Guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 You are implying, like various Pro Dasam Granth members, that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is incomplete because it does NOT address the Panj Vikar issue and is supposedly addressed only in Dasam Granth. I have listed just a few examples from Gurbani alone that have all of these Panj Vikars listed clearly. SO, again explain to sangat what is the need for another Granth? Regarding Religious issues, look at the shabad below where Guru ji himself is saying that he has established Dharamsal, and what do you think is taught in that Dharamsal: DHARAM. By the way if you read this shabad analysis in detail you will see it also addresses the Panj Vikar issue in its first part No see this is problem you have preconceived notions that i m implying sri guru granth sahib ji is incomplete because it does not address the panj vikar issue. In fact it does as you rightfully pointed out, I have no problem with that. The problem is with your mindset that everything in sikhi is black and white. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, it does address the panj vikar issue but it does touches surface only because sri dasam granth sahib was supposed to be compiled and meant for touching these vikar issues deeply with examples (charitars). Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji purposely didn't include contents of sri dasam granth sahib in damdama sahib bir of sri guru granth sahib ji as i have given you classic example of how certain subjects are categorized as "Sceince" and how certain subjects are categorized as "Arts" have specific text for each subjects. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 No see this is problem you have preconceived notions that i m implying sri guru granth sahib ji is incomplete because it does not address the panj vikar issue. In fact it does as you rightfully pointed out, I have no problem with that. The problem is with your mindset that everything in sikhi is black and white. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, it does address the panj vikar issue but it does touches surface only because sri dasam granth sahib was supposed to be compiled and meant for touching these vikar issues deeply with examples (charitars). Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji purposely didn't include contents of sri dasam granth sahib in damdama sahib bir of sri guru granth sahib ji as i have given you classic example of how certain subjects are categorized as "Sceince" and how certain subjects are categorized as "Arts" have specific text for each subjects. This is not the only place where Guru Granth Sahib ji does not go into explicit detail on an important facet of Sikh life. The rahit maryada is incorporated into Gurbani by a shabad. Aspects of rahit are discussed in various places in SGGS. However, all rahit maryada, in its entirety, is not explained in SGGS. Examples include the punj kakkar and the Amrit Sanchaar maryaada. So, SGGS is spiritually complete, but doesn't tell us everything about Sikh life. This is why we have Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars, which the Guru himself designated as the keys to understanding SGGS ji, this is why we have Dasam Bani. ang 1230 ਸਾਰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Saarang, Fifth Mehl: ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਮਨਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har; enshrine the Lord, Har, Har, within your mind. ||1||Pause|| ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਸੁਨਨ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਪਾਤਿਕ ਪੁਨਹਚਰਨ ॥ Hear Him with your ears, and practice devotional worship - these are good deeds, which make up for past evils. ਸਰਨ ਪਰਨ ਸਾਧੂ ਆਨ ਬਾਨਿ ਬਿਸਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ So seek the Sanctuary of the Holy, and forget all your other habits. ||1||. ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨੀਤ ਨੀਤਿ ਪਾਵਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਨੀਤ ॥ Love the Lord's Feet, continually and continuously - the most sacred and sanctified. ਸੇਵਕ ਭੈ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਨ ਕਲਿਮਲ ਦੋਖ ਜਾਰੇ ॥ Fear is taken away from the servant of the Lord, and the dirty sins and mistakes of the past are burnt away. ਕਹਤ ਮੁਕਤ ਸੁਨਤ ਮੁਕਤ ਰਹਤ ਜਨਮ ਰਹਤੇ ॥ Those who speak are liberated, and those who listen are liberated; those who keep the Rehit, the Code of Conduct, are not reincarnated again. ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਸਾਰ ਭੂਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥੨॥੪॥੧੩੩॥ The Lord's Name is the most sublime essence; Nanak contemplates the nature of reality. ||2||4||133|| 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 However, all rahit maryada, in its entirety, is not explained in SGGS. Examples include the punj kakkar and the Amrit Sanchaar maryaada. So, SGGS is spiritually complete, but doesn't tell us everything about Sikh life. This is why we have Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars, which the Guru himself designated as the keys to understanding SGGS ji, this is why we have Dasam Bani. Very good point there. This without any doubt seals the discussion/debate on what is need for another granth- Sri Dasam Granth 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru da Sikh Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 This is not the only place where Guru Granth Sahib ji does not go into explicit detail on an important facet of Sikh life. The rahit maryada is incorporated into Gurbani by a shabad. Aspects of rahit are discussed in various places in SGGS. However, all rahit maryada, in its entirety, is not explained in SGGS. (Would you please list the Sikh Code of Conduct (outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) that prevents a man from committing adultery and its author‘s name) Examples include the punj kakkar and the Amrit Sanchaar maryaada. So, SGGS is spiritually complete, but doesn't tell us everything about Sikh life. This is why we have Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars, which the Guru himself designated as the keys to understanding SGGS ji, this is why we have Dasam Bani. (Please provide any documented proof from Gurbani or from Dasam Granth to back up your one line bold statement claim that Guru ji HIMSELF designated Bhai Gurdaas ji vaars as the KEY to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.) ang 1230 ਸਾਰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Saarang, Fifth Mehl: ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਮਨਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har; enshrine the Lord, Har, Har, within your mind. ||1||Pause|| ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਸੁਨਨ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਪਾਤਿਕ ਪੁਨਹਚਰਨ ॥ Hear Him with your ears, and practice devotional worship - these are good deeds, which make up for past evils. ਸਰਨ ਪਰਨ ਸਾਧੂ ਆਨ ਬਾਨਿ ਬਿਸਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ So seek the Sanctuary of the Holy, and forget all your other habits. ||1||. ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨੀਤ ਨੀਤਿ ਪਾਵਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਨੀਤ ॥ Love the Lord's Feet, continually and continuously - the most sacred and sanctified. ਸੇਵਕ ਭੈ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਨ ਕਲਿਮਲ ਦੋਖ ਜਾਰੇ ॥ Fear is taken away from the servant of the Lord, and the dirty sins and mistakes of the past are burnt away. ਕਹਤ ਮੁਕਤ ਸੁਨਤ ਮੁਕਤ ਰਹਤ ਜਨਮ ਰਹਤੇ ॥ Those who speak are liberated, and those who listen are liberated; those who keep the Rehit, the Code of Conduct, are not reincarnated again. ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਸਾਰ ਭੂਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥੨॥੪॥੧੩੩॥ The Lord's Name is the most sublime essence; Nanak contemplates the nature of reality. ||2||4||133|| By the way, if you have read the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji with even some basic (not very deep) understanding, you would have realized that the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches us meek humans how to be good citizens and perfect humans. Is that NOT the code of conduct for a Sikh. Besides it is Dasam Granth supporters, who admitted on other postings that all Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches is morals and qualities. (read Mithar‘s Posting June 4, 2009 at 07:15 AM) You people make lot of claims but nothing to back it up with any proofs from Gurbani. I am still waiting for answers to my last only six questions. So many of you against one, yet you feel unable and incapable to answer my questions in details like I do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Guru da Sikh, Kindly explain why Guru Ji employed 52 poets in his darbaar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Q14 Nirmala order is rooted in the 5 Singhs that Guru Gobind Singh ji sent Varanasi in order to retrieve the monopolised knowledge of Indian Philosophies, which was coded in Sanskrit and inaccesible to the common man. Guru Ji gave back the Indians their heritage - but in a purified form - Gurmat. The parchaar that both the Nirmalai and Udasis did is what replenished the Panth during the terrible 18th C. There non-Singh saroop and interaction with other faiths allowed them free access to do Gurmat parchaar and find new recruits, we owe our very survival to them. Nirmalai from my experience do not have much interaction with Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, could you please provide evidence re your theory that they created Sri Dasam Granth Sahib? Ithihaas tells us that Bhai Manni Singh Ji compiled Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, as does his communication with Mata Sundri Ji and the Massa Rangar seva episode, not to mention dates found in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib itself. One more question: 1 - "Clarification: It is from Amrit Kirtan attributed to Dasam Patshah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji." 2 - In Q6 you mention the Dasam Bani testing seva you are so kindly doing for the Panth. 