? To Guru Da Sikh

[Guest]

//Does that imply you believe - jaap sahib, tav parsad swaie, chaupie sahib were kachi bani (god forbid) since they were outside of sri guru granth sahib maharaj ? //

//Guru da Sikh you wrote:

I stated my position in an earlier post, that out of respect, I do NOT oppose the Rehat Meryada. And these three are included in that.

If you consider yourself a Sikh and claim that you get the Atmik Gyan from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, has the Guru NOT answered your question in the same lines! //

I couldn't find your previous post, its a simple question as per your belief not because out of respect but as your core belief - do you believe- jaap sahib, tav parsad swaie and chaupia sahib to be kache bani?? as you believe that anything outside sri guru granth sahib is kachi bani by quoting stanza from anand sahib ??

[shaheediyan]

"Communication: You claim to have posted the answers and yet those are nowhere to be found, and I am the one who has gotten the communication problem!"

Enter big spoon, open wide.... This thread, 2nd page, 2nd post from the bottom.

[valli singh]

.

[shaheediyan]

"A. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurban"

Your use of the semetic term soul is incorrect in defining Jyot. Soul is semetic term inferring a state of permanent existence seperate from the creator. Sikhi marg believes a Gurmukh becomes one with his creator.

Jyot refers to light - this light which was passed from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Angad Dev Ji was that of perfect knowldge i.e. truth. It was the light which made Guru Angad Dev Jis face reflect the whole glory of Parmatma (as perceivable by us).

This perfect state or light was blessed on the proceeding 8 Guru Sahiban.

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਚੰਦੁ ਜਗਤ ਭਯੋ ਆਨੰਦੁ ਤਾਰਨਿ ਮਨੁਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜਨ ਕੀਅਉ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ॥

ਗੁਰ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੀਅਉ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਭੂਤ ਬਸਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਜਮਤ ਨ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ॥

[Guru da Sikh]

"sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee || Without the True Guru, other songs are false. Does that still leave you room for other literature to seek knowledge? You said Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is COMPLETE then what is it that you are looking for in literature outside of a COMPLETE SATGURU?"

Does that mean that you will not be sending your children to school then i.e. they may have to read Romeo and Juliette as part of their English Literature module, I suppose that would be AN-TIE Gurmat....

Yes, I would stop them from going to school, IF THE SCHOOL WAS GOING TO ASK MY KIDS TO READ ROMEO & JULIET WRITTEN IN A PORNOGRAPHIC LANGUAGE!

May be you haven’t noticed, next door in Alberta, they just passed a legislation to give parents an option to pull their kids from classes where if any religious or sexual education conflicts with the Parents’ belief!

[Guru da Sikh]

"A. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurban"

Your use of the semetic term soul is incorrect in defining Jyot. Soul is semetic term inferring a state of permanent existence seperate from the creator. Sikhi marg believes a Gurmukh becomes one with his creator.

Jyot refers to light - this light which was passed from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Angad Dev Ji was that of perfect knowldge i.e. truth. It was the light which made Guru Angad Dev Jis face reflect the whole glory of Parmatma (as perceivable by us).

This perfect state or light was blessed on the proceeding 8 Guru Sahiban.

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਚੰਦੁ ਜਗਤ ਭਯੋ ਆਨੰਦੁ ਤਾਰਨਿ ਮਨੁਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜਨ ਕੀਅਉ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ॥

ਗੁਰ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੀਅਉ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਭੂਤ ਬਸਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਜਮਤ ਨ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ॥

Did the light disappear for the 9th time, why only for 8 times? Wasn’t the same jot in Dasam Patshah?

If you mean 8 times starting from Guru Angand Dev ji, did Guru Gobind Singh ji NOT get the same Perfect Knowledge?

If he did, then why need an additional Granth? Wouldn’t his teachings be in line with and using the same Nanak ‘stamp‘ as by the remaining Patshahian?

[Guru da Sikh]

//Does that imply you believe - jaap sahib, tav parsad swaie, chaupie sahib were kachi bani (god forbid) since they were outside of sri guru granth sahib maharaj ? //

//Guru da Sikh you wrote:

I stated my position in an earlier post, that out of respect, I do NOT oppose the Rehat Meryada. And these three are included in that.

If you consider yourself a Sikh and claim that you get the Atmik Gyan from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, has the Guru NOT answered your question in the same lines! //

I couldn't find your previous post, its a simple question as per your belief not because out of respect but as your core belief - do you believe- jaap sahib, tav parsad swaie and chaupia sahib to be kache bani?? as you believe that anything outside sri guru granth sahib is kachi bani by quoting stanza from anand sahib ??

A GurSikh’s CORE beliefs are based on Gurmat because he / she has RESPECT for Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I still stand by my statement that I do not OPPOSE these writings out of my respect for the approved Sikh Code of Conduct from Akal Takhat.

