Mcleod Has Died.

[Mithar]

Singh2 brother, while I agree with you about everything concerning the Kala Afghanists, but I’m left puzzled as to why you would want to defend the Mcleodians? A wolf is a wolf even if he is in a sheep’s skin, these Mcleodians are wolves. Just because the Kala Afghanists see the Mcleodians as enemies also does not mean the Mcleodians are not our enemies too. An enemy of an enemy is not always necessarily a friend.

The Mcleodians still have alot of Prachar going on, especially in the west, though to a lesser degree than the Kala Afghanists. I personally know of many young Sikhs who were born and raised in the west who started off their intro to Sikhi through Mcleod’s books. They have a very distorted view of Sikhi as a result, almost to the extent of being Naastics. Just as no Panthic Sikh has a good word to say about the Kala Afghanists, you will not find a single Panthic Sikh who has a good word to say about the Mcleodians.

Just because the Mcleodians also happen to disagree with the Kala Afghanists does not mean we should now start to befriend them or defend them. That is a grave mistake, and is the same as feeding milk to the snake, at the end the snake will bite the hand that feeds it.

Hew Mcleod is as much of a friend of the Sikhs as Peter Joseph creator of Zeitgeist is a friend of Christianity.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Mithar

[tonyhp32]

Singh2

Ok I see what you are getting at, my quote may be taken as implying that PS states that Guru Nanak had nothing to do with the Mool Mantar. My intention as the quote given by myself that along with a lot of Shabads PS states that Guru Arjan Dev changed the words of Mool mantar to be more in line with poetic metre. Basically he is saying that Guru Nanak was not such a good poet and Guru Arjan had to refine Guru Nanak's shabads to give them to final shape they are today. This is blasphemy because as a Sikh he should believe Guru Nanak when he states

ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥

Guru Arjan Dev also says-;

ਬੋਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੀ ਖਸਮ ਦਾ ॥

So if both the Gurus state that they pass on the Bani as it comes from Waheguru then who is Peshaura Singh to make blasphemous statements which attack the integrity of Gurbani?

Peshaura Singh stated the above in his research, then at Akal Takht he admitted his mistake but then once he was out of India he has been publishing bukwas such as this as his research, all the time using the money donated by Sikhs!

Edited July 27, 2009 by tonyhp32

[singh2]

The Mcleodians still have alot of Prachar going on, especially in the west, though to a lesser degree than the Kala Afghanists. I personally know of many young Sikhs who were born and raised in the west who started off their intro to Sikhi through Mcleod’s books. They have a very distorted view of Sikhi as a result, almost to the extent of being Naastics. Just as no Panthic Sikh has a good word to say about the Kala Afghanists, you will not find a single Panthic Sikh who has a good word to say about the Mcleodians.

Mithar ji

Mcleod's was historian. His field of study was history. While interpreting sikh hsitory he had made mistakes. I condemn those mistakes.

For example he disowned some episodes from janam sakhis. On the other hand kala afghana and missionaries reject janam sakhis altogether.

They say Bhai bala was is an imaginary character. Do you agree with that. This is just one example.

Then they say there were no chali muktas, Guru Gobind singh did not dictate SGGS at Damdama sahib.Who is more dangerous?

another charge against Mcleod was that he did not consider Guru Nanak sahib as originator of Sikh religion. He has rebutted this charge

in his autobiography which his detractors are not taking into account as it came late in a series of books. He also clarifies in his biography that his

earlier speculation about kartarpuri was wrong and he stands corrected on this.

I am not defending him here. I am saying that to resort to witch hunt is not a sikh trait. That is why one need to put refrences from his books

here for others to judge instead of flogging a dead man. That is not being done and that shows hidden agenda of those who are themselves much more

guilty in tarnishing sikh ideology.

Unlike Mcleod Kala afghana dealt with sikh scriptures. he made outrageous comments not only on dasam granth sahib but also on SGGS and sikh practices.

Many partiicpants do not know those. As and when in get time i will put those here for the sangat to see the real evil. When he attacks Dasam granth sahib he is in effect attacking personality of Tenth master.

mcleod has not left any institutionalized legacy to carry on his distortion of sikhism. He was a loner. His so called disciples are working class men who earn their livelihood by attending their jobs. On the other hand kala afghana legacy is well oiled , propped and sustained by a well knit atheist school of thought supported by anti sikh forces who are dominant players in India. Now you decide who is more dangerous a dead man or living monsters.

