Strange Hinduism

[HarjasDevi]

Oh yes, Sant Bhindranwale Ji is our version of Hitler according to her, and we should all treat a few hindus pulled off a bus and being shot by god knows who as some kind of Holocaust.

When did I say this? Why put fake words in my mouth only to create straw man argument you can shoot down. Use my own words directly as a quote if you have a problem with them and don't make up fake things and put them in my mouth.

I am opposed to militants attacking Hindus witout provocation who are innocent and unarmed. I have degree of respect for Sant Ji, though I believe he was sincerely misguided. And never have I claimed he was a Hitler. Stop your lying.

[chatanga1]

Did it really? I thought it was war and oppression caused by the Mughal Muslims which brought the religion of the Prophet to Hindustan by force. Sikhi came into existance to defend the innocent against persecutions by Muslims. And it is true that Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji has historically had the title of Hind di chaadar, the blanket of protection of the Hindus. What did Guruji protect the Hindus from? From Muslim atrocities committed in the name of terrorizing kafirs until they converted and their own religion was destroyed. I'm sorry if it offends you. But it is no extremism on my part to tell the historical truth. The Guru Sahibaan were never against Islam the way Islam was against Sanatana Dharma, and indeed took efforts to be fair and Dharmic at all times to the literal enemy, as we see in example of Bhai Kanaya giving water to wounded Muslim soldiers fighting the Sikhs. How could the Sikhs both literally be fighting a war against Muslims and be a part of Muslims? It makes no sense. Some spiritual Muslim people who were opposed to the injustices of the Mughal Raj did in fact come to the Sikh Guru's in support. And some of those actually became the Guru's chelas. But in order to become that, they had first by bowing to Guru, lose their Islam. Because you cannot at one time bow your hairs to Sikh Guru and be a Muslim.

firstly, Bibi Ji, thye hindus fought many wars between themselves and it was one party that invited the muslims to india.

secondly, a lot of the lower castes converted to islam to escape the untouchability nonsense of the hindus.

thirdly, sikhi came into existence to protect all mankind from wasting their human life. not to protect any one community.

fourthly, you ask how can sikhs fight muslims and be a part of them, I wish you to clarify how the Sikhs fought against the hindu armies and can still be part of them. Who was Guru Gobind SIngh Ji protecting the Sikhs from?

also if a muslim has to forsake the prophet and day of judgement to bow to the Guru, why can the hindus retain their idols and superstition whilst bowing their heads?

I am so glad that you were the only one to respond to akaal das' copy and paste effort, cos you have really shown yourself to be a hypocrit! You bleat about how the muslims have treated the hindus, whilst ignoring how hindus have treated the sikhs. It is not extremism to tel any truth, but are you telling the truth? I know that you aren't.

I am understanding your hypocrisy much clearer now.

[HSD1]

When did I say this? Why put fake words in my mouth only to create straw man argument you can shoot down. Use my own words directly as a quote if you have a problem with them and don't make up fake things and put them in my mouth.

I am opposed to militants attacking Hindus witout provocation who are innocent and unarmed. I have degree of respect for Sant Ji, though I believe he was sincerely misguided. And never have I claimed he was a Hitler. Stop your lying.

I never said you said he was 'a Hitler'. I was just making the point that you want us to feel bad like the germans are made to feel bad about the holocaust. No one here advocates the killing of civilians. Apart from you sometimes when you talked about Bluestar the last time you started spouting on this forum. Shame you cant refute my point about Akaal Das either. Now you stop your lying.

[HarjasDevi]

Essentially true Islam is the same as true Sikhi and true Hinduism. Anyone who disputes this point is a fool and not worth talking with. The only difference lies in how people have distorted the pure religious teachings for their worldly ends.

I agree with this statement. I never said Islam was false, nor that holy sants do not exist in Islamic tradition as I have long admired Rumi, for example. Also, I see Sufism as a true Islam as opposed to the fanatical Wahabi sect, and is far more liberal and tolerant.

Finding the truth in all religious ideas is the real Sanatana Dharma."reincarnation, karma, dharma, bhakti, kirtan, mukti, nirgun, sargun, yoga, meditation, brahmgyan, dasam duar, deva lokas" All these words I have seen analogous ones in Islam and some other tradtions i Have been lucky enough to study. But this requires the ability to look at the essence of what the word represents and not just the outer meaning of the word.

