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The Khalsa Fauj

Meaning of Mahakaal Shabad?

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Kalyug, nice showing of your Gurmat gyan with your post and choice of words. It is because of language of Gurmukhs like you that whole kaum loves to take khanday kee pahul and is Amritdhari. Keep up the good work fella.

Oh and once you guys are able to debate in public and have gyan to, just send me an email and we will have debate in Toronto.

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Akaal is Nirguna. Kaal is Sarguna God.

please read the verse posted above " Sri kaal ju ki ustat' before replying.

Two lines are given from that.

ਸਦਾ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਯੰ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸਰੂਪੰ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵੰ ਮਹਾ ਭੂਪ ਭੂਪੰ ॥

सदा एक जोतयं अजूनी सरूपं ॥ महा देव देवं महा भूप भूपं ॥

He, who is ever light-incarnate and birthless entity, Who is the god of chief gods, the king of chief kings.

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਨਿਤਯੰ ਨਿਰੂਪੰ ਨ੍ਰਿਬਾਣੰ ॥ ਕਲੰ ਕਾਰਣੇਯੰ ਨਮੋ ਖੜਗਪਾਣੰ ॥੩॥

निरंकार नितयं निरूपं न्रिबाणं ॥ कलं कारणेयं नमो खड़गपाणं ॥३॥

Who is Formless, Eternal, Amorphous and Ultimate Bliss. Who is the Cause of all the Powers, I salute the wielder of the Sword.3.

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and singh2 Jee!

Quote "In Bachitra Natak beginning Guru sahib has written a lengthy eulogy to Kal/Mahakal. When we read that as a whole

it is clear that this is same God as described in SGGS ji."

God does not change by changing the book.

It is not eulogy as expressed by you. A dictionary says eulogy is a formal expression of praise for someone who has died recently.

I feel some basics are missing in these translations.

Please ponder. Words like Ajoonee, Nirankaar, Niroopam can only be for Akaal. But the title of this Hymn is 'Sri Kaal Jee kee Ustati'. Why?

*****

Kaal, Mahaakaal is God's activity. Those may be realized by every Jeev according to his growing consciousness.

Akaal is also the attribute beyond Kaal and Mahaakaal. Its realization is possible by merging in HIM. It cannot be expressed in words.

This is the reason the word Akaal cannot be written without Kaal. This is the limitation of the language.

*****

Reading and discussing has its own charm.

Realizing Truth that is also beyond is something else.

Balbir Singh

Edited by Balbir Singh

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Kalyug, nice showing of your Gurmat gyan with your post and choice of words. It is because of language of Gurmukhs like you that whole kaum loves to take khanday kee pahul and is Amritdhari. Keep up the good work fella.

Oh and once you guys are able to debate in public and have gyan to, just send me an email and we will have debate in Toronto.

You are talking about khande di pahul. have you taken khande di pahul? if so why are not you reading prescribed

banis? Had you read Jaap sahib you would not have raised such silly questions.

Kalyug ji's language is thousand times better than what you use.

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It is not eulogy as expressed by you. A dictionary says eulogy is a formal expression of praise for someone who has died recently.

Dictionary has other meaning also. That is high praise. Did you miss it.

If not able to find that let me know i will post it for you.

Please ponder. Words like Ajoonee, Nirankaar, Niroopam can only be for Akaal. But the title of this Hymn is 'Sri Kaal Jee kee Ustati'. Why?

Kal is functional attribute of same nirankar God. I request you to read jaap sahib. Try it and all your doubts will vanish.

Jaap sahib starts with

ਚੱਕ੍ਰ ਚਿਹਨ ਅਰੁ ਬਰਨ ਜਾਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਪਾਤਿ ਨਹਿਨ ਜਿਹ ॥

च्क्र चिहन अरु बरन जाति अरु पाति नहिन जिह ॥

He who is without mark or sign, He who is without caste or line.

ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਰੇਖ ਭੇਖ ਕੋਊ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਿਹ ॥

रूप रंग अरु रेख भेख कोऊ कहि न सकति किह ॥

He who is without colour or form, and without any distinctive norm.

ਅਚਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਨਭਉ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ ਅਮਿਤੋਜਿ ਕਹਿਜੈ ॥

अचल मूरति अनभउ प्रकास अमितोजि कहिजै ॥

He who is without limit and motion, All effulgence, non-descript Ocean.

ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਣਿ ਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾਣਿ ਗਣਿਜੈ ॥

कोटि इंद्र इंद्राणि साहु साहाणि गणिजै ॥

The Lord of millions of Indras and kings, the Master of all worlds and beings.

ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਮਹੀਪ ਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਅਸੁਰ ਨੇਤਿ ਨੇਤਿ ਬਨ ਤ੍ਰਿਣ ਕਹਤ ॥

त्रिभवण महीप सुर नर असुर नेति नेति बन त्रिण कहत ॥

Each twig of the foliage proclaims: "Not this Thou art.

ਤ੍ਵ ਸਰਬ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਰਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਰਣਤ ਸੁਮਤਿ ॥੧॥

त्व सरब नाम कथै कवन करम नाम बरणत सुमति ॥१॥

All Thy Names cannot be told. That is why wise people call you by functional names

then Guru sahib writes

ਨਮੋ ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲੇ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਸਰਬ ਦਿਆਲੇ ॥

नमो सरब काले ॥ नमो सरब दिआले ॥

Salutation to Thee O All-destroyer Lord! Salutation to Thee O Entirely Generous Lord!

ਨਮੋ ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲੇ ॥ ਨਮੋ ਸਰਬ ਪਾਲੇ ॥੨੦॥

नमो सरब काले ॥ नमो सरब पाले ॥२०॥

Salutation to Thee O Annihilator Lord! Salutation to Thee O All-sustainer Lord!20

Jaap sahib

Edited by singh2

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Dictionary has other meaning also. That is high praise. Did you miss it.

If not able to find that let me know i will post it for you.

Euolgy is to Kal . You will find upto verse 17 description of attributes of Formless God

Chhand 18 onwards Guru sahib describes formless God or description in in terms of human what is not human.

This is called Anthropomorphism.

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and singh2 Jee!

Quote "Euolgy is to Kal . You will find upto verse 17 description of attributes of Formless God"

Please explain if the following Vaaks are attributes of Formless or God in different Forms.

ਮਹਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵੰ ਮਹਾ ਜੋਗ ਜੋਗੰ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਕਾਮ ਕਾਮੰ ਮਹਾ ਭੋਗ ਭੋਗੰ ॥੧੦॥

महा देव देवं महा जोग जोगं ॥ महा काम कामं महा भोग भोगं ॥१०॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਰਾਜਸੰ ਤਾਮਸੰ ਸਾਤਕੇਯੰ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਨਾਰ ਕੇ ਰੂਪ ਧਾਰੇ ਨਰੇਯੰ॥

कहूं राजसं तामसं सातकेयं ॥ कहूं नार के रूप धारे नरेयं॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਦੇਵੀਅੰ ਦੇਵਤੰ ਦਈਤ ਰੂਪੰ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੇਕ ਧਾਰੇ ਅਨੂਪੰ ॥੧੧॥

कहूं देवीअं देवतं दईत रूपं ॥ कहूं रूप अनेक धारे अनूपं ॥११॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਫੂਲ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੇ ਰਾਜ ਫੂਲੇ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਭਵਰ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭੂਲੇ ॥

कहूं फूल ह्वै कै भले राज फूले ॥ कहूं भवर ह्वै कै भली भांति भूले ॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਪਉਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਬਹੇ ਬੇਗਿ ਐਸੇ ॥ ਕਹੇ ਮੋ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਕਥੋਂ ਤਾਹਿ ਕੈਸੇ ॥੧੨॥

कहूं पउन ह्वै कै बहे बेगि ऐसे ॥ कहे मो न आवै कथों ताहि कैसे ॥१२॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਨਾਦ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਾਜੇ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਪਾਰਧੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਧਰੇ ਬਾਨ ਰਾਜੇ ॥

कहूं नाद ह्वै कै भली भांति बाजे ॥ कहूं पारधी ह्वै कै धरे बान राजे ॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਮ੍ਰਿਗ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਮੋਹੇ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਕਾਮੁਕੀ ਜਿਉ ਧਰੇ ਰੂਪ ਸੋਹੇ ॥੧੩॥

कहूं म्रिग ह्वै कै भली भांति मोहे ॥ कहूं कामुकी जिउ धरे रूप सोहे ॥१३॥

Balbir Singh

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and singh2 Jee!

