Medicinal Wine?

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

I'm just curious as to what the Gursikhs here think about taking medicinal wines for health purposes. Would this be considered a kurehit? I'm thinking here of Chinese medicinal wines that can be taken for martial arts practice, bone and tendon injuries, and invigorating the blood.

Edit: I mean in medicinal quantities also, i.e. a tablespoon or two.

Also, for those who consider all eat meat to be a bujjar kurehit, would you consider it a kurehit to take animal products for medicinal or martial use (a lot of Chinese medicines for such purposes contain things like deer antler, tiger* or dog bone, wingless cockroaches or gecko lizards)?

Thanks for your input,

K.

*Personally I would not take this due to the status of tigers as an endagered species.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Kaljug

[Matheen]

IMHO, I would rather use an alternative (maybe Ayurveda/ desi meds which I know work very well for injuries etc).

[Silence]

Can't answer for the wine thing but certainly on the meat I would say its all kurehit. Its not about our reasons, the underlying principle (imho) is the simple objection to the animal being killed, doesn't matter whether its for taste, health, whatever. Its like saying eating eggs would not be kurehit just because they can help make you stronger.

Wine really, its not worth taking the risk is it, i mean if its not nasha then maybe its not kurehit, but its too fine a line i think.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Silence

[Pheena]

Is there no alternative product which can give you the same result from wine? If not, then are these nutrients for you body absolutely necessary, that you won't be able to do with out them? If you can't do without them, then how important/significant is your activity that is requiring this wine in your life?

[Kaljug]

Is there no alternative product which can give you the same result from wine? If not, then are these nutrients for you body absolutely necessary, that you won't be able to do with out them? If you can't do without them, then how important/significant is your activity that is requiring this wine in your life?

Fateh!

Well, the herbs have to be steeped in the alcohol for up to a year to bring out their essence, so there really isn't another way to do it.

The medicine is for general health, and for increasing the power and stamina of the body for martial purposes, and I tend to see the martial side of Sikhi as being as important as the bhakti part. I don't need to take it, but likewise I don't have to take paracetemol or codeine if I break a bone, but it certainly makes life more tolerable.

Anyway, my questions were really to see what other Gursikhs think about the idea of using wine (or, more generally, anything that can be used for nasha but has other uses) or animal products.

K.

[Kaljug]

Can't answer for the wine thing but certainly on the meat I would say its all kurehit. Its not about our reasons, the underlying principle (imho) is the simple objection to the animal being killed, doesn't matter whether its for taste, health, whatever. Its like saying eating eggs would not be kurehit just because they can help make you stronger.

Wine really, its not worth taking the risk is it, i mean if its not nasha then maybe its not kurehit, but its too fine a line i think.

Fateh!

Thanks for the input, veera.

Out of interest, do you believe that killing the animal is the issue of consumption of it? If the killing, then what of the tabla skins, or shoes, or the strings of the rababs played in the times of the Gurus? Were they not made of animal parts?

K.

[SURYADEV]

There is always some amount of alcohol in the human body, whether one ingests it or not! Its simply digested food fermenting in the system. So, to say that even a tiny amount is wrong .....is wrong! Also most normal medicines, cosmetic, parfums, etc we take contain alcohol to bind the oils and water together.

Regarding animal products in medicine: Desi dawai doesn't mean that it is purely herbal; many also contain animal products, alcohol and also ,what western doctors would consider poisonous to the human body eg: sulphur etc.

It is well nigh impossible to avoid these things in the western lifestyle.

Hey most drugs taken illicitly were and are medicines. Its just the USE/AB-USE of the substance that you need to be careful of. In my opinion, foodstuff is a greater nasha than alcohol - we take too much of it, not enough of it or the wrong type of it!

I feel the anti/pro meat/sharab argument starting now....

[Silence]

Fateh!

Thanks for the input, veera.

Out of interest, do you believe that killing the animal is the issue of consumption of it? If the killing, then what of the tabla skins, or shoes, or the strings of the rababs played in the times of the Gurus? Were they not made of animal parts?

K.

Gurfateh,

Lol, well I'm not gonna be all delusional and go for the "died naturally" argument. As per my understanding, the skins and parts obtained for such use were from animals that were originally killed to be eaten, and the skins, etc. were all 'left overs', so in such a case I don't think it was unjustified to use these parts rather than let them go to waste. I know thats a grey area, but seeing as the animals had alreadby been killed anyway I think it was acceptable.

If it was a case of specifically going out of our way to kill an animal for our own purposes, then there is a problem.

Edited September 17, 2009 by Silence

[shaheediyan]

IMO its fine using anyform of drug as medicine as long as that is all it is being used for - everyone does it, always has done for thousands of years.

