Sacrifice At Hazur Sahib – Myth & Truth

[Only five]

The Internet has provided a forum for free speech which is being abused by all and sundry to project their views with the finality of an intellectual whose research cannot be wrong. All writers, young and old, write in the superlative degree, presenting their views as “the only correct view”, “the best book”, “the worst case” and the like. Human fallibility has become non-existent. After the Tercentenary celebrations at Hazur Sahib, on the internet and in print magazines, it has become fashionable for Sikh intelligentsia to indulge in a superlative discussion about, "Goat Sacrifice at Hazur Sahib."

I have been following this debate for a long time and I have observed that most of the debate is frivolous and those who do spend time on this subject do so without understanding the details of the phenomenon.

Beyond all reasonable doubt let me authoritatively say and explain how this myth is a half-truth and more injurious than the lie.

As a student of Gurmat, I am fully aware of the facts and practices of the Sikhs particularly of this region, who are called "Deccani Sikhs". Since the last four generations, I have lived in this region and therefore I am also one of them.

What is the act of sacrifice? It is a religious ritual of killing (an animal or person) in order to propitiate a deity. This is strictly forbidden in Sikhism. The lives of the Ten Gurus and the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib have several crystal clear explanations.

The shabads of Guru Granth Sahib are misquoted, misused and misinterpreted to propagate vegetarianism among the Sikhs by some intellectuals and by vested interests, particular those running deras.

It is not fair to presume that Jhatka of goat is a sacrificial act at Hazur Sahib and other Unit Gurdwaras of the Deccani Sikhs. Since thousands of years, it is a custom of warriors of India to put the Tilak of blood to their weaponry on the occasion of Dashara and Holi. In these Gurdwaras, the tilak of blood is put to the weapons, not to Guru Granth Sahib or any other idol or photograph.

Even innocent Sikh preachers toe the line, as either they are ignorant or they too want to appease the vested interests or they think vegetarianism will make them popular.

Sikhs living in and around Hazur Sahib of the erstwhile Hyderabad State are the decedents who took Amrit in presence of Guru Gobind Singh Ji in the year 1708. Around 1830, the Sikh Army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh came to help the Nizam, who was the ruler of Hyderabad. This army was retained here as a Sikh Peace keeping Force, which had 14 Risalas (units) at all district headquarters with its Unit Gurdwaras. They held the then prevailing practices and rituals of the Sikhs of that period as a disciplined Armed Force.

It is not fair to presume that Jhatka of goat is a sacrificial act at Hazur Sahib and other Unit Gurdwaras of the Deccani Sikhs. Since thousands of years, it is a custom of warriors of India to put the Tilak of blood to their weaponry on the occasion of Dashara and Holi. In these Gurdwaras, the tilak of blood is put to the weapons, not to Guru Granth Sahib or any other idol or photograph. Though it is not in consonance with Sikh philosophy, like many other practices that have crept into the Sikh way of life, this too requires sane intervention so that it can be stopped. Mere condemnation ad nauseam will not help stopping it.

It is important that we see things objectively and rationally. From the point of view of Sikh image and Sikh practice, this has to be stopped, but this should be bracketed with many other practices and rituals which require serious steps. But there are so many rituals and festivals of other religions which are Celebration of the New Year of the Christian Era, Sammat new month –Sangrand and Full moon day –Pooranmashi. Are these all not anti-Sikh practices?

Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilo...ead.php?t=24666 (Sacrifice at Hazur Sahib – Myth & Truth)

Guru Nanak Sahib in shabad number25 on pages 1289-90 has explained how the fools quarrel over vegetarianism and meat-eating. In 35 thirty five verses starting with "Pehla masaho nimiya maasai ander vas". "pihlW mwshu inMimAw mwsY AMdir vwsu", saying that, "First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh". Gurbani repeatedly reiterates that God is equally abiding in His Creation including food grains, water, vegetation, animal and human bodies. Gurbani strictly condemns sacrifices of animals for pleasing deities and offerings of eatables in fire for performing Havan, Yagyan, Lohri and other such festivities.