I do not really believe this, but I keep my mind open if you start another thread on that subject I would read it and consider your points. Essence of the word, huh? Islam does not believe in reincarnation or devas or chakras, etc. But I should like to see your idea of an equivalent. Islam does not consider Raam as the Lord God, for example or accept bowing down to a Guru. This doesn't mean Islam is a fake religion for so saying. It is only to point out that these things in Sikhism are derived from Hindu, not Islamic source. To say so is not Muslim hate or Hindu fanaticism.

The Sanatana Dharma that emphasises that Hinduism is the best thing since sliced bread is the fruit of the tree planted by the british. It uses stresses values such as unity and all-inclusiveness and then regards Islam as a religion created by the Devil himself. And some fanatics of Sanatana Dharma even promote using a nuclear bomb on Pakistan! What love and what unity!

Dear, are you joking? Pakistan has spent BILLIONS on nuclear bomb development. It isn't some radical Hindu's ranting. Even United States is using CIA to secure Pakistan nuclear weapons from reaching Taliban and Al qaeda forces due to sympathies within Pakistan military.

Sanatan Dharma NOWHERE believes Islam is religion created by the devil for precise reason that Sanatana Dharma definition of devil is different from Abrahamic faiths. Abrahamic faiths are derivative of Zoroastrianism which posits good God against an evil Devil. Sanatana Dharma believes that all is God and all is the play of God and ultimately all will go back to the God. But this doesn't mean to deny that there are forces who mean to harm us. If Islam would declare that all religions are equal and have a right to exist, would it even be an issue? No! But it is Islam which declares every other religion to be of the devil and against God and therefore deserving to be disrespected and destroyed. And history is the example of that fact.

Quite the contrary, it is Islamic radicals, and I qualify as "radicals" since I do not believe that the average religious Muslim is in agreement with terrorists. The Islamic radicals really do intend to obliterate Hindu religion just as they have blown up the ancient Buddha statues in Afghanistan, or Mugals have destroyed Hindu temples to build Masjids. It is history. Hindu's only have Dharmic right to react in self-defense and to preserve Sanatana Dharma.

Edited December 26, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

The Sanatana Dharma that emphasises that Hinduism is the best thing since sliced bread is the fruit of the tree planted by the british. It uses stresses values such as unity and all-inclusiveness and then regards Islam as a religion created by the Devil himself. And some fanatics of Sanatana Dharma even promote using a nuclear bomb on Pakistan! What love and what unity!

Yes, what exactly is the truth? Sanatana Dharma believes in it's eternal truth just as every other religion believes about itself. How can British be responsible for that? The maijor difference between Sanatana Dharma and Islam, for example is that Sanatana Dharma is opposed to conversions or disrespecting the faith of others or trying to set up missionaries and jihadis to dominate other countries and obliterate their right to religion. Sadly, extremist elements within Islam do teach and practice that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOPvAfKD4lo

Edited December 26, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

The Sanatana Dharma that emphasises that Hinduism is the best thing since sliced bread is the fruit of the tree planted by the british. It uses stresses values such as unity and all-inclusiveness and then regards Islam as a religion created by the Devil himself. And some fanatics of Sanatana Dharma even promote using a nuclear bomb on Pakistan! What love and what unity!

People who intend to defend Hindu Dharma against nuclear attack by Pakistan have threatened to respond in kind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw3VqBt7aKA

Edited December 26, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

firstly, Bibi Ji, thye hindus fought many wars between themselves and it was one party that invited the muslims to india.

This is a joke right? HINDU'S invited the Mughals to come and dominate India? Or Mughals bribed some collaborators to win some key attacks as happens in every war? You really believe outrageous propaganda that Muslims were invited in? Like house guests I imagine.

secondly, a lot of the lower castes converted to islam to escape the untouchability nonsense of the hindus.

Yes, forced conversions were not occurring I suppose. Can you explain please the shaheedi of Guru Arjun Dev Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji? Thank you.

thirdly, sikhi came into existence to protect all mankind from wasting their human life. not to protect any one community.

And Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji was not given title Hindu di chaadar and this also spoken of in Shri Dasam Granth bani?

fourthly, you ask how can sikhs fight muslims and be a part of them, I wish you to clarify how the Sikhs fought against the hindu armies and can still be part of them. Who was Guru Gobind SIngh Ji protecting the Sikhs from?

