Jump to content

Devi Pargat By Guru Gobind Singh?


Kaljug

Recommended Posts

I think you are misinterpreting what i have stated and suggest you read it again - i have not stated that Guru Ji needed Chandi's help instead only out of maryada did he acknowledge her as Baba Santa Singh Ji has stated...... Guru Gobind Singh only worshipped Sri Akaal i believe this, i also believe that Chandi is Mata Sahib Kaur mother of the Khalsa

BAAD BIBAAD KAHO SU NA KIJEH RASNA RAAM RASAEN PEEJEH (SGGS)

Don't engage in arguments instead spend your time in repeating Gods name

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i have not stated that Guru Ji needed Chandi's help instead only out of maryada did he acknowledge her as Baba Santa Singh Ji has stated

Out of interest, what maryada do you think dasmesh pita was following, that involved this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest, I am beginning to wonder whether some Singhs like the author of Suraj Prakash Granth believed that, like the archetypal Warrior King of Indian religious tradition, Arjun, Dasmesh Pita did Pargat of Devi because it gives the Khalsa Panth a mythological and magical beginning and explains Sikh victory over insurmountable odds. However, I do like Pal 07's explanation.

Another thing. How comes faujan of quoms who have nothing to do with the 'goddess of war' have better fighters/soldiers than those that make serious efforts to satiate her?

Because Faujan naturally do puja of the "Goddess of War" by training for and engaging in war itself. That's why weapons are worshipped as being the real Goddess of War in Shastar Nam Mala and other Dasam Bania. Shastar Puja for Sikhs is more than just waving some incense sticks around a tulwar - without knowing how to use the weapon one is doing puja of, one is just performing idol worship.

K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The story makes no sense at all. Many Mahapurkh have clarified what really happened at Naina Devi - it was a test for the pandit, who ran away anyway.

Gurbani tells us that all the devi-devte are sewadars of the Guru, yet you believe that Guru Sahib had to perform a havan and seek her blessings?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

shaheediyan i cant read your post cuz i dont have gurbani fonts could i requset you post again.

I would like to add to my post cuz i asked one of my mates who is a vidvaan of sarbloh prakash (he is 60 years old) - he states there are many durgas standing at the door of Sri Akaal there is not just one and that there is also a sakhi of Nihangs asking to have darshan of Chandi and mahraaj says "singh's you won't be able to handle her pratap" but the Nihangs insist on having her darshan and then the singhs get blown away by just the great light alone.

I would also like to state once more than Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Could do anything they want as they are full of all powers and were mahakaal themselves - all sur and asur are laying prostrate at the feet of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji asking maharaaj for any seva they can do - infact the 4 shabzadeh of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji are no other than incarnations of indra, brahma, shiv and visnu who wanted to take part in the Dharam Yudh.

In response to kaljugs post:

Take away Suraj Prakash Granth and you take away 80% of sikh history....

I am suprised how he could make this comment as he is very knowledged

He also writes "Dasmesh Pita did Pargat of Devi because it gives the Khalsa Panth a mythological and magical beginning and explains Sikh victory over insurmountable odds" again this is like a lot of people on this forum who come to there own conclusions without reading what has been written. I have never stated this in any of my posts

I would request people to not make assumptions and to broaden there minds and make educated/informative posts rather than unfounded and ill though comments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great posts by Pal 07, really great.

Matheen, if you ever have a chance to get the blessed darshan of Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji, student of Giani Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, you should ask him about this sakhi.

When I met Giani Ji I too was confused about this subject. I asked him about the nature of Chandi/Adi Shakti etc. He quoted the philosophy expanded in Gurpratap Suraj Granth saying that the Devi gave the Khalsa their Karad (kirpan).

Many vidvaans and mahapursh still believe in the sakhi told in Gurpratap Suraj Granth and also in Gurbilas Patshahi 10.

To add note to a comment made in Pal 07's post:

i also believe that Chandi is Mata Sahib Kaur mother of the Khalsa

This is the traditional understanding in the Nihang Dals and in puratan itihaas (history). It is also why Mata Sahib Kaur's real name, before Singh Sabha intervention, was Mata Sahib Devi/Devan. If you go to Hazur Sahib, there is a Gurdrawa near the Takht which is called Mata Sahib DEVAN Gurdrawa. It is where Mata ji did her tapasya in a previous jug as Chandi I believe. Nihangs are the caretakers of this Gurdrawa.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because Faujan naturally do puja of the "Goddess of War" by training for and engaging in war itself. That's why weapons are worshipped as being the real Goddess of War in Shastar Nam Mala and other Dasam Bania. Shastar Puja for Sikhs is more than just waving some incense sticks around a tulwar - without knowing how to use the weapon one is doing puja of, one is just performing idol worship.

