Singh Sabha Movement?

[singh2]

Singh2

I beg you not to turn this into an IOSS and KA thread.

I have no intention in doing that. My reply was to tony who is spreading misinformation on Nihungs .

[singh2]

Singh2

I beg you not to turn this into an IOSS and KA thread.

Regarding Singh Sabha. We have to admit that its influence has been pretty pervasive on orthodox Sikhi. There are issues that need to be confronted about it (i.e. selective interpretation) but also there is much good that came from it.

I think one of the most important areas is how SSs discarded an "Indian" paradigm of interpreting Sikhi to one that was more inline with the rational 'enlightened' paradigm. One criticism of traditional schools is their lack of systematic exposition and failure to open things up using the English language which has become an international communication standard.

The use of what is referred to "critical methodology" is also frequently absent from the research of traditional schools. The point that we cannot hide away from the modern world in a bubble of sanatanism is valid in my opinion. Globally influential schools of thought need to be faced up to by Sikhs. In the face of modern science and research we cant afford to hide away in metaphoric caves. If we do, then people will create their own interpretations of SIkhi, without any SIkh involement. We can already see that has happened under the guise of academia. We cannot deny the radical change (both good and bad) that western thinking has brought to the world in terms of ideas and technology. The problem with some Sikh jathas is that they seem oblivious or incapable of addressing this. Plus they fail to honestly confront divisive issues like caste preferring a conservative "see no evil, hear no evil" approach.

People talk of the SS attitude towards "sants", personally I think it was a projection of their understanding of the egalitarian principles inherent in Sikhi. Their theoretical position was that all Sikhs are equal, so the worship of other Sikhs is in stark contradiction to that. Priesthood was also denounced for similar reasons. They essentialy tried to bring Sikhi inline with a democratic theocracy. We do have the point that even during the days of dasmesh pita the term Bhai was much more common for pious Sikhs than Sant. But Sukhmani Sahib also bears strongly on this matter.

My thinking is that we need to retain and build on positive gains from the movement and perhaps discard some elements after a rational debate amongst the quom. This rational debate thing seems difficult though, given how some of our people seem incapable of this.

Dalsingh101

Singh sabha movement was basically started to arrest conversion of sikhs to christianity and arya samaj. Four sikh students of amritsar had agreed to convert to Christianity and singh sabha took birth after that. Before that arya samaj was converting sikhs by deceit.

Singh sbaha movement did not introduce any new religious concepts in sikhism at all. Our scriptures are guidelines for the philosophy of sikhism. They are not changeable and neither we need to conform to western thought at all.

While singh sabha as a whole did a wonderful work in arresting apostasy and conversion among sikhs Lahore singh sbaha played a traitrous role also. When thakar singh sndhawalia was mobilising sikhs for helping Dalip singh to come to Punjab and retake sikh rule , Lahore singh sabha sided with british and disowned sikh struggle. Of course this did not affect the view of common sikhs about dalip singh but their traitrous attitude is all in history.

[dalsingh101]

Singh2

That of one of the issues we have to discuss in this debate. Did some of the Singh Sabhas step over the mark and wallow in sycophancy? Their unconditional support for the British is conspicuous. I think at one point they were going to label themselves as the "Loyal Singh Sabha", they also turned a blind eye to the innovations introduced by the Brits in the Amrit ceremony, which added a new line promising loyalty to the British crown. Given their shrill noise about Hindu interpolations in Sikhi, it seems hypocritical that they did not strongly object to this British interference.

I am aware of Thakar Singh Sandawalia's attempts to rouse Dalip Singh (which worked). I am not not so clear as to the relationship between Thakar and the Singh Sabha, I had thought he was a leading part in the movement. Can anyone shed light on this matter? Please avoid pages of C&P in doing this though!

Edited August 28, 2009 by dalsingh101

[singh2]

Singh2

That of one of the issues we have to discuss in this debate. Did some of the Singh Sabhas step over the mark and wallow in sycophancy? Their unconditional support for the British is conspicuous. I think at one point they were going to label themselves as the "Loyal Singh Sabha", they also turned a blind eye to the innovations introduced by the Brits in the Amrit ceremony, which added a new line promising loyalty to the British crown. Given their shrill noise about Hindu interpolations in Sikhi, it seems hypocritical that they did not strongly object to this British interference.

I am aware of Thakar Singh Sandawalia's attempts to rouse Dalip Singh (which worked). I am not not so clear as to the relationship between Thakar and the Singh Sabha, I had thought he was a leading part in the movement. Can anyone shed light on this matter? Please avoid pages of C&P in doing this though!

