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Bhai Vir Singh'S Editing Of Panth Prakash


dalsingh101

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actually i wasnt even aware of your typo. subconcious referencing.

neither Ganda or Kahan are impressive to me as they are also propagandists. but this isnt relevant to this discussion. i do not understand why you keep gong off on tangents?

what you are essentially doing is offering more excuse:

1. 'its not so black and white'. urm well yes it is? one word 'deception'.

2. 'we must look at things in context'. why, this doesnt alter tha fact that he deceived people.

3. 'history is enitrely subjective anyway'. this is called opportunistic reasoning. in this case you should do away with all historical narratives.

4. 'Singh Sabha saved sikhs from going astray' the typical Singh Sabha myth for its raison d'etre. If someone sincerely reads Gurbani how is it possible that they can go astray?

5. 'Vir Siongh did alot of panjabi'- so he published a few novels. so what? this isnt even relevant to this discussion. i already said this. or are you saying that fiction was his strong point? maybe he should have stuck to the fiction.

The average sikh today probably hasnt even heard of this or other historical texts, so your assertions about Vir Singh popularising them are rubbish.

the 'you people' is you, because its obvious by the attempts to make excuses on his behalf that you sympathise with these people and their aims.

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neither Ganda or Kahan are impressive to me as they are also propagandists. but this isnt relevant to this discussion. i do not understand why you keep gong off on tangents?

Keep up dude! They aren't tangents. Your pushing the idea that the SS made no contribution to Sikhi other than false propaganda, I'm highlighting SSs that made immense strides in understanding Sikh history and Sikh theology. Ganda Singh is the father of modern Sikh history (ithihaas as opposed to mitihaas). He uncovered all if not the majority of major Persian sources of Sikh history, he initiated writing quality books on Sikh history that took the discipline away from recording hearsay and mythologising events, to creating critically evalutive accounts. He contextualised Sikh history properly by making effort to study the peripheral factors around it (see his work on Shah Durrani for example). If you don't find Kahan's Mahan Kosh impressive.....??!?!?!.....have you even perused it? It is a treasure trove and even more impressive when you consider he produced it prior to modern computer technology.

what you are essentially doing is offering more excuse:

No I'm not, I'm looking for explanations/understanding.

1. 'its not so black and white'. urm well yes it is? one word 'deception'.

Are you claiming all SS were consciously doing this? Other than an article I posted myself, give me more evidence please.

2. 'we must look at things in context'. why, this doesnt alter tha fact that he deceived people.

Okay so are you now saying BVS deceived and not SSs in general?

3. 'history is enitrely subjective anyway'. this is called opportunistic reasoning. in this case you should do away with all historical narratives.

No it isn't opportunistic reasoning, it is the truth. When you understand their biases, historical narratives are valuable. Only a fool takes them without involving his/her critical faculties.

4. 'Singh Sabha saved sikhs from going astray' the typical Singh Sabha myth for its raison d'etre. If someone sincerely reads Gurbani how is it possible that they can go astray?

It seems like you haven't spent much time with common Sikhs when you say things like this. I know plenty of people who keep their nitnem punctiliously, and have done for years, and still have a very poor understanding of the meanings of what they read. Human nature is very complex my friend, and whether we go astray or not is no simple matter. Look at the recent conviction of an Amritdhari bibi and her son for murdering her daughter in law for wanting a divorce. Plenty of peoplre have a certain level of religiosity that is starkly contradicted by other actions they do. Reading Gurbani alone doesn't guarantee not going astray, a large part of that is nadar I guess.

5. 'Vir Siongh did alot of panjabi'- so he published a few novels. so what? this isnt even relevant to this discussion. i already said this. or are you saying that fiction was his strong point? maybe he should have stuck to the fiction.

The average sikh today probably hasnt even heard of this or other historical texts, so your assertions about Vir Singh popularising them are rubbish..

I don't think you have a first clue about what you talking about here. Do you know how influential his works were? Surely even you must admit that going through massive manuscripts and breaking up each word and then publishing the works require some serious effort and determination. I posted a link to a Panth Prakash manuscript, if you can read Gurmukhi, have a go at doing a few lines even. Suraj Prakash alone was published in fourteen volumes, over nearly ten years. Many gianis have used the contents in their katha, so indirectly, the work has been more influential that you may imagine. Besides, Sikhs being largely ignorant of their heritage and faith is no ones fault but their own.

the 'you people' is you, because its obvious by the attempts to make excuses on his behalf that you sympathise with these people and their aims.

I guess the main thing I agree with is the principle of the need for some commonality of belief between Sikhs. So you don't have two people who are Sikh but have such divergent beliefs that they may as well be in two completely different faiths. So I guess I'm not a pluralist, but at the same time I don't share SSs puritan streak.