Sikhs were fighting the Mughal rulers and their Hindu collaborators who fought on behalf of Mughal occupation because they were bought with power, money and jagirs. Even to this day Rajput clans will not intermarry with those families as they were considered disgraceful traitors not unlike Sikhs have called the Ram Rais and Dhirmals, Minas and Masands corrupted and antagonistic to the Guru. But was there a "Hindu" Nation with an official Hindu King which fielded a Hindu Army AGAINST the Sikhs? No. That is a distortion. Just as the British undermined the Khalsas during time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and with help of collaborators defeated Sikh kingdom, no one can call collaborators working against interests of Hindustan as representing "Hindus." Why at time of Indian independence did entire nation of India accept Sikh religion as the protector of Hindus? Because they were at war with Hindustan? How absurd.

also if a muslim has to forsake the prophet and day of judgment to bow to the Guru, why can the hindus retain their idols and superstition whilst bowing their heads?

A Muslim does not HAVE to forsake anything. But in the eyes of ISLAM and other MUSLIMS he will be considered as forsaking his Islam to bow down to any other. To a Hindu, respect shown in a Gurdwara or a temple or a mosque is to the same God and not problematic. But to Islamic religious teaching, such things are not accepted.

Now you are equating entire Hindu religion with superstition and idols. I will acknowledge ignorance exists in human beings and some Hindu's have been religious without having wisdom or enlightenment. But why deny that ALL Hindu's are represented by superstition when own Hindu bhagat's bani is bowed to as Guru. Were they not "enlightened?" As to idols. Can you explain please what was Guru Sahib doing with the Vishnu padam Saligram in Gurbani and which still is property of Bedi family as relics which I quoted on previous post? Since when did Sikhi become a kind of Islam to intolerantly demand breaking of murthis of other people's faiths? Did not Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji defend the tilak and janeo? Did he do this only that Sikhs should trash Sanatana Dharma as something evil and fake and take sides with Muslims against Hindu religion? How insane.

I am so glad that you were the only one to respond to akaal das' copy and paste effort, cos you have really shown yourself to be a hypocrit! You bleat about how the muslims have treated the hindus, whilst ignoring how hindus have treated the sikhs. It is not extremism to tel any truth, but are you telling the truth? I know that you aren't.

Again, Hindu religion has not done anything against Sikhs. Operation Bluestar, Delhi riots and anti-Sikh gallughara were not initiated by Hindu's but by secular Indian government at behest of non-Hindu Gandhi family and perpetrated by Sikh General Brar and Sikh Chief of Police KPS Gill and even inflammed by Christian with Sikh mother, Jagdish Tytler. Or have I missed something? Rather, it was due to political fighting and concerned the treasonous agitation for independent Khalistan, which is not really an issue having to do with Hindu religion at all. Congress Party had Sikh Generals, Indira Gandhi had Muslim father and Sikh daughter-in-law and Sikh bodyguards. I am still waiting for someone to explain what is "Hindu" chauvanism or "Brahmin conspiracy" in these facts.

This is quite opposed to Muslim religious scriptures which call for jihad of foreign faiths.

Edited December 26, 2009 by HarjasKaur

[singh2]

She is the same "Lady" who is on the Sikh Battle Flag captured by British during the Anglo Sikh wars and on display in UK. She is the same "Lady" who name graces Chandigargh, and Chandi di Vaar, and who in another aspect is called Sarbloh and the Bagwati who is the All-steel Sword, KAL. She is known as the Sword

Most of above is crap. This lady is nowhere on sikh flag.Show us.

She is neither called sarbloh nor sword. She is shown as a fighter against Demons.

Sword is symbol of akal purakah and akal purakh is creator of this lady.

[HarjasDevi]

Singh2 writes:

"Most of above is crap."

This is a negative pre-judgment based on assumptions. Would you go into a college class with this kind of attitude? How can you learn anything if you think you know it all? If I am wrong, is my opinion crap because you don't share it? And what if I prove that I am right in these statments? Does that pit my knowledge against you personally? No. But you start out close-minded and will probably end up hostile to what is in fact historical truth.

This lady is nowhere on sikh flag. Show us.

You do realize, regardless of how you interpret, that Murthi's were kept in Harimandir Sahib until 1906. Whether you believe as sanatani's do that this was always a Sikh practice, or as Tat Khalsas that it reflects changes due to the leadership of Mahants is interpretation. But the FACT remains that murthis have been a part of accepted Sikh practice at least since the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh.

