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Charitro Pakhyan - Sri Dasam Granth Sahib


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The Khalsa Fauji,

Amardeep was not rude to you, you quoted his post but your response were totally off-topic and were intimidated in nature. I will deal with other off-topics and other attacks against you by members in fact we are going through all the post filtering all personal attacks. If you wish not to be under moderation for quality control you must re-read your post twice before posting, you must stay focused. It's very hard to be banned from this forum, unless you obviously make same stupid mistake you made few years ago then thats a different story.

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You gusy haven't answered one question of the following:

1) Isn't Guru Granth Sahib Ji enogh to give morals and social guidance?

2) Is there another granth that has better morals than Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

3) Isn't Guru Granth Sahib Ji complete Guru?

4) If GUru Granth Sahib Ji is complete Guru, why do we need writings from third party books?

People have already answered these. SGGS ji is complete Guru, but tell me where are punj kakaars written in SGGS? Where is amrit sanchaar and all other rahits written in SGGS? This proves that key, central Sikh teachings are contained within other granths as well. So a knee jerk reaction rejecting these granths constitutes rejecting a very important part of Sikh dharm.

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I must say guru da sikh and Khalsa Fauj makes some excelent points in how we should'n belive these degrading remarks about women could be penned by the Gurus....

Here are some other charitars and interesting quotes i found on how men should be aware of womens power:

I think the moral of the following charitar is that men should be aware of their wives, as they tend to turn them against their parents.

The enchantress wife with her charms made the husband dote on her.

He forgot the parents who had given him birth and had got him married.

Having made vows of offerings and considerd many good and bad omens and auspicious combinations, his marriage had been arranged by them.

Seeing at the meetings of the son and the daughter-in-law, the parents had felt over­joyed

The bride then started continuously advising the husband to desert his parents instigating that they had been tyrants.

Forgetting the benefactions of parents, the son alongwith his wife got separated from them

Now the way of the world has become grossly immoral.

the above "charitar" says women are to be blamed for the worlds immorality.

here is another interesting quote:

Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.

Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.

What kind of morals are these, condemning women?? we as sikhs should discard and reject such teachings from the Dasam Granth.. ooh wait.. its not from the Dasam Granth... its Bhai Gurdass vaar and Guru Granth Sahib

Vaar 37 Pauri 12 and Ang 304.

Do you also rejects these pauris and shabads because they dont fit in with your own views and thoughts??

That was genious, you had me going for a minute thinking you had gone over to the dark side. I didnt waste time like Kam reading the whole thing but that post was worth a read.

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The Khalsa Fauji,

You gusy haven't answered one question of the following:

1) Isn't Guru Granth Sahib Ji enogh to give morals and social guidance?

2) Is there another granth that has better morals than Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

3) Isn't Guru Granth Sahib Ji complete Guru?

4) If GUru Granth Sahib Ji is complete Guru, why do we need writings from third party books?

This is already been answered. In fact they were highlighted in bold for you in case you missed.

Here is quote in case you missed;

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

Please refute above possibility cannot be possible.

And from another thread:

However, all rahit maryada, in its entirety, is not explained in SGGS. Examples include the punj kakkar and the Amrit Sanchaar maryaada. So, SGGS is spiritually complete, but doesn't tell us everything about Sikh life. This is why we have Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars, which the Guru himself designated as the keys to understanding SGGS ji, this is why we have Dasam Bani.
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The problem is that khalsa fauj keeps pointing towards Guru Granth Sahib saying "If we can not find anything similiar in Guru Granth Sahib, then we have to reject whatever is written in Dasam Granth".. However that logic is failed.. Using that argument, we could say Guru Har Gobind's resistance was anti-gurmat since you can't find a single line in Gurbani that says you should fight back your enemy.. on the contrary we find shabds simliar to the christian doctrine of turning the other cheek:

Fareed, do not turn around and strike those who strike you with their fists.

Kiss their feet, and return to your own home. ||7||

The issue of raising the sword as a last resort is not found anywhere in Guru Granth Sahib..

So will you point your finger towards Guru Hargobind Maharaj because his actions were "against the hukams of Guru Granth Sahib??" ? ???

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People have already answered these. SGGS ji is complete Guru, but tell me where are punj kakaars written in SGGS? Where is amrit sanchaar and all other rahits written in SGGS? This proves that key, central Sikh teachings are contained within other granths as well. So a knee jerk reaction rejecting these granths constitutes rejecting a very important part of Sikh dharm.