On page number 1275 of Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Nanak Sahib has further explained the law of nature that, “Ek ji, kai jiyaan khahi ”, “eyk jIA , kY jIAw KwhI” means “One life eats several lives”.

On page number 955, Guru Angad Sahib Ji further clarifies saying that, “Jiya ka ahar ji, khana yeho karey ”, “jIAw kw Ahwr jIA Kwxw eyhu kryie]”, meaning “God has made the creatures’ food for other creatures.”

There is enough historical evidence that in the in the langar of Guru Nanak Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh, meat was cooked and served. As the sentiments of non-meat eaters were hurt, it was subsequently stopped. Thus, Guru Ka Langar has gone purely vegetarian and should be accepted and venerated by one and all.

Since thousands of years, Jhatka is an Indian tradition of killing any animal with one stroke. In Assam, Rajasthan and some other north Indian regions, it is still prevailing. Halal meat is actually Zubah meat (half cut throat) which is halal (permitted) for the Muslims. This tradition is borrowed by them from Jewish religion's "Kosher meat". This sort of meat is specifically declared harram (forbidden-sinful) for the Sikhs in Sikh Rehat Maryada. The diktat to eat Jhatka meat was a revolt against the established custom of the time and also a step of rebellion against Muslim tyranny.

Those who advocate vegetarianism among Sikhs is deliberately overlooking the provisions of Sikh Rehat Maryada, which clearly prohibits consuming Kuththa (halal meat) and does not in any manner prevent Sikhs from being non-vegetarians. It is the discretion and liberty of Amritdharis to consume meat, if they choose to do so. Also, any Sikh, who chooses to be vegetarian, is welcome to remain so, but it is foolhardy, naïve and wrong to attempt to amend the Sikh religious ethos according to this choice.

Nanak Singh “Nishter” is a Hyderabad-based orator, writer and Urdu poet. He is a regular columnist of World Sikh News. He is an activist-academician making immense contribution to the social and cultural welfare of Sikh society. He is director of International Sikh Centre for Interfaith Relations. He may be contacted at nanaknishter@gmail.com

This above article in my opinion is running away from the truth.

Why would jhatka be permitted when these guys that want to eat meat use bani that says the sugar cane also suffers when being crushed to justify meat eating. Vegetables are also be chopped into bits and they must be crying, and suffering all the time. So why can we put vegetables throw this pain, but not an animal. For an animal we have to strike it with one blow. This does not make sense because if animals and vegetables are the same on the food line then we should be able to cut an animal however we choose, just as we do with vegetables. And this whole Muslims cut the throat slowly and let it bleed to death is a big so what. Didn't the vegetable suffer when we cut it bit by bit. Didn't the juices of the vegetable come out slowly, cutting it bit by bit.

Why would Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji allow Sikh to cruelly cut one food(vegetables) and the other he would say the Muslims are making the animal suffer, so now on Sikhs have to eat meat when the animal is struck with one blow and killed. Why would Guru Sahib have a double standard when vegetarian food and meat is on the same line according to the meat eaters.

Second arguement these guys like to present is that Muslims were making a sacrifice of the meat to God and reading prayers to make it pure to eat. In this sense to start jhatka does not make sense still. because the food still can be made a sacrifice to God doesn't matter, which way you cut the animal. Can't the mantra be said two or three minutes before they strike the animal with one blow to purifify the food. The only thing Jhatka gets rid of is cruelty of the animal by one blow. But according to the meat eaters in Gurbani the sugar cane is crushed and feels pain. So why be the hypocrite and cruelly let a sugar cane suffer, but not let an animal suffer. Why the double standard.

Then last one they bring up is, jhatka was started to abolish the Muslim way of killing animals. What does it abolish that an animal is pure. This is already written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. That animal sacrifice is wrong, again already written in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. As you can see above it doesn't solve this problem and if you say it does then you get labeled as a hypocrite for letting a vegetable suffer on the frying pan.

1. The arguement that vegetables/grain/fruit is the same as meat does not hold.

2. The jhatka way does not solve anything.

3. It proves that meat eaters have a double standard for meat and vegetables, but with the same tongue say both are the same.