So you are objecting to this reference to a Sikh Battle standard from the Anglo Sikh wars, kept in Museum in UK and calling as crap. Unfortunately for you, I have already posted this link on this forum. What should I gain by lying? I'm completely sincere. It is only our interpretations of Sikhi which are different. Here is the link veer ji.

Sikh Battle Standards at Lichfield Cathedral, UK

You will see the Sikh Battle Standard from Anglo-Sikh Wars with image of Chandi/Durga on it. There is also one with image of Muruga on it in His aspect as Leader of the heavenly warriors. Muruga rides a peacock and is one of Shivaji's sons. These were SIKH Battle standards. This is PART of the historical record that Sikhs were united with Hindus along with other evidence such as marginalized writings such as Janam Sakhis and Gur Bilas. I don't say you have to accept this is "right" or even "correct." I'm saying, it's part of established history. Interpret it how you want, but don't deny it. And this is the reason why there are sanatan sects within Sikhi. You can't assassinate every baba head and exterminate every sanatan Sikh sampraday to hide that fact. That's just stupid. Have intelligent knowledge of history at least without the endless rejecting denials and hatred.

How can you ever explain a Baba Sri Chand, oldest son of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Yogi Master founder of Udasi Samprada? How can you explain if this was rejected that Baba Gurditta Ji, oldest son of Guru Hargobind became the next leader of Udasis? Can you explain why Guru Ram Das wiped the dust of feet of Baba Sri Chand Ji with His own dhari if Udasis were rejected and not a sampraday within historical Sikhi? Can anyone deny sanatan character of Udasi sampraday or incredible involvement of Sikh Guru's families within it even as Udasi Mahants were established caretakers of all historical Sikh shrines from the time of Guru Ram Das Sahib Ji? Why would there even be this historical connection?

Sanatan Sikhism, even if you don't accept is the original Sikhi, is older than the intolerant Tat Khalsa interpretation which preceded it. Sanatan Sikhism has historical footprints all over Sikh religion, including in Gurbani tuuks. We believe it is original Sikhism even if you do not. Are sanatan Sikhs "evil" because they have a different interpretation which matches the historical heritage? Who are the Taliban mentalities calling as "evil" and "anti-Sikh?" They have no ownership of Sikhism. They don't even have knowledgeable understanding of the sanatan concepts in Sikh history. Such fools cannot be the self-proclaimed "representatives of Sikhi." Who dares to call even traditional sampradays as "enemies of Sikhism?" Or as "false?" Who are themselves probably the most hypocritical, irreligious persons whose mentalities reflect the pornographic corruptions they accuse. Gurbani says become the dust of the feet of sants. Gurbani says wonderful are the Vedas. Nowhere does Gurbani say assassinate as fake all the sant babas and trash as pornographic the Vedas.

Whoever is saying such, in contradiction to Gurbani teaching, those are the "fake" Sikhs and "anti-Sikhism."

She is neither called sarbloh nor sword. She is shown as a fighter against Demons.

Kali is a shakti/emanation of power of Durga. Sri Dasam Granth Bani includes a translation which comes from the Shaiva and Shakta scripture called Devi Mahatmyam. The Bagauti Kali or KAL is called the Sarbloh and the ALL-IRON Sword. The ancient historical practices of Sarbloh bibek and jhatka come from worship of this Lady. Kali Yuga is called the Iron Age, it is Her Age, and Her representation is Iron.

Kali Puja and Jhatka

Historically and currently, those Hindus who eat meat prescribe jhatka meat. This is the a common method of slaughter if animal sacrifices are made to some Hindu deities, however Vedic rituals such as Agnicayana involved the strangulation of sacrificial goats. Shaivite Hindus engage in jhatka methods as part of religious dietary laws, as influenced by the Shakti doctrines, which permit the consumption of meat (except beef, which is universally proscribed in Hinduism). The Vaishnavite denomination of Hinduism disallows the consumption of meat, and their relative demographic predominance over the Shaivites leads to the stereotype that all Hindus are vegetarian. During Durga Puja and Kali Puja among Shaivite Hindus in Punjab, Bengal and Kashmir, Jhatka meat is the required meat for practising Shaivite Hindus.