3 - You also say why did Dasmesh Pita not include his writings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Why do you quote from non Sri Guru Granth Sahib sources? Why are you carrying out 'Gurmat' tests on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib when you believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib is pooran (which it is for Atmak Marg) and when you clearly believe if Guru Gobind Singh had written anything, he would have included it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Seems like you are a little confused about where you stand on all this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Q11 >Gurprasad is the complete Gurbani Manglacharan, not Mul Mantar (with smaller variations found at raag intros and specific important shabds). As per all old Sikh orders >Hosi Bhi Sach is Mul Mantar. Q12 - Do you accept the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji as cannonical? Of course Guru holds the keys to 'unlocking' the mind. Bhai Gurdas simply gives us exegesis over Gurbani, talks about Sikh life, events and other Mats. All is in line with Gurbani. Q13 - Great answer! A*! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru da Sikh Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Q14 Nirmala order is rooted in the 5 Singhs that Guru Gobind Singh ji sent Varanasi in order to retrieve the monopolised knowledge of Indian Philosophies, which was coded in Sanskrit and inaccesible to the common man. Guru Ji gave back the Indians their heritage - but in a purified form - Gurmat. (First of all it is abundantly clear from Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS) and the Banis attributed to Guru Gobind Singh that Gurus Nanak Dev, Arjan Dev and Gobind Singh had sound knowledge of Sanskrit and Hindu mythology. It is also known that they did not go to Varanasi or any other Hindu center to learn Sanskrit and mythology and they learnt it where they grew up in Punjab. This means that Sanskrit teachers were available in Punjab. So what was the particular need for Guru Gobind Singh to send five Sikhs to Varanasi? Second, there were scholars in Guru Gobind Singh’s court, who translated Sanskrit texts into Braj Bhasa. Were they not competent enough to teach Sanskrit to Sikhs? If Guru had 52 scholars and poets in his court, couldn’t he hire few Sanskrit teachers for the Sikhs? Third, if the Guru did send the Sikhs to Varanasi then what were their names and where did they come from? Wouldn‘t history record such information (not make up now) that Guru Gobind Singh ji considered so important? Is there any biographical information available about them? What did those Sikhs do with their knowledge of Sanskrit? Did they teach Sanskrit to Sikhs or translated Gurbani into Sanskrit? Did they translate Sanskrit texts into Braj Bhasa or Punjabi?) The parchaar that both the Nirmalai and Udasis did is what replenished the Panth during the terrible 18th C. There non-Singh saroop and interaction with other faiths allowed them free access to do Gurmat parchaar and find new recruits, we owe our very survival to them. (I do AGREE with you whole heartedly, the we do owe the SURVIVAL to these Nirmalays – NOT the survival of the GurSikhs BUT THE SURVIVAL OF THE BRAHMIN MENTALITY THAT LIVES ON IN PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF !) Nirmalai from my experience do not have much interaction with Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, could you please provide evidence re your theory that they created Sri Dasam Granth Sahib? (As far Nirmalay & Udasea goes, they are not only supporters of Dasam Granth but the actual contributor and initiators of this Granth. Your claim that they do not much about turns out to be a LIE when you click on the link below and see for yourself SWAMI Brahm Dev being presented as a ‘scholar‘. ) Ithihaas tells us that Bhai Manni Singh Ji compiled Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, as does his communication with Mata Sundri Ji and the Massa Rangar seva episode, not to mention dates found in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib itself. One more question: 1 - "Clarification: It is from Amrit Kirtan attributed to Dasam Patshah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji." 2 - In Q6 you mention the Dasam Bani testing seva you are so kindly doing for the Panth. 3 - You also say why did Dasmesh Pita not include his writings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Why do you quote from non Sri Guru Granth Sahib sources? ( I have quoted from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the only time I have quoted something other than that is a Sakhi about Udasea because the individual that I was replying to COULD NOT understand the logic of Gurbani and WAS hung up on Sakhis alone.) Why are you carrying out 'Gurmat' tests on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib when you believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib is pooran (which it is for Atmak Marg) and when you clearly believe if Guru Gobind Singh had written anything, he would have included it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? (I am Amritdhari Sikh, and have every right to protect the sanctity of the ONLY COMPLETE GURU of the Sikhs, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. When attempts are made by anti-Sikh coalition to destroy this connection between the Sikh & his Guru by creating the dasam Granth out of nowhere and attribute to Guru Gobind Singh ji, I have every right to TEST Dasam Granth against Gurmat Gyan so that CONFUSED INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOURSELF can be guided back to the Khalsa Panth. I believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji COMPLETE. ) Seems like you are a little confused about where you stand on all this? (I look at your user name shaheediyan, and wonder if you intend to cause shaheedi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji !) