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Shooting In A Gurdwara In Vienna


Mithar

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C'mon guys, let's not turn this into a caste war. We are all brothers. We all admit that caste based discrimination is wrong and not acceptible for a Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Jee.

My view is that yes, Jatts and other castes that are considered 'high' do discriminate against those they consider lower. Jatt's do it to both Churas and Chamars. The Churas are probably the most discriminated ones of all. These poor people are even discriminated by the Chamars. I've seen Chamars not considering Churas as their equals.

Point is that the least we as Amritdharis belonging to various different groups, Jathas, Sampradhas of the Sikh Panth to not practice these Manmat habits ourselves. An Amritdhari is supposed to be above caste. Identifying with one's caste means you are identifying with your impermanent body which will stop functioning sooner or later. One's soul is free from caste or race, and this temporary body is only a means of carrying our souls. As Sikhs we should know that and we should be the last ones on earth to practice any sort of caste based discrimination. Before we identify with anything wordly, we need to know for a fact that we are first Sikhs of Dasam Patshah. We are all brothers. Amongst brothers no one is higher or lower.

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Yes i agree with mithar. This incident does not seem like hostility between jatts vs dalits/chamars. Lets not go off topic here, if you guys want i can split all off-topic post on caste discrimination into new thread? Please suggest the proper tittle and i ll split the thread.

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Mithar Ji, I agree with you, but nothing can change unless we identify and admit the reality - the first to step to addiction, is admittance. And a very large part of the Amritdhari world still harbour and practice caste discrimination (in my experience - and that seen in obvious trends in Gurdwarai and parchaar I have seen). Ramgharia are just as guilty, and Chamaars as has been pointed out, are now also playing the caste game due to their social improvement and new identity, it just so happens we are talking about the largest, and therefore most influential group in Punjab. If change happens here, it will happen everywhere.

N30 Ji, the root cause and the end solution lie in exactly this topic, caste. There is no way out of it.

As Mithar says, the only innocent party in all this are the Churai (& Bhayai) - who get treated like *&^% by everyone.

Its not about a particular group, tribe, jaath, race etc, its about mans inherant nature - if you put any man in good circumstance - (be it a glorious history, social success, economic success, intellectual success etc) unless that success is tamed by bhagti - he will become a monster. That is why we see the same trend .e. Jatts used to be considered Shudrai, bow they are the new Brahmins, same happened with Ramgharia (for want of a better word), particulalry the educated elite which stemmed from East Africa and now same is happening with Chumaars. Eventually it becomes a battle for the Brahmin crown - with all ex-shudrai castes thinking they are better than their brothers of differing professions. Its laughable, sad, but true.

The only secular soution is to ensure that everyone is given the same opportunities i.e. free education for those that can't afford it etc, so that an equal platform is provided for those that want to pull themselves out of poverty (which has sort of started to happen).

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Maybe some good will come out of this. Maybe more people will reflect on and reject caste.

I hope so.

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i just read this:

http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/16897/38/

Khalistan Zindabad Force Disowns Vienna Incident

CHANDIGARH: The Khalistan Zindabad Force(kzf), which purported to ahad on Wednesday claimed responsibility for attack on two religious leaders in Vienna in Austria on Thursday denied its role in the incident and condemned the act as against the teachings of Sikh gurus.

In a signed statement issued by Ranjit Singh Jammu, the KZF Chief said that they respect Guru Ravidass who is an integral part of Sikh religion. He said that 'bani' of all Bhagats including Bhagat Ravidass was included in Guru Granth Sahib and all Bhagats are respectable as their Guru.

He said that Sikhs had no grudge against the head of dera Sach Khand Sant Niranjan Dass and Sant Rama Nand who was killed in Vienna. Jammu described it an action of intelligence agencies of India who are trying to defame the Sikh community and people invoilved in Khalistan movement. He alleged that ruling party in Punjab was responsible for the ghasty act. He named Parkash Singh Badal responsible for the attack and alleged that blame has been shifted on Khalistan Zindabad Force.

He said that dalits are their brotherns and part of struggle of Sikh community. He appealed for peace in the state. KZF cheif said that their fight is against anti-Panthic forces and not against their own brothers. He said that if the sentiments of Ravidass community were hurt due to misuse of KZF name, they seek an apology for it.

It is recalled that certain newspapers had carried reports about KZF taking responsibility for Vienna attack. The dalits associated with dera Sach Khand had on Wednesday burnt the effigy of KZF to register their anger. The KZF however denies the allegations.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090529/punjab.htm#1

http://www.rozanaspokesman.com/fullpage.as...=29&pview=1

clearly what actually took place will only be uncovered after investigation. what we have now is a political blame game between those in power in india and punjab, those who have influence in media circles and a small minority of sikhs who have little power and are divided.

with 25th anniversary of operation bluestar coming up this must be parkash badal's best week of the year as he has gone from biggest traitor who gave green light for the attack and walked out of harimandir sahib to sympathetic sikh leader who does akhand paaths.

all i can say is we are all one community squabbling over lands or manmade boundaries - only Guru Granth Sahib Ji is perfect the rest of us are lost.

