Dasam Granth sahib ji learnin...

[The truth]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

Lallesha

Justa quick question

u say

The Truth will reappear in its splendour, the ignorant fools will perish and the Khalsa Panth of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, Bar do Alam Shah, Badshah Darvesh, will triumph!!!!!

Gur Bar Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllrvari

Does this mean anyone that doesn't fall into your category of sikhi/truth etc are ignorant fools?

and by my understanding of what u say - basically anyone who is not a Nihang/Nirmalla is not part of the Khalsa

??

just aquick question

u say

[Guest Javanmard]

Gurfateh

Dear Sukhbir, Daljeet Singh's article is quite old now and his arguments have since been proved wrong by scholars like Piara Singh Padam. Don't take it personally but I am getting a bit fed up with people feading me the same Daljeet Singh article on Dasam Granth times and times over. I would rather like to have a discussion with you and you own research. I would like to know what your conclusions are and not what other people have found out for you. I have always made it a rule for myself to avoid cutting and pasting as much as possible and in fact I never do. I trust your intellectual ability to continue this conversation which by the way is getting more exciting. The only reason why I teased you is because I wanted you to come out with all your arguments. There was as such nothing really personal and I did take your replies (about my maturity) with a lot of humour. Good so!

To the Truth, I have never claimed that you needed to be Nihang or Nirmala to be thr true Khalsa, but I am just saying that the Nihangs and Nirmala are the protective wings of the Khalsa, something like a body of officers or special forces that's it. In the eyes of maharaj I am just a beggar at his door like all of us. But in terms of authoritative traditions I have to remain firm about the fact that Nihangs and Nirmale (and others) have retained the most authentic traditions and hold therefore more authority in religious matters. That's it. In the Khalsa there is place for all. "We're one but we are not the same we've got to carry each other". An army without special forces or officers or sub-commanders is lost.

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Gurfateh

Dear Sukhbir, Daljeet Singh's article is quite old now and his arguments

have since been proved wrong by scholars like Piara Singh Padam.

Firstly, in this case the age of the article is of no relevance whatsoever when assessing its credence. To say it has been proved 'wrong' is hardly a satisfactory response, you must deal with specifics, how has it been proved "wrong"? The article is logical, well defined and well executed I fear your problem is not with its accuracy but the clear conclusion it makes. Besides IF you read my post introducing the article I did

assume a unfavourable response from you and I also said that I would leave it up to the reader to draw their own conclusions,

perhaps in the absence of any legitimate counter you should do the same.

Don't take

it personally but I am getting a bit fed up with people feading me the same

Daljeet Singh article on Dasam Granth times and times over.

Its no surprise to me that your getting fed up, the article means you have to ask some very searching questions

and for one to whom humility is an issue that must be quite uncomfortable. Your fed up because the article

exposes many of the flaws that are inherent in your argument.

I would rather

like to have a discussion with you and you own research. I would like to

know what your conclusions are and not what other people have found out for

you. I have always made it a rule for myself to avoid cutting and pasting as

much as possible and in fact I never do.

If there is available, evidence or research that is well researched, well founded and well respected than why should it not be

cited? Are you trying to tell me that any academic study is the result of original thought? The author of the article has done

far more research than is within my or your confines and the article is well written just because it fly's in the face of your own position

you would rather it was not used. I have made my own conclusions very clear to you time and again so to avoid duplication here

I refer you to my earlier post's. As for you having a rule about citing authoritative work's you may not 'cut and paste' but you have often

referred to various book's or as above scholars, further whatever 'rules' you impose upon yourself are of little relevance to me.

Its your prerogative to not 'cut and paste' but it is well within the parameters of this or any forum so what's your point?

I trust your intellectual ability

to continue this conversation

Strange aren't you the same Lalleshavri that wrote...

But then stop talking about Dasam Granth

because it's out of reach for you both emotionally and intellectually.

Or perhaps that was someone else, having said that contradiction is hardly something your averse to, would you like further examples?

Anyway since you apparently see yourself as something of a intellectual perhaps you can explain the deeply profound utterances you made below?

My dear friend you don't know in what kind of situation you have put

yourself!!!! Hihihihihihihihi!!!!

Or the equally high minded

Hahaha My friend, do you need to be a Brahmin to learn Sanskrit????!?!?!?!?!

which by the way is getting more exciting. The

only reason why I teased you is because I wanted you to come out with all

your arguments. There was as such nothing really personal and I did take

your replies (about my maturity) with a lot of humour. Good so!

The only reason you attempted to 'tease' me is because you are arrogant 'my friend', im sorry but I am being honest the contents of your post are very telling and reveal a unjustly inflated ego and as far as the comments regarding your maturity are concerned, again apologies but they were not intended to be in good humour.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

[Guest Javanmard]

I told you already that Daljeet Singh's article is not valid anymore because serious research has proven him wrong. The problem is that because Piara Singh Padam's book is not on the net no one has the possibility of cutting and pasting. Read Padam first before we go on about Dasam Granth. For the rest I am not even going to bother going into you mindgames. You are drifting away from the main subject by refering to my teasing. If you can't take it that's your problem. I am not trying to placate you at all. What I want is a proper debate. Get the philological knowledge first and then we can start debating on Dasam Granth. All you do is quoting from my posts or pasting someone else's articles.

If arrogance means that I think for myself, that I do my own research, that I learn the languages and philosophies behind the writings of our Beloved Gurus:then yes I am arrogant and I am proud of it. I have got no time to waste with your petty games so farewell.

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I told you already that Daljeet Singh's article is not valid anymore because serious research has proven him wrong.

And I and other readers should take your word for it should we?, sorry but your word fall's far short of evidence, besides there are points within the article that could not be termed 'wrong' by any measure.

