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Shooting In A Gurdwara In Vienna


Mithar

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Kam veer can we get some sort of response from sant samaj since sri akaal takth sahib already called killing of this baba (pakhandi or not) inhuman?.

It's very interesting to see reactions from youths and hate mongers who incite violence, despite of sri akaal takth sahib condemnation to this horrible inhuman act, it appears youths use sri akaal takth sahib status token whenever it suits their cause like- parchar against kala afghana types, prof darshan singh on issue of sri dasam granth sahib but when their violent fascist ideology gets challenged they don't give two hoots about sri akaal takth sahib. Like hindus have street mobs, muslims have talibans. We have our own set of amritdhari mobs, only difference is most of our mobs are more on the cyber space than in real life. Let's just hope they stay on the internet instead of branding their kirpans in real life making a living hell for rest of sikhs out here abroad. All these mobs from all communities including ravidasa where ever they are should be held accountable for any kind inciting violence against innocents, misinterpretations of events- due to misinterpretation two countries can go for war and cause many civilian causalities.

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Does anyone actually know who killed him and for what reason. With respect, I think its best to wait for results of investigations to come out before jumping to conclusions that it was carried out by people following a 'violent fascist ideology' and referring to them as 'extremist hostile elements'.

Of course people arent gonna give two hoots about what the Akal Takht leaders say because they have shown themselves to be nothing more than a rubber stamp for Badal party. From Sucha Sauda to Dasam bani, to the recent beadbis in Harimandir Sahib and Akal Takht, they have showed their inability to represent the wishes of the Sikh masses and deal with a problem, such that even in the current election Badal was able to go and seek support from Gurmit Ram Rahim. There was a time when the Jathedar of Akal Takht, Akali Phula Singh, issued an edict stating that Maharaj Runjeet Singh was a tankhaeea - even his own Sikh serviceman refused to talk to him until he sought forgiveness from the Akal Takht. If the Akal Takht leadership continued to have this much respect we would probably not have many of the problems we do today. Then again the maryada for Akal Takht in those days was that you were only allowed to sit in Akal Takht in Bir Asan and shastardhari. Now one is not permitted to do seva in there unless they are wearing a pyjami and it would appear unless they have a waist line greater than 40inches.

I do hope the situation calms down, if Saroops of Maharaj have been burnt on the streets then we all know the situation is going to get a lot more violent before theres any signs of peace.

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This is exactly why backward casteism needs to be destroyed!

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I am pro-caste, I find they work better than braces.

Now that I have had my kicks, I think that removal of the caste system is just as unfruitful and counterproductive to the real issue as regimenting it is. This is a class issue. Chamaars/ravidasi's are not necessarily all leather workers per se. They represent a group that has felt ostracized and subjugated to the oppression of the so-called 'higher' castes. Eliminating castes or identities in themselves will not solve the problem. The attitude and behaviours that so called higher caste people feel they inherently have (for whatever reason it may be, be it by birthright or their socio-economic status) needs to be checked by a change in social paradigm...even then, those who are in any political position will utilize these diifferences or create new ones.

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The messed up thing is, the way non-caste obsessed Sikhs have to tip toe around the issue. Sad fact is, many "higher castes" (mainly but not exclusively Jatts) behave very similar to the way white Southern trash did towards blacks in America not long ago.

Anyone who is familiar with this should know that this is an actively fostered mentallity within certain strains of "Sikhs". Teh plain fact is, if we go down this route, we may as well kiss goodbye to any attempt to portray the Sikh faith/people as progressive, tolerant and positive.

Drawof, I agree that people will find other ways to try and exclude and oppress, but that does not mean that we do not fight the current method. Maybe it is better we attack this injustice in all its forms, however it tries to manifest itself. AN ongoing battle for justice.

Barring that, I am fast losing any faith I had in Jatt Sikhs. They seem to be tearing up Panjab and the panth more than any chuhray/chumaars right now.

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I posted this on sikhsangat.

There seems to be a lot of misinformation and just plain rumours being posted here. The Indian media is having a hayday promoting the situation as a Jat vs Dalit issue when it clearly isn't.