[shaheediyan]

Stop choosing specific questions to answer.

Where does Yudh Vidya appear within Sri Guru Granth Sahib - how does Sri Guru Granth Sahib prepare a man for the horrors of the battefiled, how does Aad Guru acclimatise one with blood, guts, tactics needed on the battlefield...

Answer the question.

[shaheediyan]

"A GurSikh’s CORE beliefs are based on Gurmat because he / she has RESPECT for Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I still stand by my statement that I do not OPPOSE these writings out of my respect for the approved Sikh Code of Conduct from Akal Takhat."

What does Panthic Maryada say about Gurmantar Jeeo, again you pick and choose what suits you.

So if you have so much respect for Panthic Maryada, I take you don't speak out against Benti Chaupai either, which is from your favorite part of Sri Dasam Guru Darbar...?

You are like a deranged Aborigine, who keep chucking his boomerang at what he considers to be his enemies, but just keeps getting hit in the head with his own boomerang because 1) his aim is crap and 2) he can't catch.

To top it off you can't count either, counting must be An-tie Gurmat also:

1 - Mahalla 2 (M) to M3

2 - M3 to M4

3 - M4 to M5

4 - M5 to M6

5 - M6 to M7

6 - M7 to M8

7 - M8 to M9

8 - M9 to M10

[Mithar]

Guru Da Sikh wrote:

A GurSikh’s CORE beliefs are based on Gurmat because he / she has RESPECT for Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I still stand by my statement that I do not OPPOSE these writings out of my respect for the approved Sikh Code of Conduct from Akal Takhat.

As Shaheediyan pointed out, you pick and choose what suits you. You say one thing but do another. While claiming you respect the approved Sikh Code of Conduct from Akal Takht, but at the same time you deny Dasam Banis within the Panthic rehet Maryadha Nitnem. You furthur also deny the importance of doing simran of the Gurmantra while the Panthic Rehet Maryadha says a Sikh must wake up every morning(Amritvela) and do Jaap of Vaheguru Gurmantra. You hide behind the name of Prof Sahib Singh, but failed to read Prof Sahib Singh’s book "Simran Dhiyaan Barkataan" in which he writes the importance of doing Simran on the Vaheguru Gurmantra.

[Maha Singh]

Doesnt Panthic Rehit Maryada state that no one should discuss whether the Bani of Sri Dasam Granth is penned by Guru Gobind Singh? If Akaal Takht declares that Sri Dasam Granth is Gurbani, will Guru Da Sikh start believing in it? I very much doubt it.

[Guru da Sikh]

Doesnt Panthic Rehit Maryada state that no one should discuss whether the Bani of Sri Dasam Granth is penned by Guru Gobind Singh?

It is in panthic Rehat Meryada?

If Akaal Takht declares that Sri Dasam Granth is Gurbani, will Guru Da Sikh start believing in it? I very much doubt it.

I would start believing in it ONLY if a Jathedar with the same character as Sri Guru Hargobind Singh ji dictated it to be so.

Some Badal chela may be your Jathedar NOT mine!

[Guru da Sikh]

Stop choosing specific questions to answer.

Where does Yudh Vidya appear within Sri Guru Granth Sahib - how does Sri Guru Granth Sahib prepare a man for the horrors of the battefiled, how does Aad Guru acclimatise one with blood, guts, tactics needed on the battlefield...

Answer the question.

Talk about Bir Ras or Yudh Vidya:

Was it the military victory or spiritual victory that Guru Gobind Singh ji had against Aurangzeb?

Based on your logic, with all the war strategies being taught according to Dasam Granth, Sikhs at that time were not supposed to have any problems taking care of the Aurangzeb.

it was the wound inflicted by Zafarnama, the Gurmat Gyan Sword, that finally finished Aurangzeb! He came to the realization, only after reading Zafarnama, what horrific actions he had performed in the name of Islam.

If you read Zafarnama, Guru ji is using Gurmat Principles

If you Pro Dasam Granth boys do get the Bir Ras, where were you when Nihang Ajit ‘Singh’ Poola was abducting and raping the 14 year old daughter of the Hazoori Ragi from Darbar Sahib? Don’t tell me that you hadn’t read Dasam Granth by then!

[singh2]

Clarification: It is from Amrit Kirtan attributed to Dasam Patshah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji. And you consider every literature attributed to Dasam Patshah as Dasam Granth.

No it is not. This question was asked from kala afghana when he stayed at a sikh's house in california. Singh asked him this question. Kala afghana replied the word is from Sarb loh granth. Singh had copy of sarb loh granth with him. He told kala afghana to show him where it is.

Kala afghna was confused. he had never seen Sarbloh granth in his life. He got angry. He has not seen even Dasam granth.