Edited July 27, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

Singh2Ok I see what you are getting at, my quote may be taken as implying that PS states that Guru Nanak had nothing to do with the Mool Mantar. My intention as the quote given by myself that along with a lot of Shabads PS states that Guru Arjan Dev changed the words of Mool mantar to be more in line with poetic metre. Basically he is saying that Guru Nanak was not such a good poet and Guru Arjan had to refine Guru Nanak's shabads to give them to final shape they are today. This is blasphemy because as a Sikh he should believe Guru Nanak when he states

Tony , We agree that he did not say that Mool mantra was not written by Guru nanak dev ji.

He wrote that there were corrections done by Guru arjan dev ji.Can you list the words of mool mantra in question which were corrrected per pashara singh

Pashaura singh was wrong and nobody endorses him for that. Was he not punished by akal takhat for that? if so then what is the problem now?

Also keep in view the outrageous remarks by so called IOOS zealot Mann on the personality of Mata Ganga ji. Do you know that?

Edited July 27, 2009 by singh2

[Mithar]

Brother we are not even discussing Kala Afghanists. Let us just discuss Hew Mcleod on here.

Brother, no one is disputing the fact that Kala Afghanist are a danger to the Panth. That IS A FACT. We all acknowledge that and firmly believe this fact. Leaving that issue aside, why are we disputing the fact that Mcleodians as enemies of the panth? The rest of the Panth see's them as enemies. Hew Mcleod was not a loner, he had his academics chelle in the west. He may not have left an institution, but his work through his books are his lasting legacy which will have negative consequences through those who read his books.

In the west, devils like Mcleodians are considered an "authority" on Sikhism by the academic community. Can you imagine how damaging it would be to Christianity of Peter Joseph creator of Zeitgeist was considered an authority on Christianity? That is exactly how Hew Mcleod is for Sikhism.

[singh2]

Brother, no one is disputing the fact that Kala Afghanist are a danger to the Panth. That IS A FACT. We all acknowledge that and firmly believe this fact. Leaving that issue aside, why are we disputing the fact that Mcleodians as enemies of the panth? The rest of the Panth see's them as enemies. Hew Mcleod was not a loner, he had his academics chelle in the west. He may not have left an institution, but his work through his books are his lasting legacy which will have negative consequences through those who read his books.

Mithar ji

Who are those chelas. Are they sikhs? please let us know here.

I was talking to a staunch sikh who is heading sant sipahi. I asked his opinion about Mcleod.

He told me that Mcleod might have his shortcomings but he did a lot for sikhs as he was the first who

translated many old books in english. he cited the example of rehtanamas.

Edited July 27, 2009 by singh2

[shaheediyan]

"The Mcleodians still have alot of Prachar going on"

Who are these parcharaks, I have never heard of them, this seems wishy washy to me - McLeod was an Academic, not a self made naastik Guru like Afghana/Darshani, so the whole notion of 'Mcleodian parchaaraks' seems like a nonsense to me.

There is a difference between Academia and Religion - I don't know why everyone here except Singh 2, can't seem to grasp that idea.

The reason people are called Afganis is not because they know about him, have read his works etc, but because they support his ideas/or some of them - i.e. they are heretics, like those who doubt Dasam Bani - some of whom participate in these debates. Be it indirect - the 2 biggest heretics in recent times were Bhasauria and Afghana - they have real legacies - as they were corrupted/reformist parchaaraks, and created the whole notion of doubting Dasm Bani.

Mcleod admitted his mistakes where he felt he was proven wrong without a doubt, this is where Academics and Naastik agenda driven nakli Gurus differ.

[singh2]

"The Mcleodians still have alot of Prachar going on"

Who are these parcharaks, I have never heard of them, this seems wishy washy to me - McLeod was an Academic, not a self made naastik Guru like Afghana/Darshani, so the whole notion of 'Mcleodian parchaaraks' seems like a nonsense to me.

There is a difference between Academia and Religion - I don't know why everyone here except Singh 2, can't seem to grasp that idea.