Re the animal parts - I think that is a superstitious trade - many traditional chinese medicine systems don't use any animal parts at all - I think you need to study this area - most native SE Asian medicine systems rely on roots, leaves, herbs and fungi for medicine. The animal parts are rooted in shaiman superstition which still exists today - in China it was simply a concept the wealthy grasped on to - most of the animal parts theories are ridiculous.

study Ayurved as Matheen mentioned - this is the root of traditional chinese medicine as gifted by the first travellnig Buddist Monks from India (as per Chinese historical Bussist records).

Alongside thi, SE Asian traditional medicine also heavily uses yoga, QiGong, massage etc to develop internal and external strength/energy/well being - maybe you should study this are intensively also - this element of medicine was also introduced by teh Indians to China - many ancient Gung Fu exercises Asaans are the same as Indian ones for obvious reasons.

Not just aninmals, but rare trees are cut for saaj - always have been. In teh old days Rhino was killed specifcally for its hide in making Dhals - Sikhs used these. Tiger/Lion skin was used by Sadhus etc etc.

The arguement is not about killing animals, they have always been utilised by man, even by Sikhs. Its simply a matter of taking a responsible attitude i.e. where we buy a our saaj from, we have made a deal with the supplier, that for every tree felled, 3 are planted in its place.

[Matheen]

Re the animal parts - I think that is a superstitious trade - many traditional chinese medicine systems don't use any animal parts at all....

You'd be surprised - some of their meds have anything from dried lizard, chameleon, ground rhino horn, genitalia of various animals and more.

study Ayurved as Matheen mentioned - this is the root of traditional chinese medicine....

They are quite different in how they work and how they seek to work.

[shaheediyan]

Matheen, I am not talking about 'high stret' chinese medicine, I am talking about the real deal - the vidya kept by traditional fighting Gung Fu families in China.

Its a well known fact that Indian Monks 'educated' the Chinese re Indian martial and medicine forms - some monastries are still said to have ancient sanskrit texts from where their vidya originates.

[Kaljug]

Gurfateh,

Lol, well I'm not gonna be all delusional and go for the "died naturally" argument. As per my understanding, the skins and parts obtained for such use were from animals that were originally killed to be eaten, and the skins, etc. were all 'left overs', so in such a case I don't think it was unjustified to use these parts rather than let them go to waste. I know thats a grey area, but seeing as the animals had alreadby been killed anyway I think it was acceptable.

If it was a case of specifically going out of our way to kill an animal for our own purposes, then there is a problem.

Fateh, jio!

LOL, that's cool. Would you then be OK with, for example, consuming deer horn for its medicinal value seeing that they are usually removed without harming the animal? Or eat an animal that was killed because it was a pest and/or a harm to humans?

Do you believe that it is the killing of the animal that is the kurehit?

Please don't take this is some sort of challenge to your bleiefs, I'm simply interested as obtaining as many different points of view as possible.

Regards,

K.

[Kaljug]

IMO its fine using anyform of drug as medicine as long as that is all it is being used for - everyone does it, always has done for thousands of years.

Re the animal parts - I think that is a superstitious trade - many traditional chinese medicine systems don't use any animal parts at all - I think you need to study this area - most native SE Asian medicine systems rely on roots, leaves, herbs and fungi for medicine. The animal parts are rooted in shaiman superstition which still exists today - in China it was simply a concept the wealthy grasped on to - most of the animal parts theories are ridiculous.

study Ayurved as Matheen mentioned - this is the root of traditional chinese medicine as gifted by the first travellnig Buddist Monks from India (as per Chinese historical Bussist records).

Alongside thi, SE Asian traditional medicine also heavily uses yoga, QiGong, massage etc to develop internal and external strength/energy/well being - maybe you should study this are intensively also - this element of medicine was also introduced by teh Indians to China - many ancient Gung Fu exercises Asaans are the same as Indian ones for obvious reasons.

Not just aninmals, but rare trees are cut for saaj - always have been. In teh old days Rhino was killed specifcally for its hide in making Dhals - Sikhs used these. Tiger/Lion skin was used by Sadhus etc etc.

The arguement is not about killing animals, they have always been utilised by man, even by Sikhs. Its simply a matter of taking a responsible attitude i.e. where we buy a our saaj from, we have made a deal with the supplier, that for every tree felled, 3 are planted in its place.

Fateh, veera!

Actually, Matheen veer ji is correct, animal parts have been used in Chinese medicine for thousands of years, and it is only with the advent of the high street sale of Chinese medicines, and the interest of Western hippies in search of spirituality in the Eastern systems, that the use of animal parts has become to be seen as an unnecessary and irrational superstition.

For example, some of the oldest recipes for "spring wine" (a rejuvenating wine taken in medicinal quantities to counter the effects of the cold winters) come from the Taoist canon and the tradional recipe included male and female geckos, human placentas, deer horn and tiger bone.

