Devi Pargat By Guru Gobind Singh?

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

The Devi is a symbolic representation of an impersonal or trans-personal force. What you call metaphysics, symbolism and myth is something that should not be seperable from everyday life. The purpose of worshipping weapons is to sanctify them, in order that they be used in harmony with the one reality. Durga or the Devi is a means by which a war and weapons can be sanctified and brought into harmony with cosmic and dharmic principles. Without this 'metaphysics and symbolism' than any war or weapon becomes a tool of the personal ego and not in harmony with surrounding environment and the cosmos. First a war if it is to be fought dharmically must be authorised from 'above' it has to be in harmony with universal principles. One way of harmonising yudh is through propitating the Devi who is assigned by Akaal for this specific duty. The Gurus never dis-believed in the Devas and Devis but emphasised that the one reality supports them and pulls their strings.

This is why it is not possible to fight a dharmic yudh in this day and age because there is no way of harmonising the weapons of mass destruction we possess to the one reality, there is no metaphysic in place that enables these weapons to be sanctified, to be dharmic.

[shaheediyan]

Even the sanctification of the weapons is useless if the 'cause' is not dharmic. This is the real underlying issue today, battles on nearly all levels are adharmic.

When the cause becomes dharmic, then all else will follow... Guru will reveal and eternal traditions (whatever there on-going manifestation) will prevail.

[dalsingh101]

Of course Singhs involvement in yudhs need to be dharmic. I thought this concept is better and more clearly encapsulated and illustrated in the sant-sipahi concept rather than Chandi myself.

[jvalasingh]

Gyani Gurdev Singh Ji, who was also a student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, is the one who told me that the devi wasn't made pargat at Naina Devi. There was a pundit there who thought he could trick Guru Sahib and make a profit, like he used to with the locals. So he told Guru Sahib to give him all the supplies to perform a massive havan so that he could get the Devi on to their side. Rather than give the supplies and leave, Guru Sahib stayed, much to the dislike of the Pundit. To cut a long story short, Guru Sahib supplied everything that was asked for but of course no devi appeared. On the last day, out of despair, the pandit said that a holy person needs to be sacrificed to please the devi before she appears. Guru Ji said, 'no problem, who is holier than you?' and the pundit legged it. Guru Sahib laughed and they came down from the mountain.

Gyani Ji says that was how Sant Ji explained the episode while doing katha. Baki Rabb Janne.

I agree that Mata Sahib Devan is correct.

I guess different Mahapursh have different ways of looking at sakhis, based on their experience or knowledge.

[shaheediyan]

dalsingh, as a start, have you done the various paaths of Chandi in Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib?

Maybe once you do, and do vichaar on there meaning and inclusion in Gurbani, you will be able to answer your own question.

Chandi is Vahegurus 'Sipahi'. On the battlefield - there should be no distinction between Chandi and a Khalsa. More than anything, we are talking about the understanding of duty and true/pure belief that you are serving dharma, not to mention the indominatable nature/spirit of Chandi and her ability to annihilate adharmic forces (on a personal level, it's not the outcome that matters, but rather,ones personal actions).

As an example, looking at it from a 3rd party view, Baba Jarnail Singh lost the fight. But looking at it from a birds eye view, we see this is far from true...

As always, positive change needs blood to nourish its roots... this can also be seen as a metaphor for Chandis need for a sacrifice in order to give victory (in the subtle.higher sense).

[shaheediyan]

This is not about believing in and worshipping an 8ft lady with 8 arms... it's about understanding the true nature/purpose/role of Chandi.

[shaheediyan]

"I guess different Mahapursh have different ways of looking at sakhis, based on their experience or knowledge."

They are refering to different ithihaasik sources. Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji were extremely well read, they would have made their vidyaarthis aware of different versions and the asociated sources.

It's up to people, as it always has been, to believe in what version they like, more important is making correct sense of the chosen version.

[dalsingh101]

dalsingh, as a start, have you done the various paaths of Chandi in Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib?

Maybe once you do, and do vichaar on there meaning and inclusion in Gurbani, you will be able to answer your own question.

Chandi is Vahegurus 'Sipahi'. On the battlefield - there should be no distinction between Chandi and a Khalsa. More than anything, we are talking about the understanding of duty and true/pure belief that you are serving dharma, not to mention the indominatable nature/spirit of Chandi and her ability to annihilate adharmic forces (on a personal level, it's not the outcome that matters, but rather,ones personal actions).

As an example, looking at it from a 3rd party view, Baba Jarnail Singh lost the fight. But looking at it from a birds eye view, we see this is far from true...

As always, positive change needs blood to nourish its roots... this can also be seen as a metaphor for Chandis need for a sacrifice in order to give victory (in the subtle.higher sense).

This makes sense, the problem lies in people emphasising the container/vehicle rather than the important underlying concept. My first exposure to the Chandi story (as a kid) was in the form Matheen mentioned. In the sakhi I was told, after the unsuccessful hom, Guru Gobind Singh withdrew his sword and exclaimed something like "This is the true arbiter of destiny" another one I heard has him saying "This is the true goddess of war".

