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Are you really this insulting and this ignorant? Manu Smritis are not even Sruti for Hindus. Can you show where it says in Gurbani that Sikhs should attack and mock other religions? Please! Because I would like to understand your personal justification for writing anti-Hindu garbage like this, which I have read also from radical Muslim missionary propagandists intent on undermining Hindu relgion to convert people. Is that what you think Sikh religion is about? Trashing other people's religions to propagate what? hatred against people?

It doesnt. But then again he hasnt said anything really bad has he? Its just his opinion. Just like your garbage is your opinion. Its just a case of you getting upset that people see another face of hinduism. Stop having panic attacks. Why are hindustanis so on edge about the image of their country and religion in other people's eyes?

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Harjas devi ji, who is this lady with eight arms?

She is the same "Lady" who is on the Sikh Battle Flag captured by British during the Anglo Sikh wars and on display in UK. She is the same "Lady" who name graces Chandigargh, and Chandi di Vaar, and who in another aspect is called Sarbloh and the Bagwati who is the All-steel Sword, KAL. She is known as the Sword and also as the Shakti for which people practice Sarbloh Bibek to empower themselves physically and spiritually at all times for combat. She is the One who is worshipped in the form of Shastars which are required to be made from same Sarbloh Steel so they carry the energy current of Her Shakti. You think people are just worshipping a piece of metal shaped like a shastar and not the energy of the power of God within it who is both aspects, nirgun AND sargun, and both aspects Mata Ji AND Pita Ji? God is an undivided unity of power which is "Gobinday, Mukhanday, Udharay, Aparay, Hariung, Kariung, Nirnamay, Akamay." Who is pervading ALL forms and ALL Divine forms and BEYOND form. Do you believe there is only One? Or do you believe there is many? You see, the many are representations of the One. There is only One all-pervading. The most complete aspect is the unknowable, unborn, undying, and without form. But only He Himself knows Himself. In the ultimate aspect, God is quite incomprehensible. And for this reason created the universes and devatay and jivas and takes form as avatars and Guru to guide his jivas to mukti. He is the Creator and He is Himself the Creation.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥

Anṯar joṯ pargat pāsārā.

Deep within the self is the Light of God; It radiates throughout the expanse of His creation.

ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਿਟਿਆ ਅੰਧਿਆਰਾ ॥

Gur sākẖī miti▫ā anḏẖi▫ārā.

Through the Guru's Teachings, the darkness of spiritual ignorance is dispelled.

ਕਮਲੁ ਬਿਗਾਸਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥

Kamal bigās saḏā sukẖ pā▫i▫ā joṯī joṯ milāvaṇi▫ā. ||6||

The heart-lotus blossoms forth, and eternal peace is obtained, as one's light merges into the Light. ||6||

~SGGS Ji ang 126

"The seers absorbed in contemplation, saw within themselves the ultimate reality, the self-luminous Being, the One God, who dwells as the self-conscious power in all creatures. He is the one without a second." ~Swetasvatara Upanishad

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥

Krisnā ṯe jān▫ū har har nācẖanṯī nācẖnā. ||1||

Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥

Pahil pursābirā.

First of all, there was only the Primal Being.

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥

Athon pursāḏmarā.

From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥

Asgā as usgā.

All that is, is His.

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਬਾਗਰਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਪਿੰਧੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਗਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Har kā bāgrā nācẖai pinḏẖī mėh sāgrā. ||1|| rahā▫o.

In this Garden of the Lord, we all dance, like water in the pots of the Persian wheel. ||1||Pause||

ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਗੋਪੀ ਜੰਨਾ ॥

Nācẖanṯī gopī jannā.

Women and men both dance.

ਨਈਆ ਤੇ ਬੈਰੇ ਕੰਨਾ ॥

Na▫ī▫ā ṯe baire kanna.

There is no other than the Lord.

ਤਰਕੁ ਨ ਚਾ ॥

Ŧarak na cẖā.

Don't dispute this,

ਭ੍ਰਮੀਆ ਚਾ ॥

Bẖarmī▫ā cẖā.

and don't doubt this.

ਕੇਸਵਾ ਬਚਉਨੀ ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

Kesvā bacẖ▫unī a▫ī▫e ma▫ī▫e ek ān jī▫o. ||2||

The Lord says, "This creation and I are one and the same". ||2||

~SGGS Ji ang 693

Why do you call as Nanak Dev Ji, yet to make offense you remove Kaur from my name and replace with Devi? Are you insultingly trying to call me as Divine as if I were like Guru Ji Maharaaj? Is this your idiotic idea of trying to erase my Sikhi? Do you erase when you call as Guru Nanak "DEV" Ji?

First, answer me this: Who is the gentleman with 4 arms?