Ravidassi Sikh

There is NO such thing as a Ravidassi Sikh. Sikhs who were formerly Hindu chamars but converted to Sikhism are referred to as RAMDASIA Sikhs. This is because Sikhism under Guru Ram Das saw the maximum conversion of Hindu Chamars to Sikhism.

Ravidassis are a seperate community who are Hindu Chamars mainly from Doaba who have benefitted from the reservations systems to gain jobs based on their caste origins and not on their merit. The Ravidassi movement is not a religious movement but a movement aimed at strengthening Hindu Chamars by using Sikhs symbols and Bhagat Ravidass's name. Depending on the situation, a Ravidassi will refer to himself as a Hindu and sometimes as a Sikh but they have never been enumerated as Sikhs by the Indian census authorities. So to all those Sikhs who seem worried that this is Sikh on Sikh violence, be clear this is not. The people who rioted in Jalandhar are just the usual idiots who will riot at the most minor incidents and who use the riot as a means to loot. The Akali government has let down the Punjab once again, two years ago they allowed the Sirsa saadh's followers to riot in Bathinda and when the Sikhs responded and tried to march on the dera the government reacted and called the Police and army out. I have just seen video of the riots and it showed people breaking windows of buses and a policeman was pleading with them to stop. What happened to shoot on sight orders which happens anytime there is a riot. Badal by his inaction is again making the situation worse because these rioters will think that they can get away with their violence.

The Ballan Dera is by no means the spokesman for the Ravidassi community. The sprouting of other Ravidassi deras is financied by Ravidassis from UK and US/Canada. There is nothing wrong with Ravidassi if they want that to be their religious identity and want to follow some dambhis but they should be aware that beadi to Guru Granth Sahib will always get a reaction from Sikhs.

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Fateh!

There's an article on langarhall.com (by someone called Jodha) that has an interesting perspective on why it is not in the best interest of the political elite and the ruling majority in India (and in Punjab) for the Dalits to join the ranks of Sikhi:

http://thelangarhall.com/archives/3358

I feel that, once the chaos and bad feelings have died down, there should be parchaar done to try to reach out to these Ravidasi Sikhs and bring them into the fold of mainstream Sikhi, with pyaar and understanding not by picking off their leaders one by one.

After all, their practices are not too different to those that you can see in any mainstream gurdwara, and their spirituality will only be enriched by placing as much emphasis on the bani of the Gurus and the other Bhagats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib as they do on the words of Sri Ravidas Ji.

Of course, their acceptance into the Panth may mean that we may have to broaden the definition of Sikh (or at least tolerate their traditional practices like Ravidas murti puja in their homes for a while), and unfortunately the trend is the last century or so has been to increasingly restrict the usage of the word Sikh to a relatively small population of people. Their presence in the Panth will certainly enrich it, but there will be some already in the Panth who will not be able to tolerate the loss of their privileged position.

K.

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I posted this on sikhsangat.

There seems to be a lot of misinformation and just plain rumours being posted here. The Indian media is having a hayday promoting the situation as a Jat vs Dalit issue when it clearly isn't.

Ravidassi Sikh

There is NO such thing as a Ravidassi Sikh. Sikhs who were formerly Hindu chamars but converted to Sikhism are referred to as RAMDASIA Sikhs. This is because Sikhism under Guru Ram Das saw the maximum conversion of Hindu Chamars to Sikhism.

Ravidassis are a seperate community who are Hindu Chamars mainly from Doaba who have benefitted from the reservations systems to gain jobs based on their caste origins and not on their merit. The Ravidassi movement is not a religious movement but a movement aimed at strengthening Hindu Chamars by using Sikhs symbols and Bhagat Ravidass's name. Depending on the situation, a Ravidassi will refer to himself as a Hindu and sometimes as a Sikh but they have never been enumerated as Sikhs by the Indian census authorities. So to all those Sikhs who seem worried that this is Sikh on Sikh violence, be clear this is not. The people who rioted in Jalandhar are just the usual idiots who will riot at the most minor incidents and who use the riot as a means to loot. The Akali government has let down the Punjab once again, two years ago they allowed the Sirsa saadh's followers to riot in Bathinda and when the Sikhs responded and tried to march on the dera the government reacted and called the Police and army out. I have just seen video of the riots and it showed people breaking windows of buses and a policeman was pleading with them to stop. What happened to shoot on sight orders which happens anytime there is a riot. Badal by his inaction is again making the situation worse because these rioters will think that they can get away with their violence.

