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Charitro Pakhyan - Sri Dasam Granth Sahib


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"Chritar Three hundred and twelve

Tale of a Woman of Jat

Chaupaee

Jog Sen was a dauntless Raja, who had won over many enemies.

Saniyaas Mati was his wife who was very wise and talented.(l)

After sometime she gave birth to a son who was given the education

of Raam Bairaag.

Growing and growing young, he turned out to be a very handsome.(2)

There used to live a daughter of a Jat, the peasant, who saw the prince

and fell in love with him.

She would go to his house every day but the prince would not, even,

look at her.(3)

The woman was very much afflicted and she thought over a deception.

She contemplated to put or the garb of an ascetic.( 4)

Disguised as an austere, she went to his house and performed many

incantations.

She filched his heart and stole all the wealth from his house.(5)

One day she told him, ‘The ascetics can make dead bodies to get up.

‘You come with me and experience this miracle.’(6)

Dohira

‘So far, 1 have not seen a dead body becoming alive,

‘Now, through my affection with the ascetic, I will see that too.’(7)

Chaupee

When half the night had gone and it was pitch dark, the prince thought,

(631)

‘I will go alone with the ascetic and watch the getting up of a dead

body and come home.’(8)

He left along with the ascetic without understanding the female deception.

He was all alone and had not taken any arms with him.(9)

When they arrived in the thick forest, where there was no one else present,

The woman said, ‘My Dear Prince, Listen to me,(lO)

Woman Talk

‘Either you forget the desire of retaining life or you come and make

love with me.

‘Either 1 will cut you into seven pieces or you lay the male-organ in

my vagina.’(11)

As the prince got extremely terrified, he made love with the woman.

She had deceived him through this trick and had sex with him.(l2)

Nobody has ever reached the depths of woman’s mind and, even,

Brahma, the Creator repented after making them.

The One who instituted the Universe, he could not understand the

female traits.(l3)

312th Parable of Auspicious Chritars

Conversation of the Raja and the Minister,

Completed with Benediction. (312)(5949)

To be continued."

Raam Bhairaag doesn't appear to be the name of the Prince as you have insinuated, but rather the type of Marg the Maharani has instructed her son to follow.

Any numpty can see that the Prince was allured by a miracle when his dhyaan should have been elsewhere, as well as showing its good to keep shastar with you at all times, lol!

The way that you quote selective lines that must appeal to you is sickening. You take no interest in anything else from the story except that detail which has been included to shock and instill reality into the audience, otherwise it would not be a cautionery tale.

These are cautionery tales for adults living in a dangerous world (certainly back then, and almost certainly today too).

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The Khalsa Fauj,

If you want to discuss any charitar, please post full charitar from this point like shaheediyan did if you want proper discussion if you refuse to do that and start nit picking this debate will not go anywhere.

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Short Description of Charito Pakyan from patsahi10.org

This composition highlights the various faces of woman. While the positive roles played by woman as a wife, as a mother, as a soldier are outlined, the negative aspect of some women who stoop to lowly activities has also been brought out.

It begins by elucidating the extreme bravery and courage of Devi Bhagwati and highlights her various deeds of glory. This is followed by the various positive ways in which women contribute to the welfare of their families in particular and society in general. The examples are drawn from theMahabharata, Puranas, Brihat Katha, Katha Sahitya Saagar, Alif Laila, Ayaarey Dayish and other comtemporary literature. On reading about the various characters included in this composition one also gets an insight into the culture, tradition and values of the society and region of which they are a part.

Thus, through the given examples, Guru Ji has formulated a very strong value system for the reader, laying down rules to be upheld and followed by both men and women so that a society free from all mortal sins may be formed.

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Poet says boyfriend and girlfriend has sexual intercourse for 12 hours. How does he know? Was he there at the scene? Would he have given us video if he was here in present times? Just asking questions.

yaar, for Guru's sake, stop embarrassing yourself. You seem to be completely ignorant of eastern poetry. Over exaggeration is a common element in poetry composed in South Asia and the Middle East. Don't take the 12 hours literally.

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to warn the Khalsa of the worldly moral pitfalls to be wary of, their subtleties and how to avoid them

thus they are essentially cautionary, character-building and didactic--they are not LITERAL or MIMETIC

which you people don't seem to understand so what's wrong with that,

even Shakespeare has done this in his plays by creating lewd characters such as the Gravediggers

for comedic and didactic purposes, same as the great Italian Opera Pagliacci

(not to mention 10 Charitars on the avoidence of intoxicants and alcohol)

PROVE TO ME THAT THEY ARE FUNDAMENTALLY LUST-INDUCING AND NOT DIDACTIC

you people have no understanding of poetic conventions and World Literature,

do you find the Purgatorio Cantos of Dante's Divine Comedy where the incestuous,

adulterous sins of damned souls are related and their punishments offensive?

CHARITRO PAKIYA IS THE SAME THING

Go read about the literary concept of the Carnivalesque

that is what Charitro Pakia is all about.

I don't think these guys understand all the words you are using. You should probably define the words 'didactic', 'mimetic', and 'prove' for them.

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yaar, for Guru's sake, stop embarrassing yourself. You seem to be completely ignorant of eastern poetry. Over exaggeration is a common element in poetry composed in South Asia and the Middle East. Don't take the 12 hours literally.

How do you know? You have written sexual stories and ahve read sexual stories from other sources to know this? You are the one embarassing yourself by saying Guru Ji wrote stories mentioning how long people had sexual intercourse for. These stories are said to be written for morals, so they should be close to truth. So how long do you think the scene went on for? When Gurbani says charasee lakh joon, is that over xaggeration too or is that also a metaphorical #? If you are willing to agree that chaurasee is a metaphorical number then I will agree with you that 12 hours aren't actually 12 hours but something around there. Could be a bit higher or a bit lower. Safe?

By the way, it isn't embarassing to say that Guru Ji got fooled by a prostitute as per Chariter 16 and Anoop Kuar as per chariters 21-23? It isn't embarassing to take someone's writing and write Paatshahi 10 on it when the names of writers are clearly mentioned?

It won't be embarrasing when you read read the following to your mom or sister and say it is Guru Ji's bani?