The problem is that because Piara Singh Padam's book is not on the net no one has the possibility of cutting and pasting. Read Padam first before we go on about Dasam Granth.

Firstly how convenient that it's not available and yet again were back at go and read this or learn such and such a language, as with your earlier statement's (see below), nothing more than poor diversionary tactics.

But if you want to talk about Dasam Guru Granth Sahib

then learn Sanskrit and Braj and maybe we could start the conversation again

in four years time.

For the rest I am not even going to bother going into you mindgames. You are drigting away from the main subject by refering to my teasing. If you can't take it that's your problem

.

Oh, I took it alright, but it seem's you cannot take the response, their is an old adage that goes something like "if you can't take it don't dish it out in the first place"

I am not trying to pacify you at all. What I want is a proper debate. Get the philological knowldge first and then we can start debating on Dasam Granth. All you do is quoting from my posts or pasting someone else's articles.

Firstly you claim article(s)? again you need to check your fact's its article (singular ie. one)

Further you got the debate, my point's are entirely clear there is no point in repeating them here since you have never countered one, as for quoting from your post's yes that is annoying for you isn't it? Well im afraid if you make comments and later contradict yourself or they have are incorrect then I have every right to point them out. Further they are comment's written by you are they not? If you don't like them to be brought up, perhaps you should not have written them in the first place. I quote from your post's because unlike you all my observations regarding yourself and your shortcomings both personally and in terms of your argument have been based solely on the evidence you provided yourself. Here's another adage for you " give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves"

If arrogance means that I think for myself, that I do my own research, that I learn the languages and philosophies behind the writings of our Beloved Gurus:then yes I am arrogant and I am happy like that. I have got no time to waste with your petty games so farewell.

Like I said before if you cannot take it that's fine, bye, hopefully in the future you will think twice before making these sort's of comment's,

YOu have chosen blindness instead of aqal. That's fine. A lot of people seem

to

be happy like that

.

You want to stick

to SGPC SIkhism

The Truth will reappear in its splendour, the ignorant fools will perish and

the Khalsa Panth of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, Bar do Alam Shah,

Badshah Darvesh, will triumph!!!!!

as the Prophet (PBUH) said in a hadith

the cripple is always jealous of the dancer

Yes, you wrote all of this and by the virtue of this forum there's no denying it you have no right whatsoever to call other people blind with regards to their faith, you have no right to attach meaningless labels like SGPC Sikhism to those who wish to follow the path of Guruji, you have no right

to call people you do not agree with ignorant fool's and you should not be so self glorifying as your final "cripple/ dancer" comment suggests. In saying goodbye to you I sincerely hope that you learn some respect for people other than yourself.

Gur Fateh

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj

[nogroup singh]

This article is valueable to add to this thread. You guys can carry on with your discussion.

http://members.pgonline.com/~mpurewal/dasm-b.html

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

I thought it might be pertinent in light of Truth Singh's post to add that, ,correct me if I'm wrong but, Bhai Gurdas himself very famously paraphrased the hadiths of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) by stating, 'take one step toward God and God will take a thousand toward you'

[Guest Javanmard]

Why would I not quote a hadith as a literary reference? I grew up respecting all the great prophets and if there is something I like about what they say why not use it.

[Guest Javanmard]

It is my firm and strong belief that our Gurus came to reveal the inner meaning behind all religious scriptures, why then would Guru Nanak explain what it means to be a true Muslim. As a Sikh I regard all religions as part of my heritage and my Gurus help me see the inner meaning of them. If you look at Sevapanthi, Nirmala and Udasi literature the great authors of those sampradayas have quoted from the Bible, Upanishads, Kuran, hadith, Vedanta etc.. to illustrate their point and show that Maharaj is the accomplishement of all divine prophecies. I just follow the examples of my elders whom I respect and if I find that a hadith suits a certain occasion I will use with or without someone else's permission.

[Guest Javanmard]

Gurfateh

let's get back to our topic i.e. learning Dasam Guru Granth Sahib. I think that first of all anyone attempting to study DGGS should have a solid philological training in Sanskrit (3-4 years absolutely essential), a good knowldge of Braj and Farsi for the Hikayat and the Zafarnama and Fatehnama. On top of that one needs a very good knowdlege of puranic, Upanishadic,Tantric (Kashmiri Shaiva), Braj, Sanskrit and Persian literature. This means being able to read all of those works in the original and knowing them quite well as well as the philosophies behind them. One also needs to be aware of heuristics and hermeneutics as well as the commentaries written by previous scholars. I am just giving some tools for those who are interested. If anyone needs further readings, just email me.

love

[SUKHBIR]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

No group Singh, thank's indeed a valuable article.

Whilst there saw this essay as well very enlightning.

Gurmukhi: The Unique Invention of Guru Nanak

Dr.Kuldip Singh, FRCS

* 2080 Sector 15-C, Chandigarh. 160015.

@ Parasaraprasna, Sirdar Kapur Singh, p. 167

Guru Nanak was born with the mandate of revealing a new religious thought

and to build up a new nation on the basis of Truth. The Primal Lord wanted

Nanak to project a humanitarian and scientific religion, and build a new

nation shorn of all hypocrisy and mythology. His mission was revealed when

he was taken to the teacher for imparting teaching in the crude local Lande

or Mahajani alphabet with which the Khatris maintained accounts. When the

teacher wanted the seven year old Nanak to learn the letter "S" or "sassa",

Nanak asked as to what did that letter mean. The teacher said it meant the

letter ‘S’ nothing more. Guru Nanak explained that it stood for the Sole

Creator of the universe who is the one Lord of all of us. "Sasai soye

srishat jin saaji, sabhna sahib ek, bhaiyaa" (Guru Granth Sahib, 432). The

bani in Raag Aasa over which Guru Arjun, the compiler of Guru Granth Sahib

has given the heading Patti Likhi, or the written alphabet, contains a line

or couplet for each of the 35 letters of the Gurmukhi alphabet.