Thakar singh Sandhawalia was a cousin of Dalip singh. he was from village Raja sansi near Amritsar where present airport of Amritsar is located. After fall of sikh rule Hindus under garb of arya samaj were converting sikhs into hinduism. Number of sikhs strted falling.

He was the one who started taking parbhat pheris in Amritsar villages preaching sikhism and firing an inspiration among sikhs. he is the one who founded Singh sabha at Amritsar. In essence he is the originator of singh sabha movement.

[Mithar]

I don't believe the story about Nihang persecution as told by the Sanatanists. I think that the Nihang power after the death of Akali Phula Singh began to decline both in terms of influence and militarily even before the British had taken over the Punjab. As Major G. Smyth who fought Sikhs during the Anglo Sikh wars writes in his book, the quality of Nihangs as soldiers had greatly decreased after the death of Akali Phula Singh and by the time of the 1st Anglo Sikh war to the point where they played an insignificant part within the Panth. They were powerful no doubt during Akali Phula Singh's lifetime, but their power and influence in the Panth greatly decreased by the time the 1st Anglo Sikh war started.

As for the story of Akalis using deceptive methods to take over the Akal Takht is nothing short of a myth, with absolutely no written proof. Kartar Singh Jhabbar a Virk and one of the bravest sons from the land of Sandal Bar was a fearless lion. His Akali Jatha were mostly all ex soldiers who had fought during the 1st world war. To accuse these men of cowardice is nothing short of a lie and is a RSS plot to rewrite Sikh history to belittle Sikh heroes in our eyes.

[singh2]

I don't believe the story about Nihang persecution as told by the Sanatanists. I think that the Nihang power after the death of Akali Phula Singh began to decline both in terms of influence and militarily even before the British had taken over the Punjab. As Major G. Smyth who fought Sikhs during the Anglo Sikh wars writes in his book, the quality of Nihangs as soldiers had greatly decreased after the death of Akali Phula Singh and by the time of the 1st Anglo Sikh war to the point where they played an insignificant part within the Panth. They were powerful no doubt during Akali Phula Singh's lifetime, but their power and influence in the Panth greatly decreased by the time the 1st Anglo Sikh war started.

As for the story of Akalis using deceptive methods to take over the Akal Takht is nothing short of a myth, with absolutely no written proof. Kartar Singh Jhabbar a Virk and one of the bravest sons from the land of Sandal Bar was a fearless lion. His Akali Jatha were mostly all ex soldiers who had fought during the 1st world war. To accuse these men of cowardice is nothing short of a lie and is a RSS plot to rewrite Sikh history to belittle Sikh heroes in our eyes.

You may not believe that story but it is correct. I havetwo books written by Euoprean travellers to punjab . They testify to the animosity Birish had with Nihungs.

Akalis were formed later. They were sikhs.

Let us keep that separate from this thread.

Edited August 28, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

As for the story of Akalis using deceptive methods to take over the Akal Takht is nothing short of a myth, with absolutely no written proof. Kartar Singh Jhabbar a Virk and one of the bravest sons from the land of Sandal Bar was a fearless lion. His Akali Jatha were mostly all ex soldiers who had fought during the 1st world war. To accuse these men of cowardice is nothing short of a lie and is a RSS plot to rewrite Sikh history to belittle Sikh heroes in our eyes.

he did a lot for sikhs and was a brave man. So were other sikhs of the time. My humble request do not divide sikhs into warring factions.

[dalsingh101]

Thakar singh Sandhawalia was a cousin of Dalip singh. he was from village Raja sansi near Amritsar where present airport of Amritsar is located. After fall of sikh rule Hindus under garb of arya samaj were converting sikhs into hinduism. Number of sikhs strted falling.

He was the one who started taking parbhat pheris in Amritsar villages preaching sikhism and firing an inspiration among sikhs. he is the one who founded Singh sabha at Amritsar. In essence he is the originator of singh sabha movement.

What about his betrayal? What do we know about that?

[singh2]

What about his betrayal? What do we know about that?

\

What is his betrayal? Tell us.

[dalsingh101]

Also you posted:

I havetwo books written by Euoprean travellers to punjab . They testify to the animosity Birish had with Nihungs.

Can you quote and reference them please?

[singh2]

Also you posted:

Can you quote and reference them please?

Dalsingh101

They were travellers from europe one french and another german who toured Punjab one during Maharaja Ranjit singh's time and the otehr during sher singh's time. They met both of them. I have to search my library to find the books.

They wanted to visit harmandir sahib but Nihungs ( Most probably under Baba Bishan singh) did not want them to enter Hramanidr sahib.

We can start another thread on that.