The Ballan Dera is by no means the spokesman for the Ravidassi community. The sprouting of other Ravidassi deras is financied by Ravidassis from UK and US/Canada. There is nothing wrong with Ravidassi if they want that to be their religious identity and want to follow some dambhis but they should be aware that beadi to Guru Granth Sahib will always get a reaction from Sikhs.

That's a very interesting post Tony Jee. This perspective is based on ground realiy in Punjab right now instead of the usual "Jatts are evil" posts. I'm against caste, but lets be clear here, this issue has nothing to do with Jatts vs Chamars. The Chamars in this case are Ravidasias who are mainly concentrated in Doaba. They do not consider the 10 Gurus as their Gurus, they only consider Bhagat Ravidas Jee as SatGuru, they never add Singh to their name. Since the start, they have never identified themselves as Sikhs on the census. The Sikh Chamars are different, they are concentrated all over Punjab, and not just Doaba. The Sikh and Hindu Chamars are almost as different from one another as Sikh and Hindu Jats.

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Dalsingh,

I see your perspective, although I do not agree with it. I feel people are equipped and have the right to be be labelled as they want to be. I see the elimination of caste being an attack on identity. The 'beloved' Gandhi called scheduled castes 'hari-jans'.....That's great! they went from one label to the next. There is a larger economic environment that should be intelligently reviewed and the notion of caste within that should be rechecked. The oppression that the 'low' castes feel is being heard because they now have a voice through policies in punjab that have given them special benefits. I don't feel that this is just a caste issue at all because each group is somewhere on the pecking order. If you talk to any urbanite....they use the term 'jatkay, jatwair, and say jattni' when they want to address something in a derogatory way. Similarly, Village folks will say 'chuhray/chamaar'...On that note, the modern day 'chuhray/chamaar' are not people of those respective castes but the 'bhaiyay'. In summation, empowering a group would work if we become inclusive in our approach towards them. I don't feel sikhs, as a religious group, can do much to eliminate casteism apart from making sure that caste isn't a barrier to anything that any other sikh has access to. The translation of that acceptance in a wider society is the issue

also, I'm interested in how jatts are ruining panjab and the panth? (I am interested in your perspective).

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Some guy posted this on ss.com

I can answer that for you.

A week ago at the same "gurdwara" in vienna there was some beadbi taking place.

A Ravidassi man was washing his feet in the same room as the SGGS.

A sikh approached him to stop this beadbi taking place.

The sikh was set upon by many worshippers and brutally beaten.

All this took place in the presence of Rama Nand who was there preaching. He did nothing to stop this brutal beating.

The Sikh man was admitted to hospital because of his injuries.

I know this, because the same Sikh man died in hospital today as a result of his injuries.

Rama Nand was shot a week later by sikhs who went in to punish him for allowing Beadbi of SGGS to take place and also for not stopping the brutal beating of the Sikh man who was attacked for speaking out against beadbi.

That was his Rama Nand's crime. That warranted his death.

This story can be confirmed by asking sikhs in vienna.

Any more questions?

Another person gave his own opnion why killing was justified. Here is what he had to say:

SunnySinghDoad

This person, Ramanand, was killed for the right reasons, a few points.

1. Considered himself to be a Guru.

2. Ramanand came to UK a few years ago. He came to a Ravidassi temple in Southall and made people bow at his feet with Guru Maharaj being present. Guru Maharaj's saroop was placed alongside idols. When Singhs objected to Ramanand, he got them encircled and threatened by his chelas.

3. My good friend from Italy told me, that a while back, just before his killing, Ramanand had come to Italy for the opening ceremony of a Ravidassi Temple. In that temple there are pictures of Bhagat Ravidass alongside prakash of Guru Maharaj.

