Mcleod Has Died.

[Mithar]

But why can't Singhs who are against the Kala Afghanists and Mcleodians come to the same platform? These are not two seperate issues. Both are enemies of the Panth, and both need to be countered. I have been reading Sant Sipahi magazine since I was a kid. I remember they used to write articles countering the Mcleodians, just as they are now doing to the Kala Afghanists. Sant Sipahi Magazine see’s every thing in correct perspective.

Before the current Kala Afghanist controversy, it was the Mcleodians who were our main enemies and were being countered by Sikh vidhvaans. Take my word, once the Kala Afghanists have been destroyed, it will be the Mcleodians who will take on the role of dividing the Panth. Mcleod’s work has not found any credibility amongst Sikh vidhvaans for obvious reasons, but they have found plenty of credibility amongst the Niddarites (sanatan chelas of Niddar).

The Kala Afghanist threat will be finished, I’m sure of that, but get prepared for the resurgent Mcleodian threat.

[singh2]

But why can't Singhs who are against the Kala Afghanists and Mcleodians come to the same platform? These are not two seperate issues. Both are enemies of the Panth, and both need to be countered. I have been reading Sant Sipahi magazine since I was a kid. I remember they used to write articles countering the Mcleodians, just as they are now doing to the Kala Afghanists. Sant Sipahi Magazine see’s every thing in correct perspective.

Before the current Kala Afghanist controversy, it was the Mcleodians who were our main enemies and were being countered by Sikh vidhvaans. Take my word, once the Kala Afghanists have been destroyed, it will be the Mcleodians who will take on the role of dividing the Panth. Mcleod’s work has not found any credibility amongst Sikh vidhvaans for obvious reasons, but they have found plenty of credibility amongst the Niddarites (sanatan chelas of Niddar).

The Kala Afghanist threat will be finished, I’m sure of that, but get prepared for the resurgent Mcleodian threat.

In my assesment kala afghana is a front man of forces that are operating behind the scene. Their main focus is on distortion of sikh scriptures

and mislead the younger generation of sikhs. This has happened after 1984 and is an effort to weaken sikhs. this is called chankya niti where

four principles are used of Manu smiriti namely sam,dham, dand and bhed.

Sam means win over the enemy by showering affection. If not successful, win over by bribing. If not successful use third method that is punishment

and still failing finally divide. So mode of division is being used through their sikh agents. So this brigade of kala afghana are not sikhs even though

they may appear in names. They are agents of inimical forces at large. .Nowhere academic reevaluation of religious scriptures is allowed by any religion

of the land. It has happened with us now. So act of kala afghana and their agents at large is not pardonable.They need to be dealt on top priority

Mcleod's subject is different. Unlike kala afghana Mcleod is dealing with history. That lessens the gravity of his offence. He has made uncharitable remarks

on sikh history and i have condemned those on various forums especially his views on Guru Nanak sahib's visits to Baghdad. I have stated that in my first

post.

I am not saying that we accept what Mcleod is offering in his books. At the same time see the role of kala afghhanis who raised their voice against him. They themselves

are not friends of sikhism and need to be kicked out. We should watch what they say. They themselves are indulging in worst blasphemy and even buying people in India

to write against Dasam granth sahib. . So sikhs should decide who are more dangerous. Mcleod group has already been dealt with by sikhs and is marginalized.

[singh2]

I vilify people with clear agenda, who class themselves as Sikhs and much more and are clearly insulting my Gur-Pita and his bani, whilst claiming to be his son. These are heretics, McLeod does not fall under the definition of heretic.

This is the statement that has come from heart of a sikh. It is correct and sums up the debate.

[tonyhp32]

It might not be Mcleod's fault that his supervisor of his PhD thesis was not an expert on Sikhism but it casts doubt on McLeod's qualifications in the field in which he subsequently taught and wrote about. It is all the more relevant as McLeod has consistently questioned the qualifications of those Sikhs who have counterted his mischief by stating that they do not hold them in the field of history. One question that comes to mind if why Mcleod did not choose to do his PhD at an Indian university? No doubt the snobs on here would reply that he wanted his doctorate to be from a well reputed western University but then why do a PhD at a place where he would have known that would have been unable to provide the supervisor who would have been an expert in this field? McLeod seems to have thought that he could kill two birds with one stone. He could get a doctorate from a well reputed western university without the danger that his substandard and mischevious research could have been challenged. With this doctorate he could become the 'foremost' scholar on Sikhism because his degree came for a reputable western university.

