dalsingh101 Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 My interest in the links between Chandhi in Dasam Granth and MP is academic. I would just like to know exactly how they differ to gain some insight into the whole debate. I don't subscribe to Chandhi being manifest in a hom performed by Guru Gobind Singh myself. At least until compelling evidence is produced. If the ritual was done so publically, would we not have have stronger contemporary reference to it? As far as I am aware the matter doesn't seem to have been referred too prior to Chibber's work. That is a lifetime away from Dasmesh pita's passing. The stark contradiction between performing a hom/havan for Durga and the theology enschrined in SGGS ji is too easily overlooked by some and the often convoluted and elaborate explanations don't seem particularly convincing. In a society that relied heavily on oral transmission of events in the 1700s, and one not being highly literate, it would be easy for an introduced notion to quickly gain wider currency in the community. Singhs of that period would have had to defer theological and historical vichaar placing a stronger emphasis on military considerations for freedom and survival. We shouldn't discount the introduction and growth of the legend in this period. We also know that a single 'sakhis' can quickly evolve into many different forms with writers adding their own gloss. This could account for the variations of the Chandhi legend as mentioned by brother tsingh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 This seems to contradict Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with regards thefutility of Shakta worship and Sri Dasam Granth which posits Shakti asa creation of Akal. Would you agree?It is actually an Abrahamic philosophical interpolation which posits "futility" with worship of the Divine as a lesser form or mere creation. And I will show you what I mean. Our boat of mukti is the NAAM. What is NAAM? It is not nirguna, because it can be perceived and has the swaroop of vakia. It can be spoken, and hence it exists in the material world. We know that the NAAM is only an aspect of the nirgun Divinity because Japji Sahib tells us the Guru is the sound current of the Primal Nada. And all sound comes from the Pranava, which is the sound current of the Naad vibrating from the nirgun imperceivable realm as anehad shabad, into the perceivable world of form as Guru Vak, Shabad, kirtan and NAAM. No one makes the mistake of thinking NAAM is separate from the nirgun Divine simply because it has sargun attributes which are perceivable. It is precisely the perceivable aspects which make it a boat for us to grasp and be rescued by. Without having any form at all, how could anyone praise the AKAAL? With what word? With what thought? With what perception? You can't. AKAAL is simply beyond us. And so we require the instrumentality of a Satguru who knows the God to make manifest to us the shabad and NAAM. All of these instrumentalities: Guru, Vak, Shabad, NAAM, vibrating sound current, kirtan of Lord's praise are perceivable within the physical realm, and are therefore, Sargun roop. We don't condemn the sargun roop of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We don't condemn the physical vak of the shabad, kirtan and NAAM. We have never condemned or discredited the physical embodiment of the Guru's living forms. Yet everyone seems to be having an issue with Devi. Devi's roop is symbolic. It contains truth on more than one level of perception. To belittle and discredit Devi's roop and purpose is to discredit the God you can't perceive by invalidating the concepts which make that incomprehensible power of the nirguna physical and literal for our benefit. Moreover it discredits the incredible brahmgyaan of Guru Sahib who used Devi's roop to teach spiritual concepts about the Divine, Divine Justice, and kurbani to the Khalsa. If Guruji used Devi to explain aspects of the Divinity, who are we to throw out those concepts and invalidate them as useless to us nowadays? Of course, anyone is entitled to do so. I have never said anyone needs to agree with my opinion. But you people are not understanding Devi. First try to understand the meaning of those concepts, and then analyze whether you can throw them out and still have a valid Guru teaching. The issue with people who have not studied Vedanta is that they don't understand the philosophical concepts and get stuck in something like "greater than" and "lesser than." Let's start with this. The God is the God, and a worm is a worm. God is greater and worm is lesser. This is fact. But we exist in a world of duality, where appearances aren't always what they seem. On another level of reality, it is equally true that the God exists pervading inside the worm. Many philosophers have tried to explain these concepts in a comprehensible way. Some have called as particles of light existing within all beings. Some have called as souls existing within all beings. Some have called energy or shakti existing within all beings. But the point is, on another level of reality, it is equally true that the worm and the God are one. From that perspective, our egotistical arrogance of something like caste, or wealth, or youth, or power fades from us, because even the flowers sing His praises. The whole point of attaining a consciousness like turiya is to be freed from the bondages of ego-based perceptions such as "yours" and "mine," "greater" and "lesser," "value" and "devalue." God is simply beyond petty egotism of who is dusting His floors and beneath His feet and who is His very own Divine Beloved Oneness. Only concepts such as who is greater and who is lesser occupy the mentalities of judgmental manmukhs whose thoughts are themselves very often far from the God's praise. When Guru Ji is shown in aspect of pujari, it is not to denote inferiority or any supremacy of Devi. It is to denote that the physicality of the Guru's embodied form is always worshipping the Divine, as a teaching to us. ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ ॥੪॥੫॥ naanak dhaas eihai sukh maagai mo ko kar santhan kee dhhoorae ||4||5|| Nanak, Your slave, begs for this happiness: let me be the dust of the feet of the Saints. ||4||5|| ~SGGS Ji ang 13 Nanak Das? If we had an authentic concept of the incredible purity of nirmata, we could understand that the greatest glory is contained within the lowest and least, and the most corrupted arrogance is polluting the very highest. And so Guruji has taught us even the devatay are corrupted in sansaara. So the greatest attainment of a spiritual Master is to be able to bow down and not be inwardly disturbed by kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar. But such displays of humility offend the ego of a proud man. And for that reason, the sadhana of performing namaskaram is a spiritual treatment for the ego-consciousness. To bow down, not to the individual, or even a human form, or an idol but the Divine Light shining through all these false appearances, as recognizing the Holy Presence all-pervading all things; that is to bring consciousness to awareness of God. And that is why such displays of humility are actually a profound and powerful spiritual practice, be it to sant, to murthi, to parents, to an ideal. Is there anyplace God is not pervading? Just as moving Guruji's feet away from Mecca only moved Mecca. We have lost the understanding in our condemnation of outward forms of practice. If someone is ignorant and hypocritical in his practices, that's for God and Guru to judge. Why do we condemn? If Gurbani chastises the hypocritical worship of offering living flowers and stems and leaves which contain the all-pervading consciousness of the Divine to a dead stone, then we see that and don't have to do it. But understand that all symbolism of murthis and devatay have an underlying spiritual meaning which is not worthless or worthy to offend and Guruji did not so offend. It was a Hindu Vaishnav Raam Nami bhagat named Kabir Ji whose tuuks of Gurbani corrected the hypocritical sacrificing of living flowers to stone murthis. If we lose humility in the process of self-righteous condemnation of another person's spiritual understanding, it does not make us holy, and in fact causes us to fall down lower. Devi has a valid place in the purataan heritage of Guru Khalsa Panth, and nothing, and no one's ignorance can ever take that away. ਸਾਧੂ ਕੀ ਹੋਹੁ ਰੇਣੁਕਾ ਅਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ॥ saadhhoo kee hohu raenukaa apanaa aap thiaag || Become the dust of the Saints; renounce your selfishness and conceit. ਉਪਾਵ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਸਗਲ ਛਡਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥ oupaav siaanap sagal shhadd gur kee charanee laag || Give up all your schemes and your clever mental tricks, and fall at the Feet of the Guru. ~SGGS Ji ang 45 Guru Nanak Dev Ji is teaching from His amazing piare and amazing nirmata and absolute spiritual Mastery. Ordinary men could never describe themselves in such terms as being a mere "dust" and "slave" without prickling discomfort of dukh to the ego. It wounds the pride! Imagine the Satcha Patshah describing Himself in terms of mere "das." Then you will undertand why we are wrong trying to define the Divine Totality and His individually described spiritual qualities or powers in terms of "lesser" and "greater" as completely erroneous and only evidence of our bondage to duality concepts. Only in the created sansaar is there a duality consciousness to perceive the God in parts and not as a wholeness. So we will say "God is a tail!" or "God is a neck!" or "God is a trunk" Some people actually do worship the God as Muruga, or the God as Ganapati, or the God as Lord Shiva. But human beings cannot perceive the whole elephant of the nirguna. And so, in reality, there is a defect in all of our worship, in all of our human perceptions of God. To think a concept of nirguna is not to have a perception of the imperceptible. Only by merging, can He Himself, know Himself. It doesn't matter if you say you worship only the nirguna, because you can't even describe or perceive what you claim to worship. And this is why Guru says all these Naams are Naams of the Divine. It doesn't matter what name you call it, or what aspect or perception you have of the Divine, the Divine will always be beyond you. ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael || Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter. ~SGGS Ji ang 21 The God is so great, He is even a slave, He is even conscious in a worm, He is even embodied as a human Guru able to be tortured and murdered while yet always existing in untouchable, undying samadhi. This is a lesson to reach us, that we too, as sparks of the Divine Fire can rise so high as to become ONE and UNITED with the Totality. And that is the state we call, mukti. The jeevan mukta can be tortured but is beyond pain. So he can rejoice even in suffering. Just talking about the nirgun overlooks Gurbani teaching that the Divine is both nirgun AND sargun. It nowhere says He is nirgun only. When we say this, we are philosophically wrong. If you want to be intellectually honest and say the God is nirgun only, you must eliminate Satguru, Shabad, Naam, and even Gurbani from the equation. Because without these sargun roops which the Divine Totality imperceivable nirguna has manifested, we have ZERO boat of mukti. That's the problem with literalism. And if we accept that the Divine Nirguna also manifests His Light and Power in form, then why do we care whether that form taken is a worm, or a bird, or air, or an atma, or an avataara, or a Human form of born Satguru, or Brahma-Shiva-Vishnu, or a head-linga-feet, or the love of Divine Mother Devi with uncut kes who rides the power of a lion/Singh and is shastardhari to save Her children from unjust oppression? If the Divine is CONSCIOUSNESS and CONSCIOUSNESS itself is ALL-PERVADING every living thing, why do we try to limit the infinite forms the Divine Consciousness appears as? It is only an appearance. The totality and fullness of the Truth is BEYOND FORM. According to Advaita philosophy, all this is God and there is nothing that is not God. Nothing exists which is beyond the pre-existing immortal Divine Presence and Consciousness. God is an infinity, and the infinity encapsulates, incorporates and subsumes the finite within it. ਫਿਰਿ ਬਾਬਾ ਗਇਆ ਬਗਦਾਦਿ ਨੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜਾਇ ਕੀਆ ਅਸਥਾਨਾ । dhiri baabaa gaiaa bagadaadi no baahari jaai keeaa asadaanaa| From Mecca Baba went to Baghdad and stayed outside the city. ਇਕੁ ਬਾਬਾ ਅਕਾਲ ਰੁਪੂ ਦੂਜਾ ਰਬਾਬੀ ਮਰਦਾਨਾ । iku baabaa akaal rupoo doojaa rabaabee maradaanaa| Firstly, Baba himself was in the form of Timeless and secondly, he had his companion Mardana, the rebeck player. ਦਿਤੀ ਬਾਂਗਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਿ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਨਿ ਹੋਆ ਜਹਾਨਾ । ditee baangi nivaaji kari sunni samaani hoaa jahaanaa| For namaz (in his own style), Baba gave call, listening to which the whole world went into absolute silence. ਸੁੰਨ ਮੁੰਨਿ ਨਗਰੀ ਭਈ ਦੇਖਿ ਪੀਰ ਭਇਆ ਹੈਰਾਨਾ । sunn munni nagaree bhaee daykhi peer bhaiaa hairaanaa| The whole city became quiet and lo! to behold it, the pir also got wonderstruck. ਵੇਖੈ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਲਗਾਇ ਕਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਫਕੀਰੁ ਵਡਾ ਮਸਤਾਨਾ । vaykhai dhiaanu|agaai kari iku dhakeeru vadaa masataanaa| Observing minutely he found (in the form of Baba Nanak) an exhilarated fakir. ਪੁਛਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਕੈ ਦਸਤਗੀਰ ਕਉਣ ਫਕੀਰੁ ਕਿਸਕਾ ਘਰਿਆਨਾ puchhiaa dhiri kai dasatageer kaun dhakeeru kisakaa ghariaanaa Pir Dastegir asked him, which category of fakir you belong to and what is your parentage. ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇਆ ਰਬੁ ਫਕੀਰੁ ਇਕੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ । naanak kali vichi aaiaa rabu dhakeeru iko pahichaanaa| (Mardana told) He is Nanak, who has come into kaliyug, and, he recognizes God and His fakirs as one. ਧਰਤਿ ਆਕਾਸ ਚਹੂ ਦਿਸਿ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੩੫॥ dharati aakaas chahoo disi jaanaa ॥35॥ He is known in all the directions besides earth and sky. ~Vaar 1 Pauri 35 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji It is famously described among Vaishnava sampradayas that there are many varied levels and manifestations of the Divine Light and Consciousness. Not all the devatay are equal in the light and power they manifest. Some are "lesser" and "greater" yet, the Divine Himself is not lesser to manifest in part, as some particular aspect for some particular reason. That is the power of a concept of qualified non-dualism known as Achintya Bheda Abheda, meaning: "inconceivable Oneness AND difference." This philosophy teaches that God is both a separate Divine Beloved greater than His creation and EQUALLY that entire creation is only He, the All-pervading Oneness. ਨਾ ਵੇਛੋੜਿਆ ਵਿਛੁੜੈ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ naa vaeshhorriaa vishhurrai sabh mehi rehiaa samaae || In separation, He is not separated from us; He is pervading and permeating amongst all. ~SGGS Ji ang 46 And always, despite the limitations of the material sansaar, even our own intellect is like a mirror, called the "chidabhasa" meaning heart-mind light reflection. When we intellectualize, we have a consciousness able to perceive and interact BECAUSE there is a pre-existing, underlying LIGHT WHICH IS DIVINE WITHIN US. But it only exists, and only reflects a greater LIGHT. But on another level of reality, Light is only Light, it can never be less than or greater than, it simply is LIGHT. When we reflect on the point between the eyebrows, the witness resides there, known as the Kutastha Caitanya, Brahman consciousness, or God-consciousness. When we are caught in the ego-mind, we are the limited jeev, and our consciousness is mere reflection of glorious Light. But the glorious Light is our true being. When the jeev is surrendered, our atma merges into the Paramatma, and there is only LIGHT and no more individual self. In like manner the various Lights and powers and excellencies of the devatay in sansaara will also at some future time, merge back into the wholeness from whence they sprang. That is the eternal cycle of creation and dissolution. ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੋ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੮॥੬॥ naanak eaeko rav rehiaa dhoojaa avar n koe ||8||6|| O Nanak, the One is pervading everywhere; there is no other at all. ||8||6|| ~SGGS Ji ang 57 ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥ sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas || They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One. ~SGGS Ji ang 20 DEVI is the Light of God manifesting as Shastars to give the us the grace to offer kurbani for Dharma, equally as one offers his head and submits his ego to God and Guru for the sake of justice, truth, peace, and all the qualities which contain the God infinitely. On another level of reality all the fullness of the Divine Totality which is Nirguna manifests as the energy/shakti of the sarbloh shastars and vibrates the sound current and light of Divine Presence in the hands of the sant-sipahi. If you take apart the Devi, you would have to take apart all the qualities of the Khalsa who are the Divine soulbrides of the undying Oneness who is Justice and Peace, Truth and Power. Gurbani says: ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤ ਸਗਲ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਮਇਆ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਤੇਰੀ ਦੋਹੀ ॥੧॥ siv siv karath sagal kar jorehi sarab maeiaa thaakur thaeree dhohee ||1|| Everyone calls upon You with their palms pressed together, saying, ""Shiva, Shiva"". O Merciful Lord and Master, everyone cries out for Your Help. ~SGGS Ji ang 207 Yet we will deny that Shiva is Naam of the Divine Lord? We will deny that Shakti Devi is Herself an emanation of Lord Shiva and therefore Himself in another aspect? Doesn't this contradict Gurbani? Gurbani says: ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ eaekaa maaee jugath viaaee thin chaelae paravaan || The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities. ~SGGS Ji ang 7 ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥ so kio visarai maeree maae || How can I forget Him, O my mother? ~SGGS Ji ang 9 ਇਕੋ ਭਾਈ ਮਿਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਇਕੋ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ॥ eiko bhaaee mith eik eiko maath pithaa || The One is my Brother, the One is my Friend. The One is my Mother and Father. ~SGGS Ji ang 45 ਅਚਰਜ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੋ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੇਲਾਇਆ ਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ acharaj roop niranjano gur maelaaeiaa maae ||1|| Wondrous is the Form of the Immaculate One. Through the Guru, I have met Him, O my mother! ~SGGS Ji ang 46 I think what we have is not a problem with Devi, but just a failure of the imagination. We have put God in a little box, and if any concept comes to us that doesn't reflect that boxiness, we throw a fit and try to hack off all it's limbs to force it into that box. But that mentality is utterly the opposite of turiya which is freed from the bondages of such limited judgements and fear-based intolerant failure of imagination. Moreover, turiya is freed from the endless disrespecting of the Divine feminine which has led to so much degradation of the actual feminine throughout the world. If more men were courageous enough to embrace their motherly energies and be willing to sacrifice themselves protectively for others like a mother for her beloved children, and with all the beauty and holiness of female qualities freed from corruption, we could have a balance of male and female, which reflects the perfection and undivided unity of God. Isn't it true that even Guru Sahibaan have described the TRUE POWER OF THE DIVINE in terms of feminine shakti and not as masculine force! And that is because deadly force without the compassionate heart and intention of a mother for her children is simply destructive and not corrective. There is a great spiritual lesson in this imagery, and in why Bhadrakali is considered to be the embodiment of Divine Love and why Radha is considered the hladini shakti, the very heart and soul of Bhagavan Krishna. Shakti Devi as roop of Mahamaya is the power AND the Divine love of a Mother. It is the aspect of protection of the world and not the annihilation of it that is represented here, although it comes just near to annihilation because that's the force demanded to stop the injustices and right the balance of Dharma once again. The Mother Herself becomes terrifying aspect, to be a terror to the terrorists of the world, but it is out of love and protection. You ignore that element, and the power you wield only sways toward the self-serving demonic. That is the power of the psychological symbolism. Alter that, and you change the course of the future. The Khalsa will cease their dance with the Divine Beloved as soulbrides who act as fatherly AND motherly protectors of a suffering world. Pure force with masculine energies unbalanced by unity with the Divine feminine becomes just another demonic oppression and unloving torture of the world. Divine Mother cherishes Her children. God has come to us in the unity of a Father AND a Mother. We are supposed to be a Father and a Mother to this world. THAT is a true Khalsa. That is the power, meaning and importance of Adi Shakti, Sarabloh Shakti, Mata Shakti. ਸੋ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜ ਭਗਵੰਤੈ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ So bẖag▫uṯī jo bẖagvanṯai jāṇai. One who knows the Benevolent Lord God is the true devotee of Bhagaautee. ~SGGS Ji ang 88 ਚਾਰੇ ਦੀਵੇ ਚਹੁ ਹਥਿ ਦੀਏ ਏਕਾ ਏਕਾ ਵਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ Cẖāre ḏīve cẖahu hath ḏī▫e ekā ekā vārī. ||1|| He placed the four lamps, one by one, into the hands of the four ages. ||1|| ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਮਾਧੌ ਐਸੀ ਸਕਤਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Miharvān maḏẖusūḏan māḏẖou aisī sakaṯ ṯumĥārī. ||1|| rahā▫o. O Merciful Lord, Destroyer of demons, Lord of Lakshmi, such is Your Power - Your Shakti. ||1||Pause|| ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਲਸਕਰੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥ Gẖar gẖar laskar pāvak ṯerā ḏẖaram kare sikḏārī. Your army is the fire in the home of each and every heart. And Dharma - righteous living is the ruling chieftain. ~SGGS Ji ang 1190 ਨਾਰਦ ਸਾਰਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਖਵਾਸੀ ॥ naaradh saaradh karehi khavaasee || Naarada the sage, and Shaarada the goddess of knowledge, serve the Lord. ਪਾਸਿ ਬੈਠੀ ਬੀਬੀ ਕਵਲਾ ਦਾਸੀ ॥੨॥ paas baithee beebee kavalaa dhaasee ||2|| The goddess Lakhshmi sits by Him as His slave. ਕੰਠੇ ਮਾਲਾ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਾਮੁ ॥ kanthae maalaa jihavaa raam || The mala is around my neck, and the Lord's Name is upon my tongue. ਸਹੰਸ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਕਰਉ ਸਲਾਮੁ ॥੩॥ sehans naam lai lai karo salaam ||3|| I repeat the Naam, the Name of the Lord, a thousand times, and bow in reverence to Him. ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥ kehath kabeer raam gun gaavo || Says Kabeer, I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord; ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਊ ਸਮਝਾਵਉ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩॥ hindhoo thurak dhooo samajhaavo ||4||4||13|| I teach both Hindus and Muslims. ~SGGS Ji ang 479 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Simple and short. ਯਹ ਮਾਤਾ ਦੀ। I don't worship mythical creatures. My shakti is Sri Sahib hanging by my waist. Sri Sahib will help me in need, not some pretty lady riding lion. Shashtra is Shakti of Khalsa, and will help only if you use them, not by worshiping. This is the devi pargat by Dasam Pita. Hindu brothers were worshiping them for over a millennium, instead of using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 (edited) . Edited January 14, 2010 by laalsingh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Harjas Kaur Ji. that was very interesting. tell me, do you view the feminine atributes of gurbani as representing the devi. specificaly where you have quoted "The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities." do you see this great mother as the tiger-riding devi? also you have placed great emphasis on the sargun swaroop of gurbani. do you believe Guru Granth Sahib to be the physical representation of Guru's body ie the cover and the pages and the ink etc or the word itslef to be the spiritual representation of Guru? is the anhad shabad sargun or nirgun? how does naam exist in the material world when it is spoken? And what if it is not spoken but mentally remmebered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 (edited) 7 pages on such a topic, its unbelievable. Back to basics: -we acknowledge devi devte,beings under Vaheguru,but we dont need them in our lives. -Guru Gobind Singh Ji is Vaheguru himself. Add the two together, you have the answer. Edited January 14, 2010 by Silence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 ਨਾਰਦ ਸਾਰਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਖਵਾਸੀ ॥ naaradh saaradh karehi khavaasee || Naarada the sage, and Shaarada the goddess of knowledge, serve the Lord. ਪਾਸਿ ਬੈਠੀ ਬੀਬੀ ਕਵਲਾ ਦਾਸੀ ॥੨॥ paas baithee beebee kavalaa dhaasee ||2|| The goddess Lakhshmi sits by Him as His slave. ਕੰਠੇ ਮਾਲਾ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਾਮੁ ॥ kanthae maalaa jihavaa raam || The mala is around my neck, and the Lord's Name is upon my tongue. ਸਹੰਸ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਕਰਉ ਸਲਾਮੁ ॥੩॥ sehans naam lai lai karo salaam ||3|| I repeat the Naam, the Name of the Lord, a thousand times, and bow in reverence to Him. ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥ kehath kabeer raam gun gaavo || Says Kabeer, I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord; ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਊ ਸਮਝਾਵਉ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩॥ hindhoo thurak dhooo samajhaavo ||4||4||13|| I teach both Hindus and Muslims. ~SGGS Ji ang 479 Full shabad ਆਸਾ ॥ ਹਜ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਗੋਮਤੀ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਜਹਾ ਬਸਹਿ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਪੀਰ ॥੧॥ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਿਆ ਖੂਬੁ ਗਾਵਤਾ ਹੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵਤਾ ਹੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Company of Holy men on banks of Gomti, singing His names, is (like) Hajj for Bhagat ji. ਨਾਰਦ ਸਾਰਦ ਕਰਹਿ ਖਵਾਸੀ ॥ ਪਾਸਿ ਬੈਠੀ ਬੀਬੀ ਕਵਲਾ ਦਾਸੀ ॥੨॥ ਕੰਠੇ ਮਾਲਾ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਰਾਮੁ ॥ ਸਹੰਸ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੈ ਲੈ ਕਰਉ ਸਲਾਮੁ ॥੩॥ ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਊ ਸਮਝਾਵਉ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩॥ Where is this Shabad telling us to worship Bibi Kavla, who is slave of Lord? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maha Singh Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Where has anyone said that we should worship the devi above nirgun vaheguroo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 ਸੋ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜ ਭਗਵੰਤੈ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ So bẖag▫uṯī jo bẖagvanṯai jāṇai. One who knows the Benevolent Lord God is the true devotee of Bhagaautee. ~SGGS Ji ang 88 ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਸੋ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜ+ ਭਗਵੰਤੈ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਇਕਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਆਣੈ ॥ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥ Bhagauti here is Bhagat and Bhagwant is Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 ਚਾਰੇ ਦੀਵੇ ਚਹੁ ਹਥਿ ਦੀਏ ਏਕਾ ਏਕਾ ਵਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ Cẖāre ḏīve cẖahu hath ḏī▫e ekā ekā vārī. ||1|| He placed the four lamps, one by one, into the hands of the four ages. ||1|| ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਮਾਧੌ ਐਸੀ ਸਕਤਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Miharvān maḏẖusūḏan māḏẖou aisī sakaṯ ṯumĥārī. ||1|| rahā▫o. O Merciful Lord, Destroyer of demons, Lord of Lakshmi, such is Your Power - Your Shakti. ||1||Pause|| ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਲਸਕਰੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰੇ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥ Gẖar gẖar laskar pāvak ṯerā ḏẖaram kare sikḏārī. Your army is the fire in the home of each and every heart. And Dharma - righteous living is the ruling chieftain. ~SGGS Ji ang 1190 Read the whole Shabad, Gurbani on power of Lord. ਬਸੰਤੁ ਹਿੰਡੋਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੨ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਨਉ ਸਤ ਚਉਦਹ ਤੀਨਿ ਚਾਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਹਲਤਿ ਚਾਰਿ ਬਹਾਲੀ ॥ ਚਾਰੇ ਦੀਵੇ ਚਹੁ ਹਥਿ ਦੀਏ ਏਕਾ ਏਕਾ ਵਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਮਾਧੌ ਐਸੀ ਸਕਤਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ How He is being called Allah and turn of Muslim divines has come. ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਉ ਅਲਹੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਸੇਖਾਂ ਆਈ ਵਾਰੀ ॥ Tax is being charged on temples. ਦੇਵਲ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕਰੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਐਸੀ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਚਾਲੀ ॥੫॥ Muslim practices are here and Lord appears in blue form. ਕੂਜਾ ਬਾਂਗ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਮੁਸਲਾ ਨੀਲ ਰੂਪ ਬਨਵਾਰੀ ॥ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮੀਆ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਜੀਆਂ ਬੋਲੀ ਅਵਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥੬॥ If you wish so (putting Muslim ruler in place), what power do we (mortals) have? ਜੇ ਤੂ ਮੀਰ ਮਹੀਪਤਿ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਉਣ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥ ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਟ ਸਲਾਮੁ ਕਰਹਿਗੇ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ॥੭॥ Pilgrimage, reading Smirtis, donations are very small as compared to Name of the Lord, even for moment. ਤੀਰਥ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਪੁੰਨ ਦਾਨ ਕਿਛੁ ਲਾਹਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਦਿਹਾੜੀ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਮੇਕਾ ਘੜੀ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲੀ ॥੮॥੧॥੮॥ Now what this Shabad has to do with Devi worship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 (edited) ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael || Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter. ~SGGS Ji ang 21 Exactly, but you want to worship Shiv or Shakti? DEVI is the Light of God manifesting as Shastars to give the us the grace to offer kurbani for Dharma, equally as one offers his head and submits his ego to God and Guru for the sake of justice, truth, peace, and all the qualities which contain the God infinitely. Very good, now that's the Devi of Khalsa. But don't mix it with Shakti or Laxmi or Maai by quoting Shabads out of context. Edited January 14, 2010 by laalsingh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted January 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Kalyug, There is only a contradiction if we take the references to Mahakalika described in Bachittar Natak to have separate bhaavrup (ontological difference) from Akal Purush. That would be two rather than one...whereas all the quotations cited so far such as Bhavani being 'charan saran', etc do not suggest two, but one alone. Likewise we have Khandaa and then Durga as Kam points out. In Chandi Di Var we have Durga and Kali as two seperate entities, and therefore forms of the devi at the same time, not the singular Akal. So there is the maya-prakirti-paraashakti as the icchashakti of Mayapati Sargun Parmeshvar, and then there is the created devi and devtas as we already know including Durga. Now just as Parmeshvar is indicated through the actions and names of Vishnu Bhagvan, similarly the icchashakti is indicated through the actions and names of the Devi. But yes, this begins to get complicated when we start to think through all this in terms of siddhant. Still working on it. Are you planning to publish your findings, veer ji? I for one would be very interested in reading your research into the matter. I'd disagree with you on Gurbilas Patshahi Dasvin and Panth Prakash. Its not a retelling. If you actually read all the historical texts themselves you'll see for yourself that this is not a mere retelling of the sakhi. There are clear differences not only about who was involved, what was done, but also what the intention was. For example Gyani Gyan Singh ji states that Sri Guru Ji was prompted by the Mahabharat katha and was conducting an enquiry of sorts into the Brahmins claims. Yet still the devi manifests. Whereas Gurbilas Patshahi Dasvin states clearly that Sri Guru Ji was a devi upaasak and sought a boon from her. If these two are a retelling, then similarly Chaubis Avatar is a mere retelling of Bhagvat Purana...but they are not, there are important differences. Different interpretations of one event. I was thinking the legend was passed on through something more along the lines of Chinese whispers rather than a direct retelling. That would explain the differences in actors in the story and the different reasons given by the various retellers of this story. I don't think comparing dhur ki bani and a myth is realy going to work, Singh. Guru Ji makes it clear right at the beginning why Chaubis Avatar was written. Regards, K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted January 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 It is actually an Abrahamic philosophical interpolation which posits "futility" with worship of the Divine as a lesser form or mere creation. And I will show you what I mean. A nice neat theory, except that there are countless exmaples on Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib describing the futility of the various methods of worship, meditation and penance that were prevalent in that age. Vide Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Siddh Gosht as one great example. I've put the rest of your quotes in italics since the quote function has a limit on it. We don't condemn the sargun roop of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We don't condemn the physical vak of the shabad, kirtan and NAAM. We have never condemned or discredited the physical embodiment of the Guru's living forms. Yet everyone seems to be having an issue with Devi. No one here has an issue with the Devi, as you put it. We are simply discussing Gurbani, and it is Gurbani that dismisses the worship of Devi (you can insert the name of any Devata here) as a means to obtain mukti. Devi's roop is symbolic. It contains truth on more than one level of perception. To belittle and discredit Devi's roop and purpose is to discredit the God you can't perceive by invalidating the concepts which make that incomprehensible power of the nirguna physical and literal for our benefit. Moreover it discredits the incredible brahmgyaan of Guru Sahib who used Devi's roop to teach spiritual concepts about the Divine, Divine Justice, and kurbani to the Khalsa. If Guruji used Devi to explain aspects of the Divinity, who are we to throw out those concepts and invalidate them as useless to us nowadays? Who is throwing out these concepts? There are many of us here who recite Chandi bania daily. Do you? Those of us who read them are more than capable of accepting the message of the bania without confusing the Devi as some form of Akal that requires worship rather than simple respect for her role and how good she is at performing the function assigned to her by Akal. The issue with people who have not studied Vedanta is that they don't understand the philosophical concepts and get stuck in something like "greater than" and "lesser than." It appears pretty clear from this thread that the problem is that people who have studied Vedanta are not capable of seeing where Gurbani differs from this