I'm sure there are many other things aswell, which we should know soon.

Bhul Chuk Maaf,

WJKK WJKF

I invite the person who write this to engage in sensible discussion here, may be someone can send him a pm there.

1. There are multiple meanings of guru in gurbani. It's been used in three different context.

2. If this indeed happened, it's wrong. My question here comes down to, how come sevadars in southall who confronted him - didn't contacted sri akaal takth sahib jathedar sahiab. In the past, same sevadars had no problem contacting sri akaal takth sahib for other issues like- hakumnama against taking sri guru granth sahib ji in halls. Who authorize this group involved in this to carried out killing? If this baba is labeled as self styled guru then this group on the same token can be labeled as self styled panthic group without any guidance or authorized by any panthic body.

Lets give that group benefit of the doubt this baba was pakhandi and did beadhi of maharaj. Lets compare this suitation with narinder grewal cult in toronto. There is huge difference between the actions of sevadars here in toronto and so called self styled sevadar in this incident. Actions of singhs in toronto during maha beadi of sri guru granth sahib ji by narinder grewal was much more controlled and collective and sri akaal takth sahib was involved. Authorities were notified, this grewal got charged for hurting core values of sikh panth, his dera got shut down, he was kicked out from Canada. One may argue, he is still doing his parchar but this guy in dera sachkhand is not, he cannot , he got death.

I ask everyone whats the best way to tackle hostile cult leaders doing beadhi of maharaj?

a. Kill guru of an cult in front of thousands of his followers- makes him shahid infront of their eyes which will lead thousands of more non followers join this cult because how they felt this dera was vicitimized by fundamentalist group.

b. Systemically, tackle their parchar get their dera shut down abroad, contact proper authorities prove how they hurting sentiments of sikh sangat world wide and engage with offical body of sikhs- Sri Akaal takth sahib for possible solution.

Last but not least:

3. This is bit silly, there is nothing wrong with having picture of bhagat ravidas in the same darbar where parkash of sri guru granth sahib ji is held. Many samparda's have done this before with their own sant mahapursh, no objections then. After all, bhagat ravidasa bani is parvan in sri guru granth sahib ji. Bhagat ravidasa ji is jot shabad roop cannot be separated from sri guru granth sahib ji, they are one.!

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Obviously, the place this killing occurred is not in India. I hope to see full impartial investigation in this, what exactly happened? What's strange about the above story by ak47 jathalion is - week before there was no news about sikh being beaten at the dera and dying in the hospital.

From close to 200 replies on that thread, at the end it's hard to see who's telling the truth and who's not?

But so far party that have justified the killing of this baba (pakhandi or not) failed to provide or convince others(based on their reply) that killing of this baba was justified let alone innocent people being hurt in this incident.

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Drawof,

I agree that self definition is important. I have no problem with people defining themselves in this way. My issue is with the fostered hatred that is ingrained within certain strains of the Sikh community. I don't really care if someone calls themselves Jatt myself, but I do feel ashamed when I see Sikhs hating and oppressing one another. Do you undrestand this?

There is a larger economic environment that should be intelligently reviewed and the notion of caste within that should be rechecked.

I disagree strongly, I don't think this issue boils down primarily to economics, although I can see why this conclusion would be easy to draw if we just look at India/Panjab. You can see this when you meet people in the diaspora from say a Jat background, who encounters a so called low caste who is infinitely more successful than them. It is a cultural mindset, that has been drummed into them that makes them hatefilled. This is plain old supremacist thinking. Exactly like what was [is?] common in the Southern states of America by some whites towards blacks. Even a poor trailer trash white person feels they are inherently superior to say a middle class black family because of what has been pumped into their head.

The issue is with how many Jatts raise their children, this is what needs to be addressed. Not any socio-economic factors. The only economic aspect of this I can see, is the use of this engineered antipathy to ensure that so called "low castes" do not get access to land, facilities etc. to keep the Jatts "on top." Excessively materialism being at the core of modern day Jatt culture may be a contributing factor but only a small one. I think set, ancient attitudes are being play out here.