[shaheediyan]

"Was it the military victory or spiritual victory that Guru Gobind Singh ji had against Aurangzeb?"

Both. You conviently forget to mention the Yudhs against the Pahari Rajah and Mughal forces combined...

"Based on your logic, with all the war strategies being taught according to Dasam Granth, Sikhs at that time were not supposed to have any problems taking care of the Aurangzeb."

Guru Ji tried to use diplomatic means, the destruction of Banda Bahadur and Khalsa Panth was released after these means had failed.

"it was the wound inflicted by Zafarnama, the Gurmat Gyan Sword, that finally finished Aurangzeb! He came to the realization, only after reading Zafarnama, what horrific actions he had performed in the name of Islam."

Zafarnama, hmmm, where is that from, oh, from Sri Dasam Guru Darbar - where it appears together with the Hikayats - also written in Farsi and thought to be an addition to the Zafarnama by some scholars - in terms of being lessons for Auranga, specifically see Hakayat 2.

"If you read Zafarnama, Guru ji is using Gurmat Principles"

Guru Ji doesn't need to 'use' Gurmat principles, he is the Guru, therefore whatever Guru says, is Gurmat.

On another note, you are again showing your true Ignoramus self because it seems you have not even read the Zafarnama. If you had, you would know that a fair portion of it dedicated to the battle of Chamkaur - which invokes pure Bir Ras in the manner of Chandi di Vaar.

"If you Pro Dasam Granth boys do get the Bir Ras, where were you when Nihang Ajit ‘Singh’ Poola was abducting and raping the 14 year old daughter of the Hazoori Ragi from Darbar Sahib? Don’t tell me that you hadn’t read Dasam Granth by then!"

Let me guess, the Singhs that finally did Ajit Singhs seva must have been brave and Gurmat Principle guided CA Singh Sabiyas who attacked Phoola with their gyaan.

No one saying the state of the Panth is great, but whilst there are some remarkable Singhs out there, learning about, preserving and promoting nearly extinct Puratan Sikh Gyaan/Rvaaj, there are others like you that are trying to finish off any remnant of real Sikhi with your modernist, Victorian influenced, manmati, self intellect promoting hogwash.

Bunch of hellions.

[Kam1825]

Guru Da Sikh

"I would start believing in it ONLY if a Jathedar with the same character as Sri Guru Hargobind Singh ji dictated it to be so."

Is ther any jathedar who has had the same character as Sri Guru Hargobind Ji? If so who? If not i take it you do not accept any of the Rehit maryadas created by the Khalsa panth following the Jyoti Jyot of Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Ji.

[Guru da Sikh]

Guru Da Sikh

"I would start believing in it ONLY if a Jathedar with the same character as Sri Guru Hargobind Singh ji dictated it to be so."

Is ther any jathedar who has had the same character as Sri Guru Hargobind Ji? If so who?

I wish there was somebody here today (in physical body) with the same high morals and courage as Sri Guru Hargobind Singh ji, then Khalsa Panth wouldn’t be in the predicament of trying decide who its Guru is?

If not i take it you do not accept any of the Rehit maryadas created by the Khalsa panth following the Jyoti Jyot of Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Ji.

I do follow the same Rehat Meryada as was preached and implemented by Guru Hargobind Singh ji at his time which has continued from there on with the addition of Sri Guru Teg Bahadur’s Bani. That Rehat Meryada for ALL Gursikhs is the complete Bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Let me hold you boys by the finger and walk you through Rehat Meryada.

It was NOT done up by a Jathedar overnight, it took whole bunch of Gursikhs scholars nearly 14 years to come up with the Sikh Code of Conduct because it was opposed by some Nirmalay & Udasseye, since Darbar Sahib & majority of the historic Gurudwaras were under the same Mahant Narainu gang’s control . Then it was approved by SGPC at that time and its implementation was sought by the Akal Takhat Jathedar with a Hukamnama, to follow traditional Merayda.

So it was not an individual Jathedar who made this up but some Sikh Scholars and few Pro Dasam Granth boys.

"Was it the military victory or spiritual victory that Guru Gobind Singh ji had against Aurangzeb?"

Both. You conviently forget to mention the Yudhs against the Pahari Rajah and Mughal forces combined...

"Based on your logic, with all the war strategies being taught according to Dasam Granth, Sikhs at that time were not supposed to have any problems taking care of the Aurangzeb."

Guru Ji tried to use diplomatic means, the destruction of Banda Bahadur and Khalsa Panth was released after these means had failed.