Fristly, Guru Nanak appeared for his sojourn on this earth in 1469, the

people of Punjab had been speaking Punjabi for over 1,000 years, but there

was no script of the language. A crude script of 27 letters, called Mahaani

or Takri, without vowel letters or mattras was used by people to note down

accounts, record of family events and sending messages. By regarding the

whole line they could make out or guess the meaning. Muslims had been ruling

Punjab for nearly 500 years and half the population had embraced Islam. The

official or court language was Persian, written in Arabic script. The

maulvis in the mosques taught not only Arabic to Muslim children but also

instructed the Muslims in observation of Muslim customs. The Brahmins,

similarly, explained the rituals to Hindus on specific family or festival

days. Indeed, observation of specific rituals was regarded as religion by

both Muslims and Hindus. Akal Purakh, the one ever-existing Lord, decided to

have a complete break when Nanak started reciting bani, or divine

revelation, in the Punjabi language. Nanak started compiling this revealed

bani in a very concise and complete scientific script for the Punjabi

language, comprising 35 letters, 10 vowel marks and 3 other sound marks. It

is an historical fact that prior to Guru Nanak’s writing Gurbani, no text

had ever been written on walls, stones or paper in the now known Punjabi or

Gurmukhi alphabet. Indeed, we can state without the slightest hesitation,

and without any fear of contradiction, that Guru Nanak is the inventor of

the Gurmukhi alphabet.@ There are hundreds of other scripts all over the

world but there is no single inventor of any one or them.

The Second Step: During his long travels across the country and beyond,

spread over 28 years, Guru Nanak kept on recording his bani, which he used

to recite and sing with his companion, Mardana playing on Rebec in various

musical measures or Ragas. Not only this, Guru Nanak recorded the sayings,

teachings or bani of other saints or Bhagats, whom he either met during his

travels or learnt it from their disciples, the Bhagats having predeceased

Guru Nanak. The bani of only those Bhagats was included who believed in one

Lord, were against caste system and ideologically held similar views to that

of Nanak specially denying the possibility of Akal Purkh - the ever existing

Lord taking birth as devta or incarnation of Lord in human form. Their bani

was recorded by Guru Nanak not only in the Gurmukhi script but also in the

language of Guru Granth. It was the genius of Nanak, that in one stroke, he

separated his followers or seekers of truth, or Sikhs, from Arabic, Persian

and Sanskrit. Guru Nanak went on including, or co-opting, Punjabised version

of words from many other languages and dialects into Punjabi as he went

along on his travels so that people outside Punjab could also understand the

theme of his bani.

The Third Step: The identity of Sikhs centered on their knowing Gurmukhi.

Guru Angad (Nanak, the Second) established the alphabetical order of the

Gurmukhi letters and took active part in teaching the script and

popularising it. He made the Sikhs learn the script and not only memorise

the bani but also write it. Gurmukhi knowing and Gurbani writing Sikhs - the

seekers, sought entry into the Sikh fold by partaking Charnamrit from the

Guru. Charnamrit was the baptismal water prepared by dipping the Guru’s

cleaned and washed big toe of right foot in clean water kept in a vessel.

Booklets or Gutkas as we, the Sikhs, call them containing bani written in

Gurmukhi script were the centre of reverence in the Dharamsals, as gurdwaras

were then called. During the time of 3rd Nanak, Guru Amar Das, these Gutkas

(nucleus of the Granth) were enlarged by addition of bani of Guru Amar Das.#

"It was adoption of the Gurmukhi characters which reminded those who

employed them of their duty towards their Guru and constantly kept alive in

their minds the consciousness that they were something distinct from the

common mass of Hindus." - Gokul Chand Narang, Transformation of Sikhism,

p.48.

It can be concluded the Guru Nanak commenced the foundation of a new

religion by way of writing and preaching his thoughts in the new Gurmukhi

script. With this the Sikhs became independent of Brahmins and shunned all

rituals based on puranic mythology. Thus Sikhism starts with Gurmukhi, is

indeed the foundation of Sikhi. Any individual who feels proud to call

himself a Sikh must know the Gurmukhi script.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

COMPILATION OF "DASAM GRANTH"

(A Scientific Analysis)

Controversy about origin of "Dasam Granth" is about 250 years old and

thinking of scholars is so diverse that some think that the whole of "Dasam

Granth" is the work of the Tenth Master and others consider that even JAAP

SAHIB is not the work of Guru Sahib.

There is a glut of articles and even books are being written on this topic.

With the ever-increasing ego, jealousy, and personal promotion among Sikh

scholars, it is doubtful if any conclusion can be arrived at by holding

Seminars on the Subject. Even the successive Jathedars of Akal Takhat have

not been able to decide as to how they should proceed in the matter. It is

pertinent to mention here that under the presidentship of Bhai Ardaman Singh

Bagrian two long discussions on the problem were held at Delhi in which 41

scholars and prominent Sikhs had deliberated at the initiative of S. Mann

Singh "Mansrovar" on 6-7 October 1973 and on 4th March 1974. They could

arrive at only the following two conclusions:

The Parkash of "Dasam Granth" be not performed in any Gurdwara along with

the Parkash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

We should separate the Bani written by Guru Gobind Singh ji and that

composed by poets from the "Dasam Granth" ("Dasam Granth Nirney" – Panjabi,

Giani Bhag Singh, pp.28-32).

Earlier Shiromani Gurdwara Parbhandhak Committee Amritsar, after

consultation with Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat, Head Granthi Sri Harmandar Sahib

and other Granthi Sahiban (Panj Piaras) had very clearly given the verdict

in writing vide letter No.366672 dated August 3, 1973 addressed to Sardar

Santokh Singh of Chandigarh. The Assisstant Secretary of the SGPC, S. Gurbax

Singh, wrote

"The Charitro Pakhyan" which are incorporated / included in Dasam Granth are

not the composition of Guru Gobind Singh. This is a copy of the Hindu

Mythology".