Navjot, the way you go on, I think you'd probably like to stone the SSs to death had they been around today. lol

Think about unity, not more unneccesary infighting.

panjabi writers of the mid to late 1800's mutilated punjabi by trying to turn it into psuedo-hindi and pseudo-English.

Groan, read up on linguistics, all languages develop/evolve like this to incorporate other languages they encounter. Why not cry about adding an extra line to the Gurmukhi alphabet to include Persian/Arabic sounds around the time of Dasmesh pita also then?

Edited by dalsingh101
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Bhai Vir Singh did some nice jobs. I have read that he DID edit out various portions of Panth Parkash. Howhever he only put footnotes in Suraj Prakash Granth.

Bhai Vir Singh was not really a great Gursikh, as he stole works of Gyani Gian Singh and published them as articles. Not really what a Gursikh would do.

Chandi thing is anti Gurmat, whether its stated in Puratan work or not. Not all Puratan works are authentic, most have been tampered with and some other wrote with other agendas.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Bhai Vir Singh was not really a great Gursikh, as he stole works of Gyani Gian Singh and published them as articles. Not really what a Gursikh would do.

Can you elaborate on this please?

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Bhai Vir Singh was not really a great Gursikh, as he stole works of Gyani Gian Singh and published them as articles. Not really what a Gursikh would do.

Bhai Vir Singh Jee was not only a great scholar, writer, poet but also a Singh who did a lot of Bhagti. He has had spiritual experiences and translated Gurbani in light of his spiritual experiences and great knowledge.

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Mithar

Some of those changes in the article are strange though, like the attitude towards Bidhi Chand and Sikh poverty.

I admire Bhai Vir Singh but some things don't make sense. Like he was a prolific writer and poet but failed to write anything about major events in his own time like Jallian wallah bagh and partition?

All in all, I am glad he produced the body of work he did for posterity, that isn't to say it is the final word in the topics he wrote of. His contribution is seriously appreciated though and Sikh literature is richer for it.

Edited by dalsingh101
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Can you elaborate on this please?

Gyani Gyan Singh got really sick and there were no chances that he would survive. Bhai Vir Singh along others coexed Gyani Gyan Singh into signing all his (unpublished) works to his society and also promised a pension of 12 rupees a month. Nothing less than a miracle, Gyan Gyan Singh started to get well... Alas it was too late... His expunged articles were published by Bhai Vir Singh in his newspapers. Gyani Gyan Singh tried to get back his effort filled material for 17 years, but most of it had been published, lost or destroyed.

Bhai Vir Singh Jee was not only a great scholar, writer, poet but also a Singh who did a lot of Bhagti. He has had spiritual experiences and translated Gurbani in light of his spiritual experiences and great knowledge.

Spiritual experiences for stealing others works?

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Gyani Gyan Singh got really sick and there were no chances that he would survive. Bhai Vir Singh along others coexed Gyani Gyan Singh into signing all his (unpublished) works to his society and also promised a pension of 12 rupees a month. Nothing less than a miracle, Gyan Gyan Singh started to get well...

you have just made that up. i have read that gian singh knew that he was dying, and having lied about guru ji taking afheem, was worried that he would die in agony, so he asked vir singh to have his works, correct them and publish them, after this happened gian singh recovered.

Edited by chatanga1
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Found this from the Sikh encyclopedia:

Suffering a prolonged illness in Amritsar, Giani Gian Singh transferred his unpublished manuscripts as well as his rights in published books to the Khalsa Tract Society for a subsistence allowance of Rs 12 per month. He survived his illness, and returned to Patiala where he received ready patronage of the ruling family.

http://thesikhencyclopedia.com/sikh-mystics-and-traditional-scholars/gian-singh-giani.html

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Gyani Gyan Singhs own words which are held in Ripudiman Parkash

‘Then they [bhai Vir Singh et al] had a pledge made to me. Whatever they desired they wrote down, I signed it. For my upkeep, they promised 12 Rupees a month. They also wrote down a special ‘Gurmata’ (Guru’s pledge): “Whatever Giani Ji writes, we will publish it”. These pledges they made, they kept none. Great injustice, great atrocity they did to me. Nor did they give back my scripts, nor themselves published them. 17 years has passed since I wrote and gave them. They kept them and kept putting me off. May the Guru himself, bless such Sikhs with right thinking. May they not do to others, as they have deceived me. The hard work of this old man done in 30 years. These unappreciative, unthankful have kept wasting. The service, which I had done for the Panth forsake of its good, [they have ruined] as hail destroys a ripened crop field. The benefit that the Khalsa would have had from my works, the society did not let it be - the Panth remained without benefit. From my ocean-like (immense) work, the society published tracts. Money and fame they gained [from the works] these [so-called Tat Khalsa] leaders of the Panth.’