You don’t score victories when you are simply fighting to DEFEND you Moron. In all 14 wars Guru ji fought, they were defensive in nature and Guru Gobind Singh ji never attacked any Pahari Rajas etc. It’s the character of the Khalsa that was built on the Gurmat principles, and Khalsa was willing to die for it, that made it difficult for the Pahari Rajas and Aurangzeb to score any victories. When you fight people who believe in the cause they are fighting for, and are willing to die for it, it is not easy to defeat them. Prime example: Taliban in Afganistan, Al Qaeda against the strongest Armed forces in the world USA etc. (Just so that you don’t get any sick thoughts in your mind, I am not comparing Gursikhs to these individuals). Gursikhs of the time believed in Gurmat Sidhant and willingly sacrificed their lives for it. Not some young computer nerds sitting on a keyboard in an air conditioned room and trying to preach others what they don’t practice themselves.

"it was the wound inflicted by Zafarnama, the Gurmat Gyan Sword, that finally finished Aurangzeb! He came to the realization, only after reading Zafarnama, what horrific actions he had performed in the name of Islam."

Zafarnama, hmmm, where is that from, oh, from Sri Dasam Guru Darbar - where it appears together with the Hikayats - also written in Farsi and thought to be an addition to the Zafarnama by some scholars - in terms of being lessons for Auranga, specifically see Hakayat 2.

Zafarnama: The only authenticated writing penned by Guru Gobind Singh ji that never has been questioned by anybody at anytime. This has been a very clever & desperate move by Pro Dasam Garnth boys to include it in the Bachittar Natak and call it the Dasam Granth.

As for Hekaytan goes, just read the highlighted part of your own sentence and get the answer. And you call me an ignorant?

"If you read Zafarnama, Guru ji is using Gurmat Principles"

Guru Ji doesn't need to 'use' Gurmat principles, he is the Guru, therefore whatever Guru says, is Gurmat.

You got be the retard nobody wishes to come across. You boys acknowledged that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Complete Satguru of the Sikhs. There is NO bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji from Dasam Patshah. Guru Gobind Singh ji gives Gurgaddi to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Guru Gobind Singh ji issues a HUKAM to all Sikhs to follow ONLY Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I want you to take time and read this slowly. I wrote short sentences so you could stay focus and get the point easily. Doesn’t that mean Guru ji followed all Bani & Gurmat Sidhant in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji in His own lifetime? Don’t pay attention to the blinking cursor, it may distract you and you may have to start all over again!

On another note, you are again showing your true Ignoramus self because it seems you have not even read the Zafarnama. If you had, you would know that a fair portion of it dedicated to the battle of Chamkaur - which invokes pure Bir Ras in the manner of Chandi di Vaar.

Where did Guru Hargonind Singh ji get his Bir Ras when there was no ‘Dasam Granth’? Where did he get his Yudh Vidya and discipline for Martial training for his army of Sikhs of 4,000 strong cavalary? Gee, I wonder where?

Is battle of Chamkaur the only one causing Bir Ras? What about Bhagani Yudh? What about Chalee Muktay? The last one is not even in Dasam Granth. Then why bother singing in Guru Darbars? Why bother celebrating Maghi Mela?

Based on your logic, you present Dasam Patshah, as a FORGETTABLE CHARACTER! Here is how: Just imagine, if the ‘Dasam Granth’ was not found at all by some ‘Sikhs’ within the 25 years after Dasam Patshah left this world in body, the whole Khalsa Panth would have been, ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC, bunch of COWARDS!

You think Dasam Patshah would be that irresponsible to leave all this so called ENHANCED GYAN in ‘Dasam Granth’ unattended and unsecured?

"If you Pro Dasam Granth boys do get the Bir Ras, where were you when Nihang Ajit ‘Singh’ Poola was abducting and raping the 14 year old daughter of the Hazoori Ragi from Darbar Sahib? Don’t tell me that you hadn’t read Dasam Granth by then!"

Let me guess, the Singhs that finally did Ajit Singhs seva must have been brave and Gurmat Principle guided CA Singh Sabiyas who attacked Phoola with their gyaan.

Actually you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. The fellow who went after Nihang Ajit ‘Singh’ Poola was the gentleman and a Gursikh simply known as ‘Colonel Sandhu’. He is a member of the Khalsa Panchyat International ( http://khalsapanchayat.org/ ) and very close associate of Bhai Sukhwinder Singh Sabhra. I went to meet this Gursikh last June at his village. This Gursikh literally has turned whole bunch of villages near Sabhra into Khalsa Fauj. The two young guys inside the jail who took care of the paapi were also influenced by Khalsa Panchyat and belong to the same set of villages.

I suggest boys like yourself don’t ever walk into those towns near Hari ke Patan, Srahali, Patti etc. and start shooting your mouth like you do here in this Forum. N30 won't be there to protect you! You can't run to your mommies either Your desecration of Sri Guru Granth Sahib wouldn’t sit well with Khalsa Fauj over there.

By the way they are regularly funded by Singh Sabha International! You can actually go to the Singh Sabha International’s website ( http://www.SinghSabhaCanada.com ) and see the video of Gurcharan Singh Jeonwala holding a camp with Sukhwinder Singh Sabhran.