Of course Guru Granth Sahib Ji mentions not to do bajjar kurehits and promotes 5 kakkars.

Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us not to look at other women which tells us about (kashera).

Jay Jeevay Path Lathee Jaaye (kirpaan)

Guru ka Sikh Vikaar Tay Haatay (Kara)

Saabat Soorat Dastaar Siraa (Kesh)

If you have kesh, you also need kangaa to keep them clean.

Show me where Dasam Granth says to wear 5 kakars or refrain from 4 bajjar kurehits.

Dasam Granth would have done this if it was a Sikh Scripture but it isn't.

Fareed, do not turn around and strike those who strike you with their fists.

Kiss their feet, and return to your own home. ||7||

That quote is translated wrong. Bhagat Ji is talking abot vikaars in that shabad. Read the whol shabad.

Guru Ji gave us knowledge on how to live in society and act. Guru Ji's mission wasn't to create scientists or biologists or mathematicians. Guru Ji put whole bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji and thanked God.

Tera Keetaa Jaato Nahee Mainu Joag Kee Toaee

That is why 10th Nanak added bani of 9th Nanak Inside 1 Oankar and Mundavni.

There is no other bani. If there was, it would hav been in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Bhai Gurdas Vaars are a historical source and historical granth. Same goes for Panth Parkash, Sooraj Parkash, etc. We aren't supposed to be reading contents from these granths when preparing Amrit or doing nitnaim. Nitnaim is also clearly laid out in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. If someone thinkgs he / she is smarter than 10th Nanak and modify nitnaim, that is that person's issue.

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Of course Guru Granth Sahib Ji mentions not to do bajjar kurehits and promotes 5 kakkars.

Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us not to look at other women which tells us about (kashera).

Jay Jeevay Path Lathee Jaaye (kirpaan)

Guru ka Sikh Vikaar Tay Haatay (Kara)

Saabat Soorat Dastaar Siraa (Kesh)

If you have kesh, you also need kangaa to keep them clean.

You can not do it like that.. you already know the kakaars, so now you just try and find some shabads that sounds like they are talking about the kakars.

if you gave Guru Granth Sahib to a non-sikh who knew nothing of sikhism and asked him to read it and list all the important things he could find he would NEVER mention anything about kesh, kanga keshara kirpaan and kara..

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Of course Guru Granth Sahib Ji mentions not to do bajjar kurehits and promotes 5 kakkars.

Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us not to look at other women which tells us about (kashera).

Jay Jeevay Path Lathee Jaaye (kirpaan)

Guru ka Sikh Vikaar Tay Haatay (Kara)

Saabat Soorat Dastaar Siraa (Kesh)

If you have kesh, you also need kangaa to keep them clean.

The khalsa fauji,

Let me ask you, kakars parallelism you drawn from those gurbani tuks except sabat soorat dastar sira. Is that your understanding of the shabad or is it from prof sahib singh teeka?

How does prof sahib singh teeka translates those above tuk except sabat soorat dastar siraa?

Also you are advising amardeep veer to read full tuk of gurbani, but have you done the same by posting the above tuks?

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You can not do it like that.. you already know the kakaars, so now you just try and find some shabads that sounds like they are talking about the kakars.

if you gave Guru Granth Sahib to a non-sikh who knew nothing of sikhism and asked him to read it and list all the important things he could find he would NEVER mention anything about kesh, kanga keshara kirpaan and kara..

I said it before that Prof. Sahib Singh's teeka isn't perfect. He even said it himself. Other than that, those aren't the only shabads which can backup 5 kakkars. Also, there is no mention of 5 kakkars in dasam granth. They are mentioned in texts outside of Dasam Granth though.

Also, I feel that debating here is too time consuming. I haven't been able to get much done over the last few days other than post here. Like I said at the start, holding a live debate in public would be the best solution to solve this issue. Internet posts are just internet posts. Also, before trying to promote Dasam Granth, you guys need to decide about Poets SHyam, Raam and Kaal. It is very confusing when one says they are pen names of Guru Ji and other person says they are poets and someone else says they are rishi munis. Please make a separate thread and decide amongst yourselves on who these poet characters are. Then it would be much easier to hold debate.

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Saabat Soorat Dastaar Siraa (Kesh)

What about shabad saying that growing hair or shaving is not important?