The amusing thing is that most if not all of the controversial works of McLeod have been countered and yet he is still considered the foremost scholar on Sikhism.

First I thought you guys were hawkishly guarding Sikhi but now I see, you choose who you want to vilify and who you want to exhalt based on your own agendas/feelings."

Never a truer statement made on this forum.

Edited July 24, 2009 by tonyhp32

[singh2]

It might not be Mcleod's fault that his supervisor of his PhD thesis was not an expert on Sikhism but it casts doubt on McLeod's qualifications in the field in which he subsequently taught and wrote about. It is all the more relevant as McLeod has consistently questioned the qualifications of those Sikhs who have counterted his mischief by stating that they do not hold them in the field of history. One question that comes to mind if why Mcleod did not choose to do his PhD at an Indian university? No doubt the snobs on here would reply that he wanted his doctorate to be from a well reputed western University but then why do a PhD at a place where he would have known that would have been unable to provide the supervisor who would have been an expert in this field? McLeod seems to have thought that he could kill two birds with one stone. He could get a doctorate from a well reputed western university without the danger that his substandard and mischevious research could have been challenged. With this doctorate he could become the 'foremost' scholar on Sikhism because his degree came for a reputable western university.

The amusing thing is that most if not all of the controversial works of McLeod have been countered and yet he is still considered the foremost scholar on Sikhism.

The same old rants without reading what has been said earlier. That shows your agenda especially when Mcleod's issue has taken a back seat

in sikh circles. Please read the views of others before jumping to gun.

Never a truer statement made on this forum.

Birds of a feather flock together. To you blasphemy of kala afghna festered and sustained by IOSS buddies is of no consequence.

[shaheediyan]

"Mcleod’s work has not found any credibility amongst Sikh vidhvaans for obvious reasons, but they have found plenty of credibility amongst the Niddarites (sanatan chelas of Niddar)."

Mithar, are you sure about this, I have never heard Nihang Nidar Singh or his Shastar Vidya students mention or quote McLeod, in the past, I have certainly heard Nihang Singh quote from Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindernan, various Nihang Mahapurkh/Akalis, Panth Prakash, Suraj Prakash, Amarnama, Gurbilas 6/10, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib (PREDOMINANTLY), Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib (PREDOMINANTLY), Sri Guru Granth Sahib to name but a few, but never from McLeod...

Is this another cheap shot at collecting all the monsters under your bed into one basket - probably some mass 'umbrella' conspiracy hey...

Trinity of evil - Afghana - McLeod - Nidar Singh.. lol, 3 groups that couldn't be more different.

The real trinity of evil is Afghana - Gaggu - Darshani - why because they pretend to represent the Sikh faith and are attempting to alter the 'religion'.

McLeod is an Historian - if his findings are wrong (which some are)- fine - that is what makes the academic field what it is - debate. That has been McLeods greatest contribution - the enlargement/growth of serious Sikh study - be it to rebutt his opinions, no one is championing every word he has spoken - that is all in your head.

Nidar Singh Nihang is a Shastar Vidya Gurdev - his opinions on Sikh theology are irrelevant to the majority of his students - who come from all types of Sikh backround i.e. AKJ, Taksali, Sant etc - and many intoxicant free, nighclub free, vegetarians (SHOCK HORROR). He teaches the art and psychology of war - which is different to spiritual Sikh practice - this is what many people cannot understand.

Neither of the latter 2 have any influence on 'Sikhi' or theological/spiritual practice - Singh, you need to get a grip.

Anyway, I'm siging out of this thread, I like to see the good in people wherever I can, whilst also identifying/differenitating from true malice.

If you people cannot see the difference, thats not my problem, tuhanu tuhaada mat mubaarek.

[Ishraqi]

Thanks for Shaheediyan for writing competently about McLeod. McLeod was a historian and as such his findings were part of an academic debate. He had no agenda. A lot of his work needs to be reviewed but to be frank he has opened many doors and had it not been for him the only literature we would have in the West about Sikhism would be restricted to the 20 page 10 rupees booklets you can buy around the Golden Temple with titles such as "Hair: source of the life" or "The Sikhism: a religion for the modren man".

