Why Can't People Debate In A Rational Manner Here?

[shaheediyan]

"Actually it is a good comparison, because he too was labelled a thug, and disowned by many Sikhs at the time. He made changes such as "Fateh Darshan".....yet rather than excommunicate him people sought compromise."

Veer Ji,

The key difference as to why Singhs sought compromise with Bandai Khalsa was because of the blackhole they created in the Mughals empire, as well as the immense shaheediyan they gave.

What has Afghana done for the Panth?

[Matheen]

Where is your proof they are paid agents of Brahmins?

For your information I have read Dasam Granth.

Read and understood Sri Dasam Granth in its original language, or read translations? Which parts do you feel aren't Guru Sahib's writings? Did you have as Ustaad?

The strongest rejection of Hinduism (and Islam, for that matter), in straight forward language, is in Sri Dasam Granth. While brave deeds and good acts done by the avtars, devte etc are rightfully acknowledged, their worship is totally rejected. It makes sense that the RSS and other right wing Hindu groups would secretly support "Singh Sabha Canada" and Kala Afghana, but that is pointless to debate without solid proof.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Read and understood Sri Dasam Granth in its original language, or read translations? Which parts do you feel aren't Guru Sahib's writings? Did you have as Ustaad?

The strongest rejection of Hinduism (and Islam, for that matter), in straight forward language, is in Sri Dasam Granth. While brave deeds and good acts done by the avtars, devte etc are rightfully acknowledged, their worship is totally rejected. It makes sense that the RSS and other right wing Hindu groups would secretly support "Singh Sabha Canada" and Kala Afghana, but that is pointless to debate without solid proof.

Are you sure about the above claims because it seems you have not read or understood Dasam Granth. You might be asking who my ustaad is. My ustaad is Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I don't follow physical bodies. Why would Hindus and RSS support anti-DG crew? Because they oppose devi devtas? I am sure you aren't capable of debating Dasam Granth because if you start you will be running to Admin for ban in a hurry. If someone wishes to debate Dasam Granth, we can hold program in Toronto area to debate. Internet debates are useless and take too long. It would be best to have debate in public where video is recorded.

[Matheen]

Khalsa Fauj ji, that was all directed to Randip Singh Ji.

Go ahead, let's hear your argument, but keep it short, concise and to the point. You don't know me and I don't know you, so don't make it personal.

Let's keep all the debate in one thread though - use the "? to Guru Da Sikh" thread please.

Thanks.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Khalsa Fauj ji, that was all directed to Randip Singh Ji.

Go ahead, let's hear your argument, but keep it short, concise and to the point. You don't know me and I don't know you, so don't make it personal.

Let's keep all the debate in one thread though - use the "? to Guru Da Sikh" thread please.

Thanks.

I don't want to get into debate here because it would take too long without any solution but I will see in future if I get some time. Guru Da Sikh wanted to indulge in debate online. Indulging in debate online wastes too much time. I already spent half day yes. trying to reply to threads. I could have done a lot of important work in that time so I try to limit debates online.

[Matheen]

I Indulging in debate online wastes too much time.....

Well, we agree on that. Causing arguments and divisions is a waste of time, whether on-line or elsewhere. Please tell singhsabhacanada this same thing.

[Guest]

. If someone wishes to debate Dasam Granth, we can hold program in Toronto area to debate. Internet debates are useless and take too long. It would be best to have debate in public where video is recorded.

I have a katha vaichak who is more than happy to discuss sri dasam granth sahib with you guys, he has refuted claims by missionaries/bhausaria against dasam granth sahib before in montreal and calgary. Right now he drives a truck which is bit unfortunate as he does not wish to pursue katha vaichak career anymore in the Gurdwara. Once we get sufficient funding for him here which is close to $3500 for 2 months temporary to support him, he will able to ready for full fledged debate on sri dasam granth sahib. Until then be patient unless off course your side can provide him half funding in "act of desperation for debate" do let us know.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

I have a katha vaichak who is more than happy to discuss sri dasam granth sahib with you guys, he has refuted claims by missionaries/bhausaria against dasam granth sahib before in montreal and calgary. Right now he drives a truck which is bit unfortunate as he does not wish to pursue katha vaichak career anymore in the Gurdwara. Once we get sufficient funding for him here which is close to $3500 for 2 months temporary to support him, he will able to ready for full fledged debate on sri dasam granth sahib. Until then be patient unless off course your side can provide him half funding in "act of desperation for debate" do let us know.