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥

You are more interested in doing and winning debates than finding the truth. Debates just satisfy your ego, you never get anywhere. There is no use continuing when ਵੀਚਾਰ turns into ਵਾਦ.

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What about shabad saying that growing hair or shaving is not important?

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥

ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥

You are more interested in doing and winning debates than finding the truth. Debates just satisfy your ego, you never get anywhere. There is no use continuing when ਵੀਚਾਰ turns into ਵਾਦ.

The sloak you posted is sloak 25 but I am posting sloak 101 below:

ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਮੂੰਡਿਆ ਨਹੀ ਕੇਸ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ ਕਾਂਇ ॥ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮੂੰਡਾ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਅਜਾਂਇ ॥ ੧੦੧॥

What is the use of shaving hair when the mind hasn't been shaved? Whatever is done is done by mind. Why waste time shaving hair uselessly?

Let me translate above quot for you.

ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥

Kabeer, have love for the One Lord. Your other thoughts of duality will be removed.

What is the other thoughts of duality that will be removed?

ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥

Duality is have long hair or shave them off totally.

When a person connets with God, the Creator of all, person forgets about other thoughts and starts living in hukam. Whent he person lives in hukam, the thought of cutting hair goes away meaning the doubt to keep hair long or shave head goes away.

Like I said before, please learn proper aarths of Gurbani because Gurbani isn't like Dasam Granth where it says something one place and another at other place.

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ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਮੂੰਡਿਆ ਨਹੀ ਕੇਸ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ ਕਾਂਇ ॥ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮੂੰਡਾ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਅਜਾਂਇ ॥ ੧੦੧॥

What is the use of shaving hair when the mind hasn't been shaved? Whatever is done is done by mind. Why waste time shaving hair uselessly?

Your reasoning is pathetic. How did you deduce that this tuk is a reason for long kesh? Long kesh are for saving time? LOL

So that is why you grew hair? No time to go to barber. Our 'Khalsa Fauj' is growing hair to save time and few bucks.

Anyway shabad here is another condemnation for useless rituals. This tuk says shave your hair only if your mind understand this custom and reason behind it.

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//Question - Also, before trying to promote Dasam Granth, you guys need to decide about Poets SHyam, Raam and Kaal. It is very confusing when one says they are pen names of Guru Ji and other person says they are poets and someone else says they are rishi munis.//

This has been answered, if Sahib Singh States that the Bhatts can do this in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji then Guru Sahib can also follow this rule in Dasam Granth. The missionaries also agree that the Bhatts used different names to pen their shabads.

Stop asking the same question again and again. Maybe then you will not need to waste your time posting lots on threads that have already been answered

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//Question - Also, before trying to promote Dasam Granth, you guys need to decide about Poets SHyam, Raam and Kaal. It is very confusing when one says they are pen names of Guru Ji and other person says they are poets and someone else says they are rishi munis.//

This has been answered, if Sahib Singh States that the Bhatts can do this in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji then Guru Sahib can also follow this rule in Dasam Granth. The missionaries also agree that the Bhatts used different names to pen their shabads.

Stop asking the same question again and again. Maybe then you will not need to waste your time posting lots on threads that have already been answered

Where do missionaries come from? I am not a Sikh of Prof. Sahib Singh. Like I said before, Bhatt teekaa isn't perfect. Also, if 9 joats of Nanak didn't use different names, 10th doesn't either. Clear as Sheeshaa.

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So Khalsa Fauj in your opinion is Jaap Sahib bani or not! As you do not see the name of Nanak in it at all? If it is not the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who wriote it then, and i would like a name not some random group you hate!

Poet Shyam. Watch the video labelled interview on Dasam Granth.

http://www.thesikhaffairs.org/video.html

Final post in this thread

This is the final post here. Please bring proper debater to a live debate. No point wasting time online with those who have a specific agenda and won't listen until their baba says so.

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The Khalsa Fauji,

It seems like you are fatigued, need a break from all this discussion ? Understandable. Just let us know whenever you are ready. However, i just wanted to remind, it was your friend- Guru Da Sikh who came on this forum start challenging core beliefs of gurmat sidhant- Sri Dasam Granth sahib, Bhai Gurdas Ji Varan and you came along with this joined the party after clarifying that you were not Guru Da Sikh to Mithar. All of this seems some what fishy, seemed like well planned orchestrated mission to come on the forum start engaging in guerrilla debate.

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all!

The true Guru's words originate from the highly conscious state of existence.