‘Ripudaman Prakash’, edited by Giani Kirpal Singh, Pa. 9-10

‘Their name is ‘Singh’ but they are thieves at heart. They deceive, feigning sweet intentions. Taking up the banner of Panth’s service. They steal from your pockets. They exclaim aloud of doing ‘Panthik Seva’. This way, deceiving the people they eat. Then, I explained to my mind - Oh mind you have been greatly deceived by them...Then I became greatly disheartened, I stopped singing glory of the Panth. I indulged myself in but ‘Sas Abhias’ (meditation on God). My mind I fixed on God.’

‘Ripudaman Prakash’, edited by Giani Kirpal Singh, Pa.6-13

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Bhai Vir Singh did some nice jobs. I have read that he DID edit out various portions of Panth Parkash. Howhever he only put footnotes in Suraj Prakash Granth.

Bhai Vir Singh was not really a great Gursikh, as he stole works of Gyani Gian Singh and published them as articles. Not really what a Gursikh would do.

Chandi thing is anti Gurmat, whether its stated in Puratan work or not. Not all Puratan works are authentic, most have been tampered with and some other wrote with other agendas.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I have only ever known of tampering of Sikh texts by Sikhs.

Please refer to page 185, Volume 1 of Sri Sarbloh Granth Steek by Baba Santa Singh to see their comment on the editing of Suraj Parkash and Sri Nanak Parkash.

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Gyani Gyan Singhs own words which are held in Ripudiman Parkash

Then they [bhai Vir Singh et al] had a pledge made to me. Whatever they desired they wrote down, I signed it. For my upkeep, they promised 12 Rupees a month. They also wrote down a special Gurmata (Gurus pledge): Whatever Giani Ji writes, we will publish it. These pledges they made, they kept none. Great injustice, great atrocity they did to me. Nor did they give back my scripts, nor themselves published them. 17 years has passed since I wrote and gave them. They kept them and kept putting me off. May the Guru himself, bless such Sikhs with right thinking. May they not do to others, as they have deceived me. The hard work of this old man done in 30 years. These unappreciative, unthankful have kept wasting. The service, which I had done for the Panth forsake of its good, [they have ruined] as hail destroys a ripened crop field. The benefit that the Khalsa would have had from my works, the society did not let it be - the Panth remained without benefit. From my ocean-like (immense) work, the society published tracts. Money and fame they gained [from the works] these [so-called Tat Khalsa] leaders of the Panth.

Ripudaman Prakash, edited by Giani Kirpal Singh, Pa. 9-10

Their name is Singh but they are thieves at heart. They deceive, feigning sweet intentions. Taking up the banner of Panths service. They steal from your pockets. They exclaim aloud of doing Panthik Seva. This way, deceiving the people they eat. Then, I explained to my mind - Oh mind you have been greatly deceived by them...Then I became greatly disheartened, I stopped singing glory of the Panth. I indulged myself in but Sas Abhias (meditation on God). My mind I fixed on God.

Ripudaman Prakash, edited by Giani Kirpal Singh, Pa.6-13

the first paragraph seems to be more a direct copy and paste job from sarblos.info. we all know what their agenda is. isnt it a bit hankaari of gian singh to say that "i have all this knowledge...the service i have done for the panth..." etc.

the second paragraph could be equally and easily appled to Baba Santa Singh's conduct over Akal Takht repairs in 84.

it sounds like gian singh knowing he was going to die thought the only way the sikhs will know of the work he has done is to giv it to vir singh et all, then finding when he has recovered, wanting it back so he can recieve the adulation directly rather than indirectly.

Edited by chatanga1
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Great deflection Chatanga Sahib, I never knew you was an Antarjami that you can tell the inner thoughts of people who died decades ago!

The quote is indeed from the Sarbloh website, if you wish to disregard it purely on its source then that is your own choice, the last time I was asked to provide the original text as proof to show any tampering (Twarikh Guru Khalsa in regards to the decline of Shastarvidiya) it was proved that the translation was 100% correct. No one would provide a refference with titles, authors and page numbers and then do a incorrect translation as that surely damages the integrity of the source. Its not hard to get hold of these books and check up yourself.

If you are really lazy, Ill get the page scanned in for you so you can check yourself, or will you then twist and sqew the reality, and then brush it off as gyani gyan singhs hunger for money and fame, or some agenda? So much for searchers of truth.

No human is infallible, if people make a mistake then accept they made a mistake, no need to blacken someone elses face in order to keep anothers clean.

Edited by Maha Singh
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What a head shaft this all is!