No one saying the state of the Panth is great, but whilst there are some remarkable Singhs out there, learning about, preserving and promoting nearly extinct Puratan Sikh Gyaan/Rvaaj, there are others like you that are trying to finish off any remnant of real Sikhi with your modernist, Victorian influenced, manmati, self intellect promoting hogwash.

Bunch of hellions.

[singh2]

I wish there was somebody here today (in physical body) with the same high morals and courage as Sri Guru Hargobind Singh ji, then Khalsa Panth wouldn’t be in the predicament of trying decide who its Guru is?

Is Guru harGobind singh ji a new guru of Guru da sikh?

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

First Khalsa Fauj retires then Guru Da Sikh enters the fray.

Good people, I do believe that we have a tagteam on our hands.

I'm just waiting for the Nasty Boys to turn up now.

K.

[randip singh]

To all reading Guru Da Sikh responses, please keep in mind that my responses are the ONLY ones being CENSORED !

Admin Note: Please check your pm message

That really is out of order. Come on Admin, I for one want to see all the facts, and please cut the nasty bile ridden comments out from certain people here. Lets debate the issues and not the people, and find some common ground.

[randip singh]

Lets tidy up this Evangelists ominpresence over the forum - and as he is so knowledgable - lets focus on his gyaan and ask him relevant questions rather than allowing him to curse every post he reads. It will also allow us to understand exactly where he stands in terms of beliefs, making for a better discussion, here are just a few basic things to get us started:

Q1 - What was/is the need for Khalsa and for Singh?

A1 - Khalsa word has been used by both Bhagat Kabeer ji (SGGS Page 655) reads khu kbIr jn Bey Kwlsy pRym Bgiq ijh jwnI ]4]3] kahu kabeer jan bheae khaalasae praem bhagath jih jaanee ||4||3|| Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||. There is also hand written Hukamnama from Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji where he uses the designation Khalsa for his Sikhs.

So Khalsa's foundation has been laid by Bhagat bani and from Guru Nanak Dev ji. It took nearly 230 years to FINISH this beautiful creation we call Khalsa. Khalsa was created to proagate Humanity as God intended and is preached in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, to protect the helpless and help the needy and to show a straight forward way to meet God. Khalsa is the intitution while Singh is the individual member of this most wonderful and unique and everlasting institution.

Q2 - Have you read any purtatan rehitnamai, if so which ones, what are your thoughts on these?

A2 - I have read purtatan rehitnamai book by Piara Singh Padam ji. But when I read his book called Dasam Granth Darshan, and where he states that the Chritar about Bibi Anoop Kaur is Guru Gobind Singh ji`s autobiography, I lost all respect for him. I believe that these purtatan rehitnamai are condesned versions of Sikh teachings prepared by Sikhs of the time under very diffcult times when they were hunted down and executed in large numbers, and they did not have the time to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, like we do today. However, I believe that complete Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the ULTIMATE REHATNAMA of all Sikhs because it is complete and does not have any body else`s views except my Satguru`s. So when in doubt about the validity of any other sources I always ask Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Q3 - Is there any source of Sikh ithihaas you can recommend to us which is free from manipulation - or should we discount all Sikh ithihaas?

A3 - First, majority of the Sikh itihaas was never written by Sikhs themselves as first hand witnesses. I have read Ratan Singh Bhangu ji`s writings where he himself admits that it is what he heard from his forefathers. On top of that, none of his writings or any other Sikh literature has ever been protected by Sikhs like they protected Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Here again, issues like Gur Gaddi Meryada, and some historical scenes are decsribed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji itself.

Lets look at 1984 Ghalughara. I had attended Baba Jarnail Singh ji`s diwans, was there in Punjab at that time. Was very close to Bhai Gurjeet Singh ji (convenor of All India Sikh Student Federation who was engaged to Baba ji`s niece in village Rode and was personal bodygaurd of Baba ji). He mananged to escape on the last day to Pakistan, after Baba ji took Shahidi, and when came back to Punjab carried out over dozen operations near Moga. Was eventually cuaght and killed in a fake encounter. I was also close to Bhai Harbhajan Singh Mand (one of the Nine Member Pathic Committee). Faith dealt him the same card. The day he was picked up by CID from Moga bus stand , I got a call from Moga to here in Canada, but nothing we could do. He was `executed`the next day. POINT here is that I have seen lot first hand. Now when I read this ONLY 25 year old Itihaas, I am shocked at the various versions printed out by various so called `Sikh Intellectuals`despite the fact majority of this is documented in Video & Audio. So how can we be sure that everything we read as Sikh Itihaas is totally true. SO the only way is to test aginst Gurmat. I it passes the Gurmat test then accept it. I don`t think there is any single source of sikh historical reference that has not been attacked by Anti-Sikh coalition.