So fact on the ground is that a fauj that is unaware of and unconcerned with the 'goddess of war' and by this I mean Chandi as in the deity, can be better than one which acknowledges her and performs rituals for her in order to gain her support?

If that is true it begs the question of whether any fauj should really bother with the deity and not just get on with hardcore military training without any ritualism attached to it? Given the evidence clearly supports the stronger power of the non Chandi acknowledgers, maybe nihungs and even Sikhs in general could learn from this?

Edited by dalsingh101
Link to comment
Share on other sites

dalsingh101, with all respect i feel you are continuously making posts that are just completely irrelevant and make no sense and are never backed up with any real evidence or citations. This is your second one in this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PAL

With all due respect maybe you are struggling to grasp what I am saying. Let me try again.

The last post I made was regarding the actual efficacy of chandi (the deity) in aiding ANY fauj's military capability. I'll cut to the quick, my point was that forces that have nothing to do with her (i.e. the SAS, US Marines) are infinitely stronger then those that do try to keep her onside. How do you explain that? You talk of backing up my points, I'm backing this one with reality not mythology.

And please don't get upset because I may not believe what you do. I don't think the question of dasmesh pita involving Chandhi at the creation of the Khalsa is a minor one.

Edited by dalsingh101
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matheen, if you ever have a chance to get the blessed darshan of Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji, student of Giani Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, you should ask him about this sakhi.

Gyani Gurdev Singh Ji, who was also a student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, is the one who told me that the devi wasn't made pargat at Naina Devi. There was a pundit there who thought he could trick Guru Sahib and make a profit, like he used to with the locals. So he told Guru Sahib to give him all the supplies to perform a massive havan so that he could get the Devi on to their side. Rather than give the supplies and leave, Guru Sahib stayed, much to the dislike of the Pundit. To cut a long story short, Guru Sahib supplied everything that was asked for but of course no devi appeared. On the last day, out of despair, the pandit said that a holy person needs to be sacrificed to please the devi before she appears. Guru Ji said, 'no problem, who is holier than you?' and the pundit legged it. Guru Sahib laughed and they came down from the mountain.

Gyani Ji says that was how Sant Ji explained the episode while doing katha. Baki Rabb Janne.

I agree that Mata Sahib Devan is correct.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dalsingh your reasoning is flawed anyway

China is a communist (non-theist state) but have probably the largest army in the world not to mention great affluence. so if they get these power without awknowledging God Himself on any official level, by your reasoning worship of God is also redundant for an army.

Appeal to Chandi was a dharmic occurance.

Edited by navjot2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So fact on the ground is that a fauj that is unaware of and unconcerned with the

If that is true it begs the question of whether any fauj should really bother with the deity and not just get on with hardcore military training without any ritualism attached to it? Given the evidence clearly supports the stronger power of the non Chandi acknowledgers, maybe nihungs and even Sikhs in general could learn from this?

whilst Chandi veneration was in Panjab''s fauji it was the strongest state in India and British had to win it by political machinations and not might.

then they decided 'oh we dont do this 'Hindu things'' and started worshipping British instead.

inbetween Singhs went from being respected even by their enemies to being widely considered a joke.

Edited by navjot2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

an army that puts aside any Dharmic consideration and merely goes in for military training is liable to egotisitical corruption

the Dharmic part instills in them what they are fighting for, how to behave, and whose support they can rely on.

as someone said earlier that Guru ji was actually awknowledging Chandi and giving her due respect, and mentioned Krishna doing same thing. hence the formal ceremony. this does not mean he was gong bak on his priciple of woshipping only Akaal. In Dasam Bani it explains who Bhavani (Devi) is in relation to Akaal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sikhs consider chandi as kirpan and do not venerate any physical entity.Especially when Dasam Granth is very clear on this.Go by the scripture and not by stray opinions.

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥

तै ही दुरगा साजि कै दैता दा नासु कराइआ ॥

O Lord! By creating Durga, Thou hast caused the destruction of demons.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

तैथों ही बलु राम लै नाल बाणा दहसिरु घाइआ ॥

Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows.

ਚੰਡੀ ਰਾਕਸਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਵਾਹੀ ਦੈਤ ਨੂੰ ॥

चंडी राकसि खाणी वाही दैत नूं ॥

She struck the demon with that Chandi, the devourer of demons (that is the sword).

ਕੋਪਰ ਚੂਰਿ ਚਵਾਣੀ ਲੱਥੀ ਕਰਗ ਲੈ ॥

कोपर चूरि चवाणी ल्थी करग लै ॥

Then

ਲਈ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦੁਰਗਸਾਹਿ ਵਰਜਾਗਣਿ ਭਾਰੀ ॥

लई भगउती दुरगसाहि वरजागणि भारी ॥

Durga held out her sword, appearing like great lustrous fire;

ਲਾਈ ਰਾਜੇ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਐ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥

लाई राजे सु्मभ नो रतु पीऐ पिआरी ॥

She struck it on the king Sumbh and this lovely weapon drinks blood.