Based on the above, the Panjabi University Patiala have produced a

Shabadarth of "Dasam Granth" in three volumes deleting the Charitro Pakhyan.

It is clear, however, that a lot more in the remaining Dasam Granth is not

the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Compilation of Bachitar Natak

The following Historical Events are offered for consideration by the

scholars which have a bearing on this topic.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji left this world in 1539. There is no doubt that Guru Nanak

Dev Ji is the inventor of the complete Gurmukhi script, as it exists today.

When Guru Nanak Dev Ji appeared here, the people of Punjab had been speaking

Punjabi at least for 1000 years, but no book or even writing on the walls

displaying the script was present anywhere. For about 500 years the Muslims

had occupied Punjab and most of India and their Court language was Persian.

Anybody interested in Govt. jobs had to learn the Persian Language and

script. The Hindu religious books were written in Sanskrit and only Brahmins

used to study and learn this script to explain the religion to the Hindus.

The Muslims were interested to learn Arabic for reading Quran. The

Householders and shopkeepers of Punjab were using a crude incomplete script

called "Landa" or "Takri" or "Mahajni" for their day-to-day work. This

script had only 27 letters without any "Maatras". Guru Nanak Dev ji

completed and reshaped the prevalent scripts for writing Panjabi. Guru Arjan

Dev ji had given this clear indication when he wrote on page 432 of A.G.G.S.

: Raag Aasa Mohalla Pehla "Patti Likhi" or the written alphabet. In this

Bani composed by Guru Nanak Sahib all the 35 letters of the "Gurmukhi

Alphabet" are written along with their pronunciation but not in the

alphabetical order in which they are written in the Panjabi Primers. Guru

Nanak Dev ji composed an appropriate aphorism or spiritual truth for each

letter of the alphabet. The first line of this Bani commences from the

letter "Sassai" and Guru Sahib writes "Sasai Soey Srishat Jin Saaji, Sabhna

Sahib ek bhaiya" meaning that "the letter S denotes that personality which

created this universe and who is also the one sahib for all of us". We can

contemplate that this may be the first line which the child Nanak uttered

when the teacher was trying to teach him the alphabet and Nanak had asked

the meaning of "sassa" from his teacher. The next letter mentioned is

"eewari" and the next one is "oorha"... "hahai" is the 34th letter and

"airha" is the 35th letter. It has come to us that Guru Nanak only sang

Gurbani every morning and evening during his last years at Kartarpur. We

have accepted that Guru Angad Dev ji commenced teaching the "Gurmukhi"

alphabet and made the Sangat write Gurbani. It is likely that Guru Angad Dev

ji wrote the alphabetical order of the 35 "Gurmukhi" letters, as it exists

today. It may be mentioned here that the appropriate name of this alphabet

should have been "Nanki" script. "Gurmukhi" name should have been given to

the language of Guru Granth Sahib which is not Panjabi but mixture of large

number of languages and dialects which Guru Nanak Sahib came across during

his travels and the same language was adopted by the successor Nanaks.

Before the compilation of Pothi Sahib in 1604 no other text had been written

in the "Gurmukhi" script as it exist today. Thus, pothi sahib happens to be

the first volume ever written in this complete script formalised by Guru

Nanak Sahib.

During the same period Bhai Gurdas ji, the scribe of Pothi Sahib wrote his

own voluminous poetry in the form of Vaars and Kabits during 1600-1620 in

this script.

"Puratan Janam Sakhi" which came to the notice of the scholars in the

beginning of the 20th Century has been dated by them as being written in

1634. This contains only some anecdotes from the life of Guru Nanak Sahib

only. Some feel that this could be from an earlier edition whose manuscript

is not available now and for this reason the scholars have hypothesized that

the Janam Sakhi was written at the instance of Guru Angad Dev ji. To make it

appear plausible they invented Bhai Bala being the author or scribe of this

Janam Sakhi and also that Bhai Bala accompanied Guru Nanak Dev ji during his

travels. Even painters painted Guru Nanak with his two companions Bala and

Mardana. Bhai Gurdas ji does not mention the name of Bala in the list of

Sikhs of Guru Nanak given by him in his 11th Vaar. Thus Bala may have been

the figment of imagination of some "scholars".

It is a strange fact that no other author or writer wrote anything else in

this "Gurmukhi" script during 136 years i.e. from 1539-1675, when Guru

Gobind Rai Ji became the tenth Nanak. It was obvious to him that from 1539

onwards the Sikhs had been writing Gurbani at the instance of Guru Angad Dev

ji and successive Gurus but neither the Sikhs nor the Panjabi speaking

Hindus and Muslims wrote any other literature in the "Gurmukhi" script. The

Official Court language was Persian and all records were kept in this

language and script. "Ram Charit Manas", the Hindi Version of the Sanskrit

text of Ramayan by Balmik, was written by Tulsi Das around 1600 but had not

reached Panjabi Hindus. Panjabi Hindus used only Landay or Mahajni script

for keeping their personal accounts and sending simple messages. No text has

been discovered written in these crude scripts. The Hindus and Muslims had

absolutely no incentive to learn this script. No poem, anecdote or "Kissa"

or any event from the ancient Hindu and Muslim texts were written by anybody

in this "Gurmukhi" or "Nanki" script up to 1675.