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru da Sikh Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Q11 >Gurprasad is the complete Gurbani Manglacharan, not Mul Mantar (with smaller variations found at raag intros and specific important shabds). As per all old Sikh orders >Hosi Bhi Sach is Mul Mantar. (You people refer to Sikh Code of Conduct from Akal Takhat, so please remind sangat again as to what is the approved MoolMantar. (upto Gurparsad) Q12 - Do you accept the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji as cannonical? Of course Guru holds the keys to 'unlocking' the mind. Bhai Gurdas simply gives us exegesis over Gurbani, talks about Sikh life, events and other Mats. All is in line with Gurbani. (KEYS: WOW ! There is only one mind, one Dasam Dwar, One access, One lock and yet many KEYS ! Read Gurbani carefully. Everywhere Guru ji uses the SINGULAR form of the word KUNJI and NOT KUNJIAN !) Q13 - Great answer! A*! Thank You ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru da Sikh Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 ALL Dasam Granth Supporters and followers, please answer these questions OUTSTANDING FOR the last few days; A. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani. B. Post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from so called Dasam Granth. While you are at it, can somebody answer the following questions; 1. REHATNAMA, outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, preventing a MAN from committing adultery 2. Please clearly NAME the author of that Rehatnama 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 My point here, which you have completely ignored, is that there is vital knowledge on how to be a Sikh that is contained outside of Guru Granth Sahib ji. Do you believe in Amrit Sanchaar? Since the maryada for this is not written in SGGS, Do you think the method by which the Amrit Sanchaar is conducted is important or not? Do you think what the punj kakaars are is important or not? Since it is not written in SGGS, maybe that is something you deem unimportant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 CA Singh Sahba Singh Sahib, "(First of all it is abundantly clear from Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS) and the Banis attributed to Guru Gobind Singh that Gurus Nanak Dev, Arjan Dev and Gobind Singh had sound knowledge of Sanskrit and Hindu mythology. It is also known that they did not go to Varanasi or any other Hindu center to learn Sanskrit and mythology and they learnt it where they grew up in Punjab." Ever heard of Guru Nanak Dev Jis Udasis? What did Guru Amardas Ji do/believe/visit before they became a Gursikh and later SatGuru? Where was Guru Gobind Singh Ji born and where did they spend their childhood? You have not answered any of the other questions i.e. where are Kes, Kachera, Kara, Kanga and Kirpan mentioned in Aad Guru, where is Dastaar mentioned in Aad Guru, where are Khande de 'Pahul' mentionedin Aad Guru, where are Bipran ki reet mentioned in Aad Guru. Please answer other questions also. This thread is about questions to you, you chose to partake! Re the names of the 5 Singhs and what the Nirmalai have produced in terms of literature, it is clear you have no idea about Nirmalai, so there is no point discussing this aspect further, do some homework. Thanks for your comments regarding my Brahman mentality, for someone who bangs on about how unfriendly people are here (after you insult the core beliefs of everyone here) you certainly know how to epitomise an hypocrite! So your whole Dasam Bani compilation theory is based on the words of one modern day personality! Bravo - thanks for the masterclass on academia!! Rest of your post isn't even worth responding to. Your insults and off topic replies clearly show you are ignorant of your true breadth of understanding. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Because I am a nice man (with a Brahman mentality): "A. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani." You have quoted from the main body of the Panthic ardaas a number times (which isn't Gurbani - is that confusion again), so why are you asking a question which is clearly answered in the ardaas? "B. Post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from so called Dasam Granth." Lets start with one - Where is Yudh Vidya available in Aad Guru? "1. REHATNAMA, outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, preventing a MAN from committing adultery 2. Please clearly NAME the author of that Rehatnama" As an example, read: Rehitnama of Bhai Daya Singh (11), (16), (39), (89). Rehitnama of Bhai Desa Singh (14), (44). Hukumnamas 14 & 15, Baba Ram Singh Koer. Also see Sau Sakhi. Happy reading. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 ibnw AnMd ibvwh qy Bugqy pr kI joie ] sux isKw gur kih Q~ky myrw isK n soie ]25] binaa ana(n)dh bivaah thae bhugathae par kee joe || sun sikhaa gur kehi thhaakae maeraa sikh n soe ||25|| Without having Anand Karaj those who have sexual relationships. Listen O' Sikh the Guru states, he is not my Sikh. Rehatnama Mukhthnama Guru Angad was proclaimed, and the True Creator confirmed it. Nanak merely changed his body; He still sits on the throne, with hundreds of branches reaching out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 EXCUSE THE CAPITALS, BUT YOU HAVE AVOIDED THIS QUESTION: WHERE DOES THE VERSE THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR 'NAASTIK' MURSHID LOVE TO QUOTE COME FROM I.E. 'BIPRAN KE REET'. AMRIT KIRTAN IS NOT A PRIMARY SOURCE CLEVER CLOGGS. FOR SOMEONE WHO LOVES ADVERTISE THAT HE RELIES ONLY ON SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB, ITS LAUGHABLE THAT YOU QUOTE SO STRONGLY FROM SOURCES YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW EXIST. YOU ARE BETTER OFF MOVING ON TO ANOTHER WEBSITE, YOU'VE EMBARRESSED YOURSELF ENOUGH HERE AND WON NO CONVERTS TO YOUR CULT. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 This is a basic description from the book on the Sri Dasam Granth by Gurinder Singh Mann" coming soon of words to that affect. This themes were prevalent and not a misdemeanor. Guru Gobind singh's poets wrote a multitude of poetry in various forms and ras this included sex poetry as well and in this case we are not taking about the Sri Charitropakhyan which is diffferent in many ways to the Hindu ideals of sex but other manuscripts which contained the basic fundamental concept of creating life. On of his poets Kuvresh in his Rati Rahass Kok ( The Secret of Love according to Koka) which is a rendition of the Kamashastra lit known as the Kok Shastra renders the Guru saying the following: " May the poet Kuvresh always remain within the court of Guru Gobind". These various modes of life was a norm of the poets but the Sri Charitropkahyan was a development based on the traditional concepts of Gurmat and the Guru Granth Sahib. Each Charitra was a life experencing concept which the Sikhs had to avoid and master in the world of maya and in the days of Kaljug. If sex was not in the Sri Dasam Granth then the Celestial Granth would be incomplete as it would not answer the basic questions warranted by sikhs and people in general. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Guru Da Sikh: You stated earlier, " the Bipran Ki Reet passage is from Dasam Granth and if you had read one page of it, you would know that...." From this it is clear that YOU have not read Sri Dasam Granth, and hence you are in no position to debate its authenticity. The raja in Charitro Pakhyan is NOT Guru Sahib - this is clear from the grammer used. Any translation that claims otherwise is wrong. It is a fact that women can easily take advantage of men - this is how they were made and is easily proven just by looking around us. Sexuality is used to sell everything from A to Z. The Charitro Pakhyan teaches us how to stay alert and not fall prey to kaam/ temptation/ maya. Sex is also mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but in a different context. It isn't a dirty thing and without it, the human race would die out. From Veer 'Ghorandhar': if we can do arath of shabads from the Guru granth Sahib jee such as api reseeai aap raas api ravan har, then we should have no problem with the dasam granth. The bhav is different but both refer to sexual content. The Shabad in the Guru Granth Sahib refers to Sexual content as a methapoor of piyar between a husband and wife, In essence its talking about the piyar between the human and paramatma. The bani in the dasam granth is talking about lack of control of the mind when referring the sexual content. Sometimes I get worried when people start attacking the Chitopkhyan (mainly because they only know how to copy and paste some lines) because will they turn on the shabads in Raagi Suhi next which uses sexual content as methapor for piyar with parmata? Rather than hiding from issues such as kam krodh, lobh moh hankar, a Sikh should confront it and discuss it rather than acting like it does not exist. This false sense of security has destroyed our familys. We should educate our children on such issues rather than letting them be educated by the western media. I very good chapter in the book Sabh Dusht chak mara has been written on this issue which people like Kala Aghana have failed to respond to. Moving on, The worship of devi/devte/avtaars is totally rejected by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Sri Dasam Bani. However, we can learn from their stories and the battles they fought, which is why Guru Sahib translated the works he did. NOte that ALL the banis in Sri Dasam Granth begin with "IK OANKAAR....." and end with Guru Sahib saying that only Akaal Purkh is worshipped, all else rejected. This clearly shows that most of Sri Dasam Granth is there for us to do vichaar and learn