I replied in the other thread about funding so there is no rush.

[randip singh]

"Actually it is a good comparison, because he too was labelled a thug, and disowned by many Sikhs at the time. He made changes such as "Fateh Darshan".....yet rather than excommunicate him people sought compromise."

Veer Ji,

The key difference as to why Singhs sought compromise with Bandai Khalsa was because of the blackhole they created in the Mughals empire, as well as the immense shaheediyan they gave.

What has Afghana done for the Panth?

Look, I have not read what Afghana has written. Every forum I ask what has he actually written I come across statements like I have here,but not what he actually did.

Someone showed me a conviction for sexual assault, and I asked why he wasn't locked up and just fined....I got a load of abuse. It seemed contrived.

The point I am making is Bandha was controversial, Afghana is controversial, so why don't people talk to each other rather than all this BS excommunication business and character assassination.

As for what Afghana's done....like I said I really don't know.

[randip singh]

Read and understood Sri Dasam Granth in its original language, or read translations? Which parts do you feel aren't Guru Sahib's writings? Did you have as Ustaad?

I have read an English version, written alongside with Braj (which I find a little difficult). Some parts are very hard to follow.

I feel that Zafarnama is written by Guruji, and Chandi di Vaar possibly. Other section possibly by court poets. I haven't got my copy at hand, so lets start another topic for this for in depth analysis.

The strongest rejection of Hinduism (and Islam, for that matter), in straight forward language, is in Sri Dasam Granth. While brave deeds and good acts done by the avtars, devte etc are rightfully acknowledged, their worship is totally rejected.

I would go further....these avtars, devta's etc all become victims of "Kaal"...i.e. time, and therefore they are not immortal. Therefore they are not acknowledges as such, but this is an epic discussion in itself.

It makes sense that the RSS and other right wing Hindu groups would secretly support "Singh Sabha Canada" and Kala Afghana, but that is pointless to debate without solid proof.

No it wouldn't, only if the Afghanists said you should worship these deities, but they reject this don't they.

[Matheen]

I have read an English version, written alongside with Braj (which I find a little difficult). Some parts are very hard to follow.

I feel that Zafarnama is written by Guruji, and Chandi di Vaar possibly. Other section possibly by court poets. I haven't got my copy at hand, so lets start another topic for this for in depth analysis.

No it wouldn't, only if the Afghanists said you should worship these deities, but they reject this don't they.

In that case, I understand why you feel the way you do - I haven't come across a single translation that is true to the original, most are shockingly bad. There are people who have studied all the languages used and have been taught the same meanings that have been passed down since the time of Bhai Mani Singh Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji - that is what our traditional Taksals do, and why we need them.

Even from tranlations though, you can't claim that Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat are not Guru ji's uchaaran?

You have a point re: RSS funding singhsabhacanada, however looking at the bigger picture - Sri Dasam Granth uses very strong words to reject the foundation of their beliefs, no other dharmic granth does this with such unambiguity. I'm sure they are also happy at how the Kala Afgahnists and co have removed any essence of spirituality and denounced the need for 'Naam Japna' from their version of Sikhi. Without Simran, the inner thirst isn't quenched, and people look elsewhere - a good result as far as our enemies are concerned.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Ghagga has corrected his mistakes in the 2nd edition of his book. It doesn't say Naam Japnaa Gorakh Dhanda anymore. It says: Naam Kivay Japeeaye meaning how should we do naam japnaa. He also corrected the Guru Nanak eating halal meat at Mecca thing. It takes a man to admit fault and he did that. Not only did he admit mistake, he corrected his mistakes. How many saadh baba followers are willing to admit and correct mistakes? There should be debates on books written by sants and bhais so we can make improvements in them too.