ਇਕ ਦਿਨ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਤੇ ਲਈ। ਪੋਸਤ ਸਹਿਤ ਅਫੀਮ ਚੜ੍ਹਈ। ਬਹੁ ਰਤਿ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਬੀਰਜ ਗਿਰਾਈ। ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਲਗਿ ਕੁਅਰਿ ਬਜਾਈ। ੧੦। ਸਭ ਨਿਸਿ ਨਾਰਿ ਭੋਗ ਜਬ ਪਾਯੋ। ਬਹੁ ਆਸਨ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਖ ਬਢਾਯੋ। ਤਾ ਪਰ ਤਰੁਨਿ ਚਿਤ ਅਟਕੀ। ਭੂਲਿ ਗਈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੁਧਿ ਘਟ ਕੀ। ੧੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੨੫, ੫.੫ ੧੫}

Ik Din Bhaang Mittr Tay Laee| Post Sahett Afeem Charrahaee| Bahu Rutt Kuree Naa Beerajj Giraaee| Aath Pehar Lug Kuar Bajaaee| 10| Sabh niss Naar Bhog Jubb Paayo| Bahu Aasan Kurr Hurkh Badaayo| Taa Purr Tarunn Chitt Utkee| Bhool Gaee Sabh He Sudh Ghut Kee| 11| {Chariter 325, 5.5, 15}

One day her friend took cannabis. Poppy husk was taken with opium. He banged the princess for 24 hours but didn’t ejaculate even once. 10. When the woman felt pleasure all night she took many positions in joy. She felt deep pleasure and completely forgot about herself. 11.

* I used the word banged because poet used the word bajaaee meaning banged.

Koee sharam karo besharmo. Eho jahee shotay darjay dee rachnaa nu Guru Gobind Singh Ji naal jordeaa nu tuhaanu sharam nahee aundee? Jaa tuhaadee jameer mar chukee hai?

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Gurbani says God is Purakh. Look at quotes below:

ਕੀਰਤਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਸਗਲ ਜਨ ਤੇਰੀ ਤੂ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਿ ਦੁਆਰੇ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ ੬੭੦}

ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਭ ਨਾਰੀ ਸਭੁ ਏਕੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ ੯੮੩}

Nirgun means the one who is above the three elements on maayaa.

Sargun means supreme sublime Lord.

Gurbani does not say God is male. The above quotes are symbolic of God's position with respect to us.

Gurbani says God is neither male nor female. How can God have gender when God is not born.

ਸੁੰਨ ਮੰਡਲ ਇਕੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਬੈਸੇ ॥ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕੋਊ ਕੈਸੇ

unn mandal ik Yogi baise. Naar na purakh kahahu kou kaise

The Yogi, the Primal Lord, sits in the Realm of Absolute Stillness. God is neither male nor female; how can anyone describe Him

ang 685

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Gurbani does not say God is male. The above quotes are symbolic of God's position with respect to us.

Gurbani says God is neither male nor female. How can God have gender when God is not born.

ਸੁੰਨ ਮੰਡਲ ਇਕੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਬੈਸੇ ॥ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕੋਊ ਕੈਸੇ

unn mandal ik Yogi baise. Naar na purakh kahahu kou kaise

The Yogi, the Primal Lord, sits in the Realm of Absolute Stillness. God is neither male nor female; how can anyone describe Him

ang 685

You are right that God doesn't have a gender when it comes to physical atrributes because God isn't something physical but Guru Ji addresses God as Male and Jeev as female. Yes or not? Because if we make jeev istree male and also God male, then the relationship turns into you know what. It doesn't remain that of husband and wife. You have to understand what Guru Ji is saying and not just use random quotes. I gave you quotes where Guru Ji clearly respected God as male husband and humans as jeev istree (female). If you don't understand this, I say more bani needs to be read. How many times does Gurbani says that the wife, the bride is waiting for khasam, swami? You can find out by reading Gurbani.

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I haven't had the time to answer valli's questions. I have been busy with other threads. I can't be in 7 threads at once.

Now I will disucss here show you how foolish these stories are. You guys are extracting morals by force from these stories. By that logic, morals can be extracted from porn movies also.

By the way, it isn't embarassing to say that Guru Ji got fooled by a prostitute as per Chariter 16 and Anoop Kuar as per chariters 21-23? It isn't embarassing to take someone's writing and write Paatshahi 10 on it when the names of writers are clearly mentioned?

Who is the king of Anandpur?

Who are Sikhs?

Who is the one known as Guru in the whole country and visited by everyone?

Who gives boons to Sikhs in Anandpur?

Who was Anandpur established by?

Where is Anandppur located?

Once you have answers to these, you will that that story is a clear cheap shot at Guru Gobind SIngh Ji. Even the pro Dasam GRanth mafia such as Padam, Virsa, Sher Singh, etc. and other guys say and have said. First go talk to all those guys and make a decision. When you peple want to quote par naaree kee sayj bhool supnay hoo na jaeou then it is said by Guru Gobind SIngh, other times the character is someone else? Do you guys have a clear stand on this?

Sikhs get morals by learning from Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Let me give you a sample on how moral is given.

ਪਰ ਧਨ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਪਰਹਰੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਬਸੈ ਨਰਹਰੀ ॥ ੧॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੧੧੬੩}

Par Dhan Par Daaraa Parharee || Taa Kai Nikat Bsai Narharee || 1||

God resides near a person who stays away from another’s wealth and spouse. 1.