Thing with the mythologic expositions is that many simple Singhs get lost in the myth, missing the important message entirely. What you are telling me Chandi represents can be figured out through Sikh theology and history without Chandi if wanted.

Edited January 6, 2010 by dalsingh101

[shaheediyan]

"What you are telling me Chandi represents can be figured out through Sikh theology and history without Chandi if wanted."

Except that Guru Gobind Singh decided to represent that which Chandi represents... through using 'Chandi'.

That's good enough for me, no need to reinvent the wheel.

[dalsingh101]

Our lot seemed to get lost in trying to grasp and act on the important underlying principles and instead start mentally prancing around in the land of unicorns and magic fairies, going completely off point and leaving us in a weakened state.

If dasmesh pita used the imagery from Markandeya purana to make points, fine, but 3 centuries later we can deseminate the core ideas in other ways too. You don't need to go into elaborate explanations involving Chandi when trying to explain important military matters and ethics to Sikh youth today. Chandi/Durga is a a part of our heritage, which is cool. But hiding behind this goddess of war in the face of the modern military world is just a cop out brother. We should be running with and extrapolating those ideas. The fact that we haven't has contributed to the destruction of most of our sipahi muscle. This has to change sooner than later.

[Guest]

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[Kam1825]

Singh can you not put it on a 4shared drive so everone can have acces. It is free as well

[Guest]

Guys, thanks for your response on this, file is too big for email, here is the download link which was shared by vijaydeepsingh- https://rcpt.yousendit.com/799250162/3b45c9314a521f97536b252f2038ac47

Please hurry, because these links gets expired after seven days.

Enjoy..!!

[Kam1825]

Neo only issue with the book is that thereare loads of pages missing. the pages missing are 01 - 11, 44 - 65, 81 - 83 and 90 onwards. ny chance of getting them up

[dalsingh101]

Can't believe Win7 doesn't have a built in decompressor for rar files! What are you guys using to open the file? Shall I just download WinZip? This is unbelievable.....

[dalsingh101]

Ignore above, downloaded winrar.

[ishvar2]

7zip is the best. Handles both zips and rars from context menu (right click - extract to).

[dalsingh101]

7zip is the best. Handles both zips and rars from context menu (right click - extract to).

Damn me and my stupid decision.......always the wrong choice......lol

[Free Radical]

the member free radical dunno the slightist thing about sikhism and what he has written is complete rubbish.

Great topic my views are thus:-

In recent times i doubt there was a greater scholar than Baba Santa Singh, particularly of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's sacred writings

and i would agree with him that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj did pargat of devi. The reason is thus; chandi is a sevadaar of the khalsa Panth - she used to sweep up in the house of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and recieve blessings which she would then pass on to her followers.(Gurpratap Suraj Prakash Granth)

Durga is the Godess of Dharam Yudh and only as per maryada did Guru Ji pargat Devi and tell her to shower her blessings over the khalsa Panth so that it may be victorious. The same event occured in mahabharat just before the final dharam yudh by the pandavas, Krishna instructed Arjuna to seek the blessing of chandi so that there dharam yudh may not fail. When chandi appeared she said that her blessing was not neccessary as krishna himself has all the blessings within him since he is righteous and the yug avtar. Krishna only told Arjuna to do this as per maryada of a warrior before war to acknowledge the godess of war(shatree maryada).

It is God who created Durga and gave her the duty of instigating righteous wars this is the ultimate reality, but Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj has only acknowledged her and has taken courtesy towards her. Its exactly the same as Raagmala Guru Maharaaj used Raags in the formation of Adi Guru Granth Sahib and at the end wrote raagmala so as to show courtesy towards them otherwise they would have been akirtghan. The Gurus used Raags and showed respect towards them this is not wrong in any way.

Upon Avtaar of Sri Gur

I humbly ask forgiveness from the members who are viewing this, as I wish to address a small matter.

just because my post doesn't reflect your views they are automatically classed as "rubbish" and how dare you insult me by saying I don't have the slightest clue what Sikhi is. Actually you are right, I don't have a clue what Sikhi is, hence why I signed up to this forum, as I found it to be probably the only one where members were concerned about Sikhi, where they talked with backed up scriptural proof and not "oh I heard this baba say this".

so is this how you help your fellow sikhs, insult them, shut them up, force your version of "Sikhism" on them? This is how you put people off Sikhism, not how you bring them in, educate them, help them.

instead of insulting newcomers, maybe you should provide an explaination/answer to my questions?

I don't believe that I disrespected anybody by asking the questions that I asked. I just don't believe that SatGuru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj would call upon a Devi to bless the Khalsa, why is that you may wonder, because SatGuru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj knew that all the Khalsa needed was the blessings of Vaheguru. Further to that would it not have been a blessing in itself to have SatGuru Ji fighting along side the Khalsa, do you believe that the Khalsa at that time (today is a different story) needed encouragement from a Devi, would they have not got it from Mahabali SatGuru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj? I can go on and on, but being the enlightened individual that you are, knowledgable in every aspect of Sikh theology, of Sikh history, etc, You know what I am saying, given that knowing you, its all rubbish.

and then you quote SatGuru Granth Sahib Ji in a later post, which was the most disturbing part.