It broke the skull and face into pieces and pierced through the skeleton.

Chandi Di vaar, Dasam Granth

Edited by singh2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

whilst Chandi veneration was in Panjab it was the strongest state in India and British had to win it by political machinations and not might.

That betrays a really poor understanding of what happened at ground level in the Sikh-WASP wars. The outcome was decided on the battlefield in the end. Besides, it isn't Chandi worship or blessings that swings wars. Open your eyes and have a look at the yudh going on on our doorstep involving sullay and WASP wallay, whoever wins won't have anything to owe to Chandi. You're just mythologising the world of war. Reminds me a bit of those pandits Guru Nanak said were claiming their magic/divine blessings would blind the Moghuls when Babur invaded.

What about Rajputs who venerate Chandi even now, they aren't any super elite crack soldiers are they. It is exactly this type of thinking and reliance that has weakened Singhs militarily and psychologically.

then the decided 'oh we dont do this 'Hindu things'' and started worshipping British instead.

I concur, some of this seems to have happened. Brits always patronise the cronies and always try and destroy the truly independent and brave when they can. It is a strong feature of their society.

inbetween Singhs went from being respected even by their enemies to being considered a joke by even sikhs themselves. At least Nihunds meaintained their dignity.

That's what happens when you hide behinds 'metaphysics' and symbolism. Turning real life faujs into symbolic ones. Turning kirpans into symbols instead of real shasters. Burying your head in the sand to advances in military technology and tactics/strategies to win wars over satiating deities. Sikhs turned themselves into a joke by doing this. I've said before, as much as I love them, I don't see Nihungs at the forefront of developing a strong truly Sikh capable military force in the context of the world we inhabit today, as much as they contribute in other ways.

China is a communist (non-theist state) but have probably the largest army in the world not to mention great affluence. so if they get these power without awknowledging God Himself on any official level, by your reasoning worship of God is also redundant for an army.

Appeal to Chandi was a dharmic occurance.

And what happened to all of the teachings of having sole faith in the one formless, ajuun Waheguru as the centre of the Sikh dharmic panth in all of this? You answered my question with the above by the way, having a strong army has nothing to do with Chandi. Full stop. It is mainly dependent on training, preparation, military understanding. However, doing good with an assembled army (the dharam component) involves a mixture of ground level belief and conviction, matched by acting on those beliefs as well as the characteristics of those leading the force (i.e. deciding whether to act aggresively or defensively). You talk as if a Sikh fauj would be somehow missing in dharam without Chandi's blessing? Is that what you believe?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The last post I made was regarding the actual efficacy of chandi (the deity) in aiding ANY fauj's military capability. I'll cut to the quick, my point was that forces that have nothing to do with her (i.e. the SAS, US Marines) are infinitely stronger then those that do try to keep her onside. How do you explain that? You talk of backing up my points, I'm backing this one with reality not mythology.

Chandi represents the mythological ideal of a just war to defend virtue, not just technological and tactical superiority on the battlefield. It's a pretty important concept for those whom war against adharam was a religious duty and not just a job, because it acts as a preventative to things which might otherwise be done on the battlefield by a fauji in a state of bloodlust or by those looking for a quick and decisive victory with no consideration for right and compassion.

I don't think anyone except perhaps the regular closet Hindus on this forum are going to be suggesting some kind of engagement in devi worship.

K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In response to kaljugs post:

Take away Suraj Prakash Granth and you take away 80% of sikh history....

I am suprised how he could make this comment as he is very knowledged

He also writes "Dasmesh Pita did Pargat of Devi because it gives the Khalsa Panth a mythological and magical beginning and explains Sikh victory over insurmountable odds" again this is like a lot of people on this forum who come to there own conclusions without reading what has been written. I have never stated this in any of my posts

I would request people to not make assumptions and to broaden there minds and make educated/informative posts rather than unfounded and ill though comments.

Veer ji, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I don't suggest abandoning our historical granths, I merely propose putting them all side by side and determining where they agree and disagree with each other, and then comparing recorded history with the bachans of our Gurus as recorded in Gurbani.

It's a fact that the earlist historical source Sri Gur Sobha does not mention this havan of Chandi and, according to the views of many, such a ritual is not in accord with Gurbani. However, I am still all for attempting to understand why later Sikhs would have believed that this event actually took place.

The sentence of mine that you quote is my current personal belief based upon my understanding. It was not meant to somehow summarise your views.

I hope you continue to post often here, Singh.

K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...