[dalsingh101]

Obviously you have nothing in your closet to disprove the authenticity of Dasam granth as Dasam granth itself

is clear cut proof of guru sahib's writing. In that case you should have the courage to admit that you withdraw from

that discussion. I have to write this here as you ran away from the other thread.

It is only in your imagination that the world is divided between those 'heretics' who want to disprove the authenticity of DG and those who are its defenders.

If you'd read and absorbed what I have previously said, instead of ignoring it to suit your own skewed perception, I have said that I am studying the DG. If anyone doing this asks questions along the way, it does not make them heretics, unless you follow the Taleban school of Sikh thought. I have never been disrespectful of the contents of DG, so you can put that accusatory finger away. Instead perhaps point it at Pashaura Singh who actually has been found to have blasphemed against SGGS ji. Whom you seem to be defending like you are a relative of his. What sort of Sikh is that who is guided by an atheist like McLeod anyway?

McLeod should have stuck to translating manuscripts and restrained his wildly speculative and often erroneous opinions. The fact his that his malicious opinions and false notions are being accepted as the current apex of Sikh studies by the west means that his work will give those reading a very incorrect perception of Sikhs and Sikhi.

He follows a form of representation known as Orientalism. I seriously suggest people look this up. It does much to explain the failings of western research such as McLeods, when studying other cultures/ways of life/beliefs.

Here is an extract about an important work on this:

Many scholars place the beginning of postcolonial studies in history, literature, philosophy, anthropology, and the arts at the publication of Said's Orientalism, published in 1978.

Said focuses his attention in this work on the interplay between the "Occident" and the "Orient." The Occident is his term for the West (England, France, and the United States), and the Orient is the term for the romantic and misunderstood Middle East and Far East.

According to Said, the West has created a dichotomy, between the reality of the East and the romantic notion of the "Orient. The Middle East and Asia are viewed with prejudice and racism. They are backward and unaware of their own history and culture. To fill this void, the West has created a culture, history, and future promise for them. On this framework rests not only the study of the Orient, but also the political imperialism of Europe in the East.

Edward Said:

Unlike the Americans, the French and British--less so the Germans, Russians, Spanish, Portugese, Italians, and Swiss--have had a long tradition of what I shall be calling Orientalism, a way of coming to terms with the Orient that is based on the Orient's special place in European Western Experience. The Orient is not only adjacent to Europe; it is also the place of Europe's greatest and richest and oldest colonies, the source of its civilizations and languages, its cultural contestant, and one of its deepest and most recurring images of the Other. In addition, the Orient has helped to define Europe (or the West) as its contrasting image, idea, personality, experience. Yet none of this Orient is merely imaginative. The Orient is an integral part of European material civilization and culture. Orientalism expresses and represents that part culturally and even ideologically as a a mode of discourse with supporting institutions, vocabulary, scholarship, imagery, doctrines, even colonial bureaucracies and colonial styles. . . .

It will be clear to the reader...that by Orientalism I mean several things, all of them, in my opinion, interdependent. The most readily accepted designation for Orientalism is an academic one, and indeed the label still serves in a number of academic institutions. Anyone who teaches, writes about, or researches the Orient--and this applies whether the persion is an anthropologist, sociologist, historian, or philologist--either in its specific or its general aspects, is an Orientalist, and what he or she says or does is Orientalism. . . .

Related to this academic tradition, whose fortunes, transmigrations, specializations, and transmissions are in part the subject of this study, is a more general meaning for Orientalism. Orientalism is a style of thought based upon ontological and epistemological distinction made between "the Orient" and (most of the time) "the Occident." Thus a very large mass of writers, among who are poet, novelists, philosophers, political theorists, economists, and imperial administrators, have accepted the basic distinction between East and West as the starting point for elaborate accounts concerning the Orient, its people, customs, "mind," destiny, and so on. . . . the phenomenon of Orientalism as I study it here deals principally, not with a correspondence between Orientalism and Orient, but with the internal consistency of Orientalism and its ideas about the Orient . . despite or beyond any correspondence, or lack thereof, with a "real" Orientalism.

(Orientalism. New York: Vintage, 1979, 1-3,5.

http://www.wmich.edu/dialogues/texts/orientalism.htm

[amardeep]

Could someone post some of his theories and accusations which you find heretic? i'd like to see them..

[singh2]

It is only in your imagination that the world is divided between those 'heretics' who want to disprove the authenticity of DG and those who are its defenders.