To understand these words, one needs to grow spiritually with True Naam Simran.

Strange some are challenging Guru's words without being aware of their ignorance.

Many others are defending Guru's words without tasting growth of consciousness.

Balbir Singh

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  • 3 weeks later...

Singh 2 aka Inder Singh,

Guru Fateh.

Let me give you the benefit of the doubt for the sake of discussion and say that I believe what you are saying is right for yourself as you have the total conviction that all DG was written by Dasam Pita.

As you have lied many times before and was caught, I would like you to be truthful for the first time at this tender age of 82 for the sake of your own family.

As you know very well that Charitropakhayan explains about homosexuality, lesbianism, anal sex and infidelity.

As you are also a great Scholar on Dasam Granth, common sense would dictate that you must have shared your knowledge of Charitropakhayan in details with your family as you call it Gurmat vichaar - your words, not mine about DG.

So, my questions are the following:

1. Did you explain everything about Charitropakhayan with your wife, with your daughters, daughters in law your grand daughters and all the other ladies mod's edit?

2. How did you approach the matter?

3. Did you have props for this Gurmat Vichaar?

4. What kind of reactions did they have especially the teen age girls?

What I would like to know is that you share your modus operandi with us so all those who believe in what you believe in and propagate with great pride can also take props from you and carry on with your way of thinking and name it as Gurmat Vichaar.

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwant singh,

I just ended up editing your post, there are two questions which were totally irrelevant to this topic and were personally directed to singh2. There is no room for personal tu tu mein in this thread, use ghup shup section of this forum or take it over the pm. You must follow guidelines of this discussion. If you keep ruin each and every thread with personal tu tu mein attacks, we have no choice but to put you under moderation. I have deleted your post which you made at your first days on sikhawareness where you mock singh2 by calling him- hindu dhotiwala. This kind of rubbish may be tolerated on other forums but definitely not this one. If you feel singh2 is getting personal with you, please use report function to notify moderators instead of getting into vicious cycle of retaliating. You have put fwd some questions, valli singh have already answer some of them, read the full thread and rest will be answered by other members.

Lets discuss this discuss with mutual respect. Before you discuss any charitars, you must make an effort to post the full charitar here, charitars are short anyway, post the full charitar and then you can discuss what you find questionable, and members of this forum can discuss moral of each charitar with you.

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Tejwant Singh,

I know you asked above questions to singh2.

Based on your questions i need to ask you questions which will you get answers within:

1. Abroad in schools, sex organ/reproduction education to the youths has became mandatory.. not only that many subject discuss some elements of sex organ/reproduction in context of science/biology/awareness. Only perverse mindset person will consider it taboo. On a same token, if this could be acceptable by you? why cannot charitars? Charitars are used remind people to upheld dharam/morals by giving moral story of each charitar of people falling into many type of vices.

Anti Charitar party have to prove through charitars itself charitars are for entertainment to hold any credibility in the discussion. Many members on this thread have already proven by giving examples from charitars - morals of each charitar are not entertaining but cautionary

2. Anti charitars party seem to have problem, their one of problem being guru maharaj never would have included treh charitar composition in sri dasam granth because it mentions men and female sex organs or even sexual intercourse. I asked to those who have doubts, do you have issues with family doctor examine both sex organs both male and female in physical check up? do you have issues with family doctor when he/she gives procedural steps how to conceive a child quickly for female. Only perverted mindset will have problem with this because doctor when gives medicine/advise to patients is not perverted or have any perverted intentions. Going fwd, keeping in context on a same token, parallelism can be drawn from below examples-

- just like doctor does not feel shame or is not perverted when giving advise or medicine just like that sri guru gobind singh ji as a doctor have included remedies from ancient literature's with moral story of each charitar so kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar of people living in socio-religious-economic environment can be understood and cured.

- just like how medical student does not feel amusement or erection when reading books on specific sex organs, reproduction methods, specific details on ejaculation of both male and female during intercourse to understand beraaj and rakhth infusion..just like that, student in sikhs studies who reads charitopakhyan with open mind (unless perverted off course) does not feel amusement or erection when reading charitars because every charitar is for education as its cautionary because it have moral story behind it and every charitar is put into its context.

over and out ..!

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Tejwant Singh,

I know you asked above questions to singh2.