If above quote from your Guru isn't going to convince you. Long stories of poet Shyam, Raam and Kaal have no chance. Especially when they write stuff such as below:

ਸੁਨਤ ਸਹਚਰੀ ਬਚਨ ਸਜਨ ਕੇ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਗਈ। ਜਿਮਿ ਤਿਮਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਬੋਧ ਤਹਾ ਲ੍‍ਯਾਵਤ ਭਈ। ਮਿਲਤ ਛੈਲਨੀ ਛੈਲ ਅਧਿਕ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਯੋ। ਹੋ ਭਾਤਿ ਭਾਤਿ ਕੀ ਕੈਫਨ ਨਿਕਟ ਮੰਗਾਇਯੋ। ੪। ਕਿਯਾ ਕੈਫ ਕੌ ਪਾਨ ਸੁ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਜੰਕ ਪਰ। ਭਾਤਿ ਭਾਤਿ ਤਨ ਰਮੇ ਬਿਹਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਰਿ ਨਰ। ਕੋਕ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਕੌ ਬਿਹਸਿ ਉਚਾਰਿ ਕੈ। ਹੋ ਆਪੁ ਬੀਚ ਕੰਧਨ ਪਰ ਹਾਥਨ ਡਾਰਿ ਕੈ। ੫। ਅਧਿਕ ਜੋਰ ਤਨ ਦੋਊ ਤਹਾ ਕ੍ਰੀੜਾ ਕਰੈ। ਮਨ ਮੈ ਭਏ ਅਨੰਦ ਨ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ। ਲਪਟਿ ਲਪਟਿ ਕਰ ਜਾਹਿ ਸੁ ਛਿਨਿਕ ਨ ਛੋਰਹੀ। ਹੋ ਸਕਲ ਦ੍ਰਪ ਕੰਦ੍ਰਪ ਕੋ ਤਹਾ ਮਰੋਰਹੀ। ੬। ਭੋਗ ਕਰਤ ਤਰੁਨੀ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਯੋ। ਕਰਤ ਕੇਲ ਰਜਨਿਯਹਿ ਬਿਤਾਯੋ। ਪਹਿਲੀ ਰਾਤਿ ਬੀਤ ਜਬ ਗਈ। ਪਾਛਿਲ ਰੈਨਿ ਰਹਤ ਸੁਧਿ ਲਈ। ੭। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੯੩, ੫.੬, ੬੩}

Sunnat Sahcharee Bachan Sajjan Kay Greh Gaee| Jim Tim Taahe Parbodh Tahaa Leyaavat Bhaee| Millat Shailnee Shail Adhik Sukh Paaeyo| Ho Bhaant Bhaant Kee Kaifan Nikkat Mungaaeyo| 4| Keyaa Kaif Kau Paan Su Duhoo Parjunk Pur| Bhaant Bhaant Tun Rmay Behas Kar Naar Nur| Koke Shaastar Tay Mut Kau Behas Ouchaar Kai| Ho Aap Beech Kundhan Par Haathan Daar Kai| 5| Adhik Jore Tun Doaou Tahaa Kareerra Krai| Mun Mai Anand Na Kahoo Tay Drai| Lappat Lappat Kur Jaahe Su Shinnik Na Shorehee| Ho Sakkal Darap Kundarap Ko Tahaa Marorehee| 6| Bhoag Karat Tarunee Sukh Paayo| Karat Kail Rujneyahe Betaayo| Pahelee Raat Beet Jub Gaee| Paashil Raien Rahat Sudh Laee| 7|

Hearing the words of princess, her friend left for the house of princess’s boyfriend. Somehow, she convinced him to meet princess. Young princess felt lots of pleasure after meeting him. She ordered many types of liquor. 4. Both of them drank liquopr while sitting on the bed and had many types of sexual intercourse. They recited the teachings of Koka Shastra and hadsexual intercourse by placing their hands on shoulders of each other. 5. Then they started pushing hard when having sexual intercourse. They forgot about fear of others and enjoyed having sexual intercourse. They were clinging to each other and weren’t willing to leave each other for even an instance. They broke the ego of god of sexual desire. 6. Woman received lots of pleasure having sex and they spent the whole night doing it. Both of them thought of an idea when it was near sun rise. 7.

If you want to discuss any charitar, please post full charitar from this point like shaheediyan did if you want proper discussion if you refuse to do that and start nit picking this debate will not go anywhere.

I write a summary of the story because in the end, no one remembers the whole story but the summary. It is best to analyze the teaching from the summary. Not only that, the chariters are repetitive with useless lines which I will talk about later.

This is last request, if you planning to post any charitars now. Post the whole charitar then bold the parts you find questionable. Thats not a problem, but taking line or two out of full charitar and taking them out of context not a sensible way to debate. it's called guerrilla debating.

It wasn't a line or two. It was eight complete tukhs. Please read again. Show me where the word lundaa is used in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Lundaa isn't a civilized word. It is a word used in a profane manner. Correct word would have been indree or something like that.

Valli said these stories are supposed to be mimetic, didactive and prooving.

I have some questions:

1. You said these stories are mimetic. Who are these stories imitating? Real characters? Fake characters? Who? Who or what are they resembling in these stories?

2. You said these stories are didactic. Before we proceed further, lets take a look at definition of didactic based on an official dictionary.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/didactic

1 a: designed or intended to teach b: intended to convey instruction and information as well as pleasure and entertainment <didactic poetry>

2: making moral observations

If we go by the first definition, it sure fits entertainment and pleasure purpose. Second definition says making moral observations. These stories just tell tales on what a woman did or what the king did or what bhoot prayt did. Other than that, morals of these stories are given at the end. Do you agree that these stories are entertaining and for pleasure?

3. You said these stories are proving. What are they proving? That women are bad and they can't be understood even by God? If yes, then I agree that this is what these stories are doing. They are taking cheap shots at God and women.

Once you have answered these questions, we will move forward with what you are saying.

Also, what would be an erotic story as per you? Please give example.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No we will discuss chariter which sheedi degh quoted:

There Raja Chiter Singh to the Minister, ‘Whatever you said, it has eliminated any treachery from my mind. ‘Whatever you tell me, it is like putting nectar into my ears.’(1)

Dohira

‘Concentrating on your mind, body and soul, Oh My Minister, I request you, ‘What ever number of Auspicious Chritars you know, relate them to me.’(2) There was one-eyed Raja whose woman was a pervert. (This is) how she enjoyed with her friend after putting coloured

powder in the eyes of the Raja.(3)

Chaupaee

‘With the approach of the spring, bloomed the hearts of the males and females. Every house was showered with bliss and they revelled in singing with clapping hands.(4) There was one female called Chaachar Mati who was pretty and endowed with a very slim body. There was one Raja named Mani Sen who he had a wife called Chaachar Mati (5)

(78)

When she saw a handsome acrobat, she felt as if she was shot by the Cupid arrow. All her mind, body and soul were subdued, and she became like an acquired slave.( 6)

