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Can Women Be In The Panj Pyare


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2 - According to Bhai Svarup Singh Kaushish, Panj were taken into tambu and asked to chatka a bakra.

I have heard this story also (as opposed to the other story of Dasmesh Pita chatakaing the 5 bakray). Do you have a source for this, Singh? What was the name of the Bhai Sahib's book?

K.

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"Same history i believe rattan singh bhangu talks about panj pyares previous lives of being known bhagats mentioned in sri guru granth sahib ji. Question then comes down to- is bhramgyan is state of mind which gets renewed every life through the efforts or one state which stays through out. I go for the latter view."

Does Panth Prakash or Suraj Prakash not also state that the Sahibzadey were Avatar of devtay like Shiva Ji, Brahma etc...

I don't personally have a problem, with any of the above, but we should be careful picking and choosing.

There would be nothing wrong with understanding the above in poetical/metaphorical context i.e. the Panj Pyare/Sahibzadey representing the personality/shakti of the Bhagats/Devtai etc.

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Doesn't the words of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji say it all. He asked for 5 heads, not five bakra. Unless you want to call Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji a hypocrite and a deciever, then the blood on the sword did come from a bakra. Guru Sahib wouldn't ask for heads and then do something different in the tambu.

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Doesn't the words of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji say it all. He asked for 5 heads, not five bakra. Unless you want to call Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji a hypocrite and a deciever, then the blood on the sword did come from a bakra. Guru Sahib wouldn't ask for heads and then do something different in the tambu.

Yes these historical texts DO state the Guru Maharaj asked for 5 heads of his sikhs (sacrifices of complete devotion to the Guru Sahib).The Blessed Five, answered the call by offering their "than, man, dhan". What Guru Maharaj did in the tambu, is the Gurus mazza, his own divine kushi as ordained by Akal Purakh.

What these historical text authors are stating is what was the prevalent belief of what MAY have happened, these could be oral information handed down from direct or indirect personal experiences from the actual event. There is nothing hypocritical in this at all.

Edited by Satgyan-pujari
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"Same history i believe rattan singh bhangu talks about panj pyares previous lives of being known bhagats mentioned in sri guru granth sahib ji. Question then comes down to- is bhramgyan is state of mind which gets renewed every life through the efforts or one state which stays through out. I go for the latter view."

Does Panth Prakash or Suraj Prakash not also state that the Sahibzadey were Avatar of devtay like Shiva Ji, Brahma etc...

I don't personally have a problem, with any of the above, but we should be careful picking and choosing.

I don't normally pick and choose from the history but when pretty much all sants from different samparda's agree that panj pyares were bhagats which have their bani in sri guru granth sahib ji in their previous lives.. then its bit hard to ignore panj pyares previous lives.

1699 event was maharaj leela to transform giddars to babar sheer.

If kam veer and tsingh can comment on this topic, specially what they think about -

is bhramgyan is state of mind which gets renewed every life through the efforts or one state which stays through out ??

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is bhramgyan is state of mind which gets renewed every life through the efforts or one state which stays through out ??

Bhramgyan is not a state of mind. Once a Bhramgyani, always a Bhramgyani. We just need to look at the definitions of a Bhramgyani that are given in Gurbani e.g. Bhramgyani Aap Nirankaar etc.

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"What Guru Maharaj did in the tambu, is the Gurus mazza, his own divine kushi as ordained by Akal Purakh."

What Guru Ji asked the Panj Pyare, the 'root' of the Khalsa to do in the tambu, was probably a Puratan Chhatri coming of age rite. To any true Warrior community in the world, initiation into a Warrior brotherhood involves some sort of blood ritual, this is normal and has existed as a tradition in mankind for millenia. To any non-Sikh with a Warrior eduction, the content of the above Sakha would seem completely normal (re the chatka). Regarding why only the Panj Pyare were asked to do this, and not the on-going new Singhs is a good question. My take would be that the Panj Pyare being the Generals of the Khalsa and administrators of Khande de Pahul, needed to have Yodhvir Ras, so that it could be transfered to the amrit that the Khalsa Singhs would eventually take. IMHO, this is why I believe that Khande de Pahul were traditionally administered by Akali Nihangs, as they too would have most likely have undergone the complete Chhatri experience and would have been able to administer 'Shakti' as well as Bhagti to the Khalsa initiates.