As for kala afgana, I don't know enough about him to comment on him. I have heard several things pro and anti about him. As for him trying to lure that woman, maybe he was trying to see if education of tria chariters really works or not. Charitropakhyan says even God is regretting after creating woman and they are not understandable so who knows? Maybe she pulled a chariter on him and got him framed like he says. Unfortunately, we don't have poets raam or shyam or kaal to write her chariter. We shouldn't trust women anyways because anyone who trusts a woman dies in 7 days. Let me give quotes below:

ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨਹਿ ਜਾਨਾ। ਬਿਧਨਾ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਨਾ। ਸਿਵ ਘਰ ਤਜਿ ਕਾਨਨਹਿ ਸਿਧਾਯੋ। ਤਊ ਤਰੁਨਿ ਕੋ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਯੋ। ੧੬। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੨੬੩, ੫.੩, ੫}

Treyaa Chariter Kinhoo Nahe Jaanaa| Bidhnaa Siraj Bahur Pashutaanaa| Shiv Ghar Tuj Kaan-nahe Sedhaayo| Tauou Tarun Ko Aant Na Paayo| 16|No one has been able to understand the ways of women. Even God is regretting after creating them. Shiv left home for forest but wasn’t able to understand women. 16.

ਇਨ ਇਸਤ੍ਰਿਨ ਕੇ ਚਰਿਤ ਅਪਾਰਾ। ਸਜਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਨ੍‍ਯੋ ਇਨ ਕਰਤਾਰਾ। ੨੫। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੩੨੨, ੫.੫, ੯}

In Istreean Kay Chariter Apaaraa| Suj Pashtaaneyo In Kartaaraa| 25| 1|The games of these women are beyond understanding. Even God is regretting after creating them. 25. 1.

ਹੋ ਤ੍ਰਿਯ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਜਗਤ ਜਾਨਤ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਈ। ੨੯। ੧। {ਚਰਿਤਰ ੨੪੪, ੫.੧, ੧੧੩}

Ho Treyh Chariter Kee Baat Jagat Jaanat Nahe Koaee| 29| 1| {Chariter 244, 5.1, 113}

There is not a single person in the world who can understand the ploys of women. 29. 1.

How did the court understand her chariter and make judgement? This is weird isn't it?

[Guest]

The Khalsa Fauj,

didn't i just requested all the treh charitar post whether anti or for should be made on to the special thread under formal debate section on the other thread? was i speaking gibberish before?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

The Khalsa Fauj,

didn't i just requested all the treh charitar post whether anti or for should be made on to the special thread under formal debate section on the other thread? was i speaking gibberish before?

Oh no no no. This isn't to discuss what is valid and what isn't. This was a response about kala afgana court case. I am not debating those quotes in the post above. Sorry if you misunderstood. Would you like me to remove those quotes from above post?

[singh2]

Ghagga has corrected his mistakes in the 2nd edition of his book. It doesn't say Naam Japnaa Gorakh Dhanda anymore. It says: Naam Kivay Japeeaye meaning how should we do naam japnaa. He also corrected the Guru Nanak eating halal meat at Mecca thing. It takes a man to admit fault and he did that. Not only did he admit mistake, he corrected his mistakes.

It is ghagha who instigated Finland sangat to change ardas. It is ghagha who changed dohra of ardas and substituted panth for Guru Granth. Thus he and his henchmen have disowned SGGS ji as their Guru.

It is ghagha who removed chali muktas from ardas as these missioanries say that there were no chali muktas.

Do we need more proof that these traitors are funded by anti sikh agencies. So It is not only Dasam Granth but their target is whole sikh panth.

[Guest]

Oh no no no. This isn't to discuss what is valid and what isn't. This was a response about kala afgana court case. I am not debating those quotes in the post above. Sorry if you misunderstood. Would you like me to remove those quotes from above post?

no its ok, sorry my bad i misunderstood.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

It is ghagha who instigated Finland sangat to change ardas. It is ghagha who changed dohra of ardas and substituted panth for Guru Granth. Thus he and his henchmen have disowned SGGS ji as their Guru.