Dohira

The songs were recited in every home and every home had dances the beats of the drums.(7)

There came the acrobat, who seemed to be the Raja of all the acrobats, And he, whose name was Navrang, was epitome of the Cupid.(8)

Chaupaee

Holy, the festival of colours was at full swing in the town, and every man and woman danced and sang. The old enjoyed with old and threw flowers on each other.(9)

Dohira

In the company of drums-beats, songs of Holy were Sung in every house. The harmonies were flowing at every door-step and music was report in all the households.(10) The damsels were singing the songs in unison and enacting plays, The music flowing out of flutes, trumpets and bongos was prevailing all over.(11)

Chaupaee

The males and the females were sharing the amusements. From both sides colours were sprinkled under the efficacy of music.(12)

Dohira

In the multitude of males, females and the damsels, The saffron colour apparels were predominant.(13) Every household was busy in playing Holy and singing jovially, The voices of bongos accompanied by the dances were emanating from eachhouse.(l4 ) That young man was entrapped by her looks, And the Rani, as well, was immediately entangled in his love.(l5) Every man and woman was savouring the songs of spring, When, suddenly, the dust-storm subdued the vision.(l6) Soon after the music was ensued the voices of the flutes started to emanate The melodies, accompanied with the drums, commenced to flow again.(17)

(79)

Chaupaee .

The sprinkling of colours became so intense that even the hand was not visible The Rani put colour in her husband’s eyes and blinded him(18) Dohira

He was already blind of one eye and other was shut with the colours too:

Becoming total blind, the Raja fell flat on the ground.( 19)

The Rani, then, called Navrang at that instant. She passionately kissed him and fully enjoyed.(20) By the time the Raja got up and cleared his vision, The Rani, after enjoying heart-fully made the acrobat to run away.(21)(1)

So now if we read the whole story carefully we see that the writer (Poet Raam) mentions the name of Chachar Mati twice for no apparent reason. He is just trying to make the story long which is one indication that this story isn't for morals but entertainment. He also mentions holy and colors several times which also wasn't needed. If we use logic, king fell to the ground just because he had color in his eye. How muc logic does this statement have? Also, no one answered how it is possible to have sexual enjoyment in public without anyone else seeing. There is not a King in the world that would have met another king without any guards around. Especially in the older times when kings were always looking for chances to take over kingdoms of other kings. Clearly this story doesn't fit the basics of history and logic so then how could it give morals when Mss. Mati was able to fulfill her wish and get away? Also, don't try to dodge the question about the quote I posted about 12 hours and lundaa. Was that needed in a moral story? I am sure it wasn't because I don't see anything like tria chariters in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If Sikhs didn't bhagats didn't need such sexual stories for morals for 700 years, they weren't needed after either and aren't needed now. No one really reads these stories for morals because they aren't. Like I said before, you can extract moral out of anything by imagining things. I still haven't gotten a clear answer if you guys agree that these stories aren't written by Guru Gobind SIngh Ji but poets Raam, Shyam and Kaal or do I need to make a poll for that too?

It shows how easy it is for one to deceive, and that one should not think that those infected with such a high level of kaam, make exceptions on holy/celebratory days.

Who was saying that anyways? Once again, making assumptions yourself and answering them yourself?

If it wasn't for the suppression of what really happened in society (good and bad) and the normality of sex, we wouldn't be living in an age where sex is advertised, celebrated, sung, watched etc etc.

How is sex suppressed in today's world when it is expressed widely on TV and other forms of media?

The many Gursikh, Sants, Academics, Theologians from 1700 to 1900 were obviously incapable of Gurmat thought, it took a Victorian education to 'see the light'!

Guru Ji, bhagats, sikhs and bhatts were incapabl from 1000 to 1708 so it took poets Shyam, Raam and Kaal to give morals to Sikhs? Lets see the results of morals from Dasam Granth between 1708 and 1900.

1) Maharaja Ranjit Singh indulging in bigamy and sodomy.

2) Sikh missals fighting each other for land

3) Jassa Singh Ramgaria killing daughter because she was a daughter. He must have read:

ਇਨ ਇਸਤ੍ਰਿਨ ਕੇ ਚਰਿਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ। ਸਜਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਨ੍‍ਯੋ ਇਨ ਕਰਤਾਰਾ। ੨੫। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੨੨, ੫.੫, ੯}

In Istreean Kay Chariter Apaaraa| Suj Pashtaaneyo In Kartaaraa| 25| 1|

The games of these women are beyond understanding. Even God is regretting after creating them. 25. 1.

Don't say I am posting single line because that is the final stanza of the story giving the moral or morals.

4) Statues of hindu devi devtas getting into Sikh Gurduaras

5) Hari cutting going on in front of Akaal Takht

6) Sikh missals joining mughals to attack other Sikh missals

7) Ranjit Singh bringing non Sikhs to control Sikh raaj

8) Banda Singh being turned on by so-called Tat Khalsa

9) And many other points which I forgot to mention

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By the way, it isn't embarassing to say that Guru Ji got fooled by a prostitute as per Chariter 16 and Anoop Kuar as per chariters 21-23? It isn't embarassing to take someone's writing and write Paatshahi 10 on it when the names of writers are clearly mentioned?

As said before ( lost count how many times), the guru in the charittar is not Guru Ji! The language is simple.......

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Khalsa Fauji,

This is last request, if you planning to post any charitars now. Post the whole charitar then bold the parts you find questionable. Thats not a problem, but taking line or two out of full charitar and taking them out of context not a sensible way to debate. it's called guerrilla debating.

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I have had no education in understanding the objectives of these charitras, but when seeing them in full (unlike the selective lines Khalsa Fudge quotes) one can see how the story develops. We are told at the start that Chaachar Mati is a pervert. The reality of society is simply being relayed here - both women and men are infected with this aspect of kaam. It also shows how man can be easily deceived, and may even relate that a disabled man is more vulnerable/susceptible to deception. It shows how easy it is for one to deceive, and that one should not think that those infected with such a high level of kaam, make exceptions on holy/celebratory days.

This is what you are extracting and not what the story is teaching. Story is teaching us how one can fool her husband and get away.

Just out of interest, what would you have advised Ras Manjri to do in this situation - give the thieves a sermon?