teaching in many respects. Let's start with this. The God is the God, and a worm is a worm. God is greater and worm is lesser. This is fact. But we exist in a world of duality, where appearances aren't always what they seem. On another level of reality, it is equally true that the God exists pervading inside the worm. Many philosophers have tried to explain these concepts in a comprehensible way. Some have called as particles of light existing within all beings. Some have called as souls existing within all beings. Some have called energy or shakti existing within all beings. But the point is, on another level of reality, it is equally true that the worm and the God are one. From that perspective, our egotistical arrogance of something like caste, or wealth, or youth, or power fades from us, because even the flowers sing His praises. The whole point of attaining a consciousness like turiya is to be freed from the bondages of ego-based perceptions such as "yours" and "mine," "greater" and "lesser," "value" and "devalue." God is simply beyond petty egotism of who is dusting His floors and beneath His feet and who is His very own Divine Beloved Oneness. Only concepts such as who is greater and who is lesser occupy the mentalities of judgmental manmukhs whose thoughts are themselves very often far from the God's praise. When Guru Ji is shown in aspect of pujari, it is not to denote inferiority or any supremacy of Devi. It is to denote that the physicality of the Guru's embodied form is always worshipping the Divine, as a teaching to us. I think you should read carefully what you have written here, because I don't think you have quite grasped the importance of your own logic. It is true that Akal exists equally in worms, leaves (vide Akal Ustat), humans, animals, the Devis and Devatay. This does not mean that one worships these things as Akal Hirself. Also, where in Gurbani is Guru Ji described as pujari to Devi or any other Devatay? But understand that all symbolism of murthis and devatay have an underlying spiritual meaning which is not worthless or worthy to offend and Guruji did not so offend. It was a Hindu Vaishnav Raam Nami bhagat named Kabir Ji whose tuuks of Gurbani corrected the hypocritical sacrificing of living flowers to stone murthis. If we lose humility in the process of self-righteous condemnation of another person's spiritual understanding, it does not make us holy, and in fact causes us to fall down lower. I suggest that you read Gurbani more closely regarding the worship of murtis and stones. There is no offence in pointing out the stupidity of a worthless practice if the intention is to offer a superiot form of worship which will grant them mukti instead of endless rebirth. Devi has a valid place in the purataan heritage of Guru Khalsa Panth, and nothing, and no one's ignorance can ever take that away. No one is claiming that Chandi bania are not an important part of Dasam Granth and the Khalsa Panth. I sincerely have no idea where you are getting this idea. What is in question in this thread is the veracity of an old historical story and whether this myth is in consonance with the message Dasmesh PIta has given us in Dasam Granth. Some people actually do worship the God as Muruga, or the God as Ganapati, or the God as Lord Shiva. But human beings cannot perceive the whole elephant of the nirguna. And so, in reality, there is a defect in all of our worship, in all of our human perceptions of God. To think a concept of nirguna is not to have a perception of the imperceptible. Only by merging, can He Himself, know Himself. It doesn't matter if you say you worship only the nirguna, because you can't even describe or perceive what you claim to worship. And this is why Guru says all these Naams are Naams of the Divine. It doesn't matter what name you call it, or what aspect or perception you have of the Divine, the Divine will always be beyond you. ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434. ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael || Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter. ~SGGS Ji ang 21 ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸਕਤੀ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਉ ॥ This mind is Shakti; this mind is Shiva. (342) ਨਹ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਜਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਵਨਾ ਤਹ ਅਕਾਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਮੇਦਨੀ ॥ There is no Shiva or Shakti, no energy or matter, no water or wind, no world of form there, ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਜੋਗ ਕਾ ਤਹਾ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ਜਹ ਅਵਿਗਤ ਨਾਥੁ ਅਗਮ ਧਨੀ ॥੩॥ where the True Guru, the Yogi, dwells, where the Imperishable Lord God, the Unapproachable Master abides. (883) ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਾਏ ॥ He Himself created Shiva and Shakti, mind and matter; the Creator subjects them to His Command. (920) ਕੋਟਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਸਿਵ ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰ ॥ Millions of Shaktis and Shivas are obedient to Him. (1156) DEVI is the Light of God manifesting as Shastars to give the us the grace to offer kurbani for Dharma, equally as one offers his head and submits his ego to God and Guru for the sake of justice, truth, peace, and all the qualities which contain the God infinitely. On another level of reality all the fullness of the Divine Totality which is Nirguna manifests as the energy/shakti of the sarbloh shastars and vibrates the sound current and light of Divine Presence in the hands of the sant-sipahi. If you take apart the Devi, you would have to take apart all the qualities of the Khalsa who are the Divine soulbrides of the undying Oneness who is Justice and Peace, Truth and Power. This is the Sikh understanding of Ad Shakti, yes. Gurbani says: ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤ ਸਗਲ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਮਇਆ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਤੇਰੀ ਦੋਹੀ ॥੧॥ siv siv karath sagal kar jorehi sarab maeiaa thaakur thaeree dhohee ||1|| Everyone calls upon You with their palms pressed together, saying, ""Shiva, Shiva"". O Merciful Lord and Master, everyone cries out for Your Help. ~SGGS Ji ang 207 Yet we will deny that Shiva is Naam of the Divine Lord? We will deny that Shakti Devi is Herself an emanation of Lord Shiva and therefore Himself in another aspect? Doesn't this contradict Gurbani? You are either ignoring or not understanding the fact that Akal is referred to here nor some Devata by that name. Do you read Jap Ji Sahib in the mornings? Gurbani says: ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ eaekaa maaee jugath viaaee thin chaelae paravaan || The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities. ~SGGS Ji ang 7 ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਇ ॥ so kio visarai maeree maae || How can I forget Him, O my mother? ~SGGS Ji ang 9 ਇਕੋ ਭਾਈ ਮਿਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਇਕੋ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ॥ eiko bhaaee mith eik eiko maath pithaa || The One is my Brother, the One is my Friend. The One is my Mother and Father. ~SGGS Ji ang 45 ਅਚਰਜ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੋ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੇਲਾਇਆ ਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ acharaj roop niranjano gur maelaaeiaa maae ||1|| Wondrous is the Form of the Immaculate One. Through the Guru, I have met Him, O my mother! ~SGGS Ji ang 46 I think what we have is not a problem with Devi, but just a failure of the imagination. We have put God in a little box, and if any concept comes to us that doesn't reflect that boxiness, we throw a fit and try to hack off all it's limbs to force it into that box. What is referred to in those tuks is Akal, not some Devi. Akal Purakh is envisaged as beyond gender and therefore has both maternal and paternal aspects. Akal creates, sustains, and destroys. It's Akal who is mother and father of the universe, not Durga. Isn't it true that even Guru Sahibaan have described the TRUE POWER OF THE DIVINE in terms of feminine shakti and not as masculine force! Why do you find that surprising? That power is not Durga, it is still Akal, who is without form or gender. ਕੋਟਿ ਸੂਰ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥ Millions of suns shine for Him, ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਰੁ ਕਬਿਲਾਸ ॥ millions of Shivas and Kailash mountains. ਦੁਰਗਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਰਦਨੁ ਕਰੈ ॥ Millions of Durga goddesses massage His Feet. ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਬੇਦ ਉਚਰੈ ॥੧॥ Millions of Brahmas chant the Vedas for Him. ||1|| ਜਉ ਜਾਚਉ ਤਉ ਕੇਵਲ ਰਾਮ ॥ When I beg, I beg only from the Lord. ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਾਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ I have nothing to do with any other deities. ||1||Pause|| (1162) Regards, K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 'I don't think comparing dhur ki bani and a myth is realy going to work, Singh' A myth?! If its a 'myth' why would Guru Maharaj trace his own suryavanshi lineage through the 'myth' that forms a major part of the Bhagvat Purana?! I've come across your type of argument about chaubis avatar before, which seriously ignores the fact that Bachitar Natak is NOT based on any puranic material! Surely what Sri Guru Maharaj is saying of himself cannot be thought of as a 'myth'?? Now if we take your 'myth' argument further it makes the devtas and avatars 'myths' also. Did the events that are mentioned in gurbani take place or are they 'myths'? Are the accounts of those 'Gurmukhs' mentioned in the Bhagvat Purana such as Ajamal, Ganika, Prehlad, myths? Did Bhagvan not manifest as Narsingh? All of this is the content of the Bhagavat Purana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted January 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 'I don't think comparing dhur ki bani and a myth is realy going to work, Singh' A myth?! If its a 'myth' why would Guru Maharaj trace his own suryavanshi lineage through the 'myth' that forms a major part of the Bhagvat Purana?! I've come across your type of argument about chaubis avatar before, which seriously ignores the fact that Bachitar Natak is NOT based on any puranic material! Surely what Sri Guru Maharaj is saying of himself cannot be thought of as a 'myth'?? Now if we take your 'myth' argument further it makes the devtas and avatars 'myths' also. Did the events that are mentioned in gurbani take place or are they 'myths'? Are the accounts of those 'Gurmukhs' mentioned in the Bhagvat Purana such as Ajamal, Ganika, Prehlad, myths? Did Bhagvan not manifest as Narsingh? All of this is the content of the Bhagavat Purana. I think you may have misunderstood. The myth I was talking about (call it a legend, if you like) is the story of Devi pargat told in some of our historical granths. K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 oops. I apologise. You had me worried there for a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 So tsingh, from a Nirmala perspective, just what are the differences between Sikhi and what is now known as Hinduism? Please do try and answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 I'm sure you recognise that that's a massively complicated question - Nirmalas have written long books on this. Sadly I won't have the time to write long posts unpacking this but Vivek Pradipika has sections on this. So with the forewarning that this is a dumbed down answer - our dharam is the yug dharam, our sidhant is advaitvaad which is sanatan, our ishta is svatantra but aastik (in accordance with the Vedas, as Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale also states), satiguru ji was the yug avatar. hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted January 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 oops. I apologise. You had me worried there for a second. No need to apologise to me, Bhai Sahib. My apologies for not being clear enough. K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 (edited) chatanga1 Ji writes: Harjas Kaur Ji. that was very interesting. tell me, do you view the feminine atributes of gurbani as representing the devi. specificaly where you have quoted "The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities." do you see this great mother as the tiger-riding devi? I wouldn't exactly define Gurbani as consisting of "feminine" or "masculine" aspects per se. Rather Gurbani has discussed the Divine in terms including both masculine and feminine qualities. And I believe this reflects an essential and underlying unity, a harmony which was intended in the duality world of the creation itself. God is not a division, but is the union of all dual aspects equally. So it can honestly be said that God is a Father, God is a Mother. But it can never truthfully be said that God is ONLY a Father, or God is ONLY a Mother, for example. The Abrahamic religions neuter the unity and create an artificial emphasis only on masculine characteristics of the Divine, and this serves as a psychological tension in the society to alienate and dishonor the feminine qualities as something "lesser." To speak of God as only masculine and male has the effect of devaluing the holiness of the feminine Divine qualities. Quite clearly Gurbani states that God is Mata and Pita, without question. We can't make the mistake to say the God is nirguna ONLY. What does Gurbani say? It says the God is niragun AND saragun. ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥ nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek || He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes. ~SGGS Ji ang 250 On the other hand, equally clearly, our relationship to the Vaheguru, whether as man or woman, is as feminine souls to a Divine Bridegroom. This also is very holy imagery and cannot be tarnished with some artificial political correctness. My point only, in commenting on this article about Devi, was to state that in the Vedantic tradition the division between the devatay and the Parabrahm are not set in stone like a Zoroastrian division. Rather, they flow into and out of one another with a qualified dualism, so that philosophically it is equally correct to discuss the Parabrahm as separate from His creation, as equally as being represented by various definable aspects in the creation itself, because everything existing in the creation is only HE Himself. Example of this philosophical concept Gurbani tuuks: ਕੀਟ ਹਸਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਪੂਰ ਸਮਾਨੇ ॥ Kīt hasaṯ mėh pūr samāne. In the ant and in the elephant, He is totally pervading. ~SGGS Ji ang 252 And this philosophical concept is also expressed in this tuuk: ਵਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਊਨ ਨ ਕਤਹੂ ਠਾਇ ॥ vāsuḏev sarbaṯar mai ūn na kaṯhū ṯẖā▫e. The All-pervading Lord is in all places. There is no place where He does not exist. ~SGGS Ji ang 259 "Every explicit duality is an implicit unity." ~ Alan Watts Okay, if some people want to totally invalidate this argument by making broad claim that these Gurbani tuuks don't mean what they say because they are out of context, fine. But I don't think doing an Akhand Paath of whole Gurbani is required to analyze philosophical concepts contained there. I don't believe quoting huge chunks of Gurbani will make the discussion any clearer. For purposes of a DISCUSSION about particular concepts, ideas, and teachings FROM Gurbani which different sampradayas WITHIN Gursikhi have held it is useful to isolate and clarify those. It will be easy to see what is out of context or not as the page citation is there and anyone can read entire shabad. But just making broad claim that Gurbani is out of context every single time I make reference to some tuuk or pauri is just silly. So as I understand it, Gurbani is saying the Lord Himself is presence within His creation, even in the smallest ant and there is nowhere that the great immensity and infinity of the Lord is not existing. Now these tuuks were isolated because this is an extremely POWERFUL concept. This is NOT a concept of the Lord forever separate and distinct from His creation as taught in Abrahamic faiths and philosophies. Just these little tuuks are saying as much as entire Puranas! And that is ALL I have said. That is really something amazing, another proof that Guru Sahibaan One Jyot is authentic Satguru. How rare to have such powerful insights of even Rshis in the few words of Guru. There is BEAUTY here! Extreme beauty, and incredible wisdom in even smallest vaks of Gurbani. And why is this? Because whole of Gurbani is Shabad mantara. Even the beej syllables of Guru Vakia have the POWER of GOD PRESENCE! If anyone is having physical sickness or troubles in their life, put Gurbani on your mind,on your heart, and on your lips. Now, please look at the concept I tried to isolate here. It is a form of qualified Advaita, Achintya-Bheda Abheda, that the God is both dual and distinct and equally ONE with everything that exists. So when someone interprets the Gurbani without the philosophical Vedantic or qualified Advaitic context, I feel that interpretation cannot explain these tuuks and pauris and reconcile them with a God who is always "separate." So an entire philsophical school of thought has been represented in these small tuuks. I do not believe it will be possible for anyone to refute and say this is not true teaching, or that it is taken out of context, even if you quote the whole Gurbani. Because the philosophical point is sound. MOREOVER, it is the truth underlying modern discoveries in physics. So it isn't just a philosophical speculation, there is an underlying mathematical elegance to the concept of qualified non-dualism. Of course, physics doesn't postulate such a concept as God. Nonetheless,the material universe IS understood by modern physicists as being both materiality (sarguna) which is condensed energy encapsulated into form,and pure energy which extends beyond time and space (nirguna) and even that such has a consciousness! There is a dual nature underlying the heart of all things. So there are in fact two distinct perceptions which could accurately describe the human experience. We ARE separate and distinct. And we ARE a unified ONENESS with all that is on an energetic level. This goes to the very heart of wave-particle duality. Omnia vivunt, omnia inter se conexa "Everything is alive; everything is interconnected." ~ Cicero "A human being is a part of the whole, called by us Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty."~ Albert Einstein And this philosophical point is so important,because if we keep describing the smaller spiritual Lights manifest in the world, such as devatay and avtaray as "lesser" and "separate" we are correct on one level. But we are incorrect philosophically by failing to incorporate from the non-dualism aspect. I do not believe Sikhi is a dualism like Zoroastrianism. I believe a strict and literal dualism is an erroneous interpretation and ignores Advaitic elements of nondualism. This fundamentally alters the meaning of a concept of merging with the Divine, and even changes the concept of mukti. The ULTIMATE is Mahasamadhi, final merging and losing the individual"I"ness. So on one level the devatay are separate, consist of the three gunas, etc, caught in time, finite, transient, deluded by Maya's veil and therefore unable to liberate anyone, let alone themselves. HOWEVER, on another level philosophically, all the lights are ONE, and the infinity reaches out to the world infinitely in various perceivable forms. It's not that 330 crore compete with some designated super God in a celestial one-upmanship. But that 330 crore are ONE. I do not believe, nor have I ever disputed that pujas to devatay are not a path to mukti! So why are people making this artificial argument when I have said no such thing? I believe with conviction that Naama Jap, submission to a Satguru, living the daily discipline (sadhana) of a Satguru, having deeksha/initiation is the ONLY MEANS OF MUKTI! And this is corroborated in Hindu scriptures! What is at fault here is the ERRONEOUS MISINTERPRETATION OF HINDU RELIGION, and then blaming the perceived faults of the erroneous misrepresentation as some fault of what I'm saying. Don't misrepresent my own beliefs by tacking them on to misinformed ideas about Hinduism and the various Hindu philosophies. What is puja? What makes it sinful? Is that the Christianized indoctrination that idol worship of false demonic gods is against the Abrahamic god? Because that is not Gurbani teaching. Gurbani teaching is filled with worship and praise of the Divine through the sargun NAAMS of devatay and avataray. But the boat of mukti, is Nama Jap. Of this there has never been dispute. What is problem with aarti? If the heavens and planets do aarti, what's the harm if a Hindu family does aarti in reverential awareness of the power of creation and the magnificence of the Divine? "He is one, the lord and innermost Self of all; of one form, he makes of himself many forms. To him who sees the Self revealed in his own heart belongs eternal bliss–to none else, to none else!" ~Katha Upanishad 2:2:12 If Radharani is Krishna's Hladini shakti, then Krishnas very ability to manifest spiritual ecstacy belongs to the feminine shakti aspect of His own nature. Just as His power of yogmaya comes from His aspect as Adi-Pakriti. This is teaching us that Bhagavan is a Totality reflected in emanations or aspects. But all the aspects are ONE. It doesn't matter if you call as masculine or feminine, ultimately it is all the same power from the same source. Just remember the answer to the seeming contradiction is achintya bheda abheda, "inconceivable Oneness and difference." The God is inconceivabably One and infinitely distinct. The God is all-pervading every being of His creation. Everything is ultimately He. He is the full Reality. Devi and Bhagavan are ONE. Edited January 15, 2010 by HarjasKaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 (edited) Shakti and Brahman are inseparable entities. Maya is not an Abrahamic concept like a Shaitan. It is delusive, not evil. The evil arises from within ourselves due to our ignorance in the net of delusion. But it is God Himself who cast this net. God Himself created the form of Maya, and directs and uses Maya according to His Lila. And IS in FACT MAHAMAYA. So this is a radically different concept that some dualistic Abrahamic or Zoroastrian struggle between elements of good and evil on a celestial level. The struggle over evil is front and center within us. We can't blame it on devatay or corruptions of the material universe. Maya is a force, like gravity. It serves a purpose to keep us inbondage to the earth, without which we wouldn't have embodiment or exist within the creation. The GOD has designed it this way! ਸਦਾ ਮੁਕਤੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੈ ਸਚਾ ਆਪੇ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥ Saḏā mukaṯ āpe hai sacẖā āpe alakẖ lakẖāvaṇi▫ā. ||4|| The True Lord is liberated forever. The Unseen Lord causes Himself to be seen. ਆਪੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪੇ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ Āpe mā▫i▫ā āpe cẖẖā▫i▫ā. He Himself is Maya, and He Himself is the Illusion. ਆਪੇ ਮੋਹੁ ਸਭੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ Āpe moh sabẖ jagaṯ upā▫i▫ā. He Himself has generated emotional attachment throughout the entire universe. ਆਪੇ ਗੁਣਦਾਤਾ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੫॥ Āpe guṇḏāṯā guṇ gāvai āpe ākẖ suṇāvṇi▫ā. ||5|| He Himself is the Giver of Virtue; He Himself sings the Lord's Glorious Praises. He chants them and causes them to be heard. ਆਪੇ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਏ ਆਪੇ ॥ Āpe kare karā▫e āpe. He Himself acts, and causes others to act. ਆਪੇ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪੇ ਆਪੇ ॥ Āpe thāp uthāpe āpe. He Himself establishes and disestablishes. ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰੈ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥ Ŧujẖ ṯe bāhar kacẖẖū na hovai ṯūʼn āpe kārai lāvaṇi▫ā. ||6|| Without You, nothing can be done. You Yourself have engaged all in their tasks. ||6|| ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਆਪਿ ਜੀਵਾਏ ॥ Āpe māre āp jīvā▫e. He Himself kills, and He Himself revives. ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥ Āpe mele mel milā▫e. He Himself unites us, and unites us in Union with Himself. ~SGGS Ji ang 125 According to the philosophical concept of Gurbani teaching, God is somehow also Maya. How can this be explained as other than qualified non-dualism? that the Lord is both distinct and superior to His creation, including Maya and devatay; as well as equally all-pervading the creation which represents nothing less than mere aspects of One Divine Totality both physical and finite in temporary illusive form, and quite incomprehensibly beyond form and infinite. ਆਪਹਿ ਸੁਨਤ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਜਾਸਨ ॥ aapehi sunath aap hee jaasan || He Himself listens to His Own Praises. ਆਪਨ ਆਪੁ ਆਪਹਿ ਉਪਾਇਓ ॥ aapan aap aapehi oupaaeiou || He Himself created Himself. ਆਪਹਿ ਬਾਪ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਮਾਇਓ ॥ aapehi baap aap hee maaeiou || He is His Own Father, He is His Own Mother. ਆਪਹਿ ਸੂਖਮ ਆਪਹਿ ਅਸਥੂਲਾ ॥ aapehi sookham aapehi asathhoolaa || He Himself is subtle and etheric; He Himself is manifest and obvious. ਲਖੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਲਾ ॥੧॥ lakhee n jaaee naanak leelaa ||1|| O Nanak, His wondrous play cannot be understood. ||1|| ~SGGS Ji ang 250 Visitor: Should all the slokas and mantras of the Devi Mahatmya be treated as three separate portions. Swamiji:This was done because they were addressed to Durga, Lakshmi and Saraswati. Were the chapters then spoken from different aspects? No.The three deities are the three stages of consciousness - tamas, rajas and sattva - reached in an ascending order. Visitor: Are the chapters then suitably written to tamas, rajas and sattva? Swamiji:No, because they are all one. It is our incapacity to see all three as one that brings in the distinction. It is the same one guna that appears as tamas, rajas and sattva. Visitor: Then the number of slokas in each portion has no meaning as so many mantras? The numbers vary, unlike in the ashtottara and sahasra - namavalis. Swamiji: There is no significance in the number as such of the slokas. It is all one continuous mantra of prayer to one deity only. Swami Krishananda on Devi Mahatmya According to Sanatana Dharma teaching and per interpretations of Devi Mahatmya itself, there is no difference between different aspects of Devis named, all are ONE Devi. There is no distinction as to Eka Brahman and Devi. Only ONE GOD is being praised in the Upanishad in very highly symbolic and meaningful imagery. Guru Sahibaan employed scholars of the highest order. And not merely any secular scholars, but Sanskrit scholars, holy men, and Mahants. Not everyone had access to the symbolism of Devi Mahatmya. But it is ridiculous to interpret modernly from Abrahamic, Western, or Dualistic ideologies distorting a qualified non-dual philosophy. The true meaning of Devi, She is Parabrahm in manifest form according to the hidden teachings of the Mandukya Upanishad where Devi Mahatmya is found. also you have placed great emphasis on the sargun swaroop of gurbani.do you believe Guru Granth Sahib to be the physical representation of Guru's body ie the cover and the pages and the ink etc or the word itslef to be the spiritual representation of Guru? You will find the Guru's vaak written in ink and printed on pages and bound between the covers of a book. But the Guru's vaak is certainly not the pages and not the ink anymore than the well known saying, "if you say sugar is sweet and lick the word sugar hoping to taste sweetness, you won't find sweetness." So the point is, there is a form which this sargun swaroop takes. And that is the material form of something physically accessible to us as human beings. That form is this body, the angs of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj. The Shabad-Jyot contained within the vibration of the sounds and spiritual meanings of the Guru vak attune our atma to the Divine Paramatma. Sarguna is the vehicle through which the nirgun aspect can manifest. And that is why our boat of mukti is not the pages of this printed book. HOWEVER, we absolutely do show reverence to the angs of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. KNOWING that the sargun swaroop of the Divine Presence is existing beyond the physicality as the sound current. And for this reason the Shabads, the Naam, the Gurbani kirtan, the paath we say, the Vaheguru Gurmantra are the boat of mukti and not the cover/pages. Nonetheless as WORD the DIVINE LIGHT has manifested in acomprehensible form in this world, absolutely. Just as absolutely entire Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj is GURU to bow your hairs to, cover respectfully, cremate when damaged. It is the body-form of a LIVING PRESENCE OF DIVINITY ITSELF. Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is in fact the LIVING PRESENCE OF GURU SAHIB. IT SHOULD NEVER BE SHOWN DISRESPECT OR TREATED AS A BOOK. And this is not a murthi. It is not a representation. It has transmission of Jyoti-Jyot and the Gurgaddhi. GURU GRANTH SAHIB CONTAINS THE BOAT OF MUKTI IN THE KALIYUG! No Vedas are the boat of Mukti. Because as true as Vedas may be, they are only books. You can set them on the ground. Truest Vedas are sung in perfect pronunciation. They TELL about mukti. But the boat of mukti is the Shabad-NAAM. Guru Granth Sahib is SATGURU! Edited January 15, 2010 by HarjasKaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 So when someone interprets the Gurbani without the philosophical Vedantic or qualified Advaitic context, I feel that interpretation cannot explain these tuuks and pauris and reconcile them with a God who is always "separate." So an entire philsophical school of thought has been represented in these small tuuks. I dont think that gurbani anywhere has said that God is seperate from his creation. moreso, gurbani has stated many times that the creation is within God. But where there is no creation and space only, do you think there is no God there? why does Gurbani have to be looked at thru vedantic glasses? When did vedant become a part of sikhi? Tsingh, i wished to ask you this question as well, why the nirmalas only see things with vedantic vision? and whether you can tell me if Guru Nanak did as well. khima. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 is the anhad shabad sargun or nirgun? The acoustics of sound of the spoken word is sargun and not lasting. The chelawill speak the Divine Name. The sound uttered is audible to theears. This is sarguna, because sound is a form. Yet, contained withinthe sound, is a sound current vibration which acts on the vrittis, thethoughts within the mind, and opens the lotus blossom ofthe heart. Here the mind takes it's cleansing bath, becausethe NAAM washes our vasanas, the tendencies we have due to past karma and bad actions. A nameis just a representation of God. But the beej syllables of mantraempowered by a Satguru IS IN FACT the EKONKAR, Eko Brahman. It is the boat of mukti because it has the power to transform us. "Katyayana stated that shabda "speech" is eternal (nitya), as is artha "meaning", and their mutual relation. According to Patanjali, sphoṭa ("meaning") is not identical with shabda, but rather its permanent aspect, while dhvani "sound, acoustics" is its ephemereal aspect. Om, or Aum, a sacred syllable of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism is considered to be the first resonating vibrational sound within an individual being. It also denotes the non-dualistic universe as a whole. In Buddhism, Om corresponds to the crown chakra and white light. Bhartrihari on the other hand held a shabda-advaita position, identifying shabda as indivisible, unifying cognition and linguistic performance, ultimately identical with Brahman." Shabda ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦ ਹੋਤ ਝੁਨਕਾਰ ॥ anehadh sabadh hoth jhunakaar || The Unstruck Sound-current of the Shabad, the Word of God, resounds in that place, ਜਿਹ ਪਉੜ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥੨॥ jih pourrhae prabh sree gopaal ||2|| where the Supreme Lord God abides. ||2|| ~SGGS Ji ang 1162 ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਉ ॥ Bīj manṯar har kīrṯan gā▫o. Sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and the Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra. ਆਗੈ ਮਿਲੀ ਨਿਥਾਵੇ ਥਾਉ ॥ Āgai milī nithāve thā▫o. Even the homeless find a home in the world hereafter. ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥ Gur pūre kī cẖarṇī lāg. Fall at the feet of the Perfect Guru; ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਾ ਸੋਇਆ ਜਾਗੁ ॥੧॥ Janam janam kā so▫i▫ā jāg. ||1|| you have slept for so many incarnations - wake up! ||1|| ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪੁ ਜਪਲਾ ॥ Har har jāp japlā. Chant the Chant of the Lord's Name, Har, Har. ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਾਸੈ ਭਉਜਲੁ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਰਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Gur kirpā ṯe hirḏai vāsai bẖa▫ojal pār parlā. ||1|| rahā▫o. By Guru's Grace, it shall be enshrined within your heart, and you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean. ~SGGS Ji ang 891 The unheard sound is not perceived with the sense organs. It is called "unstruck" because nothing from the created realm has made this sound. This unheard/imperceivable sound is emanating from the higher level of nirguna, because it arises out of the Nada Brahman and is in fact coming from the Pranava, the OM. And the OM is nirguna. "According to particle physics, electrons are not particles all of the time, but sometimes behave like waves of light. The current consensus is that they are both wave-like and particle-like, as is all matter. In fact, in the world of quantum physics, it seems these elementary "particles" (including electrons) don't really exist at all. What does exist are relationships, correlations, tendencies to actualize from a multifaceted set of potentials. A quantum physicist might say that electrons, like all other subatomic particles, are described by a "probability density state." At this level it is strikingly evident that there may be no objective physical reality at all. What the scientific community once thought was there in the sub-atomic realm and what the educated world was taught to perceive as real simply does not exist. The new physics tells us that matter may actually be nothing more than a series of patterns out of focus and that subatomic "particles" aren't really made of energy, but simply are energy! The subatomic world of electrons, protons, and neutrons maythus be viewed as patterns of vibration within what Rupert Sheldrake calls a morphogenetic field, an organizing field that underlies a system's structure." Quantum Physics: Sensing Unbroken Wholeness ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥ Gurmukẖ ḏīsai barahm pasār. The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥ Gurmukẖ ṯarai guṇī▫āʼn bisthār. The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Gurmukẖ nāḏ beḏ bīcẖār. The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas. ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ Bin gur pūre gẖor anḏẖār. ||1|| Without the Perfect Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness. ||1|| ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ Mere man gur gur karaṯ saḏā sukẖ pā▫ī▫ai. O my mind, calling on the Guru, eternal peace is found. ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਿਓ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਅਪਣਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Gur upḏes har hirḏai vasi▫o sās girās apṇā kẖasam ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai. ||1|| rahā▫o. Following the Guru's Teachings, the Lord comes to dwell within the heart; I meditate on my Lord and Master with every breath and morsel of food. ||1||Pause|| ~SGGS JI ang 1270 What is the NAAD? Naad in Sanskrit is defined as sound, also as vibration and movement. "The Uncreated Brahman is Unmoving (Nispanda); the created world is moving and anything that moves makes sound. Sound is the basic phenomenon by which man apprehends the world. All else such as touch and feel, form and color, taste, and smell are all complex sounds... Mantra Sastra states that Bija Mantras (Root Mantras sounding the Sanskrit letters) represent the Natural Names. The breath consisting of Inspiration and Expiration emits the sound of Prana-Bija Mantra, Hamsa. The out-breath sound is Ham and the in-breath sound is Sa." Sound Soham (so 'ham सो ऽहम्) is the Sanskrit for "I myself" or "It is I". Inextricably linked with hamsa[1] (हंस in Sanskrit), soham[2] is a voiceless mantra[3] and as such used notably on its own, in the meditation practice ajapa japa[4] and in the kriya practice shabda sanchalana[5]... Air is exhaled with the sound SA and inhaled with the sound HAM. Then reciting of the mantra HAMSA is continuous[78]—Vijnana Bhairava , 155a The meaning of the phrase might be expressed as follows: "I" am obviously not this body because the physical constituents of the body are changing every moment. Ultimately, the body dies. Atman the soul or self never dies – it is "That". "That" is Absolute Reality. It is the witness of all, it is what the mind does through the body. This self is always on the path of progression, which according to Shaivistic thought is Chaitanya or consciousness. The Shiva Sutra speaks of 'Chaitanyam – Atma'. Consequently, Aham, myself, is Sah, that Self. This is called spiritual awareness." Soham Listen to this powerful philosophical concept spoken above! The body dies, is corruptible and caught in time and under the delusion of Maya's web. But the soul within it is the SELF who never dies! WE ourselves are both niragun and saragun. WE are both the reflection of light chidabhasa and the eternal witness kutastha Caitanya which is never corruptible, but is eternal, is Brahman Consciousness. It is the LIGHT within you, Prakash! ਊਹਾਂ ਸੂਰਜ ਨਾਹੀ ਚੰਦ ॥ oohaan sooraj naahee chandh || Neither the sun nor the moon are there, ਆਦਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਕਰੈ ਅਨੰਦ ॥੫॥ aadh niranjan karai anandh ||5|| but the Primal Immaculate Lord celebrates there. ||5|| ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਿ ਪਿੰਡਿ ਸੋ ਜਾਨੁ ॥ so brehamandd pindd so jaan || Know that He is in the universe, and in the body as well. ਮਾਨ ਸਰੋਵਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥ maan sarovar kar eisanaan || Take your cleansing bath in the Mansarovar Lake. ਸੋਹੰ ਸੋ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਹੈ ਜਾਪ ॥ sohan so jaa ko hai jaap || Chant ""Sohang"" - ""He is me."" ~SGGS Ji ang 1162 "Om is imperishable. All name in this world is perishable, for it goes with the corresponding form. But this Universal Form is imperishable, this Universal Name also is imperishable, comprehends everything. Om ityetadaksharam: Om is Akshara, and Akshara is imperishable. Tasyopavyakhyanam, bhutam, bhavat, bhavishyaditisarvam Omkara eva; Yaccanyat trikalatitam tadapyomkara eva... All that was in the past, all that is now in the present, all that will be in the future, all this is Om, because Om has no past, present and future; the Universal has no time. What a grand description of Om is given in the Mandukya Upanishad! Whatever is in time, as past, present and future, is Om. Not merely this; that which is above time, also, is Om. Om has a twofold nature, the temporal and the eternal: it is Sabda and Sabdatita. It is constituted of A, U, M, representing all creation; but it has also a fourth nature which transcends these distinctions of A, U, M. It is called Amatra and Chaturtha-Bhava: The soundless form of Om is Amatra, the immeasurable,and it is not audible to the ears. This Amatra, or the immeasurable, eternal nature of Om is not a sound or even a mere vibration, but it is just existence, pure and simple, known as Satchidananda-Svarupa - Existence-Consciousness-Bliss." Swami Krishananda on Mandukya Upanishad You see Swami ji's insightful explanation of the Mandukya Upanishad teaching that there are four arms of this reality of the Sound Current of the Primal Naad, also called in Vedas as EK AKSHARA OMKARA. The One word/sound which has created the creation. These are represented as the four arms of MahaVishnu, the All-pervading Light. The four arms represent the four states of consciousness, 3 of which are in time, material and of the three gunas. The fourth transcends that which is sargun, and is nirguna. That fourth is no longer sound which can be heard, nor slightest vibration which can be perceived. It is pureTruth, Consciousness, and Bliss beyond all perceivable forms, infinite,imperishable, undying, beyond Time. It is AKAAL. Akaal is an infinity which contains within itself even the finite, because what is finite contains the infinite self-effulgent Light covered only with the veil of illusion. The AKAAL is Itself, all-pervading the finite creation. The All-pervading Light is present in a tiny ant, as per Gurbani. The finite cannot be a limit to the infinite, because the infinite has no limits. If there could be limits to His power, He would not be infinite. It's just that in guna form, the finite can't comprehend the infinite. But pervading within, is the eternal witness, Kutastha Caitanya, reflecting as if in a mirror the brilliant light which shines in our intellectual conscious perception of life and is the chidabhasa of the jeev. But what is being reflected that our minds are mere reflections of? It is the Parabrahm. It has always been the Parabrahm. It is nothing but Parabrahm. Existence itself is the illusion, without the veil of which the creation would not exist. Duality is the illusion, what is the true reality is undying Oneness and unity. There is no such thing as Durga. There is no such thing as Kalika. There is only the One without a second, because to postulate a million devis and a million devas is only to cast a reflection in millions of mirrors of One Eternally Shining Light. ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਭੁਗਤਾ ॥ aapae karathaa aapae bhugathaa || | He Himself is the Creator, and He Himself is the Enjoyer. ਆਪੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਮੁਕਤਾ ॥ aapae thripathaa aapae mukathaa || He Himself is satisfied, and He Himself is liberated. ~SGGS Ji ang 1035 ਏਕਾ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੇਖਾਲਿਆ । aykaa aykankaaru|ikhi daykhaaliaa| By writing 1 (One) in the beginning, it has been shown that Ekankar,God, who subsumes all forms in Him is only one (and not two or three). ~Vaar 3 Pauri 15, line 1 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji "Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow; and without trees, we cannot make paper. The cloud is essential for the paper to exist. If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either. So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are." ~ Thich Nhat Hanh, Interbeing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarjasDevi Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 (edited) how does naam exist in the material world when it is spoken? And what if it is not spoken but mentally remmebered? That which the meaning is, is nirguna. We cannot grasp the infinity in the meaning. So whether we mentally remember it or not, we are understanding only in part, not as wholeness. NAAM is not diminished in any way by our lapses or by our inability to grasp the meaning within the Divine Names and/or Gurmantr. Likewise, if we interiorize the NAAM, we have in fact by mental repetition initiated a vibration of the NAAM within our minds. The spoken sound which is heard by the physical senses is the part of the Shabda which is sargun. The vibration/spanda of the Shabda is already vibrating from the Primal Naad. What's the Primal NAAD? It is the Pranava, the OM. The potency of the OM/AUM is in the Nada bindu, the point. The AUM represents the world of three gunas, as well as the three Mahadevas: Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesh. It represents the time-space dimensions of sansaara: Creation, preservation, dissolution. But the Nada bindu represents the fourth: that which is outside of and beyond time and space. The Nada bindu IS the Shabda Brahman. "5(a). Then the Matra (or Mantra) beyond the Sahasrara (thousand-rayed) is explained (viz.,) should be explained. An adept in Yoga who bestrides the Hamsa (bird) thus (viz., contemplates on Om) is not affected by Karmic influences or by tens of Crores of sins. The first Matra has Agni as its Devata (presiding deity); the second, Vayu as its Devata; the next Matra is resplendent like the sphere of the sun and the last, Ardha-Matra the wise know as belonging to Varuna (the presiding deity of water). 8. Each of these Matras has indeed three Kalas (parts). This is called Omkara." Nada Bindu Upanishad The Sahasrara chakra, also called the thousand-petalled lotus is located at the Dasam Duara, the opening/unfolding of which gives one the Darshan of Vaheguru. The Hamsa bird, so called because resembles the two lobes of the brain looks like a bird, the ephemeral yogic"swan." It refers also to the HamSa, or SoHam, the ancient yogic mantram, "I am HE." The Omkara is so called because it was the vibration of the Nada which gave rise to the creation. Everything that exists comes from the vibrating sound current of the NAAD, Pranava, Eka Brahman, EK OMKARA, Ek Akshara, Ekonkar. "17. That which is beyond these, (viz.,) Para-Brahman which is beyond (the above Matras), the pure, the all-pervading, beyond Kalas, the ever resplendent and the source of all Jyotis (light) should be known. 18. When the mind goes beyond the organs and the Gunas and is absorbed,having no separate existence and no mental action, then (the Guru)should instruct him (as to his further course of development)... That (portion of the) Karma which is done in former births and called Prarabdha does not at all affect the person (Tattva-Jnani), as there is no rebirth to him. As the body that exists in the dreaming state is untrue, so is this body. Where then is rebirth to a thing that is illusory ? How can a thing have any existence, when there is no birth (to it)?" Nada Bindu Upanishad Veers, you have been making a big case that the God is Ajooni, beyond birth and Akaal, beyond time, undying. Some have said therefore, the God cannot incarnate as an avataara. Or, the God cannot be equal to His lesser lights, the devatay. Yet, in the non-dual reality, we are also an aspect which is unborn and undying. Because our existence itself is part of the veil of Maya, illusion. Because "we" are "He." So there is this artificial separation which does not philosophically exist in non-dualism. Because of the non-dual element of this philosophy it can be shown Chandi is really only Parabrahm. Just as an avatara is Parabrahm. Just as we speak the Divine Naams of Shiva, Krishna, Jaganatha Gopala, Govinda, Raam, Niranjana, and these being the names of devatay and avtaray because on the non-dual level there is no separation from Parabrahm. On the non-dual level there is no Shiva, no Krishna, no Raam, no Durga, no Devi. There is only the One. On the non-dual level there are no mirrors and no reflections, there is only Light. Sa hovᾱca, mahimᾱna evaiṣᾱm ete, trayas trimśat tv eva devᾱ iti: "All these three thousand and all that I mentioned - they are not really gods. They are only manifestations of the thirty-three. The thirty-three are the principal manifestations, and others are only their glories, radiances, manifestations, magnificences or forces, energies, powers." "But what are these thirty-three?" katame te trayas triṁśad iti. "The thirty-three gods are eight Vasus, eleven Rudras, twelve Ādityas - they make thirty-one (ekatriṁśat) - then Indra and Prajāpati - these make thirty-three gods." "Now, these are called gods in a very special sense, and there is a meaning behind their being designated as gods. The term 'god' means a power that causally works inside a form. That which regulates from inside any particular individual, groups of individuals, etc. is the god of that individual or the god of that group of individuals. In a broad sense