As has been said by N30 Singh, today, the Panth seems to be short on Bhagti (although I am in no position to judge the avasta/kamai of any Panj Pyare today), I would also add, the Panth seems to be short on Shakti.

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There is the text by Bhai Jaito Ji who mentions that Guru Ji cut off the heads of the 5 Pyare. This view is held by the majority of Sampardas, some with links going back to the original Panj Pyare.

Anyway, this discussion should be about the topic at hand - which is about women in the Panj Pyare.

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The topic is relevant Moderator Sahib, in Sikh society, as per most other societies, Men (as a 1st option) take the role of Soldiers/Warriors (with exceptions of course). What I have tried to indirectly highlight is a practical reason/need for the Panj Pyare to be Masculine, rather than just saying 'because so and so Mahapurkh said so'.

As per old times, the Khalsa tradition of Chatka is carried out by Rehitvaan 'Singhs' only.

I don't agree with the big generalisations you sometimes make Matheen, you have hardly carried out a survey. Much kathaa I have heard over the years from different jathai kathaakars actually use the Tambu sakhi (which is used in more than one historic source). Although in other sources it doesn't say why chatka was carried out, and in some bakrai are not mentioned, leaving the actual episode in the tambu open to interpretation.

Edited by shaheediyan
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  • 3 years later...
  • 1 month later...

I am not disagreeing with you. I am not talking about just sanskar amrit but inner levels of amrit. Read my post above, it should be clear now.

There are lot of exceptions in maryada whether you like to admit it or not everyday, which is good because we are not sharia wahabi sullehs. Everyday there is an exception, singhs takes siri sahib off to take plane to singhani hairs being shaved in the delivery room to taking kachera off in time of bhog with your mrs to giving your jhoota food to homeless to our siri sahib touching our arse upon wiping your arse with an tissue. I can write an whole book on exceptions of maryada. Its perfectable normal, because there is a limit to those exceptions and kurahits in maryada are the limits. Those who fill up guilt in people's mind on small things/exceptions are themselves in sharia khand and will live and die in there just how karam kandis pandits live and die in dubta and throwing guilt trips at people to gain recruits or gain credibility.

I would suggest singh, do abhyaas of sri akaal ustat, you will see your surti rising from all this into realm of anand, free from karam kaand to even outer being of sikh which you are already to total inner being of not just sikh an label but one source of creation- atma-paratma.

If one sees all this from atma-paratma- all this is tamasha and block to get to akaal purkh.

Dear Veer Jee N30 Singh,

I can just say, a mature, a brilliant and a very complete answer from all points of views.

Congratulations.

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One wonders that, if a true warrior never cuts the head of a sister or daughter, how can the Guru?

The Nirankaar saroop Guru Sahib Ji, being the greatest warrior would have had to initiate the first Punj Pyare as men! In doing so, any susequent Punj representing them would also have to be men.

Just 2 cents (or pence/paisa)

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One wonders that, if a true warrior never cuts the head of a sister or daughter, how can the Guru?

The Nirankaar saroop Guru Sahib Ji, being the greatest warrior would have had to initiate the first Punj Pyare as men! In doing so, any susequent Punj representing them would also have to be men.

Just 2 cents (or pence/paisa)

brilliant point never thought of that.....there you go end of topic.

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  • 7 months later...

My personal opinion on this, is that the original five their gender does not matter. Amrit is beyond the phsyical realm.

There were only certain castes in the original five as well, and to use the argument that panj pyare MUST be emmulating the original five exactly, then using that argument, a jatt should also never act as panj pyare.

Then wehre do we stop? Were all five vegetarian? Were all five etc etc etc... see where this goes?

The whole idea of amrit was to bring everyone together on the SAME level as equals. The argument that there were no women in the original five is as valid as saying there were no jatts in the original five.