This is a tale of cunning, courage and how a woman has protected her honour against all odds.

Depending on how one looks at it, it could also be a lesson for the then persecuted, unhomed chalda vaheer Khalsa, a lesson to not succomb to kaamic thoughts and offers when asking villagers for help etc - as there were many spies male and female during those times that would have used much trickery to entrap the subjects of their reward (£$). It could be looked at allegorically. Just my opinion in any case.

There are always lessons to be learnt.

What do you suggest? Offer sexual intercourse and fool them? Ijjat and maan sanmaan is more important than money. Honor, dignity and self-respect are always more important than any amount of wealth. Once you understand this, you will be against chariters.

Are you trying to say that Sikhs who were hunted during 18th century were thieves? How can you even think about comparing them to thieves? Those Sikhs of the past were much greater people than the nihungs you see these days. These nihungs go to villagers and force them to give wheat and rice or other goods. What kind of Gurmat is that? Gurbani says:

Ghaal Khaaye Kish Hatho Deh Nanak Rah Pashaanay Say

Sikhs never forced villagers for food or other goods. They gave them an offer to protect them from tyrants and attackers in exchange for food and clothing. Once again, you are analyzing the story out of context and running away from the points I raised about the story being logical or possible. Why waste time trying to learn morals from something that isn’t remotely possible? Then they say these stories aren’t for entertainment. Imaginary stories which aren’t possible in reality can only be for entertainment and pleasure.

As for lessons to be learnt, you can watch an adult movie for entertainment and say I learnt this and this lesson. You can kill someone and say I did to learn a lesson by saying I killed the person to know how to kill someone in future. Where do we draw the line?

Raam Bhairaag doesn't appear to be the name of the Prince as you have insinuated, but rather the type of Marg the Maharani has instructed her son to follow.

Any numpty can see that the Prince was allured by a miracle when his dhyaan should have been elsewhere, as well as showing its good to keep shastar with you at all times, lol!

The way that you quote selective lines that must appeal to you is sickening. You take no interest in anything else from the story except that detail which has been included to shock and instill reality into the audience, otherwise it would not be a cautionery tale.

These are cautionery tales for adults living in a dangerous world (certainly back then, and almost certainly today too).

Caution based on that story is even God makes mistakes and regrets. Even God doesn’t understand women. Stay away and don’t trust them. I see there are about 10 pro Dasam Granth promoters promoting these stories slandering women. Do you think your own moms and sisters are like those mentioned in Dasam Granth? Do you trust your own moms, sisters and daughters or you don’t trust them either and think they are mistakes by God as the chariter implies. Please clarify. This isn’t an attack on your moms or sisters or daughters but your opinion.

Once again, all of you are avoiding the final line saying even God doesn’t understand women. Is that according to Gurmat? If no, then what use are morals that question God? Who are atheists now? Those who oppose writings questioning God’s authority, reach, understanding and capability or those who are promoting these anti-Gurmat writings?

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Hai Rabba :blink:

Take a course in literature.......

I don't need course on perverted literature. I didn't ven like shakespeare in high school. It was more boring than chariters. At least chariters give you funny stories at times. Eg. below:

Chariter 40 further proves that these stories are written for pleasure only. A jatt (farmer) and his wife had problems in their relationships. Jatt’s wife often beat him and used foul language for him. She also performed opposite of what the husband wanted. The days for shraads were near. Shraads occur when people offer food to their dead ancestors by feeding Brahmans. Jatt tells his wife not to feed the Brahmans so she orders him to feed the Brahmans. Jatt gets his wish by speaking the opposite of what he wanted. Then Jatt decided to kill her and get rid of her for good. He told her not to visit her parents but she said she is going to visite her parents. Then, Jatt offered her a buggy but she said no. When they reached the bank of the river, Jatt asked her to get in the canoe. She said she is going to cross by holding onto the tail of an ox. While in the middle of the river, Jatt requested his wife to hold the tail tightly. She did the opposite as usual and let the tail go. She fell in the river and drowned while shouting and slurring abuses at the Jatt.

So now what teaching does this Chariter give? There is no teaching in this story which is useful. All it is doing is giving an idea on how to kill wife and get away clean. What does it have to with Sikhs? Story is trying to say that those who don’t beat their wives are cowards and don’t have a life. This is just a funny story which some people might like to hear. Another big question is what was an ox doing in the water? Ox was crossing the river to visit his parents too or was the cow pulling a Chariter on the ox? Maybe the ox didn’t like the cow so he did the opposite just like Jatt’s wife. Cow probably crossed the river in a canoe while ox was swimming across. Story is saying jatts are stupid which is true otherwise they wouldn't be promoting stories which defame them. Are there any ankhee jatts on this board or just a bunch of beankhees who like besharam stories for morals?

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I must say guru da sikh and Khalsa Fauj makes some excelent points in how we should'n belive these degrading remarks about women could be penned by the Gurus....

Here are some other charitars and interesting quotes i found on how men should be aware of womens power:

I think the moral of the following charitar is that men should be aware of their wives, as they tend to turn them against their parents.

The enchantress wife with her charms made the husband dote on her.

He forgot the parents who had given him birth and had got him married.

Having made vows of offerings and considerd many good and bad omens and auspicious combinations, his marriage had been arranged by them.

Seeing at the meetings of the son and the daughter-in-law, the parents had felt over­joyed

The bride then started continuously advising the husband to desert his parents instigating that they had been tyrants.

Forgetting the benefactions of parents, the son alongwith his wife got separated from them

Now the way of the world has become grossly immoral.

the above "charitar" says women are to be blamed for the worlds immorality.

here is another interesting quote:

Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.

Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.

What kind of morals are these, condemning women?? we as sikhs should discard and reject such teachings from the Dasam Granth.. ooh wait.. its not from the Dasam Granth... its Bhai Gurdass vaar and Guru Granth Sahib

Vaar 37 Pauri 12 and Ang 304.

Do you also rejects these pauris and shabads because they dont fit in with your own views and thoughts??

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Did you read my post?