[singh2]

\

What is his betrayal? Tell us.

I understand what you are telling.

The singh sabhas were divided later. Amritsar singh sabha and lahore singh sabha. Thakar singh had influenece on Amnritsar singh sabha.Whereas Amritsar singh sabha sided with Dalip singh , it was lahore singh sabha that sent a petition to Govt disowning Dalip singh. That time Thakar singh had gone to French held territory Pondicherry. From there he was waging a war against british as Prime Minister of Khalsa Govt. in exile.

A good book on Maharaja daliop singh is by Peter campbell" The Maharaja's Box."

Edited August 28, 2009 by singh2

[dalsingh101]

Dalsingh101

They were travellers from europe one french and another german who toured Punjab one during Maharaja Ranjit singh's time and the otehr during sher singh's time. They met both of them. I have to search my library to find the books.

They wanted to visit harmandir sahib but Nihungs ( Most probably under Baba Bishan singh) did not want them to enter Hramanidr sahib.

We can start another thread on that.

Please do find the material and post it. Aren't these accounts in Madra and Singh's Siques, Tigers and Thieves?

Edited August 28, 2009 by dalsingh101

[singh2]

Please do find the material and post it. Aren't these accounts in Madra and Singh's Siques, Tigers and Thieves?

I have not read that book of amndeep madra. I cann't say this. My son has bought those books from family members of these persons on ebay.

[dalsingh101]

You have to post them then Singh2. To hold back would be a sin. Some background (if available) would be nice. Plus if genuine. You need to consider making them more available to the community and possibly digitising important parts.

[singh2]

You have to post them then Singh2. To hold back would be a sin. Some background (if available) would be nice. Plus if genuine. You need to consider making them more available to the community and possibly digitising important parts.

]

Where did i say that i am holding those back. You are making your own stories. It takes time to find the books as i have several of those.

How did the question of genuine come in the pciture? It was collected from the family of these persons. There is no propaganda involved here.

[singh2]

[

name='singh2' date='Aug 28 2009, 04:24 PM' post='104027']

]

Where did i say that i am holding those back. You are making your own stories. It takes time to find the books as i have several of those.

How did the question of genuine come in the pciture? It was collected from the family of these persons. There is no propaganda involved here.

[dalsingh101]

You're misunderstanding me.

I'm saying if they are genuine (something that we must always confirm with ANY reputed historical object), then the knowledge contained should be made available to the panth as they are our collective heritage. I wasn't suggesting that you were purposefully holding back.

That being said. If your son did have the foresight and wisdom to rescue these works from obscurity, then he to needs to be congratulated. I just remembered the cut off point for Madra and Singh's book was 1812 or thereabouts. So this wouldn't be in their publication.

Edited August 28, 2009 by dalsingh101

[singh2]

You're misunderstanding me.

I'm saying if they are genuine (something that we must always confirm with ANY reputed historical object), then the knowledge contained should be made available to the panth as they are our collective heritage. I wasn't suggesting that you were purposefully holding back.

That being said. If your son did have the foresight and wisdom to rescue these works from obscurity, then he to needs to be congratulated. I just remembered the cut off point for Madra and Singh's book was 1812 or thereabouts. So this wouldn't be in their publication.

He has collected many many items. He has in his possession news from Illustrated news of london 1846 citing the visit of maloclm to Punjab in 1805 where in two Granths namely SGGS and Dasam granth being parkash at sikh gatherings. But people still carry out propaganda against Dasam granth. saying that this Granth ws imported by British in 1860. And Jasbir Mann's website globalsikhstudeis is in the forefront in doing this propaganda. Sikhs destroy their heritage and dig their own graves.

i heard jasbir Mann buys people to write against dasam granth sahib just to maintain his ego as he ahs been proven wrong by turn of events. Shameless so called sikh organizations support him.

Where is the list of madra/ can i see that.

Edited August 28, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

I just remembered the cut off point for Madra and Singh's book was 1812 or thereabouts

I do not know what is written in that. There is a book " Through the sikh war" written from first hand experience of an english boy who first took up job with Sikhs immediately after Ranjit singh's death and then acts as a british spy for during anglo sikh wars. Does amandeep says anything about this book?

all i am trying to say is that there is alot yet to be explored. Ranjit singh had sikh generals in his court. Their families hold lot of sikh heritage items. I personally know one family of the area who have a khanda gifted by ranjit singh that occupies onje big suit case.All this needs to be documented as we are losing old sikhs. we can do that as technology is there. But the condition is that only selfless people who love their religion need to do that.