We are not taking about the opinion of world but opinion expressed by sikhs. All sikhs are believers in Dasam granth being the writings of tenth amster.That is why hymns of Dasam granth are sung in kirtan from harmandir sahib. Those few who oppose it are heretics. Akal takhat hukamnama term them as mischievous elements. I am using the correct name for them.

If you'd read and absorbed what I have previously said, instead of ignoring it to suit your own skewed perception, I have said that I am studying the DG. If anyone doing this asks questions along the way, it does not make them heretics, unless you follow the Taleban school of Sikh thought. I have never been disrespectful of the contents of DG, so you can put that accusatory finger away. Instead perhaps point it at Pashaura Singh who actually has been found to have blasphemed against SGGS ji. Whom you seem to be defending like you are a relative of his. What sort of Sikh is that who is guided by an atheist like McLeod anyway?

You need to keep your tongue in check till you are sure what is contained in dasam granth. Your derogatory remarks here and there doubting the authorship are highly unwarranted. If you desire i can post many remarks here.

Please keep in mind that mcleod's field was not sikh theology but sikh history. He has made mistakes and nobody defends him for those mistakes.Nobody has defended Pashaura singh here. I said that comparing the role of heretics of IOSS who abuse Dasam granth calling it Gand da tokra , Pashaura singh's gravity of offence is far less. But it is an irony that people who have been groomed by blind hate towards compositions of tenth master do not see it as an offence when dasam granth compositions are being insulted in the filkthy language.

McLeod should have stuck to translating manuscripts and restrained his wildly speculative and often erroneous opinions. The fact his that his malicious opinions and false notions are being accepted as the current apex of Sikh studies by the west means that his work will give those reading a very incorrect perception of Sikhs and Sikhi.

He follows a form of representation known as Orientalism. I seriously suggest people look this up. It does much to explain the failings of western research such as McLeods, when studying other cultures/ways of life/beliefs.

Mcleod is part of history now. He had been marginalized in sikh circles when alive. Had he left behind an institution to carry out his work sikhs should have noted it with concern. So all attempts of creating a theory of conspiracy have no ground and fail miserably. His works are confined to archives of histroy.

But kala afghna gang is active and alive busy to distort sikh scriptures and misinterpretation of gurbani. We need to watch and expose this heretic school of thought propped and sustained by anti sikh forces.

[singh2]

Could someone post some of his theories and accusations which you find heretic? i'd like to see them..

I do not know if the question was addressed to me. I post below the kala afghhani mode of operation

Someone was claiming that this so called place has no link with kala afghana sect. That was a lie.

See below and click the link for photos

http://forums.panthic.net/index.php?showto...35435&st=20

Veer Bhupinder & Co. continue to stir Controversy Wednesday 20th of September 2006 Panthic Weekly News Bureau

"No need for Nitnem or Amrit"

Veer Bhupinder and Kala-Afghana on tour in Southern California tour, July of 2002

New Delhi (KP) - Veer Bhupinder, the controversial urban missionary in hot water for performing a marriage ceremony of a Delhi couple where the traditional lavan ceremony was twisted to mirror the Hindu marriage ritual when a man and a woman both alternatively lead the 'pharays' is being asked to face the consequences for his recent mischievous actions. Taking a serious note, Panthic organizations such as Shahbaaz Khalsa and Khalsa Alliance have demanded that Veer Bhupinder and his supporters be summoned to Akal Takht Sahib for this religious breech.

Voice of Kala-Afghana Veer Bhupinder, is a close associate of ex-communicated detractor Gurbaksh Kala-Afghana, and has coordinated programs with the anti-Panthic Rahtriya Sikh Sangat (RSS). According to those who know Veer Bhupinder, his views are 100% in line with his mentor Kala-Afghana. In 2002, it was a common sight to see Veer Bhupinder visiting various Gurdwaras in the USA, purporting the ideals of Kala-Afghana using a softer approach. He often visited a particular Gurdwara several days before Kala-Afghana would arrive, in order to set up the 'proper' atmosphere. This included challenging the authenticity of Nitnem, the concept of Amrit, and Naam Simran.