from the stories contained. Most of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, on the other hand, is giving Updesh. With Dasam Granth, you should NEVER just pick one line - always take the whole bani into consideration, especially the start and end, or you will get the meaning wrong. From Guru Gobind Singh Ji's writings, we learn about how right always defeats wrong eventually, bir rass, war strategy, the different ways maya can destroy a man, shastar vidya, politics, Waheguru's greatness, the love Guru Ji has for his Sikhs/ Khalsa, the hukam to keep Kesh, Kara and shastar, importance of maryada and much, much more. As Sant Jarnail Singh Ji said, this is not a Granth for cowards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Guru Da Sikh: You stated earlier, " the Bipran Ki Reet passage is from Dasam Granth and if you had read one page of it, you would know that...." From this it is clear that YOU have not read Sri Dasam Granth, and hence you are in no position to debate its authenticity. The raja in Charitro Pakhyan is NOT Guru Sahib - this is clear from the grammer used. Any translation that claims otherwise is wrong. It is a fact that women can easily take advantage of men - this is how they were made and is easily proven just by looking around us. Sexuality is used to sell everything from A to Z. The Charitro Pakhyan teaches us how to stay alert and not fall prey to kaam/ temptation/ maya. Sex is also mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but in a different context. It isn't a dirty thing and without it, the human race would die out. From Veer 'Ghorandhar': I am not sure how Guru Da Sikh person got the info that Bipran Ke Reet is mentioned in Dasam Granth because it isn't. It isn't even in Sarabloh Granth. It is in the edited version of poetry titled 'Khalsa Mero Roop Hai Khaas'. Sarabloh Granth says: Khalsa Kaal Purakh Kee Fauj Edited version says: Khalsa Akaal Purakh Kee Fauj Are you sure about your statements on Charitropakhyan? If yes, please inform Lamba because he is in New York and might get into a Dasam Granth debate. Lamba sure didn't fair well in his first three-four debates. I will post some links to talk on Dasam Granth held on radio. http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Audio/55 Dr. Jodh Singh in audio below http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Audio/37 http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Audio/35 http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Audio/13 http://www.wakeupkhalsa.com/talk-shows.php More links will be posted later. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 There is special thread on charitopakhyan of Sri Dasam Granth. Please discuss it there: http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=11440 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 There is special thread on charitopakhyan of Sri Dasam Granth. Please discuss it there: http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=11440 I would like to participate there but it would take too long and it wouldn't be very beneficial. It would be best to arrange debate in the Toronto area to have a proper one. Forum debates don't provide much benefit because not many get access. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 All the singhsabhacanada lies have been answered in detail - search this forum for links to videos and websites. Their arguments are weak! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I would like to participate there but it would take too long and it wouldn't be very beneficial. It would be best to arrange debate in the Toronto area to have a proper one. Forum debates don't provide much benefit because not many get access. I have a katha vaichak who is more than happy to discuss sri dasam granth sahib with you guys, he has refuted claims by missionaries/bhausaria against dasam granth sahib before in montreal and calgary. Right now he drives a truck which is bit unfortunate as he does not wish to pursue katha vaichak career anymore in the Gurdwara. Once we get sufficient funding for him here which is close to $3500 for 2 months temporary to support him, he will able to ready for full fledged debate on sri dasam granth sahib. Until then be patient unless off course your side can provide him half funding in "act of desperation for debate" do let us know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Khalsa Fauj Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 All the singhsabhacanada lies have been answered in detail - search this forum for links to videos and websites. Their arguments are weak! Those audios have nothing to do with singhsabha. Those are actual live debates between scholars. E.g. The Dr. Jodh Singh one is the one he had on radio where he was asked questions. Please open the links and listen before just saying their points have been answered. I don't have time to go through forums. Maybe you can post which points have been answered so that no one brings them up here. By the way, I am not in the mood of debate here because I am a bit busy these days. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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