This type of unbringing has the ultimate effect of dehumanising the other and projecting and perpetuating hostilities on social interaction that needn't be so. The use of labels you described for Jats is not really comparable to the systematic hatred and oppresion towards chuhray/chumars practiced by many (not all) Jatts.

The oppression that the 'low' castes feel is being heard because they now have a voice through policies in punjab that have given them special benefits

If things are being done to level the field, than this is for the better. I also understand not that peopel from "higher" castes will resent this. Personally I feel the uplifting of people regardless of background was a core feature of our Sikh culture. So this should be happening in Panjab more than anywhere else in India! To me the alternative boils down to being part of an unfair, oppressive, backward and savage people. That isn't what Sikhi is about. You said:

The translation of that acceptance in a wider society is the issue

And that is simply down to inbred, fostered hatred which results in exclusion. It is the culture that dehumanises with notions of inherant superiority. Some of us in the diaspora have some experience with seeing this in practice with other extreme communities (such as the NF).

Jatts need to do some soul searching, and realise that many of the cultural norms in their society starkly reject and contest the egalitarian notions within Sikhi. As an individual you have to ask, which way do I want to go?

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Whoever did this, did not do the Khalistani cause or wider panth any favours. If anything it will push the message that Sikhs are indeed a savage bunch of animals that need supressing.

Given that we are days away from the 25th anniversary of 1984, I couldn't think of a dumber thing to do by a Sikh. You could understand if say KPS Gill or Brar was targetted. But this............

You couldn't have given the enemies of the Sikhs a better scoop. Like the media doesn't get enough of portraying turbanned and bearded men as fundamentalists anyway.

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Dalsingh101

No offence but when was the last time you were in Punjab? I don't mean in some town or city like Ludhiana or Jullundur but in rural Punjab. It's all too easy to say that just because some idiot blasts 'putt jattan de' from his car stereo that Jats have a superiority complex and are driving away other castes from Sikhi.

FYI the chamars in Punjab be they Hindu or Sikh have jobs reserved for them in government service as well as in schools. They have places reserved for them in colleges and universities. If a daughter is born to a chamar the government gives them 5100 rupees. Chamars get their fees paid in school. Now this might have been a good way in which the differences in economic conditions between so-called higher and lower castes could have been bridged after 1947 but to have such a system still in existence even after the chamars have had over 50 years of positive discrimination is outrageous. You might live under the impression that all Jats are millionaires and all Chamars are living in hovels but this is not the case. The Jats are having a hard time eeking a living from the land whilst the Chamars through virtue of their being so-called lower caste get free atta and dal! The ironic thing is that those so-called lower castes who are worse of economically such as Chuhras are denied the same benefits of jobs and places in education by the chamar mafia who having got into positions of power make sure that Chamars get an undue share of the reservations pie.

You can say all you can against Jats but one thing that Jats have not tried to do but which other castes have done is to set up Gurdwaras that will only allow their own caste to hold the committee posts. Any non-Jat can become a member is a Gurdwara where the congregation is majority Jat and stand for office. It is up to him to garner the most votes. Given that Jats are accused of being so proud of their caste, is it not surprising that Jats do not as a rule become involved in sects outside the Sikh mainstream? Even in sects where the leader is a Jat, common Sikh Jats tend to steer clear of these sects as well. The leader of the Radhaswamis is a Jat, as is the leader of Dera Sacha Sauda yet Jats are very rarely their followers. Ironically it is the so-called lower castes who in the accepted discourse explaining their attachment to the sect is explained as an attempt to escape Jat 'oppression'. It is also not well known that even in the so-called 'Jat' Gurdwaras in the villages, the majority of the Granthis tend to be non-Jats.

Another example of where Jats differ from other castes is that we never associate those Sikhs who did so much for Sikhi by referring to their caste. Jats do not refer to Maharaja Ranjit Singh as a Jat Maharaja, neither do we refer to Baba Deep Singh as a Jat Shaheed. They are referred to a Sikh Maharaja and a Sikh Shaheed. Sant Bhindranwale is also never referred to as a Jat Shaheed either. Compare this with Ramgarhias who have turned the name of a Misl into a caste!