For years he himself has defied and ridiculed the Panthic Maryada, but in a recent letter to clarify his stand addressed to the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Management Committee regarding the controversial wedding, he now claims that he supports everything regarding the "Akal Takht Rehat Maryada." In the letter, he states :

"ਦਾਸ ਅਕਾਲ ਤਖਤ ਵਲੋਂ ਜਾਰੀ ਪੰਥਕ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਯਾਦਾ ਵਿਚ ਪੂਰਾ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਰਖਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਨਿਮਰਤਾ ਸਹਿਤ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਚਾਹੁਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਕਿਸੀ ਵੀ ਸੰਸਥਾ ਜਾਂ ਕਿਸੀ ਵਿਅਕਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਅਕਾਲ ਤਖਤ ਦੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਿਯਾਦਾ ਨੂੰ ਬਦਲਣ ਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਹੱਕ ਨਹੀ ਹੈ ।" (Unicode Gurmukhi)

An email circulated in English by the "The Living Treasure" organization, stated that "He always follows and abides by Sikh Rehat Maryada and even preaches in his discourses that we shall all abide by the Code of Conduct (Sikh Rehat Maryada) of Akal Takht."

Contrary to the above claim, he is often seen challenging the very maryada he now confesses to support and adhere to. According to the Khalsa Alliance, a key Panthic organization that worked to expose the real face of Kala-Afghana in the western media, "Veer Bhupinder, and other two-bit western 'missionaries' are attempting to pick up the tasks left by Kala-Afghana. Although these half dozen 'missionaries' around the world cannot do much on their own, they do get free publicity from ex-communicated spokesman editor Joginder Sinh, and Harjinder Dilgeer."

Not surprisingly, this time it is these very same people Khalsa Alliance has mentioned who have come to Bhupinder's defence. A Khalsa Alliance representative commented, "Despite the fact that some of these individuals are very clever, and eloquent, they have now buried themselves in their own trap. On one side they state there is no Panthic Maryada. On the other side they are trying desperately to show that they do support the Sikh Rehat Maryada, the same one they have always publicly doubted and criticized. This is pure hypocracy."

Examples provided by the Khalsa Alliance of this 'hypocrisy' include:

* Veer Bhupinder stating if "Sukhmani (Sahib)" could not cool the hot tavaa (plate) for Guru Arjan Dev Ji, what could it possibly do for you by repeatedly reciting it ? (Pro-Kala Afghana missionaries are vehemently against the recitation of Gurbani for spiritual purposes)

* There is no use for the Kirpan that Amritdharis nowadays wear, nor is there a need to 'bhet' a Kirpan for Deg or Langar. (Most Kala Afghana followers are not Amritdharis, thus they see no practical reason for the kakkars.)

* Langar is also useless in Gurdwaras and should not be served. (Most Kala Afghana followers, such as Veer Bhupinder promote meat eating, so langar serves no purpose since meat is not allowed in Guru-ka-Langar.)

* There is no need to recite any "Gurmantar." The word 'WaheGuru' is not even mentioned in Gurbani, there is no need to recite it like a parrot. (Kala Afghana followers do not believe that Bhagat Banee or Svaiyay of the Bhatts is Banee. In a 2003 debate with members of Khalsa Alliance in Fresno, California, Veer Bhupinder and his brother stated that the verse "ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ (1402)" does not prove that word "ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ" was ever used by our Gurus, since this verse in written by a Bhatt, and hence not Gurbanee.

Due to such remarks, Veer Bhupinder was blacklisted by Northern California Gurdwaras in 2002 and has not been allowed there since.)

Nevertheless, it is clear in the Sikh Rahit Maryada under article IV, section 1, that: ਨਾਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਾ ਅਭਿਆਸ 1. ਸਿੱਖ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲੇ (ਪਹਿਰ ਰਾਤ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ) ਜਾਗ ਕੇ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰੇ ਅਤੇ ਇਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦਾ ਧਿਆਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ 'ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ' ਨਾਮ ਜਪੇ । (1) A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours, take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name 'Waheguru.'

*

*

*

*

*

*

Although he has stated that "he always follows and abides by Sikh Rehat Maryada", yet Veer Bhupinder does not hesitate to condemn some of the practices mentioned in the maryada.

