Mcleod Has Died.

[singh2]

Well I had to put some objective views in light of the subjective Mcleod love in that seems to have taken place here. So someone who doubted the first vaar of Bhai Gurdas is in your view a great scholar. So why the bias against Kala Afghana? Is it because he is brown skinned and Mcleod was a gora and we all know goray can never be biased!

Nobody is praising Mcleod here. Read my first post. I have given credit where he deserved.

Unlike Macleod kala afghana is thug, a convicted thief and a convicted molester.Read the article i posted.

Only a perverted insane mind will praise him.

[singh2]

Well I had to put some objective views in light of the subjective Mcleod love in that seems to have taken place here. So someone who doubted the first vaar of Bhai Gurdas is in your view a great scholar. So why the bias against Kala Afghana? Is it because he is brown skinned and Mcleod was a gora and we all know goray can never be biased!

Do you condone the nonsense Jagjit writes on dasam granth sahib?

[tonyhp32]

So if someone is a convicted thief or molester then it means he has lost his academic acumen and his views cannot be trusted! So going by your logic how can Mcleod be a great scholar of a religion when was an atheist?

[tonyhp32]

Do you condone the nonsense Jagjit writes on dasam granth sahib?

What are you on about? I don't condone anyone's nonsense especially not the late Mr Mcleods. I don't follow Kala Afghana and i suppose you do know what being a devil's advocate is?

[tonyhp32]

Forgot to mention Mcleod's other infamous theory about the whole militarisation of the Sikhs by Guru Hargobind was due to the influx into Sikhi of large numbers of Jats and not to any intent on the part of the Guru.

I wonder how all those Amritdharis from a non-Jat background here feel about Mcleods theory that you guys are wearing the 5k's because they were a part of jat cultural norms?

Edited July 22, 2009 by tonyhp32

[shaheediyan]

"So why the bias against Kala Afghana? Is it because he is brown skinned and Mcleod was a gora and we all know goray can never be biased!"

Kala Afghana is a wannabe Guru with a hidden agenda who is openly preaching and insulting our whole faith.

McLeod was an academic - at least to the academic world anyway (if not your world), he was simply presenting his findings and opinions, nobody says they were always right.

"So if someone is a convicted thief or molester then it means he has lost his academic acumen and his views cannot be trusted! So going by your logic how can Mcleod be a great scholar of a religion when was an atheist?"

One is a criminal and one is not. One is educated and has Oxford publications, one has not. One has intelligent academics as friends, one has not. Finally, where exactly has Mcleod produced a book on spirituality? He studied mundane topics like history, canon formation and hermeneutics - why does one have to believe in God to study those....

One was a revisionist, one undertook a serious study of Sikh history.

Funny that out of his huge repertoire of 4 decades of research and publication, you could only quote those few sad points.... what happened to the balance!

The man was not a Sikh, but he loved Sikhs (his dedicated research on NZ Sikh Immigration is evidence of that) and his work was unbiased - but because of his understandable lack of belief in the super-amazing/divine, he should be vindicated?

No one is telling anyone to treat him as a Mahapursh (not that you probably believe in them either), but simply as an Historian, and take from his work, that which is of interest.

Simples.

[shaheediyan]

Aaah, the Jatt comments, really seem to have caused sleepless nights for you... lol.

I have spoken to many Jatts, who without any formal education, quite happily implied the same things as McLeod, but in not so many words!

Why don't you also share the footnotes to those comments, lets see where they are derived from! Just out of interest.

And for the record, I totally disagree with McLeod on this point, but for someone looking in from the outside, it doesn't surprise me that they would come to such a conclusion, and I almost certainly would put money on the fact that some 'insiders' would have even put the ideas (very persuasively, in his head)!

[singh2]

What are you on about? I don't condone anyone's nonsense especially not the late Mr Mcleods. I don't follow Kala Afghana and i suppose you do know what being a devil's advocate is?