We have to realize that our souls are all equal. One must recognize the divine light within EVERYONE - only when one sees and recognizes this SAME divine light within everyone, will they understand. By separating people into groups of superiority based on gender, on caste etc. goes completely against what our Gurus taught.

So yes women can act as Panj Pyare... having a penis does not make someone somehow more spiritual or more qualified to bestow amrit on someone else. If a Sikh receives Amrit, and abides by the SRM then they should be able to bestow that same amrit on others. To say that one person can and another can not, is equal to saying that one person is somehow closer to God than the other... and is putting the other person in a lower light. It's the SAME amrit... our souls are the SAME... in fact we are ALL soul BRIDES. The original five... five SIKHS, five SOULS gave their heads... their gender is only transitory and their penises matter only in matters of reproduction on the physical plane.

The gender of the original five means no more than their caste did. Or else as I said no jatt would ever be able act as panj pyare either. All forms of discrimination were removed - caste, colour, etc. and yes even gender.

(Why does gender always seem to stand out as somehow being different than any other difference anyway?)

I realize many don't see it that way and I think it's because they can't see beyond the physical shells. We are told many times in SGGSJ that these bodies, they are nothing... they are only characters being played and when all the costumes are removed and the play is over - we see that it was the SAME actor who played ALL of them [God] - paraphrased from page 736 SGGSJ. If there really is only ONE, and that ONE is ALL... then how can we say any part of his creation is any less valuable or deserving than any other?

Also, just wanted to add... warriors having to be male is bunk... Mai Bhago is who I look up to, and my career is actually in the military (18 years now). I am trained in combat... small arms... etc. Women are stronger than men think. It's only the mindset of men who want to limit us. The strongest of opponents are not those who are brute muscles but those who use their mind and cunning to beat an opponent. Case in point, martial arts teaches how to use an opponents weight and strength against them. I have seen small girls beat larger guys because the larger guys are not as nimble etc. All men are not born with the warrior mentality and not all women are born with nurturing mentality. And both genders can learn both easily... it's only limitations imposed by society that lock gender into specific 'roles'. Case in point, I have never had the nurturing mentality at all... from childhood to now, nearly 40, I have always looked to military career, to lines of work that require stress, even my volunteer work as as a first responder. I have never been interested in traditional womens roles like cooking, cleaning, raising kids, knitting etc. Am I a male in a female body? (Perhaps I should go through gender transition surgery... maybe then I could act as Panj huh??)

Anyway, amrit has nothing to do with physical strength... it's entirely a spiritual initiation. And our souls are the SAME. In fact there is only ONE... we need to realize this fact that ALL is ONE. This separateness is illusion, and the more we think like this and create more separateness, then the further we get from becoming ONE.

Thinking in terms of gender superiority is EGO. btw AKJ allows women to do Panj Pyare seva...

And there are other groups who want to further limit women from even sitting behind SGGSJ. They will not allow women to participate in akhand paath, or do kirtan either. (DDT) And they quote the same arguments. The mentality spreads further... into other restrictions, women are not 'allowed' to do at Sri Darbar Sahib etc. An Amritdhari Bibi friend of mine, once tried to do some seva at Darbar Sahib and was stopped by a Singh who approached her husband, not her... and told him 'Control your Singhni' - as if she was not even a human worthy of actual interaction. This is what happens when one gender dominates the other... and this thinking is EGO.

Also regarding the original five I quoted this from another site but it makes sense... "From that conversation we worked out a plausible way out of this direct challenge by pointing out the folklore and history that as many as 80,000 people may have gathered at Anandpur in 1699 when Guru Gobind Singh, the Tenth master, with a naked sword in hand, issued a call for a head. Can you imagine the consternation; surely there were no PA systems and microphones at hand over 300 years ago. If this crowd had to be fed who do you think were cooking and feeding the assembly if not the women? And if there were small children who were they clambering on if not their mothers? In the Indian culture at that time, and even today, when people sit on the floor in large assemblies men and women are somewhat segregated. It is likely that the women perhaps never even heard the call."