If you did you would have had your answers, your above post reveals that you

did not comprehend my post and have still to prove your point

PROVE THAT THE CHARITARS ARE FOR ENTERTAINMENT

I already did that. Otherwise there was no need to describe sexual scenes and write funny stories such as the one about jatt and jatti. I have read that story to many people. Everyone said it is entertaining.

the 'films' you speak about in your weak example are not DIDACTIC

so even if one were to learn something from them it would be contrary to their

very purpose, this is not the same thing because Charitro-Pakhiyan is Literature

it is didactic poetry thus it was written to reveal the evils prevalent in a certain class of women

and not all women,

Chariters are the same way. If they were for education, there was no need to describe the wrinkling of bed and kisses and other related happenings.

ਭਾਤਿ ਭਾਤਿ ਕੇ ਚਤੁਰਾਸਨ ਕਰਿ। ਭਜਯੋ ਤਾਹਿ ਤਰ ਦਾਬਿ ਭੁਜਨ ਭਰਿ। ਚੁੰਬਨ ਆਸਨ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਚਛਨ। ਕੋਕ ਕਲਾ ਕੋਬਿਦ ਸਭ ਲਛਨ। ੧੪। ਪੋਸਤ ਸ੍ਰਾਬ ਅਫੀਮ ਬਹੁ ਘੋਟਿ ਚੜਾਵਤ ਭੰਗ। ਚਾਰਿ ਪਹਰ ਭਾਮਹਿ ਭਜਾ ਤਊ ਨ ਮੁਚਾ ਅਨੰਗ। ੧੫। ਭੋਗ ਕਰਤ ਸਭ ਰੈਨਿ ਬਿਤਾਵਤ। ਦਲਿ ਮਲਿ ਸੇਜ ਮਿਲਿਨ ਹਵੈ ਜਾਵਤ। ਹੋਤ ਦਿਵਾਕਰ ਕੀ ਅਨੁਰਾਈ। ਛੈਲ ਸੇਜ ਮਿਲਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਿਛਾਈ। ੧੬। ਪੌਢਿ ਪ੍ਰਜੰਕ ਅੰਕ ਭਰਿ ਸੋਊ। ਭਾਂਗ ਅਫੀਮ ਪਿਯਤ ਮਿਲਿ ਦੋਊ। ਬਹੁਰਿ ਕਾਮ ਕੀ ਕੇਲ ਮਚਾਵੈ। ਕੋਕ ਸਾਰ ਮਤ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ। ੧੭।{ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੨੫, ੫.੫ ੧੭}Bhaant Bhaant Kay Chaturaasan Kur| Bhajeyo Taahe Turr Daab Bhujan Bhur| Chumban Kurtt Bichshun| Koak Klaa Kobid Sabh Lashan| 14| Poastt Sharaab Afeem Bahu Ghoat Charravatt Bhung| Chaar Pahar Bhaamhe Bhjaa Taaou Na Muchaa Aanung| 15| Bhog Kurtt Sabh Rain Betaavatt| Dal Mal Saij Millin Hvai Jaavatt| Hoatt Devaakar Kee Aanuraaee| Shail Saij Mill Bahurr Beshaaee| 16| Pod Parjunk Aank Bhur Soaou| Bhaang Afeem Peyyatt Mill DOaaou| Bahur Kaam kee Kail Maachaavai Koak Saar Mutt Pargutt Dekhaavai| 17| {Chariter 325, 5.5, 17}

Many stylish positions were taken. Taking him into arms, woman had gratifying sexual intercourse with him. Stylish kisses were given and positions were taken. They were according to the ones listed in Koke Shaster. 14. After taking poppy husk, liqor, opium, and finely grinded cannabis, they had sexual intercourse for 12 hours. However, their sexual desire wasn’t eliminated. 15. They spent all night having sexual intercourse. They made the clothes on the bed wrinkle and disintegrate. When there was light outside in the morning, they would reset the clothing on the bed. 16. They would sleep with each other in arms and would drink opium and cannabis together. They would again start having sex. They performed sex exactly according to the ways written in Koke Shaster. 17.

If the above story was to teach morals, only two lines would have been used to describe what went on the bed. Not 4 stanzas containing a total of 12 lines. You seriously need to rethink what is good literature and what isn’t.

what a pathetic example you have given, how can learning something from killing somebody be compared to learning something from an instructive book?

Book itself isn’t instructive but the stories would have been if they were for instructions. There is no better instructor of morals than Guru Granth Sahib Ji so why do we need writings of Poets Raam, Shyam and Kaal? You still haven’t answered this. Do you also think Guru Granth Sahib is incapable of guiding us religiously and morally?

What kind of sensless inflation in the face of incomprehension is this?

It is your own incomprehension of Charitropakhyan that you think they are to teach us how to live morally.

As I said in the post you can't answer,

the stories would be for sick entertainment and you would be right

IF THE WOMEN WERE PRAISED FOR BEING EVIL

but even you said that women are being slandered because

the text says that Brahma repents creating them,

Once again, above line is a final line of the story giving its moral and education.

SO YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE CONDEMNED

thus the stories are written for instruction and not for entertainment, this is all from the above post, the story of the women and the thieves is not praising her

it is showing that she is evil and crafty, do you know what wiles are?

Story says God is regretting after creating women so which Brahmaa are you on about? Brahm (God) or Brahmaa (devtaa)? Not only are women being slandered but God is also being slandered. Also, chariters do praise evil women at times. Let me give you an example.

ਸਵਤਿ ਸੰਘਾਰੀ ਪਤਿ ਛਲਾ ਮ੍ਰਿਤਹਿ ਲਯੋ ਉਬਾਰਿ। ਭੇਦ ਕਿਸੂ ਪਾਯੋ ਨਹੀ ਧੰਨ ਸੁ ਅਮਰ ਕੁਮਾਰਿ। ੬। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੨੮੨, ੫.੩, ੯੩}

Savat Sanghaaree Ptt Shlaa Mirtheh Layo Oubaar| Bhaid Kisoo Paayo Nahee Dhun Su Amar Kumaar| 6| 1|

Amar Kumaaree killed her husband’s other wife and fooled her husband. This is how she saved her boyfriend. No one was able to know the truth. Amar Kumaree is a great woman. 6. 1.