It is ghagha who removed chali muktas from ardas as these missioanries say that there were no chali muktas.

Do we need more proof that these traitors are funded by anti sikh agencies. So It is not only Dasam Granth but their target is whole sikh panth.

Above statements are far from truth. The dohra that Finland sangat implemented is the oldest one which says Panth Khalsa Janeo Pargat Gura Kee Deh. What is wrong with that? It still says Aageaa Bhaee Akaal Kee Tabe Chalaeo Panth. Do you even know the Dohra or you are just taking your time to lash at Ghagga for something you don't know about? What is wrong with saying that 40 Sikhs didn't leave Guru Gobind Singh Ji? What is more better for panth? Sikhs turning back to Guru and then coming back or Sikhs never turning back to Guru? You sure don't know about the dohra of Bhai Prehlad Singh. Please read Prehlad Singh Rehatnama.

Ageya Bhaee Akaal Kee Tabe Chalaeo Panth

Sabh SIkhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Maneo Granth

Panth Khalsa Janeo Pargat Gura Kee Deh

Jo Prab Ko Milbo Chai Khoj Inhe Me Leh

How is that not accepting Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru?

[singh2]

Above statements are far from truth. The dohra that Finland sangat implemented is the oldest one which says Panth Khalsa Janeo Pargat Gura Kee Deh. What is wrong with that? It still says Aageaa Bhaee Akaal Kee Tabe Chalaeo Panth. Do you even know the Dohra or you are just taking your time to lash at Ghagga for something you don't know about? What is wrong with saying that 40 Sikhs didn't leave Guru Gobind Singh Ji? What is more better for panth? Sikhs turning back to Guru and then coming back or Sikhs never turning back to Guru? You sure don't know about the dohra of Bhai Prehlad Singh. Please read Prehlad Singh Rehatnama.

Instead of harping on in defence of so called Ghagha please give us reference of the Dohra as you say.

They have no authority to change anything. It is akal takhat who has authority to make changes.

By saying that there were no chali muktas they are trying to alter sikh history. Is there any justification for that?

By the way how this guy became professor? Who gave him this title?

[Guru da Sikh]

Instead of harping on in defence of so called Ghagha please give us reference of the Dohra as you say.

They have no authority to change anything. It is akal takhat who has authority to make changes.

(You Pro Dasam Granth people have to stop being hypocritical about Akal Takhat and its authority.

You try to hide behind it when it works for you while at all other times it is nothing more than ink on paper. You boys support and speak up for people & institutions that violate Rehat Meryada approved by the same Akal Takhat (Installation of Dasam Granth beside Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji’s Parkash), Taksal having their own separate Meryada etc. And now you are here to give us lecture about Rehat Meryada !

Would you come out and make a clear statement, whether you are FOR or AGAINST the Akal Takhat Rehat Meryada approved by SGPC and implemented by Akal Takhat.)

By saying that there were no chali muktas they are trying to alter sikh history. Is there any justification for that?

By the way how this guy became professor? Who gave him this title?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Instead of harping on in defence of so called Ghagha please give us reference of the Dohra as you say.

They have no authority to change anything. It is akal takhat who has authority to make changes.

By saying that there were no chali muktas they are trying to alter sikh history. Is there any justification for that?

By the way how this guy became professor? Who gave him this title?