Hindu Jhatka

Sword is symbol of akal purakah and akal purakh is creator of this lady.

Akal Purakh is beyond time, undying as a definition and relates to that aspect of the Divine which is nirgun. What is outside of realm of time and manifest creation cannot have the form of a Sword. So who is the Sword? It can't be the formless nirguna. It HAS TO BE a sargun manifestation. And in this case, it is represented in the Shakti Devi, which manifests the Divine power of God's righteousness.

You can't divide the Divine into 330 devatay unless you are defining from duality perspective. This is the difference of meaning that the God Himself permeates the whole creation. Just like every living being has an atma. The jeev atma is a part of the one Paramatma and ultimately will return to Him. This is Gurbani teaching and it is traditional Vedanta teaching. Patanjali explained that just as the drop of ocean water contains everything that the ocean is, the drop is just a drop, it is not the ocean. HOWEVER, unlike in Abrahamic religious traditions where the drop/jeev is forever separate from the ocean/Paramatma, Vedantic wisdom teaches through sage Patanjali that WHEN the drop MERGES with the ocean, it ceases to be only a drop, and becomes only OCEAN.

Likewise ALL beings which are made of impermanence in created sansaar, which is all the Devatay and all born avtaray will pass away and are subject to laws of Maya and decay. But Gurbani teaching can't be misinterpreted to say the God is not ALL-PERVADING His creation. The Ek Ongkar MANIFESTS through His creation, because what is nirgun can't be manifest. FORMLESS has no perceivable manifestation. Does this mean the God is completely imperceivable? NO! The God in totality aspect is both NIRGUN AND SARGUN. Manifest and unmanifested, beyond comprehension and comprehensible. BUT, to know the FULLNESS of Divinity, to know the COMPLETENESS, "Only He Himself, knows Himself." It is not in the created aspects that the fullness of infinite totality can be known. There is no scripture which could contain or describe Him.

HOWEVER, the Guru knows. And the Guru can only know because the jeev has ceased, and there is only Paramatman, Jyoti Jyot. So the Satguru has BECOME ONE with the ONE.

Now, as to demi-gods, this represents ASPECTS, PARTS OF THE POWERS AND MANIFESTATIONS of the Divine Consciousness in this Sansaara. NOWHERE does Gurbani teaching match Abrahamic scriptures which separate the good GOD from some evil counterpart. YET the British educational system which dominated India has given on many subconscious as well as conscious levels this ABRAHAMIC philosophy of GOD on one side, and a COUNTER-GOD who is fake, evil, corrupted on the other side. That is NOT the same understanding of the devatay in Gurbani. It has much to do with malicious Christianized misinterpretations and mistranslations.

Devatay are finite and not infinite. They are aspects, not the totality. They exist within the created realm, and are therefore subject to ego and Maya as EVERYTHING IN EXISTENCE IS. It is due to no evil qualities of themselves, but part of the CREATED ORDER. To exist with sanity in this created order, every individual thing has to have SELF consciousness. And this is the root of haumai. It is not an evil, in and of itself. But it is a tool misused for selfish purpose and inviting sinful qualities of the panj bhoots to dominate one's life. Because we live in a created universe, EVERYTHING IS SUBJECT TO DECAY AND CORRUPTION.

But this is due to no evil, like a shaitan. It is due to the Divine design and intention. Maya is not an evil. It is like gravity. It keeps us rooted to the sansaara. To defy the gravity of God's Maya, we must have 1. Satguru and 2. Jap Naam. 3. Keep the daily sadhana practices which Guru prescibes. Understand the full meaning of the thrai Maha-devas of creation: Brahma-Vishnu-Mahesh. They cannot even be understood as separate. They represent three aspects of the architecture of creation. The creation itself, the preservation of it, and the destruction of it. This is not an evil. Gurbani is telling us that the Divine has permeated the created existence through these powers.