I sure do know what chariters are and you are pulling on here in this thread. Like I said before, I get spiritual, religious, social and moral wisdom from my Guru. Not from unethical stories written by peots Shyam, Raam and Kaal.

they are lies, illusions, she is using false words to lure the men and then poisoning them, the story shows that such women are capable of great deception

You only know who is trying to deceive you when the person tries to deceive you. If we go by your logic and place a question mark beside every woman, our society will fall which is what is happening now. People don’t trust their wives and wives don’t trust their husbands. These stories just add fuel to that.

THAT IS CAUTIONARY AND NOT ENTERTAINMENT

Typing something in bold doesn’t make it the truth. You have failed to prove how these stories give caution when they use uncivilized language such as landaa, bjaaee, bhug wich landaa, taa ko beeraj apaar, etc. etc. Also, you should be the one proving these stories are Gurmat since you and your crew has admitted these aren’t written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Since these aren’t written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Gurbani furmaan below applies:

ਤੂ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਅਥਾਹੁ ਹੈ ਅਤੁਲੁ ਕਿਉ ਤੁਲੀਐ ॥ ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਜਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਧਿਆਇਦੇ ਜਿਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੀਐ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਬਣੀਐ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਰੀਸੈ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਚੁ ਪਿਚੁ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਝੜਿ ਪੜੀਐ ॥ ਓਨ੍‍ਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਹੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੋ ਝਖਿ ਮਰਦੇ ਕੜੀਐ ॥੯॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਬਿਹ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੩੦੪}

ਢੂਢੇਦੀਏ ਸੁਹਾਗ ਕੂ ਤਉ ਤਨਿ ਕਾਈ ਕੋਰ ॥ ਜਿਨ੍‍ਾ ਨਾਉ ਸੁਹਾਗਣੀ ਤਿਨ੍‍ਾ ਝਾਕ ਨ ਹੋਰ ॥੧੧੪॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਬਿਹ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੧੩੮੪}

you have written that the Holi story is teaching people how to decieve their husbands,

you are so lost in literality that it is appaling

do you know what exegesis means?

it is where you interpret a text on different levels,

i.e the literal, moral, allegorical etc,

you are thinking on the lowest possible level--i.e LITERAL

I sure know what exegesis means. Like I said before, show me something which you think has no moral, I will show you moral from there by extracting it like you guys extract morals from Charitropakhyan.

that is like saying Valmik was promoting adultery because he wrote about

Ravan abducting Sita,

a moral interpretation is much higher, that is what we Pro-Dasam Granth people are trying

to make you understand but you keep going in circles, re-iterating your obtuse positions ad infinitum.

I am sure that Valmik didn’t write sexual scene describing Raavan and Seeta. I am sure he didn’t write:

Raavan Seeta Din Raat Bjaaee

Dono Mileo Bohat Sukh Paaee

Or something like that so please give proper examples next time. And by the way, Sikhs don’t read Ramayan and they have nothing to do with their stories. Gurmat rejects them and says to ignore them.

Humraa Jhagraa Rahaa Na Koaou

Pandit Mulla Shaaday Doaou

Pandit Mulla Jo Likh Deeaa

Shaad Chlay Hum Kashoo Na Leeaa

Please follow Guru Granth Sahib Ji instead of sexual stories written by poets Shyam, Raam and Kaal.

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Chariter 40 further proves that these stories are written for pleasure only. A jatt (farmer) and his wife had problems in their relationships. Jatt’s wife often beat him and used foul language for him. She also performed opposite of what the husband wanted. The days for shraads were near. Shraads occur when people offer food to their dead ancestors by feeding Brahmans. Jatt tells his wife not to feed the Brahmans so she orders him to feed the Brahmans. Jatt gets his wish by speaking the opposite of what he wanted. Then Jatt decided to kill her and get rid of her for good. He told her not to visit her parents but she said she is going to visite her parents. Then, Jatt offered her a buggy but she said no. When they reached the bank of the river, Jatt asked her to get in the canoe. She said she is going to cross by holding onto the tail of an ox. While in the middle of the river, Jatt requested his wife to hold the tail tightly. She did the opposite as usual and let the tail go. She fell in the river and drowned while shouting and slurring abuses at the Jatt.

Oh God.. Why dont you read in between the lines?? Guru Granth Sahib talks about 5 vikaars.. Each of these will harm you if you do not learn to control them..

Now lets go it step by step.. There are 5 vices and the chatrio pakhyan stories are based on these.. Each of these 5 vices can manifest in various ways. Kaam can manifest in normal sex, homosexuality, adultary,rape etc... These are some of the manifestations of kaam. Krodh has other manifestations such as bad language, violent behaviour, etc.

The above charitar does'nt talk about sex, so lets rule out Kaam..

We see that the woman is stubborn and violent which means the charitor must be dealing with Pride and Anger. What happens to a person who is extremely proud of himself???

1. He does'nt see his own shortcomings because he considers himself to be the best.

2. The pride can blind him so much that he loses all sense of rationality

3. The pride makes him lower his guards, so that he does'nt see whats ahead of him

an example of the third is also given in Chaubis avatar. TheMehdi Avatar section says that Mir Mahdi will consider himself to be so strong and powerful, that he does'nt see the small ant than crawls into his ears and kill him...His pride has blinded him so that he lowers his guards and does'nt see whats ahead of him.

Do we agree that excesive pride can blind you so much that you will become your own worst enemy?

if yes, then i'll continue.

I would classify the above charitar as # 2... The women is so blind and full of herself that she loses all sense of rationality. The man simply tricks her into letting go of the oxen, which causes her death.... If she was'nt so full of her self, she would have thought in a rational way and never let go of the oxen...

THe man does'nt kill her by chopping her head of, by beating her to death or by burning her alive.. HE SIMPLY TRICKS HER which is only possible because her excesive pride has veiled her rational thinking!!!

Keep Gurbani in mind and read between the lines!!

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The Holi story is showing how deceptive an evil women can be,

the moral is to recognize such wiles before they are cast and to avoid them

and you are wrong, imaginary stories that couldn't possibly happen in reality

can be INSTRUCTIVE and are not primarily for entertainment, ever heard of fairytales?