Quote "Euolgy is to Kal . You will find upto verse 17 description of attributes of Formless God"

Please explain if the following Vaaks are attributes of Formless or God in different Forms.

ਮਹਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵੰ ਮਹਾ ਜੋਗ ਜੋਗੰ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਕਾਮ ਕਾਮੰ ਮਹਾ ਭੋਗ ਭੋਗੰ ॥੧੦॥

महा देव देवं महा जोग जोगं ॥ महा काम कामं महा भोग भोगं ॥१०॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਰਾਜਸੰ ਤਾਮਸੰ ਸਾਤਕੇਯੰ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਨਾਰ ਕੇ ਰੂਪ ਧਾਰੇ ਨਰੇਯੰ॥

कहूं राजसं तामसं सातकेयं ॥ कहूं नार के रूप धारे नरेयं॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਦੇਵੀਅੰ ਦੇਵਤੰ ਦਈਤ ਰੂਪੰ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੇਕ ਧਾਰੇ ਅਨੂਪੰ ॥੧੧॥

कहूं देवीअं देवतं दईत रूपं ॥ कहूं रूप अनेक धारे अनूपं ॥११॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਫੂਲ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੇ ਰਾਜ ਫੂਲੇ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਭਵਰ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭੂਲੇ ॥

कहूं फूल ह्वै कै भले राज फूले ॥ कहूं भवर ह्वै कै भली भांति भूले ॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਪਉਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਬਹੇ ਬੇਗਿ ਐਸੇ ॥ ਕਹੇ ਮੋ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਕਥੋਂ ਤਾਹਿ ਕੈਸੇ ॥੧੨॥

कहूं पउन ह्वै कै बहे बेगि ऐसे ॥ कहे मो न आवै कथों ताहि कैसे ॥१२॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਨਾਦ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਾਜੇ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਪਾਰਧੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਧਰੇ ਬਾਨ ਰਾਜੇ ॥

कहूं नाद ह्वै कै भली भांति बाजे ॥ कहूं पारधी ह्वै कै धरे बान राजे ॥

ਕਹੂੰ ਮ੍ਰਿਗ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਮੋਹੇ ॥ ਕਹੂੰ ਕਾਮੁਕੀ ਜਿਉ ਧਰੇ ਰੂਪ ਸੋਹੇ ॥੧੩॥

कहूं म्रिग ह्वै कै भली भांति मोहे ॥ कहूं कामुकी जिउ धरे रूप सोहे ॥१३॥

Balbir Singh

You have broken chhand 10. If you read complete chhand it is clear quite clear what guru sahib is saying.

It means Formless God is God of mahadev . So all these lines are an eulogy to formless God.

ਅਲੇਖੰ ਅਭੇਖੰ ਅਭੂਤੰ ਅਦ੍ਵੈਖੰ ॥ ਨ ਰਾਗੰ ਨ ਰੰਗੰ ਨ ਰੂਪੰ ਨ ਰੇਖੰ ॥

ਮਹਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵੰ ਮਹਾ ਜੋਗ ਜੋਗੰ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਕਾਮ ਕਾਮੰ ਮਹਾ ਭੋਗ ਭੋਗੰ ॥੧੦॥

He is Accountless, Guiseless, Elementless and Blemishless. He is without attachment, colour, form and mark.

He is the Greatest of gods and the Supreme Yogi. He is the Greatest of the rapturous and the greatest of the Ravishing.10.

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and singh2 Jee!

Quote "You have broken chhand 10. If you read complete chhand it is clear quite clear what guru sahib is saying.

It means Formless God is God of mahadev . So all these lines are an eulogy to formless God."

It was to draw your attention on a particular Vaak.

ਮਹਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵੰ ਮਹਾ ਜੋਗ ਜੋਗੰ ॥ Mahaa Dev DevaM means Great Dev of Devas. It does not mean the Formless God of mahadev.

Formless God is God of all.

Also, all is God Himself.

HE Himself is the Praise.

He is praising Himself.