Edited August 28, 2009 by singh2

[Mithar]

European accounts of Nihangs during the times of Khalsa Raaj of Lahore Durbar are not positive. They Euros hated the Nihangs since they were Anti British, but none the less their bravery was respected. After the British take over of the Punjab you will hardly find a mention of Nihangs by Europeans as if they almost didn't even exist. Most of the mentions that Nihangs get are from the times of Akali Phula Singh. After Akali Phula Singh died, their power did decrease which is why they barely get any mentions by Europeans. After Akali Phula Singh jee's Shaheedi, it was mostly non Nihang Sikhs that get mentioned for their anti British activities such as Baba Bir Singh Naurangabadi, Baba Maharaj Singh Jee, and after the British take over of Punjab Baba Ram Singh Namdhari jee was the next great name to get mentioned.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Mithar

[singh2]

European accounts of Nihangs during the times of Khalsa Raaj of Lahore Durbar are not positive. They Euros hated the Nihangs since they were Anti British, but none the less their bravery was respected. After the British take over of the Punjab you will hardly find a mention of Nihangs by Europeans as if they almost didn't even exist. Most of the mentions that Nihangs get are from the times of Akali Phula Singh. After Akali Phula Singh died, their power did decrease which is why they barely get any mentions by Europeans. After Akali Phula Singh jee's Shaheedi, it was mostly non Nihang Sikhs that get mentioned for their anti British activities such as Baba Bir Singh Naurangabadi, Baba Maharaj Singh Jee, and after the British take over of Punjab Baba Ram Singh Namdhari jee was the next great name to get mentioned.

During treaty of Amritsar british forces came to amritsar. Nihungs had a battle with them in the vicinity of Darbar sahib. That is the time British did not like Nihungs.

They were driven away from punjab after take over. many of them left due to persecution to far away places like Patna sahib and Hazoor sahib. Baba Beer singh was from the family of my wife's grandmother.In all practicality he was a Nihung himself. So was Bhai maharaj singh who was in his dera at Naurangabad.They were like Godly figures in Punjab. British ahve written about the respect they enjoyed among sihs. Leaving aside politics of today Nihungs were a very respected lot in Punjab.

[dalsingh101]

I do not know what is written in that. There is a book " Through the sikh war" written from first hand experience of an english boy who first took up job with Sikhs immediately after Ranjit singh's death and then acts as a british spy for during anglo sikh wars. Does amandeep says anything about this book?

As I said. They stopped the book at 1812 or whatever year thereabout that Malcolm published his book. The period you are talking about (took up job with Sikhs immediately after Ranjit singh's death), is a good few decades after this, so nothing would be mentioned.

Here the contents page of the book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/toc/140...F8&n=266239

all i am trying to say is that there is alot yet to be explored. Ranjit singh had sikh generals in his court. Their families hold lot of sikh heritage items. I personally know one family of the area who have a khanda gifted by ranjit singh that occupies onje big suit case.All this needs to be documented as we are losing old sikhs. we can do that as technology is there. But the condition is that only selfless people who love their religion need to do that.

But the condition is that only selfless people who love their religion need to do that.

These people are rarer than diamonds now. I would say that we need to save whatever we have have and hunt the rest. We have lost too much. Plus there are too many Sikhs who are very self centred. I know someone, whose name I wont mention, that has an enormous collection of shasters, many Sikh related. He is quite well known and Amritdhari. But he holds on to them and doesn't allow them to be catalogued and photographed so the rest of the quom can have darshan.

This is not right in my opinion. We need to share our heritage and not horde it. No one is denying ownership, but with modern tech we can share through scans and photos.

I think there is potentially a lot of undiscovered stuff from M. Ranjit SIngh's time too in Europe. Esp. UK. Sikh artefacts fetch big money here. But recently Singhs went nuts (understandably, I did too), over the potential sale of a piece of armour that may have belonged to dasmesh pita. The piece was eventually handed over to the SGPC anonymously. Three things arise from this:

1)Who had this rare armour with Jaap Sahib inscribed onto it? What is the history of the possesion?

2)What else might that person have in terms of priceless material Sikh heritage?

3)What else is hidden in private collections that was looted from Panjab?

Anyway. We are digressing from the Singh Sabha topic now. If we want to carry this one on we should do in another thread. PLEASE find those extracts you mentioned and post them asap. They are intriguing. Another famous mentioning of Akali/Nihungs was by Rudyard Kipling in his book, Kim.

Edited August 28, 2009 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Singh2, have you not found the book you mentioned earlier in the thread?

[singh2]

Singh2, have you not found the book you mentioned earlier in the thread?

dalsingh

I located the book. I also posted some excerpts from this book in one of the sections of this site.I do not recollect in which section.