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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There were only certain castes in the original five as well, and to use the argument that panj pyare MUST be emmulating the original five exactly, then using that argument, a jatt should also never act as panj pyare.

The whole idea of amrit was to bring everyone together on the SAME level as equals. The argument that there were no women in the original five is as valid as saying there were no jatts in the original five.

The gender of the original five means no more than their caste did. Or else as I said no jatt would ever be able act as panj pyare either. All forms of discrimination were removed - caste, colour, etc. and yes even gender.

Bhenji, I don't know where you got your info from, but there was a Jatt in the original 5 Pyare, Pyara Dharam Das.

This is an argument which hasn't really affected the Panth, in the way it has affected the Anglicans. Personally, I am not in favour of discussing this subject, as there are far more pressing needs that need addressing in the Panth today, but, as times change, so do people's attitudes. Maybe this is one for a future Sarbat Khalsa to address.

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Also regarding the original five I quoted this from another site but it makes sense... "From that conversation we worked out a plausible way out of this direct challenge by pointing out the folklore and history that as many as 80,000 people may have gathered at Anandpur in 1699 when Guru Gobind Singh, the Tenth master, with a naked sword in hand, issued a call for a head. Can you imagine the consternation; surely there were no PA systems and microphones at hand over 300 years ago. If this crowd had to be fed who do you think were cooking and feeding the assembly if not the women? And if there were small children who were they clambering on if not their mothers? In the Indian culture at that time, and even today, when people sit on the floor in large assemblies men and women are somewhat segregated. It is likely that the women perhaps never even heard the call."

Clutching at straws(as we say in the UK).

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This is an argument which hasn't really affected the Panth, in the way it has affected the Anglicans. Personally, I am not in favour of discussing this subject, as there are far more pressing needs that need addressing in the Panth today

Pretty much this.

Satkirin

We know there is a tradition of male Panj Pyarey doing amrit sanchaar. For whatever reason that is the tradition. Women and men in India "see beyond the physical shell" and they see 5 souls and they see a tradition. They respect that, take amrit and move on.

Then there are those who "can't see beyond the physical shells" and can't get over the fact that it's an established tradition. If they really "see beyond the physical shell" then they shouldn't be concerned with who is giving them amrit. They should respect the tradition and move on to more important matters such as their spiritual growth.

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And you hit the nail on the head... tradition is not the same as saying that women can not do it... it just means 'this is how it's been so why change it' Usually the men are the ones who never see an issue... they would think differently if they were the ones being restricted in some way.

I actually plan on taking Amrit from AKJ however... and AKJ does in fact, practice full equality. Hence why women also are required to tie keskis.

I agree its not a huge issue in the grand scheme... however to say that Sikhi practises full equality of gender, when there are restrictions placed on women that men never have to worry about. It does make women feel somehow 'less than' when they can not participate fully. A man would never understand the feeling unless they were told they were 'not allowed' to do something simply for being born a male. To understand that it is tradition and in no way was something that was intended by Waheguru Ji helps... i.e.: it's men who are dictating that tradition. But still for someone like me who dedicated a huge part of my life to military etc. it still stings to be told that I don't have the right parts to ever participate as Panj Pyare... (unless of course I do so thru AKJ) and I can't help feel that it means I am somehow less qualified spiritually etc. It feels like it's somehow stating that women "require" men just to advance spiritually because we are somehow lacking on our own... but since men can receive amrit from men, they do not need us. Certainly you can at least imagine how it makes us feel well.... like it's saying we are not good enough?

In general however, and in actual teaching Sikhi is by far more egalitarian than Catholicism which I grew up in! My local Gurdwara had an all female management committee twice now :) And it's usually a woman who does Ardas here, and hukam is about half and half... half the time a man and half the time a woman. And kirtan is also done by mostly women here... so I fully acknowledge that...

Pretty much this.

Satkirin

We know there is a tradition of male Panj Pyarey doing amrit sanchaar. For whatever reason that is the tradition. Women and men in India "see beyond the physical shell" and they see 5 souls and they see a tradition. They respect that, take amrit and move on.