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥

Nirāhārī nirvair samā▫i▫ā.

He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥

Ḏẖār kẖel cẖaṯurbẖuj kahā▫i▫ā.

He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥

Sāval sunḏar rūp baṇāvėh beṇ sunaṯ sabẖ mohaigā. ||9||

He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥

Banmālā bibẖūkẖan kamal nain.

He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥

Sunḏar kundal mukat bain.

His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥

Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. ||10||

He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥

Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī.

The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥

Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī.

The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

The "person" with four arms in the above pauri is who is this same "lady" with eight arms. Obviously is not something physical and literal and so is not properly called as a "lady" who you can disrespect, but is symbolic of powers/shakti of the Divine. She is a representation of Divine Shakti/power and Her shastars are Shakti of the Divine Power. All forms are created out of the thrai gun and part of the impermanent sansaar. Akaal manifests in form and is beyond form in nirgun aspect, so that is nature of Akaal who is within and beyond Kal.

We believe the Shabad-Jyot of Guru Ji is eternal Akaal, Guru God. Yet the bodies which Guru Sahib took form in have all crumbled to dust. We don't worship the impermanent aspect of God. We worship the eternal bani because the Shabad is the Divine Presence and has the Divine Light in it. And so when we do namaskar to Shri Guru Granth Sahib this is because we are not idol worshiping a book, or honoring paper pages and ink, but because the spiritual reality of the shabad is there within the form of those pages. We honor the eternal formless God who also takes form as Guru and as the bani. Representations of devatay are highly symbolic but within and beyond them has always been only the incomprehensible Oneness of the Divine who is All-pervading the creation. Without form, we would have no eyes to see, no brain to comprehend anything. And so in form, the formless One makes manifest for our benefit. But all this is His play. His powers are beyond comprehension.

For generations Sikhi has worshiped and bowed down to the Shastars shown in Ma Devi's hands. That is what those 8 arms represents, Shastars. She is the form of the Divine Power representing unstoppable victory in war over enemies and who always triumphs over evil and injustice. Why else did Her name grace Chandigarh? Because She represent something trashy like you people make Her out to be? You trash yourselves and own heritage. You insult the very God with childishness.

Edited by HarjasKaur

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But then again he hasnt said anything really bad has he? Its just his opinion. Just like your garbage is your opinion. Its just a case of you getting upset that people see another face of hinduism.

His comments trash the very bani of Guru Sahib which speaks of the Vedas, Puranas and Smritis as being created by the God for leading people to morality, to the Naam and to requiring a Satguru. And from the Naam and Satguru and practice of morality, to mukti. Guru Ji was against intellectual argumentation which leads to egotism and ruins the spiritual life, but has said in Gurbani that The Vedas, Shastras and Smritis are contained in the Naam.

Anyone who defiles the reputation of the Vedas, Shastras and Smritis then, is defiling what is the very Naam of our salvation. This isn't "my garbage." It is Guru's bani. Why are you people trashing that? I told you the teachings in Gurbani are based on Sanskrit translation and comes from Vedas and Upanishads. But you don't believe and prefer to call it all as garbage. Even Guru Sahib is saying the words, Vedas comes from the God. You don't believe. Even Guru Sahib is saying Naam contains all the wisdom of Vedas, Shastras and Smritis, and you prefer to trash like radical Muslim and Christian missionaries that Vedas, Shastras and Smritis contain only pornographic garbage, evil things, ignorance. And yet what does that say to the whole world about your attitude to Naam itself?

Whatever your feelings for Sanatana Dharma/Hinduism, you can't erase it from Sikhi. If you are attacking it, you are attacking Sikhi. Maybe that is the reason Guru Sahibaan gave ther lives in defense of Sanatana Dharma.

Just maybe there are some holy truths here which you would do better to study and reflect on then waste the life speaking ill of religious scriptures you know nothing about. It's shameful the degree of stupidity reflected here, in name of a "Sikh." You say he didn't say anything really bad? He made bani of Guru to look like a fool. When Guru Sahib says "Wonderful are the Vedas" and that "Vedas came from the God," and he is says from Vedas is cheap, disgusting, corrupted, pornographic things.

That's not really bad? What is really bad then?

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If you are not commenting against my objection and in his defense, then why are you even on here derailing this thread?

Bibi Harjas Kaur Ji, i nor anybody on this forum has defended what akaal das posted. Neither have I said that you are wrong either. I think that you have a very good debating technique and have great passion for sanatan dharma, which i subscribe to, upto a point though i may add. But nevertheless, you are making a very good and worthwhile stand on defending sanatan dharma on a sikh forum, while although it has been brought to your attention many times, you fail to do the same defence of Sanatan dharma ona hindu site.