I say meat is only permitted if every other food on this plant disappears. Meat is only used as a survival need and nothing else.

[chatanga1]

I say meat is only permitted if every other food on this plant disappears. Meat is only used as a survival need and nothing else.

theres the problem. get rid of "I" and it will be easier to understand.

[Only five]

theres the problem. get rid of "I" and it will be easier to understand.

Chatangal, can you show me where "I" is getting in the way in showing the faults that exist in the Jhatka tradition. Can you show me the faults that you see in my writing on Jhatka tradition.

Also if you listen to Taksals view on meat. They say the samething. Meat is only to be used a survival need and nothing more.

[Kaljug]

Chatangal, can you show me where "I" is getting in the way in showing the faults that exist in the Jhatka tradition. Can you show me the faults that you see in my writing on Jhatka tradition.

Also if you listen to Taksals view on meat. They say the samething. Meat is only to be used a survival need and nothing more.

Fateh!

The "I" is getting in the way by your attempts to use fanatical Vaishnav vegetarian neo-Sikhi to question something that has been parvaan from the beginning of Sikhi. DDT and AKJ maryada hardly matter given that they are pretty much a recent construction.

Your argument is a great reason not to "wrangle over flesh", by the way. Or simply not to eat at all.

Regards,

K.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Kaljug

[Only five]

Fateh!

The "I" is getting in the way by your attempts to use fanatical Vaishnav vegetarian neo-Sikhi to question something that has been parvaan from the beginning of Sikhi. Taksal and DDT maryada hardly matter given that they are pretty much a recent construction.

Your argument is a great reason not to "wrangle over flesh", by the way. Or simply not to eat at all.

Regards,

K.

You can make all the accusation you choose. I can call you Hitler and it wouldn't make a difference because there is no support backing it. So be kind a show me where the "I" is getting in the way.

Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa himself didn't eat meat or told anyone it is alright to eat it.

[Kaljug]

You can make all the accusation you choose. I can call you Hitler and it wouldn't make a difference because there is no support backing it. So be kind a show me where the "I" is getting in the way.

Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa himself didn't eat meat or told anyone it is alright to eat it.

Are you looking for support for jhatka? Read Amarnama to begin with, which has eye witness accounts of the Singhs under Guru Gobind Singh's direct command preparing and eatking jhatka.

If you don't agree with it, that's your personal choice. But don't jump around for forum to forum as if you are on a mission from God to save your poor evil jhatka eating Sikh brothers from some kind of mortal sin. Singhs have been consuming flesh for as long as Sikhi has been around and will continue to do so.

Jhatka has been practised in Hazur Sahib since the beginning and it will continue to do so.

They have been around a lot longer than the newer generation of vegetarian Sikh crusaders, and the practice will be around when both you and I are gone.

Regards,

K.

[Only five]

Are you looking for support for jhatka? Read Amarnama to begin with, which has eye witness accounts of the Singhs under Guru Gobind Singh's direct command preparing and eatking jhatka.

If you don't agree with it, that's your personal choice. But don't jump around for forum to forum as if you are on a mission from God to save your poor evil jhatka eating Sikh brothers from some kind of mortal sin. Singhs have been consuming flesh for as long as Sikhi has been around and will continue to do so.

Jhatka has been practised in Hazur Sahib since the beginning and it will continue to do so.

They have been around a lot longer than the newer generation of vegetarian Sikh crusaders, and the practice will be around when both you and I are gone.

Regards,

K.

Now that's more like it. That's what I was looking for. Now where do I get this Amarnama book.

I was putting my arguement forward so both sites can present their cases. And so far no one on any site has presented facts, just theory's. Well you tell me about this Amarnama, but first we got to establish it's authencity and that whole bit. Crediability is a huge part of this whole digging around and find the correct answers.

Also just because some thing (like Jhatka Tradition) has been around for awhile does not make it correct. Idol worship has been around for awhile, should we pick up stones, put them on our back and then go and start worshipping them at home.

[Kaljug]

Now that's more like it. That's what I was looking for. Now where do I get this Amarnama book.