Absolutely everything born will rot, decay and die. And this is not due to evil or immorality or some Christianized concept of "failed false gods." It is the Eternal's design, His lila. The unborn eternal Oneness is manifesting Himself in the created world of duality, and so is able to manifest as both infinite AND finite, unborn and born, undying and yet able to die. NOTHING is beyond the power of Almighty. But that which is finite cannot contain the infinite. HOWEVER the infinite CAN AND DOES contain the finite. That is Divine Law. Just as the Guru's physical bodies died, so Gurbani says there are millions of Rams and millions of Krishnas on millions of worlds. But the GURU JYOT is UNDYING! Only the drama of the life is finite and comes to an end. Every Ram and every Krishna is a Guru in some age on some world and therefore is MERGED with the GURU JYOT. Otherwise, why is Ram Nam 8,000 times used to call the NAAM of the Divine in Gurbani? Because the JYOTI JYOT BEHIND THE NAME IS ETERNAL! The name represents the ONE manifest in the created realm. And so we worship the eternal even calling as the Naam of Ram. We cannot call the name of the infinite because no words could express. Yet, the NAAM is our salvation. So the Naams of the God we are given are of devatay, avtaray, the manifestations of light on the earth.

So the figure of 330 crore devatay refers only to aspects of perceivable light which reflect the Divine powers and Light of the Total One. They are not individually the TOTAL anymore than the drop is the ocean. But they are not evil. They are like angels. They are devas, meaning LIGHTS. They are reflecting something, manifesting some power or quality. People have an affinity for some aspect such as women may prefer the motherly tendency and idealize Parvati. Yogis may prefer the renunciate Shiva. Etc. In truth, everyone idealizing the Divine in some way regardless of what they may claim. And the reason is, our consciousness is limited. We see ourselves as these identities. We interpret the Divine according to our experiences in cyclic existence. So whether one calls ista deva as Parvati or a Sikh claims only nirguna is real and calls his God as AKAL, is meaningless. NONE of these names have to power to define or limit the God. They just reflect our own consciousness. And that is why Gurbani says ALL these names, including Allah, Krishna, Shiva, Ram, etc are names of who? The ONE TOTALITY.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥

Gurmukẖ nāḏaʼn gurmukẖ veḏaʼn gurmukẖ rahi▫ā samā▫ī.

The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad;

the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥

Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.

The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥

Je ha▫o jāṇā ākẖā nāhī kahṇā kathan na jā▫ī.

Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

~SGGS Ji ang 2

Chandi, KALI, the baguati, the SWORD, the KAL is not some created servant of a Divine imperious master like envisioned in Abrahamic scriptures. It is part of the All-pervading Divine Light. It is the aspect of the Divine which, traditionally in Kshatriya lineages, justified the powers of war, combat, sacredness of shastars, sacredness of the calling of a sant-sipahi to defend the eternal Dharma. Else WHY would part of the sacred Shakta scripture in Praise of DEVI, the Devi Mahatmya EXIST in Shri Dasam Granth? Because She is meaningless? Or because DEVI symoblizes part of the Divine Jyot which is to combat evil through the shakti/Divine Power! And if She is this aspect of Divinty, Devi represents the power of God and the God directly, not like some Abrahamic created messenger servant. How can the POWER of God be a mere servant of anybody? That is totally misunderstanding what Devi represents in martial aspect. The purataan Sikhs didn't have a problem with Devi. It's this modern Christianized, missionaized, anti-Hindu, pro-British sepoy generation of Sikhs who want to tarnish and trash all the purataan writings and traditional associations Sikhi had with surrounding Hindu Dharm. Sikhs are so proud to be a Singh, yet Singhs have been Rajput warriors for thousand years. All of a sudden Singh is a new thing dissociated with ancient Hindu past? Some dare try to make it Muslim? I find that unbelievable. Singh comes from Narasingh, the Man-lion avatar who was incarnation of Lord Raam who tore apart demons with his claws. Just as the Marathi Prince Shivaji used weapon of claws, wagh nakh, to kill the Muslim usurper, Afzal Khan. Khalsa SINGHS are a reform movement that did not require birth in a jati to be the noblest sons of kings (Rajaputra: the Kaurs), and Dharma protectors. But it is not new that warriors named Singh would wield Khandas and wear full beards and topknots in defense of the oppressed. That is original Rajput traditions which comes from Lord Rama Himself. That is why Guru Gobind Singh claims that the Bedis and Sodhis are descended from the Solar dynasty of the Rajput clans and Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Ram Das families descend from Lava and Kusha, the sons of Lord Raam.