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So the truth finally comes out, GOI might be involved in this. But what amazes me how youths these days are soo gullible, can be easily exploited with hatred/violence end up getting trapped in web of hatred/violence on events like this and get blacklisted/monitored by raw agents and other intelligence agencies who monitor all the fanaticism/fascism/radical views online.

Wake up guys, a person who claims to hardcore khalistani, self styled panthic police body posting all kinds of hatred post towards other dharams, groups, personalities just to invoke a reaction from youths might be very well be agent of GOI.

I seriously believe if someone claims to be hardcore khalistani leader, self styled panthic police body and seeking followers for the peaceful- republic of khalistan or seek for wider sikh sangat support on issues of beadhi, should prove himself/herself by cutting one of their ang- thumb, toe, fingers, full nails outer and inner skins etc should go through vigorous testing by independent Sikh organizations to prove he is not a informant/agent before even being allowed on the stage at the Gurdwaras to give high morality speeches, human rights abuses which is used these days to exploit youths or invoke emotional/ sometimes violent reactions from youths.

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Mithar even if they are not, self styled panthic police organization might be behind this who may be very well infiltrated by GOI.

So far this attack against this baba was condemned on all levels by everyone khalistani /non khalistani sikh bodies alike including vatican of sikhs- 1. Sri Akaal Takth Sahib. 2. Babar Khalsa 3. KZF. 4. United Sikh Organization.

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So the truth finally comes out, GOI might be involved in this.

There is no reason to suspect this, at this time. The authorities in Austria will investigate the crime and will have no vested interest in hiding any facts they uncover. I suggest we reserve judgment until there have been some criminal convictions of the individuals directly responsible.

It's possible the KZF has decided it made a bad move in the aftermath of the violence in Punjab and has now decided to backtrack to disown responsibility, or that the parties responsible for sending the email with KZF header claiming responsibility were some kids playing a hoax.

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I been reading about the Vienna attacks and to be honest it’s been disheartening to hear about the riots and the issues on the caste struggle, but what’s more worrying is that some people are celebrating the killing of the man. The idea that he was brought to ‘justice’ for the beadbi that he committed is what some members of the Sikh community seem to portray.

Now what I was wondering what is justice in Sikhi?

Now it is rumoured that he talked ill of the Gurus and ‘disrespected’ Guru Granth Sahib. Now if this is the case does Sikhi teach someone should be murdered in cases of disrespect is this justice?

Have we gone abit over the top, maybe ritualistic even with the beadbi issue so much so that we are wanting to kill people over something where simple explanation or getting the required authorities involved to deal with the issue e.g Akal Takht ?

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Some people might be frustrated that they cannot get at people like Brar, KPS Gill, Tytler and so take their anger out on an easier target....being the soormey they are....

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Before all the facts are fully known, we should not jump to conclusions. We already know that a letter claiming to be from KZF has been proven fake. So far all Sikh Jathabandis have denounced the attacks as against Sikhi. We still don't know who is behind these attacks and for what reason. For now all we can do is just come to our own conclusions based on very limited info.

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I've read that the ''sadh'' touched a rumulla sahib with his feet before it was placed over Guru ji. Also, that he sat at the same level as guru ji. And that followers would metha tekh to him first, then to Guru ji.

I do find the timing of the shooting suspect though.

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Victims of post-Vienna violence threaten stir

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090601/punjab.htm#1

One thing I must say, the Indian media covered this whole story with much bias against the Sikhs. This is especially true for the English media of India. The killing of the Dera chief had nothing to do with caste. Yet Ravidasi Chamars rioted all over Punjab causing 7000 crore of damage in Punjab. They especially targeted private property owned by Jats in the cities who had absolutely nothing to do with the killing of their Saadh. Yet still the media made the Jats seems like the villains and aggressors and the rioting Ravidasi Chamars as the poor victims. This despite the fact that the killing of the dera chief in Vienna had nothing to do with caste. In this case, the Chamars were the aggressors, the Jats were the victims(very politically incorrect statement, I know). My father's friends who own houses in Jalandhar also had their property damaged by the rioting Ravidasi Chamars, what was their fault??

The Ravidasi followers of Dera Ballan are not Sikh. They do not consider themselves Sikh. Yet the media portrayed this as an inter-caste war between the Sikh Jats against the Sikh Chamars. What I’m really surprised about is how all Sikh organisations from the moderates to the hardcore Khalistanis all lined up kissing the butts of these rioters.

The saddest part is, the Punjab government has agreed to drop all charges against the rioters who caused 7000 crore of damage in Punjab, while the people who fought in defence for the safety of their family and property have been charged!! More over, the Punjab government has also decided to financially compensate all the rioters hurt while RIOTING!! while giving no such financial compensation to the city folks whose property has been burnt and damaged!! So much bias(and BS), I can’t believe it!!!

Vaheguru! This is too much political correctness for me to take in single lifetime!

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