The formula for Cheung Gu Wan, commonly used by marial artists to heal broken bones comes from the Han Dynasty (25-220CE) and contains dog bone as one of its constituents.

Now some of these ideas may of course be rooted in superstition and magical thinking (e.g., to be as strong as a horse, you need to eat horse), but the same can be said of some Ayurvedic medicines that use gemstones and metals prescribed according to the rules of jyotish.

One example that seems superstitious, but actually has real biological reasons, is the use of deer horn that is collected in rutting season to enhance libido and martial abailities. The horns need to be fresh and collected during mating season because that is when they contain the most hormones.

I have a Punjabi friend who was refused to be taught by a well-known and traditional sifu of Baji Quan because he refused to eat the daily diet of beef tendon that is used to prevent knee damage from occurring when practising Baji (a form of kung fu that is very hard on the lower body). Traditional teachers of Hung Gar or Tiger Claw in China still recommend daily consumption of soup made from animal bone and cartilage to build the strength of the bones.

Also, while Kung Fu and Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) may have originated from Bodhidharma and the indian martial and herbal traditions, the Chinese continued to build on this to make the knowledge their own (e.g., replacing many Indian herbs with Chinese variants).

Incidentally, do you know where the Saadhus who meditated on tiger skins obtain them? Did they kill the animals themselves, or were they procured from hunters?

Thankd for your input, veer ji.

Regards,

K.

Edited September 17, 2009 by Kaljug

[Xylitol]

if you want a powerful general tonic, try ginsing, or the indian equivalent, ashwaganda. Watch out though, they might be too invigorating!!

[SURYADEV]

if you want a powerful general tonic, try ginsing, or the indian equivalent, ashwaganda. Watch out though, they might be too invigorating!!

What is ashwaganda used for?? I've seen this stuff in quite a few desi shops in the UK, are they the 'real deal' ?

[Kaljug]

What is ashwaganda used for?? I've seen this stuff in quite a few desi shops in the UK, are they the 'real deal' ?

Fateh!

Ashwaghanda is an adaptogen like ginseng meaning that it regulates physiological functions. In my experience though, ashwaghanda is soothing while ginseng stimulates the CNS.

K.

[jsingh96]

if you can stand the taste go for it !

[Xylitol]

definitely seems wrong to me. While some medicines do contain trace amounts of alcohol, I was under the impression that this alcohol has a different chemical structure than sharaab. Medicinal wine is essentially sharaab. Recently even beer has been found to have some medicinal benefits, so why not medicinal beer? The media was having a field day with all this until another study came out saying that the health benefits of alcohol consumption for health were dwarfed by the health negatives. I recall that the true study that corrected peoples' perception was mentioned perhaps once or twice and quickly shelved.

rather than take such a huge risk with your jeevan, why not do veechar with a mahapurkh first?

[Silence]

Fateh, jio!

LOL, that's cool. Would you then be OK with, for example, consuming deer horn for its medicinal value seeing that they are usually removed without harming the animal? Or eat an animal that was killed because it was a pest and/or a harm to humans?

Do you believe that it is the killing of the animal that is the kurehit?

Please don't take this is some sort of challenge to your bleiefs, I'm simply interested as obtaining as many different points of view as possible.

Regards,

K.

Gurfateh

Well firstly I should make clear, I believe the kurehit to be specifically the consumption of maas. However, I feel to answer the less clear cut questions like the one in your first post, I think its important to look at the principles behind the kurehit itself to come to an answer. That is the reason why in this case I referred to something being against rehit if it involves an animal being killed. So to answer the questions in this post, I would say no to being ok to any of those things, as that is still maas. At this point, I suppose we would look at the other principles behind this kurehit, like the negative effect of such food on meditation and spirituality.

Gurfateh

btw, no problem answering from my viewpoint, I don't see it as any negative challenge

[singh00]

i personally believe that the mass consumption and wine consumption thing is wrong but that's just my personal view. also, what did the singhs do during the days of guru gobind singh ji when they faught and practiced for jungs for their injuries?

[ipledgeblue]

brandy lol

[chatanga1]

Gurfateh,

Lol, well I'm not gonna be all delusional and go for the "died naturally" argument. As per my understanding, the skins and parts obtained for such use were from animals that were originally killed to be eaten, and the skins, etc. were all 'left overs', so in such a case I don't think it was unjustified to use these parts rather than let them go to waste. I know thats a grey area, but seeing as the animals had alreadby been killed anyway I think it was acceptable.

If it was a case of specifically going out of our way to kill an animal for our own purposes, then there is a problem.

so if i got myself a some meat and said to myslef " it was leftover anyway..." would that be ok? Afterall the animal is already dead and also i wouoldnt want it to go to waste. I wouldnt be able to live with myself.