The same site that has called your Guru, the son of a hand-maid, the 5 k's useless, and more. It would be a very interesting experience for you and many members of this forum would be interested as well. I defenitely would.

Edited by chatanga1

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His comments trash the very bani of Guru Sahib which speaks of the Vedas, Puranas and Smritis as being created by the God for leading people to morality, to the Naam and to requiring a Satguru. And from the Naam and Satguru and practice of morality, to mukti. Guru Ji was against intellectual argumentation which leads to egotism and ruins the spiritual life, but has said in Gurbani that The Vedas, Shastras and Smritis are contained in the Naam.

Using the same logic we should not use toilet paper as Gurbani is also written on paper, so all paper should be treated with great respect. Which is not what our Gurus wanted. How can he be wrong for quoting hindu scriptures? It seems you're just offended that someone has spoiled your pretty little image of a religion steeped in millenias of dirt and superstition.

Anyone who defiles the reputation of the Vedas, Shastras and Smritis then, is defiling what is the very Naam of our salvation. This isn't "my garbage." It is Guru's bani. Why are you people trashing that? I told you the teachings in Gurbani are based on Sanskrit translation and comes from Vedas and Upanishads. But you don't believe and prefer to call it all as garbage. Even Guru Sahib is saying the words, Vedas comes from the God. You don't believe. Even Guru Sahib is saying Naam contains all the wisdom of Vedas, Shastras and Smritis, and you prefer to trash like radical Muslim and Christian missionaries that Vedas, Shastras and Smritis contain only pornographic garbage, evil things, ignorance. And yet what does that say to the whole world about your attitude to Naam itself?

So why is their Gurbani if the hindu scriptures were so perfect? And if the hindu scriptures are not perfect, why do they exist? Surely the best place for them would be a giant bonfire were they could do no more harm to the races of india.

Whatever your feelings for Sanatana Dharma/Hinduism, you can't erase it from Sikhi. If you are attacking it, you are attacking Sikhi. Maybe that is the reason Guru Sahibaan gave ther lives in defense of Sanatana Dharma.

Erase what? It wasnt there in the first place. You've been proved wrong last time, and you'll be proved wrong again. Our Gurus gave their lives for ideals and beliefs which were not about Sanatan Dharma as they were about National Socialism or any other mediocre ideology you will start going nutty over next.

Just maybe there are some holy truths here which you would do better to study and reflect on then waste the life speaking ill of religious scriptures you know nothing about. It's shameful the degree of stupidity reflected here, in name of a "Sikh." You say he didn't say anything really bad? He made bani of Guru to look like a fool. When Guru Sahib says "Wonderful are the Vedas" and that "Vedas came from the God," and he is says from Vedas is cheap, disgusting, corrupted, pornographic things.

Wow, here we go again with the idiotic and simple interpretations of Gurbani, which i find far more offensive than anything Akaal Das has said. If he was truly disrespecting Gurbani, no one on this site would stand for it. Unlike most hindu/sanatan sites where sikh-bashing is the norm.

That's not really bad? What is really bad then?

Seeing as you asked, I think all that hindustan-mumbo-jumbo is really bad. Like the country was made by the anglos for the anglos. They'll be back one day, and you will bend over backwards for them. Anyways, I'm off to go have some noodles and stir-fried chinese shit food at the pakistani embassy. 晚安

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Harjas Devi ji,

Why stop there? Read whole shabad. Satguru continues,

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਛਲ ਅਡੋਲੋ ॥

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਮਉਲੋ ॥

Starting the shabad with sargun roop envisioned by Vaishnavs, now move on to ਕਰਤਾ of all.

...

...

Keep reading. Things becomes more clear.

ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨਾ ॥

Lord is not limited to one form.

....

....

Continue on the same shabad,

ਏਕ ਜੀਹ ਗੁਣ ਕਵਨ ਬਖਾਨੈ ॥

ਸਹਸ ਫਨੀ ਸੇਖ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ॥

ਨਵਤਨ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਇਕੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਹਿ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੬॥

So what Vaishnavs worship, is just His Virtue.

....

....

...

ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥

ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤ ਪਏ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਦੇਹੁ ਦਰਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਲਗਾ ॥੨੦॥

This tongue chant the names given to you (looking at your virtues). This shabad is clearly for Vaishnav audience. Don't stop at tuk with mention of multiple arms.

Must read for you is next shabad which is for Muslim audience.

Bisan, Allah, Krishna, Shiv and more are His kritam names.

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ਕਵਨ ਕਵਨ ਕਵਨ ਗੁਨ ਕਹੀਐ ਅੰਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਰੈ ॥

ਲਾਖ ਲਾਖ ਲਾਖ ਕਈ ਕੋਰੈ ਕੋ ਹੈ ਐਸੋ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥੧॥

His virtues are endless. Worship Him, not virtues.