We have no idea what was the population of Sikhs when the tenth Nanak came

on the scene in 1675. We can surmise that during the Muslim domination since

the year 1001 the population of Punjab from Peshawar to Delhi was

distributed as under: Muslims 50%, Hindus 40% or more, Sikhs about 10%. At

the advent of Guru Nanak about 90% of population West of Lahore and Amritsar

had embraced Islam. Thus, 90% of Panjabi speaking Panjabis were keeping

themselves away from the Gurmukhi or Nanaki script.

Worldly Histories of the Gurus: It is stated in the Guru Granth Sahib "Jot

Roop Her Aap Guru Nanak Kahaiyo" (page 1408). "The embodiment of the Light

of the Lord Himself was called Guru Nanak". We all believe that the same

Light was transferred to successive Nanaks, because it has been repeatedly

asserted in the Guru Granth Sahib as well as in the Vaars of Bhai Gurdas.

"The Light of the Lord Himself" had come for a specific purpose and mandate.

To save the Sikhs from not getting themselves involved in the mundane

worldly history of our Gurus, the Gurus saw to it that their personal

histories were not written between 1469-1708. It is very clear from two

prominent historical episodes:

– Bhai Gurdas was a poet of a high calibre. He sat in close proximity to

Guru Arjan Dev ji for 1-2 years to write the Pothi Sahib under supervision

of Guru Sahib. Pothi Sahib was installed in Darbar Sahib in 1604. Guru Arjan

Dev ji's martyrdom occurred in 2-3 days during 1606. This was the first

stunning event for the Panth. It happened when the Panth was undergoing

all-round development and the Sikhs were in very high spirits:

Completion of Darbar Sahib along with its sarover.

The expansion of Amritsar town which was becoming a fast growing trading and

industrial centre.

Taran Taran Gurdwara, Sarover, Town and Leper home; coming up of Chheharta,

Kartarpur (Jalandhar) and commencement of Sri Hargobindpur.

The Sikhs had taken up the trade of bringing army horses from Central Asia

in a big way. Large number of groups of Sikhs were travelling West from

Amritsar and passing through 2000 miles of pure Muslim areas showed their

physical and mental prowess. Coming from the West, Mohsin Fani must have

found groups of Sikhs in Bagdad, Shiraz, Tehran, Kandhar, Kabul etc. which

made him remark that there was hardly any town of the world in which some

Sikhs were not found. Mohsin Fani had met Guru Hargobind Ji and Guru Har Rai

Ji.

Making Daswandh or payment of 10% of one's income as tithe for the Guru

compulsory by Guru Arjan Dev ji was enriching the Guru's treasury making him

undertake all-round development projects.

Guru Arjan Dev ji had commenced holding of Royal Darbars in the morning and

the Sikhs were addressing him as Sachcha Patshah. In this context news of

Guru Arjan Dev ji's Shahidi with Guruji undergoing torture was a bolt from

the blue. This must have shaken the Sikhs. Not only that poetry would have

welled up like a fountain in the mind of Bhai Gurdas, the profolic poet but

he does not mention the fact of Guruji attaining Martyrdom in his Vaars.

It is a strange fact that Bhai Gurdas was born about 20 years after the

ascension of Guru Nanak Dev ji but gives details of 7 important historical

events from the life of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Bhai Gurdas's life span extends from the Guruship of Guru Amar Das Ji, Guru

Ram Das Ji, Guru Arjan Dev Ji and Guru Hargobind Ji but he does not give any

detail about any historical events which happened in front of him during his

life time.

We have no reason not to accept that Bhai Gurdas not writing details of

historical events happening during his lifetime was due to the Gurus

ordering him not to do so. Our Gurus had the "Light of the Lord" in them and

Bhai Gurdas writes about this fact 7 times in his Vaars that this light was

transferred during the life span of Guru Nanak to Guru Angad and the other

Gurus did the same. He repeatedly asserts that there was no difference

between the Primal Lord (Akal Purukh) and our Gurus.

Our Gurus did not want us to involve ourselves in the day-to-day activities

of the Gurus but imbibe the teachings of Gurbani and lead our lives

accordingly. They did not want to create a "Ramayan" of the Sikhs.

Sikhs had become convinced that where as the Hindus and Muslims were slaves

of the Mughal King of Delhi, the Sikhs were members of a sovereign state

under their Sachcha Patshah or True King. It is for this reason that the

non-Sikh writers G.C. Narang, Dr Hari Ram Gupta and Toyanbee accept that the

Gurus had created a state of their own in the Mughal Kingdom. Payne even

gives this development of a separate state power within the Mughal State as

the possible reason for Jahangir wanting to eliminate Guru Arjan Dev ji.

Guru Gobind Rai made a short but notable comment about the Martyrdom of Guru

Tegh Bahadur ji but did not inspire any of the 52 scholars with him to write

about the full details of Guru Tegh Bahadur's Martyrdom or for that matter

give detailed history of his very eventful life including Martyrdom of his

four sons and details of battles fought by him. Bhai Nand Lal wrote a number

of texts in beautiful Persian poetry eulogizing all the Gurus and specially

the Tenth Nanak but does not write a single line about the worldly life of

any Guru and does not mention any event from the life of Guru Gobind Singh

ji. We must accept that this was a deliberate plan of our Gurus that they

did not want the Sikhs to waste their time and energy in relating the

day-to-day activity of our Gurus but wanted us to study in depth the

teachings given in the Gurbani. Bhai Gurdas writes this in great length that

Gurmukhs have to control and rise above the five vices of lust, anger,

greed, attachment and ego and lead lives in utter detachment in this world.

Our Gurus had created a body of people whom they regarded truly an "Army of

Akal Purakh" or "Khalsa of Waheguru" (Primal Lord). This unique body of men

ever ready to lay down their lives for upholding truth and for creating a

Utopian State in the world where the poor, downtrodden would be uplifted and

amity would be brought about between different ethnic groups and classes was

given a distinctive uniform by the Tenth Nanak. Our Gurus wanted the Sikhs

not to get themselves involved in any "Ramayana" of Sikhs and they did not

want to take any risk that the Sikhs may then evolve any "Shariat" type

rules for the Sikhs from this "Sikh Ramayana".