It's all very easy to accept the lazy excuse that Jat arrogance is the reason for non-Jats to gravitate towards sects on the fringes of Sikhism but the reason lies elsewhere.

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Tony ji

FYI the chamars in Punjab be they Hindu or Sikh have jobs reserved for them in government service as well as in schools. They have places reserved for them in colleges and universities. If a daughter is born to a chamar the government gives them 5100 rupees. Chamars get their fees paid in school. Now this might have been a good way in which the differences in economic conditions between so-called higher and lower castes could have been bridged after 1947 but to have such a system still in existence even after the chamars have had over 50 years of positive discrimination is outrageous.

I am all up for positve discrimination to uplift the oppressed so I don't see anything wrong with what you have described myself. But if you think that this has somehow levelled the field, you are living in la la land. The mental hatred perpetuated by Jat culture towards other 'castes' (esp. Churah and chumar) is unreal and something I dojn't undertsand fully. If you are 'dil da sacha', take off your blinkers and just look and ask. I am not saying all Jatts are doing this because some have imbibed the more enlightened message of Sikhi or more positive western liberal values that are in contradiction to this type of supremacist thinking. Besides, don't talk like Jats never got support throughout the green revolution Tony.

You might live under the impression that all Jats are millionaires and all Chamars are living in hovels but this is not the case. The Jats are having a hard time eeking a living from the land

I don't live under this impression!! I know full well that many Jatts in relative's pinds are dirt poor and barely surviving. Suicides are endemic apparently as is drug taking amongst the youth. But doesn't this even further highlight the ridiculous nature of 'modern day Jatt culture' which has Jats prancing around under the impression that they are the 'dogs gonads' whilst these things are going on in their own and the wider Panjabi community. Seriously, the majority of Jatts have issues acceping any responsibility for the state of Panjab despite their undeniable dominance there. If your styling yourselves as leaders and things are going down the potty, then who is to blame? In the west we would sa that we have ineffectve or corrupt leadership under such circs. Anyway, despite whatever you may say, there is clear exclusion at power levels and an attempt at hegemony in Panjab brother.

You can say all you can against Jats but one thing that Jats have not tried to do but which other castes have done is to set up Gurdwaras that will only allow their own caste to hold the committee posts.

Man, if you are saying certain Gurdwaras (mainly Singh Sabhas) have not been dominated by Jatt committees, then you must either be asleep or consciously hiding the truth. Just because they may not have JAT clearly stuck on a sign outside of the Gurdwara doesn't mean that they are not doing the caste thing, albeit more surreptitiously.

Given that Jats are accused of being so proud of their caste, is it not surprising that Jats do not as a rule become involved in sects outside the Sikh mainstream?

Do you actually believe this? Plenty of dera babas are Jatts and have been accused of all manner of things. Lets not rake up gundh though. That will make both of us feel sick.

It is also not well known that even in the so-called 'Jat' Gurdwaras in the villages, the majority of the Granthis tend to be non-Jats.

It is very well known .

Another example of where Jats differ from other castes is that we never associate those Sikhs who did so much for Sikhi by referring to their caste.

Go to the morons at jattworld.com and see just this.

It's all very easy to accept the lazy excuse that Jat arrogance is the reason for non-Jats to gravitate towards sects on the fringes of Sikhism but the reason lies elsewhere.

Jats have very good and bad characteristics. Bravery being a example of the former and excessive insularity the latter. This insularity is playing havoc in Sikhi today which was built on the premise of inclusion and is a straight meritocracy.

The saddest thing of all, is that the Sikh community as a whole has SO MUCH potential and we often fritter this away on a feudal based hierarchy we have imposed on ourselves. The real roots of this today is plain ego. All SIkhs, Jat or otherwise should be reflecting own what is going on in the world around us and flexibly adjust to uplift our own community instead of indulging in plain ego fuelled stratefication.