He said, she said, he did, she did. Flipping hell!

lol

Dare I ask, who is this Kirpal Singh who edited Ripudman prakash then?

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Gyani Gyan Singhs own words which are held in Ripudiman Parkash

‘Then they [bhai Vir Singh et al] had a pledge made to me. Whatever they desired they wrote down, I signed it. For my upkeep, they promised 12 Rupees a month. They also wrote down a special ‘Gurmata’ (Guru’s pledge): “Whatever Giani Ji writes, we will publish it”. These pledges they made, they kept none. Great injustice, great atrocity they did to me. Nor did they give back my scripts, nor themselves published them. 17 years has passed since I wrote and gave them. They kept them and kept putting me off. May the Guru himself, bless such Sikhs with right thinking. May they not do to others, as they have deceived me. The hard work of this old man done in 30 years. These unappreciative, unthankful have kept wasting. The service, which I had done for the Panth forsake of its good, [they have ruined] as hail destroys a ripened crop field. The benefit that the Khalsa would have had from my works, the society did not let it be - the Panth remained without benefit. From my ocean-like (immense) work, the society published tracts. Money and fame they gained [from the works] these [so-called Tat Khalsa] leaders of the Panth.’

‘Ripudaman Prakash’, edited by Giani Kirpal Singh, Pa. 9-10

‘Their name is ‘Singh’ but they are thieves at heart. They deceive, feigning sweet intentions. Taking up the banner of Panth’s service. They steal from your pockets. They exclaim aloud of doing ‘Panthik Seva’. This way, deceiving the people they eat. Then, I explained to my mind - Oh mind you have been greatly deceived by them...Then I became greatly disheartened, I stopped singing glory of the Panth. I indulged myself in but ‘Sas Abhias’ (meditation on God). My mind I fixed on God.’

‘Ripudaman Prakash’, edited by Giani Kirpal Singh, Pa.6-13

The problem with copy and paste from a Niddarite site like Sarbloh.info is that one can’t help but look at the translation with suspicion. Unless someone can provide the original Punjabi version from a book which proves Giani Gian Singh wrote this because the Niddarite English translation cannot be blindly relied on as being authentic. Niddarite sites have a history of misquoting and mistranslating.

As for the Shastar vidya quote, it didn't prove anything. There is nothing to prove that Niddar’s martial art (which I believe is his own creation) is puraatan. All Indian martial arts are called “Shastar Vidya” which means knowledge of weapons. As Tony hp mentioned, it is very likely that Teja Singh or Niddar Singh probably came across this quote from Giani Gian Singh’s book and from that time on changed the name of Niddar’s martial arts from “Chatka Gatka” to “Shastar Vidya” to give it some legitimacy as being puraatan.

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even if giani gian singh said it, it doesnt make it true. Gianiji also said that Guru Ji took afheem. you beleoive this is true as well?

Chatanga Sahib, as a mutual exchange of information, will you provide a scan of the passage where Gyani Gyan Singh states that Guru Gobind Singh took feem?

All history should be read in context to the time space circumstance such things were written in, cross refferencing them with other historical accounts in an attempt to extract the correct truth. Having the belief that "If I dont believe it happened, it didnt happen" doesnt really wash when trying to learn history, your better off not reading at all.

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Chatanga Sahib, as a mutual exchange of information, will you provide a scan of the passage where Gyani Gyan Singh states that Guru Gobind Singh took feem?

All history should be read in context to the time space circumstance such things were written in, cross refferencing them with other historical accounts in an attempt to extract the correct truth. Having the belief that "If I dont believe it happened, it didnt happen" doesnt really wash when trying to learn history, your better off not reading at all.

Some asshole wrote it (like he was there when guru took feem).

Now you are proving to be bigger assholes posting it on net, spreading guru ninda.

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good point maha singh ji. we also shouldnt have the attitude that if someone says soemthing thats fit in with what we beleive to be correct then, they are always correct and others are always incorrect.

i have never said it didnt happen. i just dont beleieve that it happened the way gian singh is saying.

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Of course Chatanga, it works both ways when searching for truth. I dont view everyone and everything as suspicious if it differs from my view, nor do I feel I have to swear or call others assholes.

I am now being accused of Gur Ninda because I asked for a page refference! Its better to discuss things and come to a conclusion, rather then push everything under the carpet for someone else to discover and then not having the foundations to tackle it.

Edited by Maha Singh
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Its better to discuss things and come to a conclusion, rather then push everything under the carpet for someone else to discover and then not having the foundations to tackle it.

Aha! I see you are talking about the legendary Sikh Ostrich style Kung Fu! When confronted by issues do a lalkara and then quickly bury your head in the ground and wait until you think enough time has passed for the problem to disappear!

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