Guru Gobind Rai's scientific Plan for encouraging or stimulating Hindus to

learn the Gurmukhi Script.

It was apparent to Guru Gobind Rai that the Hindus were deeply attached to

relate, recount and listen or watch enactment of the Mythological Stories

just as they are even today. The most popular T.V. Serials in India are

those which are based on the Mythological Stories of the past and now these

serials can be created easily with the help of computers Guru Gobind ji

utilized this love of mythology for which the Hindu public was dependent

upon the Sanskrit knowing Brahmans. He encouraged the large number of

scholars with him to write in "Gurmukhi" script and easily understood local

language all the mythological stories. He sent 5 Sikhs to Varanasi to learn

Sanskrit and details of mythology. It was very easy for Panjabi speaking

Hindus to learn the scientific script of this language and write not only

mythology but any other compositions in it. It is for this reason that two

poets wrote two "Chandi Charitars" and another "Chandi di Vaar". Other poets

recorded under the broad heading of "Chaubees Avtars" or "The twenty four

incarnations" several mythological stories from Ramayana and Mahabharat.

Soon this literature became voluminous and a major portion of this was lost

in the last battle of Anandpur but the objective of Guru ji was achieved.

Various writers wrote in Gurmukhi script several pieces of literature and

also translated from other language texts. Some other writings in other

languages and scripts were written as such in this "Gurmukhi" script. S.

Gurtej Singh's English book "CHAKRAVYUH'S first topic is about "Amar Nama".

This "Amar Nama" was written by a contemporary of Guru Gobind Singh ji and

is dated 8th October 1708. This contains account of the ascension of Guru

Sahib on 7th Oct. 1708. The point of interest for us is that this text of

Persian language is written is Gurmukhi Script. This showed that now Hindus

considered writing of Persian easier in Gurmukhi Script. Although many

Hindus were speaking Persian but Persian being a difficult script they had

learnt to write Persian in "Gurmukhi" Script.

Dr. D.S. Gupta wrote an article in Panjabi Tribune on 11-5-1997 on the topic

of "Hand written Manuscripts in Gurmukhi Script" According to the author

many 300-year-old manuscripts in Gurmukhi script are present in the DAV

College Chandigarh Library. In these manuscripts are Bani of Guru Gobind

Singh ji, Chandi Charitar, Vaars of Bhai Gurdas, Texts of Guru Gobind

Singhs' Poets, Ashawamedh, Sukh Sagar, Ram Charit Manas, Bhagwat Puran etc.

Grierson 1918 (L.S. of India Vol 9 Part I Page 624) writes that it is true

that many texts of different languages were written in Gurmukhi script in

the 17th & 18th Centuries.

Guru Gobind Singh's successful plan for inducing Muslims to write in

Gurmukhi Script. If we compare the "Jaap Sahib" and "Akal Ustat", the two

well known Banis' of the Tenth Master with the Urdu version of "Quran", then

we can draw this conclusion immediately that not only Guru ji wrote these

Banis on the pattern of Quran but the subject matter of these is very

similar to that of Quran. Mohammad Sahib wrote about 100 qualities of Allah

or Akal Purkh and Guru ji has used all these words in his Bani. When the

Muslims listened to the Banis of "Jaap Sahib" and Akal Ustat then on the one

hand they became ardent admirers of Guru Gobind ji that the ideology of Guru

ji was akin to that of Quran and it appeared to them as if Guru ji was

writing translation of Quran. On the other hand, the Panjabi speaking

Muslims realised that they can propagate Quran through the Gurmukhi Script

and can even write Persian in this easy to learn script as compared to the

difficult Persian Script. If the Sikh scholars of the time had given the

name of "Nanki" to this script then this script would have remained popular

among all Panjabi speaking people even today. The name "Gurmukhi" denoted

that this was the religious script of the Sikhs and hence the cause of

aversion of non-Sikhs to learn and use it. Guru Nanak was equally popular

amongst all the Panjabi Speaking population. We can change the name of the

script even today.

"Ub Maien Apni Katha Bakhano..."(And Now I Relate My Own Story):

It is strange that learned scholars have ignored the obvious and staring

truth that this so called autobiographical poetry can never be the writing

of the Tenth Nanak. Guru Gobind Rai was the Tenth Nanak and the "Light of

the Lord Himself" which was given to Guru Nanak ji or about which Guru Nanak

ji became aware when he had emerged from "Bein" stream was passed on to him

by Guru Tegh Bahadur ji at Anandpur Sahib before Guru Tegh Bahadur ji had

commenced his journey to Delhi for his Martyrdom. What is this so called

"autobiographical" poetry? This is a very well planned attack on Sikhi of

Guru Nanak to create a wedge between Sikhs of Guru Nanak and "Sikhs of Guru

Gobind" and to create utter confusion in the minds of simple Sikhs. Guru

Nanak Dev ji had made it very clear to the Sidhs at Achal Vatala and had

recorded the same in his "Bani Sidh Goshat" while decrying asceticism and

penance had stated:

"What is the good of wandering about? It is through contemplation of the

Lord that the man is rendered pure". "As a lotus flower remains unaffected

in water, as also a duck swims against the stream's current and becomes not

wet, so with fixed intent on the Guru's word and uttering the Name, O Nanak,

the dreadful world ocean is crossed." (Page 938).

According to this autobiographical note in the Bachittar Natak Guru Gobind

Singh is made to write:

"Mur Pit Poorab Keeus Piana

Bhaant Bhaant ke Tirath Nahna

Jubb he Jaat Tribeni Bhayae

Punn Daan Dinn Karat Bitayae

Tahi Parkash Hamara Bhaiyo

Patna Shehar Vikhey Bhav Layio."