One question that arises is that if Veer Bhupinder abides by the Sikh Rehit Maryada, then why did he perform Kirtan for the lavan at the marriage function in Delhi? His supporters state: "to maintain the sanctity of Guru Granth Sahib, Bhupinder Singh Ji had to complete the lavan but in the course "ਇਹ ਮਹਿਸੁਸ ਕੀਤਾ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਯਾਦਾ ਮੁਤਾਬਕ ਨਂਹੀ ਹੋਈਆਂ । Bhupinder Singh Ji as totally unaware…, it was done in a very haphazard condition else he would have never agreed to sing the lavan. Because Bhupinder singh ji firmly follows Sikh rehat maryada and believes ਕਿ ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਜੱਥੇਬੰਦੀ, ਸਂਸਥਾ or individual ਨੂੰ ਅਕਾਲ ਤਖਤ ਦੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਮਰਯਾਦਾ ਵੀੱਚ ਕੁਝ ਵੀ amendment ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਹਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ." (Extract from statement by "The Living Treasure")

If the above was true, then why didn't he protest and walk away from the ceremony that violated the Sikh Maryada? By participating in manmat, how is he maintaining the sanctity of Guru Granth Sahib?

One must now ask why is our Nitnem, Amrit, Gurbani, Kakkars, and now our Anand-Karj being challenged by these missionaries? Perhaps the public needs to look further underneath their fake-divinity mask. Due to the uproar over this bold step by the Delhi Missionaries, petitions have been filed at Sri Akal Takht Sahib against the involved individuals. It is expected that the Jathedars will be meeting in the next few weeks in regards to the filed complaints. Reference letters : Letter from DSGMC regarding Anand Karj Gurmat Parchar Jatha Poster promisiting a 'new kind' of Anand Karaj Gurmat Parchar Jatha Poster with Veer Bhupinder's Name as a key participant Tarsem Singh's Resignation letter to DSGMC Veer Bhupinder's letter claiming his innocense to DSGMC

Edited July 24, 2009 by singh2

[Bijla Singh]

This is totally flawed and euphoric statement. The truth is, that to you, a truely learned person and unbiased mind, wil only reflect your beliefs, which you hold as true.

Singh Ji, Guru Nanak Sahib started a new Panth which is believed by Bhai Gurdas Ji other Gurus and the entire Panth. This is not my personal belief but the truth. Bhai Gurdas Ji gives reasons as to why 6th Nanak Ji raised arms. This is not my personal belief but Sikh beliefs. Mcleod starts attacking Sikhi right from the first page. I don’t think kaloo raam should be compared to Mcleod as both did damage in their own ways. Many renowned scholars refuted Mcleod and did not agree with him. If his “findings” led to in depth study of Gurmat then kaloo raam’s work is not any different. His anti-Gurmat books led scholars to dig deep and bring forth Siri Gur Katha. Karam Singh historian’s book led scholars to find Soochak Parsang Guru Ka and Granth of Bhai Binod Singh to support existence of Bhai Bala Ji. This in no way means that Mcleod, Karam Singh and Kaloo Raam were correct and did not intentionally create confusion among the Sikhs and attacked Sikhi’s roots. Kaloo’s work stays within the Panth and limited to only those who know Punjabi but Mcleod’s work reaches to non-Punjabi and non-Sikhs who know nothing about Sikhi. His work can be read by anyone in the world since English is a world language these days. This to me is more damaging. Mcleod was not another Macauliffe but Trumpp.

[singh2]

I think role of Mcleod is not being understood here. He was a historian. He was not a sikh. Historians are not the persons to interpret and comment on

contents of religious scriptures of religion. Academic study of religious scritpures is not allowed. To my understanding Mcleod has not delved into that field.

On the other hand kala afghana field was to go through the contents of scriptures of sikhs and disown them.

Those who understand Punjabi should read the article below to know about kala afghanaism

http://www.sameydiawaaz.com/Main/Html/Lekh...016.12.2007.htm

[amardeep]

no i was talking about the heretic theories of mcleod

[dalsingh101]

Singh2/Admin

Could we remove/keep Kala Afghana stuff in another thread. This one was about McLeod not Afghana.

[singh2]

Singh2/Admin

Could we remove/keep Kala Afghana stuff in another thread. This one was about McLeod not Afghana.

The thread related to death of Mcleod. It would have been better if the thread would have related to that.