we may say, the cause of anything is the deity of that thing. Now again we have to bring to our mind the meaning of the word 'cause'. The deity does not operate as an external cause. The sun as the cause of the eye is not the sun that is ninety-three million miles away, disconnected from the eye in space. That principle which controls the eye or any other organ has something to do internally also with the structure of the organ. Likewise is the case with every other function. The god of any particular phenomenon is the invisible presence. So it will be mentioned here in the following passages that every visible object has a presiding deity inside. Even the hands cannot be lifted unless there is a force inside; the eyes cannot wink unless there is a force inside the eyes, likewise with every other function or limb of the individual. What are these Vasus, Rudras and Ādityas? They have to be explained. They are not far away from us. They are immanent within us." The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad "Katame rudrᾱiti: "Who are the Rudras?" The Rudrasare inside us. They are not in Mount Kailaśa, as theology would tell you. They are inside us, operating in a particular manner. The powers which constitute the Rudras are the ten senses and the mind. They are eleven in number. "The ten senses and the mind make eleven. These are the Rudras." They make you do whatever they like.They are the controllers of your system. You cannot do anything independent of the senses and the requisites of the mind. What can the body do? What can the individual as a whole do, except in the direction pointed out by the senses andthe mind? - katame rudrᾱ iti. daśeme puruṣeprᾱṇᾱḥ ᾱtmaikᾱdaśaḥ.Te yadᾱsmᾱtśarīrᾱn martyᾱd utkrᾱmanti, atha rodayanti, tad yadrodayanti, tasmᾱd rudrᾱ iti: Rudu is to cry, in Sanskrit. "When the senses and the mind leave the body, they make one cry in anguish." One is in a state of grief, and weeps in sorrow due to pain of severance of the senses and the mind from the physical abode. The individual concerned also cries (when they are leaving) and the other people connected with that individual also cry at the time of the departure of what we call the soul in the individual, which is nothing but this total function of the senses and the mind. Inasmuch as these eleven, the senses and the mind, subject the individual to their dictates and make you yield to their demands and clamours, and make you cry in agony if you violate their laws, they are called Rudras." Brihadaranyaka Upanishad ਦਸਮੀ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰ ਬਸਿ ਕੀਨੇ ॥ dhasamee dhas dhuaar bas keenae || The tenth day of the lunar cycle: Overpower the ten sensory and motor organs; ਮਨਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਿ ਲੀਨੇ ॥ man santhokh naam jap leenae || your mind will be content, as you chant the Naam. ਕਰਨੀ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਜਸੁ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥ karanee suneeai jas gopaal || With your ears, hear the Praises of the Lord of the World; ਨੈਨੀ ਪੇਖਤ ਸਾਧ ਦਇਆਲ ॥ nainee paekhath saadhh dhaeiaal || with your eyes, behold the kind, Holy Saints. ~SGGS Ji ang 298 "31. The Yogin being in the Siddhasana (posture) and practising the Vaishnavi-Mudra, should always hear the internal sound through the right ear... 32. The sound which he thus practises makes him deaf to all external sounds. Having overcome all obstacles, he enters the Turya state within fifteen days. 33. In the beginning of his practice, he hears many loud sounds. They gradually increase in pitch and are heard more and more subtly. 34.At first, the sounds are like those proceeding from the ocean, clouds,kettle-drum and cataracts; in the middle (stage) those proceeding from Mardala (a musical instrument), bell and horn. 35. At the last stage, those proceeding from tinkling bells, flute, Vina (a musical instrument) and bees. Thus he hears many such sounds more and more subtle. 36. When he comes to that stage when the sound of the great kettle-drum is being heard, he should try to distinguish only sounds more and more subtle. 37. He may change his concentration from the gross sound to the subtle, or from the subtle to the gross, but he should not allow his mind to be diverted from them towards others. 38. The mind having at first concentrated itself on any one sound fixes firmly to that and is absorbed in it. 39. It (the mind) becoming insensible to the external impressions, becomes one with the sound as milk with water and then becomes rapidly absorbed in Chidakasa (the Akasa where Chit prevails). 40.Being indifferent towards all objects, the Yogin having controlled his passions, should by continual practice concentrate his attention upon the sound which destroys the mind. 41. Having abandoned all thoughts and being freed from all actions, he should always concentrate his attention on the sound and (then) his Chitta becomes absorbed in it. 42-43(a).Just as the bee drinking the honey (alone) does not care for the odour,so the Chitta which is always absorbed in sound, does not long for sensual objects, as it is bound by the sweet smell of Nada and has abandoned its flitting nature. The serpent Chitta through listening to the Nada is entirely absorbed in it and becoming unconscious of everything concentrates itself on the sound. The sound serves the purpose of a sharp goad to control the maddened elephant – Chitta which roves in the pleasure-garden of the sensual objects. It serves the purpose of a snare for binding the deer – Chitta. It also serves the purpose of a shore to the ocean waves of Chitta. The sound proceeding from Pranava which is Brahman is of the nature of effulgence; the mind becomes absorbed in it; that is the supreme seat of Vishnu. The sound exists till there is the Akasic conception (Akasa-Sankalpa). Beyond this, is the (Asabda) soundless Para-Brahman which is Paramatman. The mind exists so long as there is sound, but with its (sound's cessation) there is the state called Unmani of Manas (viz., the state of being above the mind). 49(a). This sound is absorbed in the Akshara (indestructible) and the soundless state is the supreme seat. 50(a). The mind which along with Prana (Vayu) has (its) Karmic affinities destroyed by the constant concentration upon Nada is absorbed in the unstained One. There is no doubt of it. 51(a). Many myriads of Nadas and many more of Bindus – (all) become absorbed in the Brahma-Pranava sound. 52(a). Being freed from all states and all thoughts whatever, the Yogin remains like one dead. He is a Mukta. There is no doubt about this. After that, he does not at any time hear the sounds of conch or Dundubhi (large kettle drum)." Nada Bindu Upanishad The beej/seed of all mantras is the Pranava, the OM. And the root power underlying all creation and reuniting it with Creator, is the power of Divine love which vibrates eternally beginning with the outer, grosser level of our physical being, the japa, and gradually being incorporated deeper within our minds and hearts until it becomes the Divine Light of our very own face. ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਸੁ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਸੋਵੈ ॥ jaagath rehai s kabahu n sovai || One who remains awake, never sleeps. ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥ theen thilok samaadhh palovai || The three qualities and the three worlds vanish, in the state of Samaadhi. ਬੀਜ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਲੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਰਹੈ ॥ beej manthra lai hiradhai rehai || He takes the Beej Mantra, the Seed Mantra, and keeps it in his heart. ਮਨੂਆ ਉਲਟਿ ਸੁੰਨ ਮਹਿ ਗਹੈ ॥੫॥ manooaa oulatt sunn mehi gehai ||5|| Turning his mind away from the world, he focuses on the cosmic void of the absolute Lord. ||5|| ਜਾਗਤੁ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਅਲੀਆ ਭਾਖੈ ॥ jaagath rehai n aleeaa bhaakhai || He remains awake, and he does not lie. ਪਾਚਉ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਬਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਖੈ ॥ paacho eindhree bas kar raakhai || He keeps the five sensory organs under his control. ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਾਖੀ ਰਾਖੈ ਚੀਤਿ ॥ gur kee saakhee raakhai cheeth || He cherishes in his consciousness the Guru's Teachings. ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥੬॥ man than arapai kirasan pareeth ||6|| He dedicates his mind and body to the Lord's Love. ||6|| ਕਰ ਪਲਵ ਸਾਖਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥ kar palav saakhaa beechaarae || He considers his hands to be the leaves and branches of the tree. ਅਪਨਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰੇ ॥ apanaa janam n jooai haarae || He does not lose his life in the gamble. ਅਸੁਰ ਨਦੀ ਕਾ ਬੰਧੈ ਮੂਲੁ ॥ asur nadhee kaa bandhhai mool || He plugs up the source of the river of evil tendencies. ਪਛਿਮ ਫੇਰਿ ਚੜਾਵੈ ਸੂਰੁ ॥ pashhim faer charraavai soor || Turning away from the west, he makes the sun rise in the east. ਅਜਰੁ ਜਰੈ ਸੁ ਨਿਝਰੁ ਝਰੈ ॥ ajar jarai s nijhar jharai || He bears the unbearable, and the drops trickle down within; ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਸਿਉ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਕਰੈ ॥੭॥ jagannaathh sio gosatt karai ||7|| then, he speaks with the Lord of the world. ||7|| ਚਉਮੁਖ ਦੀਵਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ choumukh dheevaa joth dhuaar || The four-sided lamp illuminates the Tenth Gate. ਪਲੂ ਅਨਤ ਮੂਲੁ ਬਿਚਕਾਰਿ ॥ paloo anath mool bichakaar || The Primal Lord is at the center of the countless leaves. ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ਲੇ ਆਪੇ ਰਹੈ ॥ sarab kalaa lae aapae rehai || He Himself abides there with all His powers. ਮਨੁ ਮਾਣਕੁ ਰਤਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਹੈ ॥੮॥ man maanak rathanaa mehi guhai ||8|| He weaves the jewels into the pearl of the mind. ||8|| ਮਸਤਕਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਦੁਆਲੈ ਮਣੀ ॥ masathak padham dhuaalai manee || The lotus is at the forehead, and the jewels surround it. ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥ maahi niranjan thribhavan dhhanee || Within it is the Immaculate Lord, the Master of the three worlds. ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲ ਬਾਜੇ ॥ panch sabadh niramaaeil baajae || The Panch Shabad, the five primal sounds, resound and vibrate their in their purity. ਢੁਲਕੇ ਚਵਰ ਸੰਖ ਘਨ ਗਾਜੇ ॥ dtulakae chavar sankh ghan gaajae || The chauris - the fly brushes wave, and the conch shells blare like thunder. ਦਲਿ ਮਲਿ ਦੈਤਹੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥ dhal mal dhaithahu guramukh giaan || The Gurmukh tramples the demons underfoot with his spiritual wisdom. ਬੇਣੀ ਜਾਚੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੯॥੧॥ baenee jaachai thaeraa naam ||9||1|| Baynee longs for Your Name, Lord. ||9||1|| ~SGGS Ji ang 974 Edited January 15, 2010 by HarjasKaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaljug Posted January 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 (edited) Devi and Bhagavan are ONE. This is where your mistake lies. (The rest of your post was very nicely put and a wonderful description of why Gurbani uplifts women and men both without turning into some political feminist debate, but you could have done it without the inessential quotes which would have halved the length of your post and made it more accessible.) The fact that the One permeates and is the creation does not mean that a part is equivalent to the whole - Devi is no more Bhagvan than a leaf is Akal. Do you disagree that Gurbani contradicts the belief described in the Srimad Devi Bhagavatam that Devi is the Supreme Personality? Also, you did not actually answer Chatanga's questions, so I'm repeating it for you to answer: Harjas Kaur Ji. that was very interesting. tell me, do you view the feminine atributes of gurbani as representing the devi. specificaly where you have quoted "The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities." do you see this great mother as the tiger-riding devi? K. Edited January 15, 2010 by Kaljug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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