Q4 - Where did Singhs receive the ferocity they displayed on the battlefield as documented by their enemies, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

A4 - Dasam Granth supporters will have you believe that this comes from Dasam Granth. Well that is NOT the case. Remember MoolMantar. Nirbhau & Nirvair. Well when you follow Gurbani`s teachings in your daily life, you are enlightened with Guru`s Gyan. This starts to remove the curtain of ego that exists between you and God, who lives in your heart. Once you adopt Gurbani teachings then you start to become like God himself, because now both of you have the same qualities. You learn to live life in his Hukam. When you start to become like God (Nirmal), you become Nirbhau. Hence the quality of fearlessness, whhich is the basis of bravery.

Remember Guru ji says (Page 1105): salok kabeer || gagan dhamaamaa baajiou pariou neesaanai ghaao || khaeth j maa(n)ddiou sooramaa ab joojhan ko dhaao ||1|| sooraa so pehichaaneeai j larai dheen kae haeth || purajaa purajaa katt marai kabehoo n shhaaddai khaeth ||2||2||

Remember Guru ji says (Page 1410): jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||

Remember, if you follow the standard Dasam Granthi template that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji makes you a Saint, and Dasam Granh makes you a Soldier, then may be EXPLAIN to me the following;

a) Wars that Guru Hargobind Singh ji fought

cool.gif Shahidi that Guru Arjan Dev ji took

c) Bhai Mati Daas, Bhai Sati Daas, Bhai Dyala ji, and Guru Teg Bahadur ji`s shaheedi took place before this so called Dasam Granth came into being.

Q5 - Do you believe in the SGPC/Panthic rehit maryada? If not, what do you suggest should bind the large part of the Panth together?

A5 - Before I answer this question have a bird`s eye view on the Sikh History just prior to its acceptance. Sikh Gurudwaras were under Masand, Mahants, Nirmalay & Udasey, including Darbar Sahib, Amritsar. May be you heard about the Singh Sabha Lehar, that liberated these Gurudwaras from these anti-Sikh coalition by paying with their lives starting in early 1900s. Those Masand, Mahants, Nirmalay & Udasey, are the same people that prevented Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji from entering Darbar Sahib, Amritsar and also had installed Hindu Idols in eight different places in Darbar Sahib Parkarma. They were literally following Hindu Brahmin`s Meryada (hence the phrase Bipran ki Reet), which is still being carried out exactly the same way at Takhat Hazoor Sahib. Anyway, a code of conduct had to be assembled in order to install Sikhi Rehat Meryada. But the Sikh scholars faced lots of resistance from people who were affected by this Bipran (Brahmin) ki Reet (Meryada) and were influential enough to NOT allow a complete implementation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji`s teachings as the Sikh Rehat Meryada. It is due to this haggling that it took nearly 14 years to come up with a single booklet less than 100 pages in size. Obviously we still have the flaws. For example, look at the word `Sanskar`to describe the rehatmeryada at Birth, Naming, Baptism, Marriage, and Death. Yet the word which is more closely related with the Brahmins in Banaras does NOT APPEAR EVEN ONCE in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

So I follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji`s teachings as my complete Sikh Rehat Meryada.

Q6 - Do you believe any of Sri Dasam Guru Darbar is Gurbani? If so, which parts?

A7 - I believe, when we do Ardass we ask for something very special and that is `Bibek Daan`meaning an intellect to decide wrong from right. Guru ji himself prays for us on page (641) haar pariou suaamee kai dhuaarai dheejai budhh bibaekaa || rehaao || I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect. ||Pause||. Hence, we should perform Gurmat`s litmus test on every word that is written in this so called Dasam Granth. What ever tests true, should be separated and complied into a True Dasam Granth. Rest should be filtered. I have read all of this literature and performing the same test myself and based on that believe with cetainty that Chritro Pakhyan, Chaubis Avtaar, Chandi Chritar, Hekaytaan, Bachitaar Natak could NEVER have been written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Rest Iam working on one line at a time.

Q7 - Do you understand the difference between secularism and spiritualism?

A7 - Lets define them first for those who don`t know what these words mean;

Spiritualism is a dualist metaphysical theory that there exist both physical matter and spirit.

Secularism is the assertion that governmental practices or institutions should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

Lets examine both of these in light of Gurmat: Spiritualism is certainly supported by Gurbani, as the concept of Mind and Body. According to Gurbani this body is created a place for the Soul (Mind) (man too jot saroop hain) to reside.