The reason people are called Afganis is not because they know about him, have read his works etc, but because they support his ideas/or some of them - i.e. they are heretics, like those who doubt Dasam Bani - some of whom participate in these debates. Be it indirect - the 2 biggest heretics in recent times were Bhasauria and Afghana - they have real legacies - as they were corrupted/reformist parchaaraks, and created the whole notion of doubting Dasm Bani.

Mcleod admitted his mistakes where he felt he was proven wrong without a doubt, this is where Academics and Naastik agenda driven nakli Gurus differ.

Your post puts the things in right perspective.

Some poeple have endorsed the blasphemy of Kala afghana by calling him an academic. Had he been an academic

i would not have gone after him. Had he criticized kissa of heer ranjha his personal character would not have mattered to me.

Kala afghna is criticizing sikh scriptures. he starts with Dasam granth sahib and later passing scathing remarks on SGGS ji as well.

I see a double standard being applied here when some keep their eyes shut when dasam bani which is as divine as other banis

is beingderided and not only that also becoming a willing accessory to this blasphemy.

[amardeep]

I think you people are mixing beliefs with emperic evidence. A historian looks at emperic evidence and bases his conclusions on these alone, while a beliver can belive in things even though there are no emperic evidence to suggest his conclusions are true.

When Mcleod doubts some parts of Amrit Sanchar 1699 it is due to the lack of written evidence, and not because he is out to undermine sikhism. I dont know who Pashura Singh is, nor have i read his works but if he is educated in the west, he will have the approach of an academic towards Sikhi, and emperic evidence shows that the mool mantar in goindwal pothis is different to that we see in Guru Granth Sahib today.. so on the basis of these two emperic evidence he makes his conclusions...

Please be aware and learn to seperate between the approach of a believer and a researcher. A beliver belives in the damdama sahib bir whereas a historian does'nt since there is no mentioning of this bir ever being written by Guru Gobind Singh.

[singh2]

I think you people are mixing beliefs with emperic evidence. A historian looks at emperic evidence and bases his conclusions on these alone, while a beliver can belive in things even though there are no emperic evidence to suggest his conclusions are true.

When Mcleod doubts some parts of Amrit Sanchar 1699 it is due to the lack of written evidence, and not because he is out to undermine sikhism. I dont know who Pashura Singh is, nor have i read his works but if he is educated in the west, he will have the approach of an academic towards Sikhi, and emperic evidence shows that the mool mantar in goindwal pothis is different to that we see in Guru Granth Sahib today.. so on the basis of these two emperic evidence he makes his conclusions...

Please be aware and learn to seperate between the approach of a believer and a researcher. A beliver belives in the damdama sahib bir whereas a historian does'nt since there is no mentioning of this bir ever being written by Guru Gobind Singh.

You asked about pashaura singh.THis is what i read about Dr pashaura singh on the net. The following article is from Sikhchick.com site.To me Pashaura singh looks to be a much better and devout sikh

than the otherside who do not even lead an observant sikh's life.

http://www.sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?id=550&cat=19

My Guru & I

by PASHAURA SINGH

This is the first of a series of articles we have asked a wide variety of personages to pen in commemoration of the Tercentenary (1708-2008) of the investiture of Guru Granth Sahib as our eternal Guide and Teacher.

This year, we are celebrating the 300th anniversary of the investiture of the Sikh scripture as the living embodiment of the Guru.

It is an occasion that offers us an opportunity to reflect on our relationship with the most revered Guru Granth Sahib.

Like any other child born in a Sikh family, my first exposure to Sikhi came from my mother. She sowed the seed of Gurbani ("Guru's Utterances") within me in my early childhood.

I was about seven years of age when she instructed me to learn one stanza (pauri) of the Japji Sahib by heart within a day or two. After learning that stanza, I would recite it to her from memory to receive a reward of one paisa (Indian penny) for each stanza I subsequently recited.

It took about two months to memorize the complete Japji Sahib and my mother gave me a rupee and a quarter to celebrate the acquisition of my richest possession.

Since then, Japji Sahib has remained embedded in my memory.

Following the same process, I learned the other banis of Nitnem ("daily routine"). I was simply following the example of my mother who had learned these sacred compositions, including Guru Arjan's Sukhmani Sahib, by heart by the age of thirteen.