Based on your questions i need to ask you questions which will you get answers within:

1. Abroad in schools, sex organ/reproduction education to the youths has became mandatory.. not only that many subject discuss some elements of sex organ/reproduction in context of science/biology/awareness. Only perverse mindset person will consider it taboo. On a same token, if this could be acceptable by you? why cannot charitars? Charitars are used remind people to upheld dharam/morals by giving moral story of each charitar of people falling into many type of vices.

Anti Charitar party have to prove through charitars itself charitars are for entertainment to hold any credibility in the discussion. Many members on this thread have already proven by giving examples from charitars - morals of each charitar are not entertaining but cautionary

2. Anti charitars party seem to have problem, their one of problem being guru maharaj never would have included treh charitar composition in sri dasam granth because it mentions men and female sex organs or even sexual intercourse. I asked to those who have doubts, do you have issues with family doctor examine both sex organs both male and female in physical check up? do you have issues with family doctor when he/she gives procedural steps how to conceive a child quickly for female. Only perverted mindset will have problem with this because doctor when gives medicine/advise to patients is not perverted or have any perverted intentions. Going fwd, keeping in context on a same token, parallelism can be drawn from below examples-

- just like doctor does not feel shame or is not perverted when giving advise or medicine just like that sri guru gobind singh ji as a doctor have included remedies from ancient literature's with moral story of each charitar so kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar of people living in socio-religious-economic environment can be understood and cured.

- just like how medical student does not feel amusement or erection when reading books on specific sex organs, reproduction methods, specific details on ejaculation of both male and female during intercourse to understand beraaj and rakhth infusion..just like that, student in sikhs studies who reads charitopakhyan with open mind (unless perverted off course) does not feel amusement or erection when reading charitars because every charitar is for education as its cautionary because it have moral story behind it and every charitar is put into its context.

over and out ..!

N30 Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are confusing biology which is also mentioned in SGGS with pornographic erotoism which is mentioned in Dasam Granth. Let us be objective and not try to mix apples and oranges because of our subjective beliefs based on the shameless erotic way it is written in Dasam Granth and blindly accept that it is written by our Dasam Pita. So for you the perverted way Charitars are written are part of a biology or sex education class in schools? Get real, mate.

This shows undermining, disrespect of Dasam Pita on our part and it also shows how arrogant we are by determining that our 10th Guru who sacrificed all his family, created Khalsa Panth and gave us SGGS as our ONLY GURU will write this kind of rubbish and name it HIS Granth?

Just ponder over it a bit. Sikhi is not about blind faith. Blind faith makes people blind.

Tejwant Singh

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Tejwant Singh,

you wrote:

So for you the perverted way Charitars are written are part of a biology or sex education class in schools?"

I draw an interesting parallelism but did not say charitars are part of biology but they are solution to wider sexualized society. I drew parallelism of two studies on sexuality, once is given in form of tales to provide solution to understand sexualized society and rise from it by reading morals of the story and other one is given in form of scientific experiment to discover body science better. The fact is those who oppose charitopakhyan have no problem accepting studies on sexuality done by scientist yet have problem with tales on sexuality and each tale ending up moral story behind it. In both studies, they both provide remedies/discoveries/understanding of human sexual nature, if one provides cure/advise on physical level- body science and other provides it on emotional level. so again to put everything in context:

- just like doctor does not feel shame or is not perverted when giving advise or medicine just like that sri guru gobind singh ji as a doctor have included remedies from ancient literature's with moral story of each charitar so kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar of people living in socio-religious-economic environment can be understood and cured.

- just like how medical student does not feel amusement or erection when reading books on specific sex organs, reproduction methods, specific details on ejaculation of both male and female during intercourse to understand beraaj and rakhth infusion..just like that, student in sikhs studies who reads charitopakhyan with open mind (unless perverted off course) does not feel amusement or erection when reading charitars because every charitar is for education as its cautionary because it have moral story behind it and every charitar is put into its context.

As i posted this in response to khalsa fauji post, I post this infront of you too:

Most of us here know that some parts of treh charitar is from panch tantar and other compositions written by rishi munis, so save you energy to convince us its not written by sri guru gobind singh ji. We already know that because it belongs to Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji.

i m posing same question to you, its very important without proper discussion on this point we cannot go fwd in details:

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj translating/interpreting or including previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? We already have proper chronology and puratan birs of sri dasam granth sahib to prove that. Historically speaking this possibility clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to doubts, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different category/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

Please refute above possibility cannot be possible.

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