Then there are those who "can't see beyond the physical shells" and can't get over the fact that it's an established tradition. If they really "see beyond the physical shell" then they shouldn't be concerned with who is giving them amrit. They should respect the tradition and move on to more important matters such as their spiritual growth.

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I actually plan on taking Amrit from AKJ however... and AKJ does in fact, practice full equality. Hence why women also are required to tie keskis.

no expert on the akj but Im not aware that they have any such practice.

I agree its not a huge issue in the grand scheme... however to say that Sikhi practises full equality of gender, when there are restrictions placed on women that men never have to worry about. It does make women feel somehow 'less than' when they can not participate fully.

There will never be equality between the sexes as this is Waheguru's hukam. However the equality in Gurmat is primarily spiritual equality, whereas other religions practise that women can never attain heaven/mukti/sachkhand, Guru Ji said they can.

Are you aware that some Sikhs have said that during the 4 lavan, the man should lead for 2 and the woman should lead for 2 rounds?

I don't really wish to dampen your enthusiasm for this but I would ask you to be realistic. It's not going to happen in the next 10 years, so why focus on some shortage in the panth, where you can make a difference, in that time?

Our Panth has some incredibly serious issues going on.

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No women cannot be one of the 5 pyare watch this clip it will tell you why.

maryada is maryada , anything besides that and talk is manmatt ,

sant jarnail singh ji said the truth panj pyaare can only be Men , as sant ji explained in above video

but people still try to use manmat

do you sitll think there were no great women?

there were fierce warriors as mai bhago

the avatar of adh shakti Mata Sahib kaur ji

did they ever question ? No

everyone followed maryada

mata sahib kaur ji could wipe this earth clean with a single blow of air from her mouth , she was no ordinary woman

and there are still singhnies as strong as mai bhago but they're gupt

theres one in nanded

she is 6 feet tall and farla dhari

and carried a lot of weapons around, but none has ever opposed maryada

Edited by savinderpalsingh
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Our Panth has some incredibly serious issues going on.

It's usually men who downplay the seriousness of women's plight... it's easy to do when it doesn't affect them. I am aware of most of the issues, and hope to help wherever and whenever I can.

Yes AKJ do and have had women as Panj Pyare... I know an AKJ Singhni who did so in California and its not rare either. In fact, I think I even have a photo of it kicking around somewhere.... AKJ practice full equality... which is why women are required to wear keskis as well. They say there should be no difference in reheat maryada between men and women and so women are also required to wear keski (and they also see keski not kesh as the kakkar). I happen to agree with their reasoning actually.... Which is why I am tempted to take Amrit with AKJ but I don't know if I will be able to as I am doing it in Srinagar, Kashmir.

For that matter I think my local Gurdwara also would allow women - it's just that here we are hard pressed to even have six Amritdhari at any given time to do it. (I will be one of only a small number of Amritdhari in my local Gurdwara as most are not) We have only held it once here - this past Spring because we had Samagam here and had people from away who were able to put it together. Else, we have to travel at least to Toronto or Vancouver to do it.

I also believe the SRM actually states that Panj Pyare can be any baptized Sikh. In fact it directly states that women CAN. Quoted directly from SGPC website:

"Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation

Article XXIV

a. Ambrosial baptism should be held at an exclusive place away from common human traffic.

b. At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair."

link:

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

^^^Should not this be the final authority on it? Different Sants come and go and may agree or even disagree with each other on different aspects of Sikhi ....But isn't the SRM what we are actually AGREEING to abide by when we take Amrit? In that case, by not allowing women, isn't that actually going AGAINST the SRM?

When I just looked up AKJ, they state they do in fact support and fully follow the SGPC SRM, with only a few tiny differences involving the keski. (which does not go against SRM only adds to it) SO that is why they allow women to act as Panj Pyare.

(you keep referring to Bindrinwale - so he was DDT and they use a different rehet maryada I believe?) But Akal Takht and SGPC state the official Rehet Maryada is the SRM which I quoted above. So maryada does in fact state that women CAN.

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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