Secularism is accepted as per Gurmat, but in a slighlty modified way. In a traditional way, Political & Governmental institutions can use religion as a tool (that is what is being done by the current Akali Government in Punjab) to protect and implement their own agendas. However, in Sikhi, this concept is to have political and governmental institutions be dictated by the Gurmat Rehat Meryada of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Hence the concept of Miri & Piri. You noticed that Akal Takhat is located outside the access gate (Darshani Deori) to Harmandir Sahib ji. So that the Jathedars (our religious leaders) and Sikh Political institutions (SGPC, Akali Party, AISSF, ISYF etc.) can SEEK GUIDANCE from Gurmat Gyan in Gurudwar. In order to hurt somebody in the house, your enemy has to enter through this door which is to be guided by these current appointees. Instead they have run inside the Harmandir and taken shleter for their own personal gains and agendas.

Q8 - Could you explain to us the concept of Miri Piri and Shakti Bhakti.

A8 - The fact that Gurbani teaches us to be a perfect living being without any flaws, only full of qualities described in Gurbani leads us to True Bhagati. Guru ji says in Jap ji: vin gun keethae bhagath n hoe || Bhagati is only complete when you acquire qualities (such as Sat, Santokh, daya, Daram, Dheeraj).

Like I said above, this makes you fearless and bravery (Shakti) arises out of this complete set of qualities. Hence, there is no need for any other Granth. Satgur Mera Poora - Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is COMPLETE.

Q9 - Do you believe in the institution of Khande da Amrit and the events of 1699?

A9 - Actually it is called Khande di Pahul. As to what happened inside the tent Guru ji set up to dress up the Panj Piaras is ONLY known to Guru ji. Rest is all speculation by Babas, so called Sants etc. The fact that Sikh was put through his final test of willing to sacrifice his or her life for Gurbani principles, and passed with flying colors and was awarded the Degree of Singh so that he or she could join the institution we know as Khalsa. Like I said before, I have taken Khande di Pahul and pray to God that it stays intact till my last breath !

Q10 - Why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sache Patshah create the Panj Pyare, what purpose/role did/do they serve?

A10 - So whenever it came time to implement any of Gurbani`s principles (Piri), these will guide the Khalsa Panth, provided they are True Panj Piare, meaning every single moment of their lives should be exactly as per Gurmat. But look at what so called Sikhs do today. Go running after so called Sant Mahan Purkh BrahmGiani Vidya Martand etc. as a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL. That is not Guru Gobind Singh ji`s teachings. If we were to get five Sikhs whose life is exactly as per Guru ji prescribed, then they can lead us out of this mess with the lantern of Gurmat in their hands !

Q11 - What are your thoughts on Mul Mantar and Gurmantar?

A11 - Moolmantar is from Ik Onkar to Gurparsad. Rest of the Gurbani is Gurmantar.

Mool means Root (Origin). The whole Universe originated from ONLY ONE GOD. He is completly described in this MoolMantar.

Gurmanatar - Gur means Guru and Mantar means Advise (salah). Gurbani is Guru`s Advise. That is why when we read Sohila Guru ji never gives us Hukam but REQUESTS us; Read Page 13 & 205; karo baena(n)thee sunahu maerae meethaa sa(n)th ttehal kee baelaa || Listen, my friends, I beg of you: now is the time to serve the Saints!

Q12 - Do you accept the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji as cannonical?

A12 - They are helpful in understanding Gurbani, especially when the vaars elaborate on Hindu rituals and mythology. But they were NOT included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I do NOT agree with the notion that these are called Key to Guru Granth Sahib ji. Because Satguru ji says (page 124) sathigur hathh ku(n)jee horath dhar khulai naahee gur poorai bhaag milaavaniaa ||7|| The key is in the hands of the True Guru; no one else can open this door. By perfect destiny, He is met. ||7|| Page (205) jis kaa grihu thin dheeaa thaalaa ku(n)jee gur soupaaee || And the one whose home it is, has locked it up, and given the key to the Guru. Page (1237) gur ku(n)jee paahoo nival man kot(h)aa than shhath || The key of the Guru opens the lock of attachment, in the house of the mind, under the roof of the body. Page (1237) again: naanak gur bin man kaa thaak n ougharrai avar n ku(n)jee hathh ||1|| O Nanak, without the Guru, the door of the mind cannot be opened. No one else holds the key in hand. ||1||

Q13 - What role does kirtan play in 'the way of the Sikh'?

A13 - Kirtan in my personal view is the MOST essential aspect of a Sikh`s daily life, provided you take the time to understand the Gurbani you are singing or listening to. I do it myself and my kids do it too. Without understanding Gurbani, it becomes mere entertainment for some. Once you understand a Gurbani Shabad, then sing it yourself in a raag, you will feel drenched in love for your Guru & God and that is when you end up saying Wah Guru !

Q14 - Are you aware of the roles the Nirmalai, Udasis, Nihangs, Rababis, Dhadis etc have played in Sikh history - is not a coincidence that these and many other unique traditions all agree on the very things that you and Afghana challenge?