She used to compare the memorization of Gurbani by heart with the acquisition and possession of money (Gurbani kanth paisa ganth), in that it is readily available for use in every act of reflection, moral deliberation, as well as in times of personal crises. Her living relationship with Gurbani touched my heart, mind and soul in the most intimate ways in my formative years.

Occasionally, I saw my mother reciting Sukhmani Sahib even during her sleep.

I was in the seventh grade at Guru Hargobind Khalsa Higher Secondary School, Gurusar Sudhar, when my father died from surgical complications at the Dayanand Hospital, Ludhiana, on 14 April 1962.

At the conclusion of the Sahaj Paath ("Reading of the Guru Granth Sahib") in his memory, Granthi Inder Singh encouraged me to come to the gurdwara every evening. He began tutoring me along with other boys from my village in the reading of the Guru Granth Sahib through the traditional mode of santhia ("Lessons") of Gurbani.

We used to gather in a circle at the gurdwara to recite five to ten pages of a two-volume set of the Sikh scripture in each sitting after Granthiji explained to us the correct enunciation of the passages of Gurbani. We were required to repeat those pages eight times before the next sitting on the following day.

We would absorb and rehearse those lessons until Granthiji was completely satisfied. This process went on for more than six months to complete the reading of the Guru Granth Sahib.

I participated in my first Akhand Path ("Unbroken Reading") to celebrate the birth anniversary of Guru Nanak in November of 1962. It was a joyous occasion when I graduated as an Akhand Pathi.

Granthi Inder Singh was a most learned man, with a remarkable command of languages, including Persian and Sanskrit. His understanding of the deeper aspects of Gurbani had a magnetic effect on my learning process. Previously a teacher at a local school, he left his job to become a Granthi at our village gurdwara.

I also learned to perform kirtan at that time. The following year, I stood first in the middle standard examination and won a scholarship. I ascribe my academic success that year to my relationship with the Guru Granth Sahib.

My teachers at school, Master Jaswant Singh, Master Gurbax Singh, Master Gursevak Singh, Master Joginder Singh, and Principal Bhagwant Singh, took a keen interest in my education and always encouraged me to excel in my studies. These individuals were my role models as dedicated Sikhs who taught Sikh history and Gurbani, all the while teaching me Mathematics, English and other subjects.

Our school day always began with a morning assembly prayer at the historical gurdwara commemorating Guru Hargobind's stay at our village. It consisted of keertan, ardaas and vaak ("Order of the day") from the Guru Granth Sahib, followed by instructions by the Principal. The environment at the school was so conducive that it strengthened my love for devotional singing of Gurbani.

Most of my school teachers were active associates of Bhai Randhir Singh. They used to perform rehan sabaai kirtan ("all night devotional singing") with him when he was alive. After him, they frequently organized kirtan programs in the neighbouring villages and cities, and I eagerly participated in them.

Our School jatha ("group") was well known in the surrounding areas for performing Sikh weddings (Anand Karaj), kirtan programs and Gurparab celebrations on a voluntary basis.

After completing a B.Sc. degree at the G.H.G. Khalsa College, Gurusar Sudhar, I joined the Government College, Ludhiana, to do an MA in Mathematics.

Something here changed the course of my life.

On 10 January 1971, my mother instructed me to start a reading of the Guru Granth Sahib, to complete within a week. I was asked not to go to college during that week. I would read the Guru Granth Sahib and my mother would listen with perfect concentration. In the evening, my mother would tell me about her life experiences and would advise me to focus my attention on the study of the Guru Granth Sahib.

On the final day, before completing my reading of the Guru Granth Sahib, she gave me a number of instructions, including a specific one that no one should be allowed to cry at her death. I just listened to her conversation without even considering that it would be her parting request.

On the morning of Sunday, 17 January 1971, I started devotional singing of Asa di Var and then completed the Bhog ceremony of the Guru Granth Sahib. After the congregational prayer, I took the Vaak (a verse picked at random) and read Guru Ram Das's hymn in Jaitsiri mode that ended with the line:

"At Dharamraja's portal, the records of the devotees are torn, says Nanak, and their reckoning is closed" (dharamrai dari kagadu phare jan nanaku lekha samajha).

At the time of giving karah prashad ("sanctified food made of flour, sugar and butter, and water, and prepared in a large iron dish") to my mother, I told her that her reckoning is closed. She smiled and bowed her head in gratitude. Then we all shared in the communal meal of langar. My mother enquired from me whether everyone had eaten.