You will not find anything like this in any Abrahamic scriptures. It is an ancient HINDU tradition. And Sikhism did not trample and disrespect it. Sikhism took the tradition and made it accessible to anybody, born Hindu or born Muslim, born Kshatria or born shudra. But the AIM was the same, and that was sacrifice for the sake of Dharma/righteousness. But it is really false-minded to try to eliminate the traditional symbolism and imagery in Gurbani itself, thinking Hindu religious symbolism is somehow evil or lesser. Corruptions exist in every tradition, including Sikhi. But the philosophy in it's true and noblest sense is not corrupted. Else why does Gurbani proclaim that the Vedas teach us about Satguru and Naam? The two keys of our salvation? And that is because the philosophy while entangled in kaliyug and not able to save, yet contains the teachings of what is able to save. We don't bow to Vedas, we bow to Guru. But STILL the teaching of Guru-shishya in Vedas PRESERVED in Kaliyug what is able to lead to mukti. Vedas and Puranas teach Naam japna. That is their eternal LIGHT. It is totally inappropriate for anyone calling themselves a Sikh to trash Vedas and Puranas against Gurbani teaching.

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕੋ ਇਹ ਗੁਨ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Beḏ purān paṛe ko ih gun simre har ko nāmā. ||1|| rahā▫o.

This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas,

that you may meditate on the Name of the Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 220

Dehi Shiva Bar Mohe Ihe (O God, give me these boons)

Shubh Karman Se Kabhun Na Taron (Never shall I shirk from doing good deeds)

Na Daron Ari Son Jab Jai Laron (Never shall I fear when I go to fight the enemy)

Nischey Kar Apni Jeet Karon (And with surety I shall attain victory)

~Shri Dasam Granth

Shiva is improperly ascribed to Hindi name for Shiva. But Shiv is correct for Shiva in this translation. Shiva in this writing is the feminine aspect and refers to Chandi Devi which is why it appears in Chandi Charitar Ukti Bilas, and why it is fitting in with translation of Devi Mahatmyam in Shri Dasam Granth. Purataan Sikhs never had a problem with Chandi. Why do we? They are praising the ONE GOD known by many names and many aspects. There is no such thing as 330 crore. There is only ONE. 330 crore is a delusion of the time dimension. It is an error of the duality consciousness which cannot perceive the Totality and only see's the powers of God in aspects of corruptible time and separation. There is no male and female. God is Oneness and wholeness. The Divine is our Mata AND our Pita. In the aspect of Chandi, HE THE DIVINE ONE is defending His children like a mother lioness. And that is why our Guru's had no problem with Kaurs leading battle charges like Mai Bhago. Because they had the immaculate perception of Brahm Gyan that even "she" was made in the image of the ONE.

But don't think Hindu religion trampled women. That is only the corruption of the era and of ignorant people mistranslating scriptures. Kshatriya tradition had great Rajput Ranis who also marched and fought and died in battle. And the reason? They understood the shakti of Chandi. Sikhism incorporated this great HERITAGE of the Rajputana in Kaur Singnia. The genius of the reform was, it wasn't caste based any longer. That truly is the genius of the Guru Sahibaan. But the tradition of Hindu female warriors is ancient. Else, where would even come such a symbolism as Chandi?

Lakshmi Bai Rani of Jhansi

Edited January 5, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[HSD1]

Some sikh women are bat shit crazy, but Harjas really takes the biscuit. It's already been pointed how insignificant those battle standards are. According to her logic then, the british are all a bunch of roman/greek pagans as they have used their gods/goddesses/mythical creatures in their military. *YAWN* Go away Harjas, your full of crap. You even managed to break the quotes, your posts are that terrible.

[singh2]

Harjas all you write is a trash far from truth.Our gurudwaras had come under mahants for sometime and they had introduced unsikh practices during that period to earn money.That is why akali agitation was there and Gurdwara control was wrested from these mahants.

Sikhs do not believe in any such eight armed deity and Dasam granth strongly denounces deities.Read it to know that.

[chatanga1]

harjas kaur ji, you write :"Sikhs were fighting the Mughal rulers and their Hindu collaborators who fought on behalf of Mughal occupation because they were bought with power, money and jagirs"

Did our Guru's take birth to destroy or harm Islam?

and you seem to think that all converts to islam were through force. can you clarify? please.

[HarjasDevi]

the question was asked,

"This lady is nowhere on sikh flag. Show us."

And it was answered. Whether or not you believe those Battle standards are meaningless crap is your business. But I am not full of crap to point out a historical reality.

"Some sikh women are bat shit crazy, but Harjas really takes the biscuit."

Personal attacks and flaming doesnt add to any debate.