A14 - Lets split this into Four parts:

Nirmalai - These are simply Brahmins from Banaris in Sikhi attire. Prime example one staunch supporter of so called Dasam Granth - SWAMI Brahm Dev (see him on youtube). These are the same people that Gurbani rejected & discarded their views of exploitation according to Vedas & Shastars. When they felt their `source of income (exploitation)` threatened by Gurmat Gyan for the ordinary folks, they decided to take matter into their own hands. They studied Guru Granth Sahib ji in detail, understood it and created this Dasam Granth as a parallel to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is the same policy today`s modern warfare system uses: Understand your enemy`s source of strength, attack and destroy it. The most common reason why most Sikhs fall prey to this plan is that very cleverly these Nirmalas used stanzas at the start and end of various chapters that will sometime look and sound similar to the ones from Gurbani. But when you read the complete chapters carefully, it becomes obvious that its nothing but a sugar coated poison pill. DON`T LET ME CONVINCE YOU BUT READ FOR YOURSELF THE WHOLE so called DASAM GRANTH and see for yourself.

Udaseye: - This sect was started by the two sons of Guru Nanak Dev ji out of resentment when Bhai Lehna ji was given Gurta Gaddi and called Guru Angand Dev ji. One of the sons became a hermit and started this sect. Since people had so much respect for Guru ji and by default respected these two sons. Even today you can see this sect perform acts exactly as the Jogis and Sadhus of Guru Nanak ji`s times that Guru ji himself rejected in Sidh Gost Bani. They started this sect as a challenge to Guru Nanak ji so how can their acts be considered as some sort of sewa to Sikhism. They are the enemy from within !

Dhadis - From Sixth Patshahi onwards, these Dhadis were there to remind the Sikhs of their History. Unfortunately, now a days they have also fallen prey by simply singing whatever is available to them without testing against Gurmat, since these people are not very interested in Gurmat Veechar.

Rababi - Well, what can I say. Kaljug mein Kirtan Pardhana. And the beauty of the Raags is manifold when a Rabab plays in a Kirtan darbar.

Are you even familiar with Prof Sahib Singhs opions on the above issues? YES

I have taken all this time to answer all of your questions. Lets see if you have the same patience and courage as I did to answer some of my questions;

1. Do you think Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is Complete Guru. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

2. If not, then prove it.

3. If yes, then what is missing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that Guru Gonind Singh ji needed a separate Granth for Sikhs. Please explain.

4. Do you believe that Dasam Patshah recited the whole Bir in Damdama Sahib and was written by Bhai Mani Singh ji. If so why was not his own writings included in it. Its not that those writings were missing !

5. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

6. Post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from so called Dasam Granth.

I will have about 8 more follow up questions once you have answered these. This way you & I will be on even terms, LOL !

I WILL LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU DIRECTLY AND PLEASE NO INTERFERENCE FROM OTHERS SINCE WE ARE HAVING A VERY CIVILIZED DISCUSSION.

Bhul Chuk Maaf, Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Dhanvaad Jeeo.

Where is the line by line response from the otherside?

[Matheen]

That really is out of order. Come on Admin, I for one want to see all the facts, and please cut the nasty bile ridden comments out from certain people here. Lets debate the issues and not the people, and find some common ground.

Veer ji, N30 already explained that only one post was moderated - because it was personal or something. GDS posted the exact same thing someplace else, where the mods replied. Every point he made has been answered - if not here then in the specific topics N30 created under 'formal discussions'.

[shaheediyan]

Gorai da Sikh,

Your flimsy replies don't even warrant a response - I would like to say you are master of aversion, but that would imply you had some form of subtlety and grace in your covering up of ignorance, unfortunately you don't.

Re Khalsapanchayat, it doesn't surprise me that they are funded by Fake Singh Sabha International (well CA actually), the state of their website speaks volumes. Its interesting to note the hate and accusations you have for Sri Dasam Bani Singhs - calling us desecrators of Sri Guru Granth Sahib etc. How does this fit in with your respect for Baba Jarnail Singh, is he too a desecrator of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, please answer this question.

Funny how your Khalsapanchayat group have heavy ties with Sikh Student Federation - who are avid supporters of Baba Jarnail Singh, who himself had complete faith in all of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.

More knots in your rope.

[singh2]

Funny how your Khalsapanchayat group have heavy ties with Sikh Student Federation - who are avid supporters of Baba Jarnail Singh, who himself had complete faith in all of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.

Everyone knows khalsa panchayat is a creation of congress. They have no ties with sikh students federation as Sikh students were the ones who beat them badly in Harmandir sahib complex as they were holding demonstrations( against maryada) in the complex.

[singh2]

That really is out of order. Come on Admin, I for one want to see all the facts, and please cut the nasty bile ridden comments out from certain people here. Lets debate the issues and not the people, and find some common ground.

Randip

Why do not you put the questions for them. We can asnwer your questions one by one. You write that you have read Dasam Granth sahib.