In Punjab we have a saying

Dushamn mare ta khushi na kariye

Sajjana bhi mar jaana

(One should not rejoice on the death of an enemy

As friends will also come to pass one day)

People started quoting some disgraced heretics to vent their ire on a dead person who had already been marginalized

in sikhism. That is when ethics demanded that a true picture of those people should be put in front sangat so that

their role is known as they are no lovers of sikh interests either.

The two things become inseparable now as it draws parallelism of the roles of two sides.I will request admin to start a new

thread if some people want to discuss writings of Mcleod.

Edited July 24, 2009 by singh2

[dalsingh101]

The insidious influence of McLeod's work on people who stumble upon his books whilst studying Sikhism will long outlast McLeod's personal presence here on earth.

Singh2, your hypocrisy is unlike anything I have encountered before. Try and stick to discussing McLeod (or his influence on Sikh studies) in this thread please. You can make a whole new thread for Kala Afghana and say all you like about him there.

[Mithar]

Singh2/Admin

Could we remove/keep Kala Afghana stuff in another thread. This one was about McLeod not Afghana.

True. Let us keep Kala Afghana threat seperate from Mcleod threat. BOTH are threats to Sikh Panth non the less. Kala Afghana is the current threat, but once this threat is over, Mcleodians will be a resurgent threat by then trying to fill the void left by the defeated anti Panthic Kala Afghanist forces. It is better to take care of them right now instead of ignoring this threat for later. As Bijla Singh Jee said, the Mcleodians are widely read by non Sikhs internationally. Ask any Gora or Kala if they ever read a book about Sikhi, I guarantee that the first book they read was by Mcleod from the local library, and obviously they will get a wrong understanding of Sikhi. Even many Sikh kids born and raised in the west start their introduction to Sikhi through Mcleod's works.

These western eurocentric scholars have done much distortion when interpreting Indian philosophies and history while their knowledge of Sanskrit and other Indian languages is level of a school child.

[singh2]

The insidious influence of McLeod's work on people who stumble upon his books whilst studying Sikhism will long outlast McLeod's personal presence here on earth.

Singh2, your hypocrisy is unlike anything I have encountered before. Try and stick to discussing McLeod (or his influence on Sikh studies) in this thread please. You can make a whole new thread for Kala Afghana and say all you like about him there.

dalsingh101 ji

Please read my first post in this thread where i have made a clear statement when you labelled this forum as pro Mcleoed.

This shows i am not a fan of Mcleod. When thugs and their motives are exposed there is a hue and cry.

All i am saying that let us discuss the works of mcleod in a separate thread.

My first post ohere

I must say, this is most McLeod friendly Sikh forum I have encountered...lol

Normally his name is like a swear word.

.

I do not agree with many of Mcleaod' observations on sikh history but he did a lot in identifying and digitizing

many manuscripts of our religion of which our so called scholars were unaware. He handed over the list

to SGPC. This was done by him before 1984.

Incompetent and faithless sikh scholars of the types of Gurtej singh, Jasbir singh mann, Jagjit singh , daljit singh

of IOSS considered it an attack on their hold of sikhism. They created a vicious atmosphere and lobbied with Akal

takhat to penalize an old Gursikh Piar singh and pashaura singh on filmsy grounds and got them excommunicated.

The same heretics later on made mockery of akal takhat directives by creating a phnatom of kala afghana and misled

Sikhs by disowning their own scripture.

Sikhs are not thankless people. They remember the contribution of people of other religions for sikhism however small it may be.

So will they remember Macleod as well. May his soul rest in peace.

[singh2]

True. Let us keep Kala Afghana threat seperate from Mcleod threat. BOTH are threats to Sikh Panth non the less. Kala Afghana is the current threat, but once this threat is over, Mcleodians will be a resurgent threat by then trying to fill the void left by the defeated anti Panthic Kala Afghanist forces. It is better to take care of them right now instead of ignoring this threat for later. As Bijla Singh Jee said, the Mcleodians are widely read by non Sikhs internationally. Ask any Gora or Kala if they ever read a book about Sikhi, I guarantee that the first book they read was by Mcleod from the local library, and obviously they will get a wrong understanding of Sikhi. Even many Sikh kids born and raised in the west start their introduction to Sikhi through Mcleod's works.

These western eurocentric scholars have done much distortion when interpreting Indian philosophies and history while their knowledge of Sanskrit and other Indian languages is level of a school child.

Mithar ji

Start a new thread. No one is stopping anyone from doing that.

Need to remember also that when they are reading Mcleod works they are reading sikh history.