I was putting my arguement forward so both sites can present their cases. And so far no one on any site has presented facts, just theory's. Well you tell me about this Amarnama, but first we got to establish it's authencity and that whole bit. Crediability is a huge part of this whole digging around and find the correct answers.

Also just because some thing (like Jhatka Tradition) has been around for awhile does not make it correct. Idol worship has been around for awhile, should we pick up stones, put them on our back and then go and start worshipping them at home.

Fateh!

You can buy it in a bookshop, vide google. See here for some information:

http://sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Amarnama

You are not here to present any theory, you are here to spread your vegetarian mumbo jumbo as being an essential part of Sikhi. You have already made that much clear from the last paragraph of your "essay".

Idol worship is forbidden in Sikhi, jhatka is not. It's the most compassionate way of killing an animal, whether you are going to eat it or whether you are going to use its guts to string your Rabab. See here to begin with so we are not rehashing the same crap that DDT and AKJ fanatics have been repeating ad nauseam since they began:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

See here for the Akal Takht Hukumnama which states the only meat that is forbidden to a Sikh is Halal:

http://www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

K.

[Only five]

Fateh!

You can buy it in a bookshop, vide google. See here for some information:

http://sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Amarnama

You are not here to present any theory, you are here to spread your vegetarian mumbo jumbo as being an essential part of Sikhi. You have already made that much clear from the last paragraph of your "essay".

Idol worship is forbidden in Sikhi, jhatka is not. It's the most compassionate way of killing an animal, whether you are going to eat it or whether you are going to use its guts to string your Rabab. See here to begin with so we are not rehashing the same crap that DDT and AKJ fanatics have been repeating ad nauseam since they began:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

See here for the Akal Takht Hukumnama which states the only meat that is forbidden to a Sikh is Halal:

http://www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

K.

i have read all those websites and you gotta read between the lines and even change some of the interpretation because how wrong they get it.

So far no one has even taken a crack at the writing i wrote on the jhatka. I was wishing a supportor of or nuetral would have done so. Watch some moron make an insult here. I keep getting accused, but no merit there.

Again I can call you hitler in the same sense. But again no merit so it doesn't hold.

Thanks for the link to the book. Much appreciated.

[Only five]

The book is edited by Pashuara Singh. You might aswell say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is not our Guru with this guy editing the book

Is this book Amarnama edited by anyone else. That isn't an ***hole. Sorry for that but Pashuara is a snake long with his henchmen.

Please tell me someone else did edit it.

[das]

ke hovega apna.......this meat topic starts frequently and both sides (pro and anti) (including me) stickes to their views and try to teach others their way. The end result is long long threads and the options on both sides remain unchanged.

Why cannot we understand human body and the nature around us. Let's see the following:

- Do we have the desired components to eat and digest meat? Human body is designed in such a way that any food that we eat should leave our colon within 24 hours, but meat remains there for at-least 72 hours.

- Bad forces are attracted to blood of animals and liqour. So, therefore, persons consuming meat and liquir are more prone to attacks (or say bad effects) as compared to persons not consuming those. This is my personal experience, if you want you can test it but I won't suggest.

- Persons having meat and liquor does have problems in concentrating.

- Spiritual practice will be less effective if one consumes meat and\or liquor.

For more NON-SPIRITUAL points: http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/articles/id/spiritualresearch/spiritualscience/veg-or-non-veg

[shaheediyan]

Amarnama: A Perspective - Guru Gobind Singh's Life

Author: Kavita R

Year of Publication : 2008

ISBN : 8190402188

[Only five]

Amarnama: A Perspective - Guru Gobind Singh's Life

Author: Kavita R

Year of Publication : 2008

ISBN : 8190402188

Thanks you

[Only five]

Something that I should have clarified at the beginning, but I though I didn't need to after stating meat can be used as last survival need.

Well I wrote it at the other site and will write it here aswell just comp paste. Don't want to waste time on things that have been said already.

Am I speaking against it. Really that's what you guys got from it. i am clarifying it and what it actually is and what it destroys.

Like I said people say the Jhatka tradition is done to abolish Muslim halal ways, but I showed it didn't even touch that because....well that piece is there for everyone to read. I don't want to keep repeating it over and over.