Jagjit, daljit, Gurteja, Jasbir Mann of iOSS clique have done many times more damage to sikhism than Mcleod.

They commmitted a blasphemy by spreading false information about Dasam granth. jasbir mann spread an outrageous

commnet about Mata Ganga ji's respect for Baba Bhudha ji. Are you not aware of that? If not then tell me and i will post

the relevant information about this agng of heretics.

[tonyhp32]

No those Jat comments don't give me sleepless nights. Why should they? If anything McLeod is giving us Jats a back handed compliment but for some like me the truth is worth more than cheap compliments. I know there are many Jat idiots but none so brazen to put forward the view that it is disappointing that none of the Gurus were Jats. What footnotes are you referring to? So Jats have said to you that the 5ks are a part of their culture and not the gift of Guru Gobind Singh? I doubt that. Your views on kalaafghana and Mcleod are not exactly objective. One doubts Bhai Gurdas's vaar and Chandi Charitar but he's ok because he has books published by Oxford and the other doubts Dasam Granth but he's evil because he publishes the books himself. Great logic. I have no doubt that given our friend Bahadur's associations in the academic field he could easily get a book about Sikhism with his warped views published by Oxford but then would you also give him the same respect and deference?

[Mithar]

I can’t believe that people on a Sikh forum are giving Mcleod compliments. I think I’m going blind. Yes Kala Afghana is a dusht and a naastic, but for God sake Mcleod is no friend of the Sikhs either. It is good Tony Jee (as usual) has put everything in correct perspective.

[shaheediyan]

Apples and bleeding mangos being compared here mate.

Kala Afghana is a DIY Guru/Preacher/Heretic.

McLeod is an Historian/Academic.

Hellooo?

Bahadurs works could never be trusted because he has obvious bias, created through bad experiences with Sikhs (whether his fault or not).

McLeod had not venom for Sikhs, quite the opposite, as I said, his excellent work in Sikh immigration in NZ was ground breaking in this field - and was an act of passion and friendship.

My Jatt comment was in response to the Sikh militarisation point you made. Re the dress, I think Mcleod was leaning towards the rvaaj/simple dress code of Jatts of that time. Of course he was wrong in this case, no doubt.

But if you are going to quote, I request you do so in context - giving his reasoning behind his opinions, otherwise you are simply resorting to desperate character assasination.

[singh2]

I can’t believe that people on a Sikh forum are giving Mcleod compliments. I think I’m going blind. Yes Kala Afghana is a dusht and a naastic, but for God sake Mcleod is no friend of the Sikhs either. It is good Tony Jee (as usual) has put everything in correct perspective.

Mithar ji

No one is complimenting Mcleaod. It is being said that offence of kala afghana propped by IOSS thugs was of more grave danger than

that of Mcleod school. Moreover Macleod was no sikh. Distortions were not unexpeced. That is what is being said here.

[singh2]

No those Jat comments don't give me sleepless nights. Why should they? If anything McLeod is giving us Jats a back handed compliment but for some like me the truth is worth more than cheap compliments. I know there are many Jat idiots but none so brazen to put forward the view that it is disappointing that none of the Gurus were Jats. What footnotes are you referring to? So Jats have said to you that the 5ks are a part of their culture and not the gift of Guru Gobind Singh? I doubt that. Your views on kalaafghana and Mcleod are not exactly objective. One doubts Bhai Gurdas's vaar and Chandi Charitar but he's ok because he has books published by Oxford and the other doubts Dasam Granth but he's evil because he publishes the books himself. Great logic. I have no doubt that given our friend Bahadur's associations in the academic field he could easily get a book about Sikhism with his warped views published by Oxford but then would you also give him the same respect and deference?

We are not be categorised as jats or any other denomonation.We are sikhs.

What does a rapist know about the depth of bani of tenth master. That shows that you

are OK with the disresepct for tenth master's writings.

To a person like me kala afghana and his thug gang is much bigger evil than mcleod.

if given the chance i will like kala afghana gang to be excommunicated first and then anyone else.