They are not reading sikh philosophical outlook of our Guru sahibs.

Have you found any institutionalized center for propagating Mcleodism. if so please let us know.

I will be the first to counter his distortion fo sikh history at places.

Do Not club fields of kala afghana and Mcleod together. They are separate.

Edited July 24, 2009 by singh2

[dalsingh101]

Sikhs are not thankless people. They remember the contribution of people of other religions for sikhism however small it may be.

So will they remember Macleod as well.

Yes, like they remember Trumph and his distortions.

Do Not club fields of kala afghana and Mcleod together. They are separate.

You are the one harping on about KA in this McLeod thread. Take some of your own advice.

Edited July 24, 2009 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Anyway, it is remarkable that McLeod jettisoned much of the valid understanding gained from research into orientalism and carried on like some Victorian ignoramus rewriting Sikh history into the 21st century. That alone is indicative of his bias and intentions. Like those that preceded him McLeod followed the orientalist pardigm in all his work. Insofar as he was essentially an instrument of an academic colonialism that seeks to describe Sikhs to the western world in a way that made them look like they themselves had a very poor understanding of themselves. This was simply playing the old "othering" game and feeding White notions of supremacy against unenlightened "orientals".

I am a Western historian, trained in the Western methods of historical research and adhering to Western

notions of historiography. No attempt has ever been made to conceal this fact. I have always maintained

that I am a Western historian and if that status deprives me of reasonable understanding of Sikhism then

so be it. … McLeod

Yes, he really did try to understand Sikhs from a holistic perspective didn't he.......

Edited July 24, 2009 by dalsingh101

[singh2]

Yes, like they remember Trumph and his distortions.

Moghals were enemies of sikhs. When younger sahibzadas were bricked alive, Nawab of malekotla spoke against this

in the court of Wazir khan.

During partititon Muslims were killed all over Punjab but Malerkotla was not touched. Sikhs have history

of recognizing the good done by their enemies.

in 1984 most of manuscripts were looted and carried away from Sikh refrence library by

GOI. It was Mcleod who had digitized those and given a copy of those to SGPC.

He needs credit for that. Do not you think so.

[singh2]

Anyway, it is remarkable that McLeod jettisoned much of the valid understanding gained from research into orientalism and carried on like some Victorian ignoramus rewriting Sikh history into the 21st century. That alone is indicative of his bias and intentions. Like those that preceded him McLeod followed the orientalist pardigm in all his work. Insofar as he was essentially an instrument of an academic colonialism that seeks to describe Sikhs to the western world in a way that made them look like they themselves had a very poor understanding of themselves. This was simply playing the old "othering" game and feeding White notions of supremacy against unenlightened "orientals".

Yes, he really did try to understand Sikhs from a holistic perspective didn't he.......

dalsingh101

You have posted generalizations so far. can you post concrete quotes form his works so that we can discuss

those specifically. That is what is required from a scholar of your calibre.

here is another singh asking for the same from you in the same thread.

QUOTE (amardeep @ Jul 24 2009, 04:16 PM) *

Could someone post some of his theories and accusations which you find heretic? i'd like to see them..

Edited July 24, 2009 by singh2

[dalsingh101]

Moghals were enemies of sikhs. When younger sahibzadas were bricked alive, Nawab of malekotla spoke against this

in the court of Wazir khan.

During partititon Muslims were killed all over Punjab but Malerkotla was not touched. Sikhs have history

of recognizing the good done by their enemies.

in 1984 most of manuscripts were looted and carried away from Sikh refrence library by

GOI. It was Mcleod who had digitized those and given a copy of those to SGPC.

He needs credit for that. Do not you think so.

As far I as I am aware the only thing he done of this nature is to publish the Chaupa Singh rahitnama from the library that was sacked. This manuscript was one that was lost so what is in his published work is all that survives of it. Apparently he made a copy of the work in that publication. This was a rahit written by Brahmin which he thought was the earliest extant example (mid 1700s). Recently Jeevan Deol discovered a smaller rahit that was much earlier (early 1700s)

If you know something I do not about this digitising of manuscripts, please share. Because I have not heard of this wholesale digitising of manuscripts of the library. Please share where you learnt this and what evidence you have that it is true? If so what manuscripts did he digitally record?

If you can't I can only presume you are either making this up or are repeating rumour.