੁ ॥

ਮਾਰਫਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਹੁ ਅਬਦਾਲਾ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਹਕੀਕਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਨ ਮਰਾ ॥੩॥

ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਦਿਲ ਮਾਹਿ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥ ਦਸ ਅਉਰਾਤ ਰਖਹੁ ਬਦ ਰਾਹੀ ॥

ਪੰਚ ਮਰਦ ਸਿਦਕਿ ਲੇ ਬਾਧਹੁ ਖੈਰਿ ਸਬੂਰੀ ਕਬੂਲ ਪਰਾ ॥੪॥

ਮਕਾ ਮਿਹਰ ਰੋਜਾ ਪੈ ਖਾਕਾ ॥ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਪੀਰ ਲਫਜ ਕਮਾਇ ਅੰਦਾਜਾ ॥

ਹੂਰ ਨੂਰ ਮੁਸਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇਆ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਅਲਹ ਆਲਾ ਹੁਜਰਾ ॥੫॥

ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਾਜੀ ॥ ਜੋ ਦਿਲੁ ਸੋਧੈ ਸੋਈ ਹਾਜੀ ॥

ਸੋ ਮੁਲਾ ਮਲਊਨ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ਸੋ ਦਰਵੇਸੁ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਧਰਾ ॥੬॥

ਸਭੇ ਵਖਤ ਸਭੇ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਲਾ ॥ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਯਾਦਿ ਦਿਲੈ ਮਹਿ ਮਉਲਾ ॥

ਤਸਬੀ ਯਾਦਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਸ ਮਰਦਨੁ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਬੰਧਾਨਿ ਬਰਾ ॥੭॥

ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਸਭ ਫਿਲਹਾਲਾ ॥ ਖਿਲਖਾਨਾ ਬਿਰਾਦਰ ਹਮੂ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥

ਮੀਰ ਮਲਕ ਉਮਰੇ ਫਾਨਾਇਆ ਏਕ ਮੁਕਾਮ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਦਰਾ ॥੮॥

ਅਵਲਿ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਦੂਜੀ ਸਾਬੂਰੀ ॥ ਤੀਜੈ ਹਲੇਮੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਖੈਰੀ ॥

ਪੰਜਵੈ ਪੰਜੇ ਇਕਤੁ ਮੁਕਾਮੈ ਏਹਿ ਪੰਜਿ ਵਖਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਪਰਪਰਾ ॥੯॥

ਸਗਲੀ ਜਾਨਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਮਉਦੀਫਾ ॥ ਬਦ ਅਮਲ ਛੋਡਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਥਿ ਕੂਜਾ ॥

ਖੁਦਾਇ ਏਕੁ ਬੁਝਿ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਬਾਂਗਾਂ ਬੁਰਗੂ ਬਰਖੁਰਦਾਰ ਖਰਾ ॥੧੦॥

ਹਕੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਬਖੋਰਹੁ ਖਾਣਾ ॥ ਦਿਲ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਧੋਵਹੁ ਮੈਲਾਣਾ ॥

ਪੀਰੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਭਿਸਤੀ ਸੋਈ ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਨ ਦੋਜ ਠਰਾ ॥੧੧॥

ਕਾਇਆ ਕਿਰਦਾਰ ਅਉਰਤ ਯਕੀਨਾ ॥ ਰੰਗ ਤਮਾਸੇ ਮਾਣਿ ਹਕੀਨਾ ॥

ਨਾਪਾਕ ਪਾਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹਦੀਸਾ ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਦਸਤਾਰ ਸਿਰਾ ॥੧੨॥

Meaning: (He addressed the Mughal rulers and religious priests) Oh brother! Allah is beyond description; all of us belong to God. You should discard all those laws that you have made to protect only yourself. These violate basic human rights. Do not violate the human rights of humanity using these laws. You should know that you are only a guest in this world. Give up your own ego and accept God as the Ruler because all are subjects of God and thus are equal. Stop your immoral designs; put your faith in truth and earn respect and credibility for yourself; surrender yourself to God; make your body a Mosque of God. Bring your faith on truth and use this as your prayer mat. Make God’s praise as the ruler of your mind; whose rule is good and forever true. God’s praise is to treat everyone equal and to not hinder them from preforming their rights. Also make this your religious code of conduct (Sharia Law). Live upto this tradition and give up your erratic thinking and spiritual education; understand the reality by eliminating the wrong egotistic thinking. The whole world is the creation of God; God’s creation is not limited to anyone.

(Thus do not be cruel to God’s people and do not violate the human rights.)

Does the Quran, which is the basis of your life, only give you the right to live?

Stop your self from the evil thinking of your mind which makes you steal the rights of others. This can only be accomplished if you control your five evils: lust, anger, greed, worldly attachments and ego. With the discipline of enternal truth, stop yourself from evil deeds and consider the rights of others as equally important.

The Mecca which you consider the symbol of God’s love and enlightenment, do you speak and live accordingly to that understanding? Rather, you are making a joke of that love and affection. God’s worship is extremely beautiful which distributes the aroma of love leading to destruction of jealousy and hatred. You use the name of Allah as a tool and instead of love and affection, you are violating human rights. Such a person is a holy person who recognizes the real truth and lives a truthful life. He is a Haji (visitor of Mecca) who corrects his thoughts, gives up ego, and adopts brotherhood of peace in this world created by God (his coming into this world is then accepted).