[Mithar]

Whatever Mcleod was, we as brothers should not argue over this. I have great respect and admiration for Tonyhp32 and Singh2 because of their knowledge. Kala Afghanists and Mcleodians need to be countered intellectually, and that can only be done by Singhs like you guys. The Anti Dasam Granth groups like the Kala Afghanists have become a problem for the Panth since late 90s. Before that, I remember it was the Mcleodians who were the main issue of talk amongst the Vidhvaans just as the Kala Afghanists are today. Both are dangers and both need to be countered. Of course the Kala Afghanists are more dangerous since they look and talk like Sikhs, when in fact they are just a bunch of former communists. I have some relatives who were former communists, now they are hardcore Kala Afghanists.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Mithar

[Bijla Singh]

Kala Afghana is paid by the RSS and their puppet and no one expects anything pro-Gurmat from him. But if Mcleod had no agenda (which I disagree with) then how could a learned man with PhD make so many mistakes and question the very roots of our religion? An ignorant person who knows nothing about Sikh history would suggest that Jatts influenced Guru Sahib to raise arms but if the same statement comes from someone who is supposedly learned and has access to vast historical accounts and proofs then clearly he has an agenda. Mcleod ignored Vaars (and misinterpreted them), Gurbani references and janamsakhis. He calls Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha wrong simply because he belonged to Singh Sabha. He wrote that Guru Nanak Sahib did not start any new Panth without giving any proof from Gurbani and Vaars. Even a kid can raise the same questions as Mcleod did but only a true learned person with unbiased mind can write something that reflects true beliefs of the religion. What kind of a scholar or historian ignores all the proofs and writes books on mere conjectures? He was not a Sikh but doesn’t mean he had the right to attack Sikhi without any proofs. He had the responsibility to be ethical and objective but he failed. Had he given any evidence to prove his points he would’ve had some credibility but he simply declared himself right by basing his arguments on assumptions and then contradicted himself by saying “possibly” “probably” etc. Read Dr. Trilochan Singh’s book in which he has rebutted every silly statement of Mcleod against Gurmat and shows what kind of hidden agenda Mcleod had. He is dead but caused enough damage (even more than kaloo raam) to Sikhi in the western world.

[shaheediyan]

"Even a kid can raise the same questions as Mcleod did but only a true learned person with unbiased mind can write something that reflects true beliefs of the religion."

This is totally flawed and euphoric statement. The truth is, that to you, a truely learned person and unbiased mind, wil only reflect your beliefs, which you hold as true.

I would advise anyone who is interested to read McLeods works themselves, yes, they can at times be difficult reading, but if you read them in context and refer to his sources (which are not being mentioned here), you can see the audit trail of his thoughts (be it wrong). This shows and proves he had no agenda, to suggest so is ridiculous, as the documentary shows, he had Sikh friends and admirers, who could seperate the wheat from the chaff.

The claims here coming from Singhs who never even knew McLeod or spoke to him, claiming he was no friend of Sikhs, are ridiculous.

People need to stop living off the conspiracy theories and criticisms of others and actually do some khoj themselves.

[singh2]

So if someone is a convicted thief or molester then it means he has lost his academic acumen and his views cannot be trusted! So going by your logic how can Mcleod be a great scholar of a religion when was an atheist?

If someone writes about religion, he has to have a good moral life himself. Sikhism is clear on that. Guru sahib says

Truth is high

But still higher is truthfull living

Kala afghana is no academic. You need to read about his credentials before commenting.

You seem not to read what is being said here. I did not commend Mcleod for his writings.

i wrote that he did good for sikhism by digitizing their literature that included a lot of manuscripts in

Sikh refernce Library, Amritsar. It was done before 1984.

You also fail to understand the field of their studies. Kala afghna writes about sikh scritures.Mcleaod wrote sikh history.

APPLES and ORANGES are not same.