My friends came to seek her blessings as they left, and I went outside to see them off.

The moment I left her, she called my sister-in-law and bade her final greeting ("Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa/ Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh") and passed away.

We started doing kirtan again and urged everyone not to cry at all, but instead to celebrate the gift of her life. This was the moment when I realized the power and authority of the divine Word (Vaak) taken from the Guru Granth Sahib.

My fatherly teacher, Master Jaswant Singh, took me to Patiala to meet with Professor Harbans Singh, the editor-in-chief of the celebrated Encyclopaedia of Sikhism. He was Masterji's student at Khalsa School Muktsar and held him in great regard.

Prof. Harbans Singh inspired me to join Guru Nanak Institute, Gurmat College, at Patiala in 1971 to pursue my interest in the area of Sikh Studies.

The two years spent at that premier institution constituted the most productive period of my intellectual life. I had the rare opportunity to listen to the views of such distinguished scholars as Dr. Taran Singh, Dr. Ganda Singh, Principal Satbir Singh, Professor Sahib Singh, Giani Lal Singh, Professor Piara Singh Padam, Professor Gurbachan Singh Talib, Dr. Avtar Singh, including some visiting Professors of Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Christian traditions.

They all provided different approaches to study the various dimensions of the Sikh scripture. At no point did I ever feel that my personal relationship with the Guru Granth Sahib was in jeopardy. Rather, each new perspective added to my close relationship with my Guru.

At Gurmat College, we frequently listened to the discourses of Sant Gurmukh Singh of Patiala in rustic Punjabi. In one of his sermons, he made the distinction between two approaches of reading the Sikh scripture; one with just reading it as a sacred book (Guru Granth Sahib "nu parrhna") and the other was reading "from" the Guru (Guru Granth Sahib "ton parrhna").

Accordingly, the first approach builds intellectual pride (haumai) while the second one makes one humble. He made the point that the real understanding of Gurbani could take place only when we approached it with complete faith in it as the living embodiment of the Guru.

Let me conclude this piece with my ongoing relationship with my Guru.

Each day, I record the Vaak of the Guru Granth Sahib in my journal and try to understand the meaning of life in its light. Often, it provides a divine clue to look at the trials and tribulations of life with equanimity.

After listening to the Vaak from the Darbar Sahib, I go for my morning walk and complete my daily routine of banis (Nitnem) from memory. I have always felt that the Divine Word (Shabad) is an intimate companion in my heart, mind and soul.

This is the spiritual treasure that I inherited from my mother, and this is the inexhaustible wealth that I have already passed on to my children. I have frequently heard the voice of the Eternal Guru, speaking directly to me when I needed the guidance at moments of personal crises.

When I listen to my daughter performing kirtan in the original ragas of the Guru Granth Sahib, accompanied by her brother on tabla, I bow my head in gratitude. This way, I pay my tribute to my Beloved Guru for the countless blessings that I have received in my life.

Indeed, an active engagement with the Divine Word amounts to a one-on-one conversation with the Guru. This spiritual dialogue is the only sure means to self-discovery.

I see the Guru Granth Sahib as the clearest mirror through which we see our "true self", the core of our being.

[Dr. Pashaura Singh, Professor at University of California, Riverside, is its "Dr. Jasbir Singh Saini Chair" in Sikh and Punjabi Language Studies. ]

[shaheediyan]

Oh wait, surely this is a decoy, to halt the attacks of the 'CA SS Panthic Hinduphobic Police-Force' and the adherants of its 'Dur-Mat' mindset, and brainwash the Sikh Nation into following these self-styled Gurus, who spread their westernised 'evidence' based research version of Sikh spirituality (disguised as Oxford approved Sikh History and Canonical Study) and are trying to convert the masses through replacing the amrit sanchar with the creation of intelligent debate!

Thanks Amardeep, for restoring my faith (somewhat) in humanity and common sense.

[amardeep]

huh????

[shaheediyan]

Thanks for your constructive contribution.

[amardeep]

what are you talking about??

[SAadmin]

Guys give it a rest, enough said on this topic. Regardless of what people think about him all in all he is dead at human level - Let his soul rest in peace. People who have criticism against him, do include him also in your sarbat da bhalla ardas.

Topic Closed due to going around in circles