*****

Gurdev wrote Akaal Ustati. Gurdev also wrote Kaal Ustati.

Is there any difference? Please explain.

*****

Please improve the translations first.

For example:

ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਰੇਖ ਭੇਖ ਕੋਊ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਿਹ ॥

रूप रंग अरु रेख भेख कोऊ कहि न सकति किह ॥

He who is without colour or form, and without any distinctive norm.

The correct translation, in my view, is this.

Form, colour and outline, dress nobody can explain.

Gurdev is saying. Nobody can say His Form, Colour, Sketch or Dress.

Your translation says. God does not have these.

*****

I have a curiosity to know.

Gurdev is singing.

ਕਹੂੰ ਫੂਲ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੇ ਰਾਜ ਫੂਲੇ ॥

कहूं फूल ह्वै कै भले राज फूले ॥

kahooN phool hwai kai bhale raj phoole.

Is it wrong to respect and worship flowers?

*****

Merging in God is in progress. HE is realized when He reveals His Nirguna and Sarguna Forms at the same time.

Balbir Singh

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Kalyug, nice showing of your Gurmat gyan with your post and choice of words. It is because of language of Gurmukhs like you that whole kaum loves to take khanday kee pahul and is Amritdhari. Keep up the good work fella.

Fateh!

Thanks for your kind words, veer ji.

I want to thank you also for inspiring Sikhs to read Dasam bani with greater care and for showing us all the dangers of trying to interpret our Father's writings with Kala Afghani's manmati views.

Regards,

K.

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I have a curiosity to know.

Gurdev is singing.

ਕਹੂੰ ਫੂਲ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੈ ਭਲੇ ਰਾਜ ਫੂਲੇ ॥

कहूं फूल ह्वै कै भले राज फूले ॥

kahooN phool hwai kai bhale raj phoole.

Is it wrong to respect and worship flowers

Keep in mind that it is praise of God. In view of that your above point

is meaningless.

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Fauji was insisting on a debate with singhs at toronto.

Here is a reference for that. A singh from tronto has done that already with Fauji/ International akali.

He is again challenging them right in Toronto. Fauji, are you listenting.

http://forums.panthic.net/index.php?showto...35435&st=20

International Akaali, there is a Singh in the Toronto area named Davinder Singh, he recently wrote a small booklet called : ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦਾ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਕਿੳ?

Either you or 'Khalsa Fauj' already has a copy of this booklet, it was handed out at one of the Nagar Kirtans in Toronto. Davinder Singh has already asked one of you to read the booklet and then get back to him. He has not heard back from either of you yet. He is open for ANY debate. In fact, he has successfully debated many of your Kala-Aghani chamchays in Toronto and Faridabad. Feel free to contact him (his number in on the booklet) if you are serious about this.

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You are talking about khande di pahul. have you taken khande di pahul? if so why are not you reading prescribed

banis? Had you read Jaap sahib you would not have raised such silly questions.

Kalyug ji's language is thousand times better than what you use.

Oh yes! I have taken Khanday Kee Pahul. You jealous? I have read and understood Jaap.

Are your children Pahuldhari?

Thanks for your kind words, veer ji.

I want to thank you also for inspiring Sikhs to read Dasam bani with greater care and for showing us all the dangers of trying to interpret our Father's writings with Kala Afghani's manmati views.

I appreciate your comment. If you mean Guru Granth Sahib Ji when you say father's bani, then that is great news. I don't know kala afgani because I follow Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

He is again challenging them right in Toronto. Fauji, are you listenting.

I have been talking to Davinder Singh for more than a year. He talks to me at times. I did call him on one of his numbers but he wasn't available. I just haven't had time to call him again. Just ask him about me and he will tell you. He will also tell you about Vishnu.

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On 12/06/2009 at 2:01 AM, Kam1825 said:

Right this thread has gone on for long enough. Khalsa fauj you talk about a live debate, i will post the one from 2000 when Sant Nihal Singh and the Sangat answer the questions by excommunicated Gurbakhs Singh Afgana. Regarding the Jaap Sahib, Sawaiyas and Choupai being bani, and from 44.40 minutes onwards we get to the shabad of Mahakaal!

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2436660112608428261

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...96676&hl=en

 

Anybody know where these videos can be found on Youtube. I am having trouble locating them. Thanks.

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