Jhatka tradition is being used in the wrong way to justify everyday desire of the tongue.

Jhatka is permitted as a last option when every plant and leaves have been aten and nothing else is left. For survival needs. Not for the desire of the tongue. Also the knew thing, it's being done so the person gets tough by seeing blood and won't run away from war on sight of it. These foolish ways is what I'm against. Gurbani is what makes you tough and fills that body with shakti to destroy your enemy with one blow.

A Gursikh if you look at his daily meal consist of daal, salt, roti, and water. Eating simple. And leave the body building part out.

Are the Nihangs Singh running out of daal, sabzi, and roti. NO! For the tongue they perform this useless tradition. Think in context. Jhatka is useful for survival needs. And the blood being applied to the sword is just a whole topic on it's own.

So am I pro meat. No!

Am I pro vegetarian NO!

Am I nuetral on meat and vegetarian. Yes

Is Jhatka being used in the way given. NO! it is being abused by some.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Only five

[shaheediyan]

When you are in this 'survival' situation, are you going to know how to catch, kill, skin, gut, cut and cook the animal?

Would you be even able to see it done, let alone do it.

Wake up friend, traditions exist for reasons which are over your head.

You don't have to consume meat to respect deep meaningflu traditions which were once common place and served an important purpose.

If you have issues, I suggest rather than wasting time here, speak to some Akali Babai in India so that at least you can get the other side of the story 1st hand. Then present a balanced view (with your opinion) rather than the pushing your mat here.

[Only five]

When you are in this 'survival' situation, are you going to know how to catch, kill, skin, gut, cut and cook the animal?

Would you be even able to see it done, let alone do it.

No offense shaheediyan, but this is what I call foolish thinking and underestimating the strength of Gurbani. One singh didn't take on thousand and thousand by watching goats being gutted, but by reading Gurbani and gaining the shakti where he can slice through steel like a knife going through a cake. Bhagti and shakti comes from Gurbani.

Wake up friend, traditions exist for reasons which are over your head.

You don't have to consume meat to respect deep meaningflu traditions which were once common place and served an important purpose.

If you have issues, I suggest rather than wasting time here, speak to some Akali Babai in India so that at least you can get the other side of the story 1st hand. Then present a balanced view (with your opinion) rather than the pushing your mat here.

I didn't take it as wasting time talking to the one's that know about this practice on these sites. But hey, people have different views.

i don't live in India man. Here in B.C. surrounded by Singh Sahba Canada and other fools.

I will be going to India in the near future and will go to Hazur Sahib to see this whole Jhatka tradition in action. Wasn't going to go at first to Hazur Sahib, but with this whole discussion now it's got me interested.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Only five

[Matheen]

A very pointless topic.

However, it isn't right to say that the Maryada of DDT is recent - it's probably older than the Buddha Dal one, and is very very similar to Maryadas of most other puratan Sampardas, notably the Bhai Daya Singh Samparda.

For hundreds of years, pooran Bhramgyani Mahapursh have gone to Hazoor Sahib, including Baba Nand Singh Ji, Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, Sant Isher Singh Ji (Rarewale), Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, etc, and NONE have ever spoken against the Maryada of Hazur Sahib, yet they recommend vegetarianism themselves. we should learn from them.

Also, unless one follows the Nitnem of a Nihang, it is not good to follow their other traditions, like jhatka, sukha etc. The only reason they get away with eating mass, which contains all 5 elements, is due to their immense Nitnem and their lifestyle. Even Akaal Nihang Baba Nihal Singh Ji says mass should be avoided if possible and if it must be eaten, it must be jhatka.

Das is right about the spiritual effect, the Pir Suleman recordings make that clear.

Guru Rakha.

[Only five]

A very pointless topic.

However, it isn't right to say that the Maryada of DDT is recent - it's probably older than the Buddha Dal one, and is very very similar to Maryadas of most other puratan Sampardas, notably the Bhai Daya Singh Samparda.

For hundreds of years, pooran Bhramgyani Mahapursh have gone to Hazoor Sahib, including Baba Nand Singh Ji, Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, Sant Isher Singh Ji (Rarewale), Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, etc, and NONE have ever spoken against the Maryada of Hazur Sahib, yet they recommend vegetarianism themselves. we should learn from them.