I maybe wrong, I maybe right, only Sri Sri Sri Vaheguru Ji, Sri Akaal Ji knows the real truth. I believe this much that the system, yes the System of Sikhi which SatGuru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj revealed to the world is a logical system, a simple path of how the true self is realised and how the true self, Joot Saroop, the never dying, genderless, Light that which is our TRUE SELF, SatGuru Nanak Dev Ji revealed how we can obtain a permanent connection with the Lord of Supreme Light, Vaheguru, whilst being alive, not dead, but while we are alive, what we call Jeevan Mukht and how we then merge back into the Supreme Light and become whole again.

I believe that the secret which was held back from the masses, which kept them in the darkness of who they truely are and how they can "go back home", this was revealed by SatGuru Ji, this is why I believe the Khalsa Panth has been under attack since the times of SatGuru Nanak Dev Ji, right upto now.

I maybe wrong, this is what I have understood from SatGuru Granth Sahib Ji, after reading Gurbani over the past 7 years.

What you have explained doesn't fall in line with the great character of SatGuru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and the Khalsa Panth which SatGuru Ji created to serve humanity.

I maybe wrong, only Vaheguru and a few learned brothers and sisters here know.

I humbly appologise again, please continue with the discussion.

I won't be taking part in this forum anymore, can the administrators please disable my account this is my last request.

Please forgive me if I have offended anybody, it was not my intention to do so. I am very very, deeply sorry.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Xylitol]

don't be so sensitive, people disagree all the time. stick around andsee what u can learn ji.

[dalsingh101]

Ditto.

Don't flee at the first sign of some conflict. That is what's best about this forum, people can disagree without bans flying around. Get used to the cut and thrust.

[ishvar2]

Free radical - please stick around.

I doubt there is anyone on this forum who has the exact 100% same views as someone else.

We disagree quite vehemently from time to time but sometimes this discussion reveals progression and opening of understanding but we all (ok most of us) have the right interest at heart - our love of Vaheguru, the Gurus, Gurbani, bhagti etc.

Edited January 10, 2010 by ishvar2

[ishvar2]

Damn me and my stupid decision.......always the wrong choice......lol

Not at all veer ji. Winrar is fine.

[amritkhalsa]

the member free radical dunno the slightist thing about sikhism and what he has written is complete rubbish.

Great topic my views are thus:-

In recent times i doubt there was a greater scholar than Baba Santa Singh, particularly of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's sacred writings

and i would agree with him that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj did pargat of devi. The reason is thus; chandi is a sevadaar of the khalsa Panth - she used to sweep up in the house of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and recieve blessings which she would then pass on to her followers.(Gurpratap Suraj Prakash Granth)

Durga is the Godess of Dharam Yudh and only as per maryada did Guru Ji pargat Devi and tell her to shower her blessings over the khalsa Panth so that it may be victorious. The same event occured in mahabharat just before the final dharam yudh by the pandavas, Krishna instructed Arjuna to seek the blessing of chandi so that there dharam yudh may not fail. When chandi appeared she said that her blessing was not neccessary as krishna himself has all the blessings within him since he is righteous and the yug avtar. Krishna only told Arjuna to do this as per maryada of a warrior before war to acknowledge the godess of war(shatree maryada).

It is God who created Durga and gave her the duty of instigating righteous wars this is the ultimate reality, but Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaaj has only acknowledged her and has taken courtesy towards her. Its exactly the same as Raagmala Guru Maharaaj used Raags in the formation of Adi Guru Granth Sahib and at the end wrote raagmala so as to show courtesy towards them otherwise they would have been akirtghan. The Gurus used Raags and showed respect towards them this is not wrong in any way.

Upon Avtaar of Sri Gur

I thought that Nirmal Panth (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) is the same as Khalsa panth (Guru Gobind Singh Ji). Since the Gurus are from the same Joytt then does that mean Guru Nanak Dev · Guru Angad Dev · Guru Amar Das · Guru Ram Das · Guru Arjan Dev · Guru Har Gobind · Guru Har Rai · Guru Har Krishan · Guru Tegh Bahadur did pargat of a Devi. I dont believe any Guru Ji did Pargat of a Devi before going on a yudh. That would mean Guru Hargobind Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Did pargat of a Devi when they went to war, i find that highly unlikely. Guru Gobind Singh Ji thaught the same principles as the 9 other Gurus before him, that there is no need to do a pargat of a Devi only Akaal Purkh.

[Kam1825]

That would mean Guru Hargobind Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Did pargat of a Devi when they went to war

That is a very good point to note. I personally have no belief that Guru Ji did aradhna of the devi for her to become pargat prior to the birth of the khalsa or yudh. They are full belief in akaal purkh and state 'Tehee Durga Saaj Kai Danta Da Naas Karaiya'!

Why would Guru Ji need to do this when their form was of Akaal purkh what is the need of any being when you are superior int he first place. (Aap narayan Kaladhar Jag Mai Parvariyo)

I think this concept is only accepted by the nihang samparda as everyone i have spoken to from the four other sampardas do not accept this notion as all!