He is a real Mulla who becomes humble and worships the True God and educates himself about spirituality, stays away from evil deeds, and does not mislead others. A true Mulla also stops others from doing wrong deeds such as violations of human rights. He always remembers that all of humanity is the creation of God. A true Mulla propagates this thinking so that all of humanity lives together in peace and harmony. When you repeat the name of Allah according to Muslim code of conduct (e.g. Tasbi) you call him the provider of Justice. Accept good moral conduct as your curcumcition. You should become brave and adopt this character by advocating justice against inhumanity. Do you consider everyone as a part of your brotherhood. All of the worldly kings are not the real kings because they violate human rights of others due to their arrogance. They themselves are doomed and it is only God who is everlasting. Have courage to explain this to the worldly kings; only then can you call yourself a real Judge or religious person.

NOTE: By prohibiting the right of keeping uncut hair and turban, you are violating the human rights of the people. You consider turban to be a symbol of your state of power and hair as symbol of your masculinity. First understand the significance of hair and turban.

Firstly, a person who wears a turban is to always remember God who is the creator of this universe. Secondly, such a person is content and thirdly is humble. In other words, a person should be tollerent of others. Fourthly, he wishes the well being of everyone in his heart. The fifth quality is wisdom. Use wisdom to adopt these qualities and balance your thoughts along with maintaining high moral standarads. With sincerety and discipline, give up the bad deeds which rob the others of their rights. Seek to have the good habits by always remembering God. Not only that, consider all of humanity as equal. Advocate this truth that all of humanity is created by God who is the greatest and divine. Therefore, do not deprive the poor of their rightous earning (halal) so live honestly as it is respectable and honorable (this is the real method of performing halal). One who recognizes the truth accepts this world as heaven as the Creator is omnipresent. On the otherhand, you yourself consider yourself Almighty and pass judgements against others.

Consider yourself as a good soul and be loyal to God and God’s people. Prohibit yourself from violating the rights of others and change your evil intentions. As a symbol of that divine thought, keep your hair uncut. Wear your turban as a symbol of self-respect. (Everyone should have the right to wear a turban without any discrimination of race, color, caste or creed so that people can promote virtues by wearing it).

Guru Arjan, the prophet of human rights and peaceful means, was thus killed through means of inhumane torture by making him sit on a hot plate and pouring hot sand on his head. Society as a whole should be proud of the sacrfices for humanity. Now we must take steps to ensure that we do not lead into simalar situations witnessed in the ancient times. This is a part of our gloriouse history for which not only the Sikhs but every peace loving person should feel proud of.

In the end, society today needs such people who follow these virtues more than ever. A Turban wearing person is a crusader for human rights and wishes well being of everyone.

Some questions arise:

1. Is the modern democracy opposed to the promoters of human rights (Sikhs) having the right to wear their turban?

2. If yes, then is it worth calling it a democracy?

3. If the answer to the above question is yes, then is this democracy not similar to the tyrants of the past? Is it not supportive of the regimes that forced innocents to sit on a hot plates and behead those who exercise their right to wear a turban?

Same argument that was presented to the rulers of ancient times is also before the modern world of today which claims to be a protector of human rights. Depriving Sikhs from wearing their turbans is equvilent to the rulers of ancient times that made Guru Arjan sit on a hot plate. Is this kind of behaviour acceptable in the modern free world? Which actions will the modern democratic bodies take? Will they permit peace loving people around the world to wear their turbans or will they violate human rights by implementing a ban on wearing turbans.

To deprive a Sikh of his right to wear a turban is equivalent to killing him by forcing him to sit on hot plate. Prohibiting innocent people from wearing turbans denies their basic human rights such as education, employment and other elements of life. We sincerely hope that the United Nations takes steps towards lifting this ban and setting an example for future generations to look back upon.

With Thanks,

Baldev Singh (Rexdale, Brampton)

[Kaljug]

Sorrty, OT but, the injunction against all forms of tobacco applies to everyone - I don't remember the exact words but will try to find them.

Matheen ji,

I would be interested to see the exact words you are talking about. It doesn't make much sense to me for the rehat maryada to be enforced on everyone and not just Sikhs who had chak Amrit.

K.

[khalsa_tiger]

Matheen ji,

I would be interested to see the exact words you are talking about. It doesn't make much sense to me for the rehat maryada to be enforced on everyone and not just Sikhs who had chak Amrit.

K.

wjkk wjifateh (m new i dont no english i no only punjabi n italian)

i learn always books on sikhism n also i did read a book on this article,this is a most important but aaj this question is normally sikhism vich milda.i dont answer ur qst but do a question if amrit isn't important why guru guru gobind singh ji ne amrit shkayea n fer thts 5 piyarean ton aap shakeya?why?oh pagal si (sry for use this word)tht wz our guru.n also guru gobind singh ji amrit shakan ton baad uhnaa ne apne naam naal singh laeya tht a point but aaj saare apne naam pishe singh layi firde aa singh means sher te aaj ta darpokaan de naam naal vi singh....!!!

wjkk wjkfateh