It is cool anyway, I know that any oppression will only last for a while anyway before God himself wil cause it to destroy itself. But that being said, I think Sikhs are at a crossroads. We all have deep questions to ask ourselves regarding which direction we should go in in future.

If any (sub)community has positive cultural contributions to make, share them and make this thing grow stronger. Consider giving up any perceived advantage and hegemony for something greater. That is the stuff nations are made of. I'm not sure if I expressed my point clearly here BTW.

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MLOL, Tonyhp - the 'Comical Ali' of the 'Jatt' world!

Although I agree with some of your points re the chumaar discrimination truths, your rose tinted view of Jat Panth is hilarious.

Jaath pride and discrimination is embedded into the majority of mainstream Jatts. There are Jatt Gurdwarai - under the 'disguise' of Singh Sabha. I have already provided a real life example of this in a previous post. At least the Ravidasi and Ramgharia committees don't work under pretense, even if they are wrong in their mindset (be it an equalising one).

How come nearly every Singh soorma from a Jatt backgrounds name is fully well known - i have even heard Gyanis on numerous occassions mentioning the gotra of various Shaheeds in our ithihaas. Ranjit Singh is every 'averagel' Jatts claim to fame!

I can't even be bothered to reply to the rest.

The only Punjabis, regardless of jaath, who are free from this disease, are those few anmol heerai who have totally absorbed the nishkaam essence of Bhai Ghanaiya. The sad reality is that even those devoted Jatts who preach absolute equality, be it in sex, race or jaath i.e. AKJ - are still handcuffed to their tribe - I have seen this many times in terms of trying help some Sikhs get married.

Tonyhp, I am afraid reality sucks!

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who shot him?

I got this from ss forum.

source: http://www.neverforget84.com/forum/khalist...ienna-p245.html

.

The Khalistan Zindabad Force, an active jujharoo jathebandi headed by Bhai Ranjeet Singh Neeta has claimed responsibility for the attack to various news outlets including Akash Radio (UK), Ajit Jalandhar & Jagbani in Punjab.

The motive is simple, Ramanand & Niranjan Das were involved in beadbi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and had previously been warned about their activites.

Parnaam to the ankheelay Singhs who risked their lives to protect the honour of Shri Guru Granth Sahib. We should learn from the Singhs and unite against all the pakhandi's who are hellbent on destroying Sikhi.

And Another person alias name- ak47 jatha lion posted the names of assassins:

OH, 2 of the main sikhs who carried out the asssination of Paapi Rama Nand have been named as:

Bhai Tarsem Singh 48

Bhai Yadhvinder Singh 27

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I just finished talking with this gurmukh who spoke against these two baba's insult towards sri guru nanak dev ji in form of parchar/vichar/discussions in Canada when they came here few years ago. As a result of debate with them, he bought many dera sachkhand followers into sikh fold. Even he was against killing of this pakhandi baba not because he does not believe in sipahihood of khalsa but because we live in day and age, it all comes down to image of sikhs, credibility infront of western world and main thing is bringing dalits into sikh panth. He said it would have been better if his parchar against sikh guru's were systemically exposed like gurmat ram rahim parchar against sikh guru's were exposed along with narinder grewal cult. People and authorities would have at least a chance to see him spewing gand against sri guru nanak dev ji. The outcome would have totally different by now either his dera would have get shut down by authorities abroad for inciting hate and hurting sentiments of sikhs or chelas or potential chelas who didn't get a chance to see these baba's true colors would have left him for good. All these people did now is made him some sort of hero in front of thousands of his misguided/potential followers. This is the worst thing anyone would have done especially if they are planning to bring ravidasasia dalits into khalsa sikhi fold.

In this day and age, anakh is not everything. I believe youths these days are highly driven by revenge, fanaticism, fascism and they will use of violence if things does not go in their way or thinking. Whilst you need anakh if you are doing parchar against hostile cults like dera sachkhand, you also need to study politics granths like- chanakyas and use the pen first instead of knife. As dalsingh rightly pointed out on ss, this is just pendu act period- plain and simple.

I hope people who support their actions of killing of this man will enjoy their dera sachkhand cult flourishing like it never did before.

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