"*YAWN* Go away Harjas, your full of crap."

This is a HINDU section. Why should I go away? Oh, I suppose you want only anti-Hindus to post abusive anti-Hindu insults on your fake "Hindu" section? What a joke.

"Sikhs do not believe in any such eight armed deity and Dasam granth strongly denounces deities.Read it to know that."

Why does Gurbani claim that the Lord has four-arms then? What is a "deity" exactly? Do you even know?

"Harjas all you write is a trash far from truth."

It may not be a version of the truth which you personally accept. But it is far from trash, and it has more historical credibility than you realize.

harjas kaur ji, you write :"Sikhs were fighting the Mughal rulers and their Hindu collaborators who fought on behalf of Mughal occupation because they were bought with power, money and jagirs"

"Did our Guru's take birth to destroy or harm Islam?

and you seem to think that all converts to islam were through force. can you clarify? please."

Our Guru's took birth to protect Hindu Dharm from forced conversions by the Mughal occupation. Islam, I personally have no problem with. But we are not talking about ISLAM. We are talking about MUGHAL's who brought a version of Islam to Hindustan which was genocidal. Gurbani talks about Islam as bringing a war, grievance and rapes to Hindustan. Gurbani talks about Islam being evidence of the Kaliyuga.

The Guru's and no dharmic person has any right to "harm or destroy" Islam. The purpose was to protect right of people to be free from military oppression and to maintain cultural and religious traditions. That radical jihadi extremist version of Islam was what was being opposed. The holy Islam of saints was never opposed.

No. Not ALL converts to Islam were converted through force. But you are dishonest if you look at a hundreds of years brutal occupation of Hindustan by Mughal invaders, shaheedi of 2 forms of Guru and think that Hindustani's were converting WITHOUT force. Else are the stories untrue that Sikh women wore the body pieces of their children garlanded around their necks to compel their conversions and punish their refusals? Is it untrue that Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji was called the blanket of protection of the Hindus who gave his life to defend the tilak and janeo?

Anyways, this entire thread is a rude insult against Hindu scriptures and Hindu women. Why anyone posts here without even addressing that first and only to argue is showing the support for rude and abusive talk to anyone pro-Hindu on this forum. You can all call me anything you like, and already have. But the truth is still the truth. You don't silence it by flaming someone with a different opinion. But I certainly have lost all respect for any of you.

[navjot2]

Harjas Kaur

first i just want to say hi! i remember how you ran circles around the singhs on Tapoban lol and got me you and about a dozen other people banned in the process

legendary!

Edited January 6, 2010 by navjot2

[navjot2]

Singh 2 is in major denial. he only sees what he wants to see and ignores anything to the contrary.

There is explicit reference to Devis multi-armed form in Dasam Granth itself which I have quoted and shown to them on occasion. but they chose to ignore it.

they can only understand Sikhi according to their own petty matt is one thing, but they have some kind of missionary zeal to enforce it on others.

[navjot2]

its true why wasnt this original post deletd? why the violent posts agianst Harjas Kaur?

so much violent response against her posting yet nothing about original post?

[shaheediyan]

"And the reason is, our consciousness is limited. We see ourselves as these identities. We interpret the Divine according to our experiences in cyclic existence."

That's interesting.

Having mixed with 'varying' groups within the Sikh circle, who focus on different things i.e. Kirtan, Yudh, Yoga, Bhakti, Academia etc... I have found (wonderfully) that they all view their 'Master of Masters' Guru Sahiban, with very different lenses.. choosing to focus on their respective aspect of Maharaj - and sharing beautiful knowledge derived from him regarding their particular perspective/interest... in a way, they worship/respect/focus on that specific aspect of Maharaj.

I may not agree with all you say Harjas Kaur, but you share some very cool thoughts.

Cheers.

[chatanga1]

Gurbani talks about Islam as bringing a war, grievance and rapes to Hindustan. Gurbani talks about Islam being evidence of the Kaliyuga.

Harjas Kaur Ji, where there any war, grievance and rapes in hindustan before islam?

can you show any gurbani which says that islam is the evidence of kaliyug?

Edited January 6, 2010 by chatanga1

[shaheediyan]

I think Harjas Kaur is refering to Babur Bani, she is wrong to say 'Islam'.

[Guest]

*Topic locked temporarily until we clear all the personal attacks and vicious attacks against other dharams*