Guru Ji said not to chase after fairy tales. Guru Ji said:

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਨਾਹੀ ਰਸਨਾ ਪਰਸ ॥ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਰਸ ॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਬਿਹ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ 274}

They are what societies use to socialize children on a most basic level in understanding good and evil, right and wrong, you are being inflammatory by saying that posters mothers are like those women

IF YOU READ MY ABOVE POST INSTEAD OF IGNORING IT

you would see that I said Charitro Pakhiyan is talking about

LEWD, BAWDY AND EVIL WOMEN AND NOT ALL WOMEN,

When the text is saying even Brahma regrets upon creating women it is a statement in jest and of poetic excess trying to underlie the point that these evil women being spoken of have defamed their sex by their sinful nature. Also Brahma and Shiv are not God so saying so is not anti-Gurmat,

Dasam Granth says Saj Pashtaaneo Saj Kartaaraa. When did Brahmaa become Kartaar? You just shot yourself in the foot there. So since it does say God is regretting, you know it is anti-Gurmat. Don’t don’t run away from your words and Gurmat to say it is okay to say God regrets to give morals. Since we probably have about thousands of board members here, there should have mothers and sisters and daughters. How many of them are like the ones in Charitropakhyan? If the answer is none, then why we need 600 pages of caution on something we don’t run into? Especially when the writings don’t belong to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. What are these stories doing in Hajur Sahib, Damdami Taksal, and Patna? I don’t see them parkash science books or math books besides Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Then why this dasam granth which is written by peots Shyam, Raam and Kaal? I am not the one going around circles, it is you guys. First you guys said these stories are written by Guru Ji which got proven wrong and now instead of trying to get rid of writings of non-Sikhs, you are trying to protect them by making bullshit excuses such as they are for morals, etc. etc. What will reading these stories get you that you don’t get from Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Why read 600 pages of stories to extract morals based on own budhi when Guru Ji gives us morals in Guru Granth Sahib? Please don’t keep ignoring this question. Even Guru Da Sikh has been asking you guys this question for days.

Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish. Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.

This shabad doesn't indicate anywhere to beat up women or not trust them. It just says don't follow their orders over Guru's. Full shabad is below:

ਸਾਰਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਲਾਲਚਿ ਅਟਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੇ ਗਲਾ ॥

Sārā ḏin lālacẖ ati▫ā manmukẖ hore galā.

The self-willed manmukh is occupied with greed all day long, although he may claim otherwise.

ਰਾਤੀ ਊਘੈ ਦਬਿਆ ਨਵੇ ਸੋਤ ਸਭਿ ਢਿਲਾ ॥

Rāṯī ūgẖai ḏabi▫ā nave soṯ sabẖ dẖilā.

At night, he is overcome by fatigue, and all his nine holes are weakened.

ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਦੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੋਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਭਲਾ ॥

Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā.

Over the head of the manmukh is the order of the woman; to her, he ever holds out his promises of goodness.

ਜੋਰਾ ਦਾ ਆਖਿਆ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਸੇ ਅਪਵਿਤ ਅਮੇਧ ਖਲਾ ॥

Jorā ḏā ākẖi▫ā purakẖ kamāvḏe se apviṯ ameḏẖ kẖalā.

Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.

ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥

Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā.

Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਆਖਿਐ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਸੋ ਸਤਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਭਲ ਭਲਾ ॥

Saṯgur kai ākẖi▫ai jo cẖalai so saṯ purakẖ bẖal bẖalā.

One who walks as the True Guru tells him to, is the true man, the best of the best.

ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਭਿ ਖਿਲਾ ॥

Jorā purakẖ sabẖ āp upā▫i▫an har kẖel sabẖ kẖilā.

He Himself created all women and men; the Lord Himself plays every play.

ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਵਣੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਲ ਭਲਾ ॥੨॥

Sabẖ ṯerī baṇaṯ baṇāvaṇī Nānak bẖal bẖalā. ||2||

You created the entire creation; O Nanak, it is the best of the best. ||2||

How is this shabad slandering women then? It says your creation is the best of the best. Not Saj Pashtaneo In Kartaaraa

Message of the shabad is given in the final lines. Please don't understand the message of the shabad.

By the way, Shabad also doesn't mention anything profane like entering penis into vagina or anything like that. Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani is pure and nirmal unlike Dasam Granth which can't make any point without being profane and derogatory.

Other than that, the debate is basically over because you guys accepted that Guru Gobind SIngh Ji isn't the author of these stories meaning these stories have nothing to do with Gurmat or Sikh philosophy.

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2. The pride can blind him so much that he loses all sense of rationality

3. The pride makes him lower his guards, so that he does'nt see whats ahead of him

Mod's edit:The Khalsa Fauji, this is your first warning for going off topic and writing rubbish despite of many pleads from moderator team to stay on the topic and subject in hand.

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You're just going in circles and haven't answered any of Valli Singh's points.

Do you believe poetry by Satto & Balvand, Mardana etc included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji isn't Gurbani?

Mod's edit:The Khalsa Fauji, this is your first warning for going off topic and writing rubbish despite of many pleads from moderator team to stay on the topic and subject in hand.

I already answered valli's questions and explained how his logic is flawed. Why are my posts being deleted now? People can be rude or whatever to me but I can't be? Might as well ban me then. This is why I wasn't willing to debate here but got into it. Hard to digest something when there is makhee sitting on it. Satta and Balvand are part of Guru Granth Sahib Ji along with Bhagats and bhatts. Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Guru. When was Dasam Granth given Gurgadddi? Third party book, Dasam Granth, has nothing to do with Guru Granth Sahib Ji. GUru Granth Sahib Ji is complete Guru and doesn't have any shortcomings so there is no need for third party books such as Bachitter Natak Granth to get education or gyan or morals. If a person doesn't get morals from his Guru, there is no chance he / she gets morals from a third party book.

Also, going around circles, firs you guys said it is work of Guru Ji. Now you are sayig it is work of Hindu Rishi Munis. Either keep Guru Granth Sahib Ji and have full faith or take Dasam Granth and make a new religion called Mahakaalism. You gusy haven't answered one question of the following:

1) Isn't Guru Granth Sahib Ji enogh to give morals and social guidance?

2) Is there another granth that has better morals than Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

3) Isn't Guru Granth Sahib Ji complete Guru?

4) If GUru Granth Sahib Ji is complete Guru, why do we need writings from third party books?

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