This means, "that to fulfill his desire for begetting a son, my father

journeyed towards the East visiting and bathing at the various pilgrimage

Centres. When he reached Tribeni (confluence of Ganga, Jamuna and Saraswati

at Alahabad) be spent many a day giving alms and making donations where in

we entered the womb. Ultimately I entered this world at Patna." Guru Nanak

had said clearly about bathing at Pilgrim Centres:

"Teerath Nahwan Jey Tiss Bhaavan, Vinn Bhaney Key Naahey Kari." When I earn

his pleasure that becomes my bathing at holy place. Without pleasing Him

what is the value of such a bath." Japji page 2.

"Teerath Nahwan Jao Teerath Naam Hai. Teerath Sabad Beechar, Antar Gian Hai"

shall I go to bathe at a pilgrim centre? Contemplating God's Name is the

real place of Pilgrimage (Dhanasri, M.I, p.687).

Guru Nanak had castigated Sidhs for remaining away from the public

contemplating God and had stated:

"Raheh Ikant eiko mann vasiya Aasa Mahai Niraso.

Agamm Agochar dekh dikhaye Nanak taaka Daaso."

"Living detached in the world, enshrining the One Lord in the mind, shorn of

desires in the midst of desires, seeing and showing to others the

inaccessible Lord, of him Nanak is slave" Sidh Gosht, p.938. on the other

hand, the author of Bachittar Natak writes that "Guru ji spent years & years

contemplating in snow at Hemkunt worshiping Mahakaal and Kalika and

submitted to the Lord with bowed head that Panth would be formed with Your

assistance." Now Guru Nanak had commenced Panth and Bhai Gurdas ji had

remarked in the First Vaar "Nanak Nimal Panth Chalaya" and all the

successive Nanaks were contributing and consolidating the same. The writer

of "my own story" was confident that this would create a wedge and with this

the Khalsa Panth along with Guru Gobind Singh would become a separate entity

from the Nimal Panth of Guru Nanak. This story was written soon after the

ascension of Guru Gobind Singh ji to create this rift. The reason was that

while creating Khalsa in 1699 Guru Gobind ji had removed all the disgruntled

elements from the Panth, all those who had been creating fissions i.e. Ram

Raiyas, Meenas and Masands and thus had created one unitary Panth. It was

indeed a plan of our Gurus to show us that these Masands had become totally

corrupt even in the Guru period and hence Guru Gobind Singh ji had asked the

Khalsa to send their compulsory Daswandh directly to him. Guru Gobind Singh

ji meant clearly that this Daswandh after him would create a Central

Treasury of the Panth. This move of the author of my story was a clever plan

to undo the edict of Guru Gobind Singh ji at the time of Creation of Khalsa.

Random Remarks of Guru Gobind Singh ji in the "Dasam Granth".

The various court poets would recite their compositions in front of Guru

Gobind Rai and Guru Sahib would utter a few lines to make his personal

philosophy very clear:

At the end of "Ram Avtar" chhand No.863 & 864 are the comments of Guru

Sahib:

Savaiya

"Pahein gahay jabtay tumray, tab tay kou aankh taray nahi aanyo.

Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay mut ek na maanyo.

Simarat Shastra Bed sabai bahu bhed kahai hum ek na jaanyo.

Sri Aspaan kripa tumri kar mai na kahyo Sabh toh bakhaanyo."

Ever since I have grasped Your feet, I have not thought of anybody else.

I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in

Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran.

The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not

subscribe to any of them.

O God, the Sword-bearer (of justice)! With Your Grace, all that has been

uttered by me has been done under Your command.

Dohra!

"Sagal duar kao chhad kay, gahiyo tuharo duar

Baahen Gahey ki laaj us, Gobind dass tuhar."

I have shunned every door and have entered Your door

Please hold my arm and keep my honour, Gobind is ever Your slave.

At the end of the long poem entitled "Krishna Avtar" Guru ji writes his own

Savaiya:

"Dhan jio tih ko jag mai, mukh tay Har, chit mai judh beechaarai.

Deh anit na nit rahay, jus naav charay bhav saagar taarai.

Dheeraj dhaam banai ihai tan, budh su deepak jiu ujiaarai.

Gianeh kee badhni manaho haath lai, kaatartaa kutwaar buhaarai."

Blessed is the life of that person in the world who recites the Holy Name

with his mouth and contemplates fight against evil in his mind.

He regards the body as a temporary vesture and uses the boat of the Lord's

Name to cross the rough world-ocean.

He makes a closet of patience in his body and illumines the mind with the

lamp of divine knowledge,

He takes up the broom of (spiritual) wisdom in his hands and sweeps away all

cowardice and falsehood.

Adulteration of Akal Ustat

In the Akal Ustat authored by Guru Gobind Singh ji, a clever poet has

inserted 20 Chhands under the heading of "Deeragh Tribhangi Chhand" from

Canto 211-230. These 20 cantos are not in praise of the Primal Lord like the

whole Bani of Akal Ustat, but are in praise of Goddess Durga.

Other Compositions of Guru Gobind Singh ji in "Dasam Granth":

"Shabad Hazare Patshahi Dasween."

In these 10 Shabads, 9 Shabads are clearly in accordance with the Bani of

Guru Granth Sahib but the 6th Shabad: "Mittar Piare Noo...n....." is very

different. Its language also is very different from all the other

compositions of Guru Gobind Singh ji and may be a later interpolation.

33 Savaiyas.

This composition has been accepted by the Panth to be the Bani of Guru

Gobind Singh ji. The first Savaiya of this Bani describes the life pattern

to be adopted by the Khalsa and thus is the core Rehat of the Khalsa Panth

Zafarnama.