[singh2]

Whatever Mcleod was, we as brothers should not argue over this. I have great respect and admiration for Tonyhp32 and Singh2 because of their knowledge. Kala Afghanists and Mcleodians need to be countered intellectually, and that can only be done by Singhs like you guys. The Anti Dasam Granth groups like the Kala Afghanists have become a problem for the Panth since late 90s. Before that, I remember it was the Mcleodians who were the main issue of talk amongst the Vidhvaans just as the Kala Afghanists are today. Both are dangers and both need to be countered. Of course the Kala Afghanists are more dangerous since they look and talk like Sikhs, when in fact they are just a bunch of former communists. I have some relatives who were former communists, now they are hardcore Kala Afghanists.

Mithar ji,

supporter of kala afghana and detarctor of Dasam granth is no brother of mine.

Tony need to understand the field of two writers. Kala fghana writes on sikh scriptures

whereas Mcleod wrote about sikh history.

[shaheediyan]

Its not even comparing Apples and Pears, its like comparing KFC and Beetroot!

The blind and uniformed hate these people have clouds their sense of discrimination.

Having spoken to McLeod for a releatively short time, and others who knew him,I can confidently AND 1st HAND say he was man with good morals and good standing in the community, he was always polite and was always respectful - even when one blatently disagreed with him on certain issues. so your attempt to stain his personal charater, when you never even knew the guy is pretty pathetic.

I know other athiests too, who have much more tolerance, respect, integrity and honesty than many so called Sikhs. It is exactly these fanatical and illogical attitudes that caused them to loose faith in God in the 1st place - due to Gods self proclaimed representatives/believers (in whatever faith) - same was true for Mcleod.

It was actually his morals which lead him to leave the Church and their damning mentality.

Nakli Guru Kala Afghana and his growing Bhasauria (direct or indirect)/CA Singh Sabiya DASAM GRANTH SAHIB QUESTIONING gang are just a nasty and temporary stain on the 'religion' (not history) of the Sikhs.

[dalsingh101]

McLeod is an Historian/Academic.

Hang on!

Are some of you i.e. Shaheediyan and Singh2 unaware of the background his Phd thesis in "Sikhism". I trust at least one of you have been to university? People normally get peer reviewed and are supervised by people who are actually experts in a field. All of this was jettisoned in McLeod's case, he even admits to as much in his biography.....

First I thought you guys were hawkishly guarding Sikhi but now I see, you choose who you want to vilify and who you want to exhalt based on your own agendas/feelings.

[singh2]

Hang on!

Are some of you i.e. Shaheediyan and Singh2 unaware of the background his Phd thesis in "Sikhism". I trust at least one of you have been to university? People normally get peer reviewed and are supervised by people who are actually experts in a field. All of this was jettisoned in McLeod's case, he even admits to as much in his biography.....

First I thought you guys were hawkishly guarding Sikhi but now I see, you choose who you want to vilify and who you want to exhalt based on your own agendas/feelings.

You can only indulge in empty talk and are an expert in diverting the topics.

I take pleasure in defending sikh values so that gurnindaks of kala afghan school of thought

do not go uncontested after spreading false, mischievous and misleading information to sangat.

I am still awaiting reply from you in another thread on Dasam granth for the last 10 days.

[singh2]

Nakli Guru Kala Afghana and his growing Bhasauria (direct or indirect)/CA Singh Sabiya DASAM GRANTH SAHIB QUESTIONING gang are just a nasty and temporary stain on the 'religion' (not history) of the Sikhs.

These so called champions of sikhi condemn Dasam granth without realizing that this is a blasphemy.

[dalsingh101]

You can only indulge in empty talk and are an expert in diverting the topics.

I take pleasure in defending sikh values so that gurnindaks of kala afghan school of thought

do not go uncontested after spreading false, mischievous and misleading information to sangat.

I am still awaiting reply from you in another thread on Dasam granth for the last 10 days.

You've lost all credibility in my eyes. You're not worthy of a response. Your exaggerated concern for Dasam Granth whilst giving open support/sympathy for someone found to be guilty of blasphemy against the Shri Guru Granth sahib ji says it all.