Also, unless one follows the Nitnem of a Nihang, it is not good to follow their other traditions, like jhatka, sukha etc. The only reason they get away with eating mass, which contains all 5 elements, is due to their immense Nitnem and their lifestyle. Even Akaal Nihang Baba Nihal Singh Ji says mass should be avoided if possible and if it must be eaten, it must be jhatka.

Das is right about the spiritual effect, the Pir Suleman recordings make that clear.

Guru Rakha.

I'm curious now, what are the nitnem of a Nihang?

[Only five]

Fateh!

You can buy it in a bookshop, vide google. See here for some information:

http://sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Amarnama

You are not here to present any theory, you are here to spread your vegetarian mumbo jumbo as being an essential part of Sikhi. You have already made that much clear from the last paragraph of your "essay".

Idol worship is forbidden in Sikhi, jhatka is not. It's the most compassionate way of killing an animal, whether you are going to eat it or whether you are going to use its guts to string your Rabab. See here to begin with so we are not rehashing the same crap that DDT and AKJ fanatics have been repeating ad nauseam since they began:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html

See here for the Akal Takht Hukumnama which states the only meat that is forbidden to a Sikh is Halal:

http://www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

K.

Something I forgot to comment on. It's in bold.

Why does the way you kill an animal have to be commpassiante. When the sugar cane was being crushed by the wooden rollers Guru Nanak Dev ji didn't say you should find a different way that is more compassionte.

So the question is, which I presented in the main piece. Why do you have to kill the animal in a compassionte ways and the sugar cane can suffer in horrible pain. So why the double standard here?

[shaheediyan]

Get a Budda Dal Gutka.

[Only five]

Get a Budda Dal Gutka.

How come the people on here that promote jhatka don't know about why everything is done in such a fashion. yet they promote it.

So again why the sugar cane has to suffer painful death and goat gets the one quick slice where it can't fight back.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Only five

[Only five]

Not trying to be a jack***, but these are honest questions everyone should be asking.

i have said correct me if I'm wrong here,so please do so if you believe so.

[Kaljug]

Something I forgot to comment on. It's in bold.

Why does the way you kill an animal have to be commpassiante. When the sugar cane was being crushed by the wooden rollers Guru Nanak Dev ji didn't say you should find a different way that is more compassionte.

So the question is, which I presented in the main piece. Why do you have to kill the animal in a compassionte ways and the sugar cane can suffer in horrible pain. So why the double standard here?

Is that actually a serious question?

Do you suggest that we torture the animal, or you advocating not eating at all?

K.

[Kaljug]

No offense shaheediyan, but this is what I call foolish thinking and underestimating the strength of Gurbani. One singh didn't take on thousand and thousand by watching goats being gutted, but by reading Gurbani and gaining the shakti where he can slice through steel like a knife going through a cake. Bhagti and shakti comes from Gurbani.

Fateh!

LOL, I should have known it was going to come to this. Yes, there was no need for Singhs to learn to hunt, kill, skin, and cook animals. Neither was there any need to learn shastar vidiya. Or actually get up and fight. The power of gurbani and naam did it for them because they were all spiritual giants with magical powers.

Matheen veer ji is right, this topic is completely and utterly pointless when people don't have the basic understanding that you can't learn to drive a car without actually taking a car out for a spin (you just have to do lots of naam simran).

K.

[Only five]

Is that actually a serious question?

Do you suggest that we torture the animal, or you advocating not eating at all?

K.

I asked you why do you have a double standard for animals and plants. Meat eaters and supports of Jhatka as every day use are the ones saying animals and plants are the same on the food line there is no different. So why do you have different ways of killing an animal. Why not use the same technique. It is your logic that is being challenged here.

So present a case. I humbly request one of you guys to tell me. But not one of you answer this simple question straight, just give the run around.

Is there something to hide here on your part. I put everything on the table with the orignal post. So now it's on you to prove the orginal piece as wrong.

And yet none of you challenged it. I am telling you to challenge it and no one does.