This is without doubt the writing of Guru Gobind Singh ji. This composition

is unique. Having last thousands of his Sikhs in the last battle of Anandpur

and later losing all his four sons and running as a fugitive from the Mughal

army hunting him, Guru ji writes this letter of victory to Aurangzeb. Guruji

castigated Aurangzeb for his behaviour which was totally unbecoming of an

avowed Muslim. "What if I have lost my four sons when thousands more have

been created by me. I have won a moral victory for my ideology". This was an

abject lesson both for the Mughal King as well as the Sikhs. This Zafarnamah

had made a lasting imprint on the Sikh Psyche responsible for the undaunted

spirit of the Khalsa.

Bhangani Yudh and Nadaun Yudh

The battles of Bhangani and Nadaun are described briefly by Guru Gobind

Singh ji in beautiful Braj Bhasha. These compositions were specifically

written by him to portray that he and his Sikhs fought like ordinary mortals

without invoking special supernatural powers. This was in complete contrast

to the battle scenes described in Chandi Charitars, Chandi Di Vaar and

Chaubees Avtaar. In these battle scenes of Hindu Mythology, the Gods and

Goddesses are shown fighting after having obtained supernatural powers from

God. Thus Guruji is showing his personal philosophy being "Maien Hoon Param

Purakh Ko Dasa, Dekhan Aiyo Jagat Tamasha" meaning that Guruji was a slave

or servant of the Primal Lord who had come into this world to witness the

great drama being enacted here.

No previous Nanak had written any personal anecdotes in the Guru Granth

Sahib and hence this was another good reason that Guru Gobind Singh ji did

not include any of his personal writings in the Guru Granth Sahib. He only

added the Bani of Guru Tegh Bahadur ji in the Pothi Sahib which had been

compiled by Guru Arjan Dev ji and had bestowed the Eternal Guruship to the

Pothi Sahib converting it into "The Guru Granth Sahib" – The Eternal Guru.

N.B.

For those without the spare three to four years to learn various languages,

I suggest you start with the english translation, if anyone is intrested in

getting their hands on a copy, mail me.

Gur Fateh

Sukhbir Singh

[Guest Javanmard]

Regarding the translations I recommend Dr. Jodh Singh's partial translation but above all Dr. Rattan Singh Jaggi's Panjabi translation available for free on the net on www.dasamgranth.org. It's in Pdf format and it's really worth it. The translation is more accurate. Dr. Jodh Singh does cut several important passages whcih is really a pity and sometimes he mistranslates certain words but on the whole it's not that bad. I would like to remind people here that reading English translations is not enough. Tranlsation is treason, as some literature specialists have said and it's always better to be able to read the original. All you need is a bit of effort.

[Mugermach Singh]

just a note on the translations. the one on dasamgranth.org is not the complete dasam granth. A lot is there but not all.

also Dr. Jodh singh translations, as far as i know, there are only two books, so this too is incomplete.

[Guest Javanmard]

Yes Mugermach

Uggardant is missing as well as Sukhmana Sahib, GobindGita and other parts. Thanks for your observation.

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

There is a translation of Uggardanti and Shaster Naam Mala in a small volume (also missing from Dr. Jodh Singh's 2 volumes) by Harjinder Singh Kanwal. You can find out details on the Sikh-heritage website. I couldn't comment on how competent the translation is.

[Guest Javanmard]

Yeah the translation is not too bad but he makes a mistake when there is mention of nila bana. The author seems to be too much namdharified but apart from that yes good book.

[yogidas]

SUKHMANA SAHIB in Dasam Granth ????

ain't ever heard of that, anyone care to elaborate??

pewety pleese??

[Guest -akalsharan-]

SUKHMANA SAHIB in Dasam Granth ????

ain't ever heard of that, anyone care to elaborate??

pewety pleese??

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...hlight=sukhmana

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Sukhbir knows where he is coming from. Keep up the great work. Teach these people and get them away from their brahmnical views. Join under one maryada and move forward. Make Khalistan and spread the word of Guru Sahiban. We have been at 25 million since a decade.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Not even 25 million 80% are sirgum.

[challenge_everything]

Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Chhianve Karoree gives santhiaa of Aad Guru Granth Sahib, Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib. Baba Ji also teaches the katha of historical texts such as Panth Parkash by Rattan Singh Bhangoo.

You can get katha tapes of Jathedar Ji... the katha is so chardi kala! Baba Ji's understanding of gurbani is amazing and the interpretations which Baba Ji present are enlightening.

Gurbarakaaaaaaaaaal!

[H4RPAL]

where can you get the tapes from?

[challenge_everything]

Bhatinda - Shromani Akaali Panth Buddha Dal head quarters

[doaba]

u can also get them in patiala at Baba Bamba Singh Baghichi. 1 of the main Budha Dal shornia. Baba Udey Singh is the main guy there. But most likely u won't catch him there so just go to the shop. Also u can as at any mohalla at any time depending on the time of year and where the dal is moving at that moment. right now its obvious at Anandpur Sahib.

i've heard 1 tape of his and Baba Santa Singhs curses the crap out of indra Gandhi. thats so hard to believe but its true. Something about they anted to do a mohalla around delhi but the givernent didn't allow it but the fauj did it anyways. it was well funny on the tape. it also talks about raga mala. Erm the main point was. After Guru Gobind Singh if there was such a human being with the same amount of knowledge of raags and everything how come he is not famous for writing the raag mala if it wasn't guru Himself.

Baba Santa Singh does wicked Katha every1 shoud go and meet him and just listen. He is deffo 1 of the most powerful ppl on this planet.

[SAadmin]

can we some how record this tape veer ji?? aad encode into mp3

That is will certainly clear lot of mis-concepations people have towards jathedar santa singh ji?