And yet again, you draw the thread from discussing Mcleod and his chumchay to the Dasam Granth.......again......but all of a sudden you find Mcleod and Pashaura to be good old boys....you really don't give a damn about blasphemy do you, if it comes from sources you like.

Keep yourself busy, cut and paste another halve dozen articles, that will make you right in all you say.

zzzzzzz

[singh2]

You've lost all credibility in my eyes. You're not worthy of a response. Your exaggerated concern for Dasam Granth whilst giving open support/sympathy for someone found to be guilty of blasphemy against the Shri Guru Granth sahib ji says it all.

And yet again, you draw the thread from discussing Mcleod and his chumchay to the Dasam Granth.......again......but all of a sudden you find Mcleod and Pashaura to be good old boys....you really don't give a damn about blasphemy do you, if it comes from sources you like.

Keep yourself busy, cut and paste another halve dozen articles, that will make you right in all you say.

zzzzzzz

Dalsingh101

That is a typical reply of a person who has run out of steam. You have told it earlier also but came back to discuss.

Now when the chips are down again an escapist attitude . Lies do not go a long way. Guru sahib has written

" Kur Nikhute nanaka orak sach rahi"

Obviously you have nothing in your closet to disprove the authenticity of Dasam granth as Dasam granth itself

is clear cut proof of guru sahib's writing. In that case you should have the courage to admit that you withdraw from

that discussion. I have to write this here as you ran away from the other thread.

For Mcleod read my starting post in this thread That is reproduced below.

I did not join the discussion till you blamed this forum of being pro Mcleod.

You know in your heart that you were telling lie. But still you had the courage to lie.

http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?sh...=11660&st=0

I must say, this is most McLeod friendly Sikh forum I have encountered...lol

Normally his name is like a swear word.

.

Reply by singh2 in the same thread

I do not agree with many of Mcleaod' observations on sikh history but he did a lot in identifying and digitizing

many manuscripts of our religion of which our so called scholars were unaware. He handed over the list

to SGPC. This was done by him before 1984.

Incompetent and faithless sikh scholars of the types of Gurtej singh, Jasbir singh mann, Jagjit singh , daljit singh

of IOSS considered it an attack on their hold of sikhism. They created a vicious atmosphere and lobbied with Akal

takhat to penalize an old Gursikh Piar singh and pashaura singh on filmsy grounds and got them excommunicated.

The same heretics later on made mockery of akal takhat directives by creating a phnatom of kala afghana and misled

Sikhs by disowning their own scripture.

Sikhs are not thankless people. They remember the contribution of people of other religions for sikhism however small it may be.

So will they remember Macleod as well. May his soul rest in peace.

Unquote

Edited July 23, 2009 by singh2

[shaheediyan]

"Hang on!

Are some of you i.e. Shaheediyan and Singh2 unaware of the background his Phd thesis in "Sikhism". I trust at least one of you have been to university? People normally get peer reviewed and are supervised by people who are actually experts in a field. All of this was jettisoned in McLeod's case, he even admits to as much in his biography.....

First I thought you guys were hawkishly guarding Sikhi but now I see, you choose who you want to vilify and who you want to exhalt based on your own agendas/feelings."

How is the University process his fault? He went to a reputed University, his responsibilty is to present research, not to ensure the Uni is doing their job.

Read the posts carefully instead of letting your personal issues with Singh2 cloud your thoughts.

I vilify people with clear agenda, who class themselves as Sikhs and much more and are clearly insulting my Gur-Pita and his bani, whilst claiming to be his son. These are heretics, McLeod does not fall under the definition of heretic.

No one is saying all his views are correct, far from it, we are only acknowledging the postive aspects of his years of study/reseach in light of his death. I am also correcting the pathetic attempts at character assasination coming from forum experts who live off other agenda driven peoples criticisms. Also correcting the pathetic comparison with Kala Afganana - Panth destroyer and his chelai.