Please think clearly instead of running based on emotions. They didn't say 40 Sikhs didn't get shaheed at Mukatsar. All they are saying is those Sikhs didn't ditch Guru Ji at Anandpur. What is wrong in saying that? History which isn't according to Gurmat has to be corrected. Reference to Dohra is Prehlad Singh. Read previous post carefully. The Dohra we read today is work of Gyani Gyan Singh. I agree that Akaal Takht has the authority but Damdami Taksal, Sant Samaj, AKJ, Nihangs, etc. all have their own maryadas which they follow and preach. First go tell them to follow Akaal Takht Rehat maryada before telling us. Go tell Jathedars to first summon Badal to Takht for sitting on chair in Darbar hall and sitting in feet of sirsa pakhandi. Also tell jathedars to summon Dhumma for having parkash of Dasam Granth besides Guru Granth Sahib Ji at Mehta Chownk. These other groups have been violating maryada for over 50 years, go tell jathedars to summon them first. If they aren't going to be called to Takht, we shouldn't be either. Sant samaj launched an official maryada in 1994 to counter the Akaal Takht one. No one said a word and no one summoned them. Get sant samaj summoned to Takht first. Some guy builds a copy of Darbar Sahib an is now planning to build his own Akaal Takht, tell jathedars to summon him first. Guys make people matha take to Attar Singh's shoes at Rara, tell jathedars to summon to rarawalas at Takht for not following Akaal Takht. If you don't have the courage to speak against them, keep you hands off the computer to tell Gurmat followers on what to follow and what not to follow. If you want to know why Ghagga attaches Prof., call him and find out. His phone # is: 98551 51699

[Guest]

By the way how this guy became professor? Who gave him this title?

The Khalsa Fauji,

You conveniently dodged singh2 question , who gave him this title? what are the qualifications? I think lot of people on here right to ask that question, especially when missionaries have no problem have knee jerk reactions if they someone with sant title. I think tables are turning now, you tell us what are qualifications for becoming prof? may be not in this case of ghagga as you provided his contact there, but generally whats are the qualifications for becoming professor in sikhi? back it up with examples from gurbani.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

The Khalsa Fauji,

You conveniently dodged singh2 question , who gave him this title? what are the qualifications? I think lot of people on here right to ask that question, especially when missionaries have no problem have knee jerk reactions if they someone with sant title. I think tables are turning now, you tell us what are qualifications for becoming prof? may be not in this case of ghagga as you provided his contact there, but generally whats are the qualifications for becoming professor in sikhi? back it up with examples from gurbani.

You have a very valid question! I don't know the exact answer because I don't have any links to missionary colleges and didn't study there either. This is a guess only though but I think they get labelled Prof. if they teach at the college. Gurbani wich professorr akhar aundaa he nahee. How can it be backed up with Gurbani? Professor is a western term used for professor at higher level education institutions. I think this is how he got the title Prof. in front of his name. Maybe someone could call and confirm and post.

[Guest]

Thanks khalsa fauji for your honest response. This comes in handy in response to bhausaria type guys, start going off-topic from the debate by having knee jerk reaction start talking about sant title out of nowhere.

oh btw, check out the thread regarding bhausaria mindset, well look fwd to any feedback or response whenever you got free time:

http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=10112

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Thanks khalsa fauji for your honest response. This comes in handy in response to bhausaria type guys, start going off-topic from the debate by having knee jerk reaction start talking about sant title out of nowhere.

oh btw, check out the thread regarding bhausaria mindset, well look fwd to any feedback or response whenever you got free time:

http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=10112

Teja Singh was highly mistaken about Bhagat bani, bhatt swayas and vars of satta and balvand. Bhagat bani, bhatt swayas, and vars of satta and balvand are fully according to Gurmat. Gyani Mohinder Singh Josh has written a small book about how to understand Bhatt swayas. However, a proper teeka of bhatt swayas will be created in future to prevent any further attacks on bhatt swayas. Bhatt swayas are pure Gurmat and they don't praise any devtas at all. As for words used in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they have a meaning.

E.g. Raam means rammaeeaa meaning rammeaa hoayea meaning omnipresent.

He should have spent more time researching before claiming that bhatt bani is not according to gurmat.

Guru Arjan Ji wrote Guru Granth Sahib Ji in such a way that it wasn't possible to add anything witout getting caught so Guru Granth Sahib Ji is fully authentic. The locking system prevented any anti-Gurmat elements from adding anti-Gurmat work inside Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

[Guest]

Please copy your above post, post it on that thread as well.