Third Master on Ang 1280

ਕਿਆ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬਪੁੜੇਂ ਇਸੁ ਮੇਘੈ ਹਥਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

Why are you standing up, standing up to look? You poor wretch, this cloud has nothing in its hands.

ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਮੇਘੁ ਪਠਾਇਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਂਹਿ ॥

The One who sent this cloud - cherish Him in your mind

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Harjas Devi ji,

Why stop there? Read whole shabad.

Because for the sake of space I try to highlight the relevant points my posts are too long as it is and people don't even read them. Why are you accusing me of deliberately trying to misconstrue the bani? Have I not posted the bani clearly? And all are welcome to investigate and read for themselves more in depth. Why attribute mischief to me? Did I do any false translation to deliberately misguide? No. I took only accepted translations direct from internet as people on Sikh forums are always doing.

Second, it is clear that within Sikhi are differing interpretations of exactly what that bani means. Damdami Taksal, AKJ, Nihang Jatha, Nirmalay, Nanaksar, Kabirpanthis, and Udasis, Namdhari's, etc will read the bani from a different perspective. I am not changing anything, and I am not interpreting. I have placed the bani and let it speak for itself. Now, what you are doing is "interpreting" the bani for Guru.

You say: "Starting the shabad with sargun roop envisioned by Vaishnavs"

Nowhere does the Gurbani say, "this is the vision of the sargun of the Vaishnavs, so my Sikhs can discount it." Tat Khalsas have put those definitions into Guru Ji's mouth and tried to force that interpretation on Sikhs. But in truth, the Gurbani is describing in many places the same thing.

You say: "Keep reading. Things becomes more clear."

But things are already clear. They are clear without interpreters. Interpreters are only needed when they want to CHANGE something in Gurbani, as you are doing, and make these entire pauris meaningless for a Sikh, because he will read them and say, "Guru Ji wasn't speaking to "me" as a Shishya, that was only intended for a Vaishnav audience. So I can ignore all those tuuks and pauris, and pretend the Gurbani is saying something else to me."

That is the real mischief. Every single word in Gurbani is intended for His Sikhs. And every single word is true and correct, whole and perfect. You don't take bits and parts of Gurbani and ignore them as irrelevant (polite way of saying false) because they are not for you, but for Hindu Vaishnavs instead.

You say:"This shabad is clearly for Vaishnav audience. Don't stop at tuk with mention of multiple arms. Must read for you is next shabad which is for Muslim audience."

No. Whole Gurbani is written for the world, is written for the Guru's Sikhs. Only malicious scholars take the sanatan teachings out of Gurbani and rearrange that it is for HIndu's only and Sikhs can ignore that. The truth of the matter is the Sikhs come from Hindu background, with a few percentage from Muslim background. At the time, Guru Ji WAS speaking to his Sikhs in a way to unite them as one community with true spirituality during a time of war. Such was the greatness of Guru Ji Maharaaj. And that is why these tuuks and pauris are in the Gurbani. But very clearly, if someone is making mischief to demonize devatay, to trash them, that person is contradicting Guru's bani. What utter mischief is it of yours to come along and say, "NO! You have wrong interpretation!" And I have not even interpreted. This message is for Sikhs for all time and from all backgrounds. NOWHERE IS GURU SAHIB DISRESPECTING RELIGION. AND THAT IS THE POINT.

Are you crazy not to recognize that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is born in house of Hindu's and from this basis explained this wonderful teaching of Sikhi? "Don't stop at tuk with mention of multiple arms." What kind of craziness? What are you afraid of? The God is formless AND with form. Entire pauri of page 1082 says nothing but the truth we bow our heads down to. Anyone can read it for themselves. Why should they listen to anyone's "interpretation?"

You posted:

"ਕਵਨ ਕਵਨ ਕਵਨ ਗੁਨ ਕਹੀਐ ਅੰਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਰੈ ॥

ਲਾਖ ਲਾਖ ਲਾਖ ਕਈ ਕੋਰੈ ਕੋ ਹੈ ਐਸੋ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥੧॥

His virtues are endless. Worship Him, not virtues.

Third Master on Ang 1280

ਕਿਆ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬਪੁੜੇਂ ਇਸੁ ਮੇਘੈ ਹਥਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

Why are you standing up, standing up to look? You poor wretch, this cloud has nothing in its hands.

ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਮੇਘੁ ਪਠਾਇਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਂਹਿ ॥

The One who sent this cloud - cherish Him in your mind

Let everybody here see who is maliciously interpreting and rearranging tuuks of Gurbani to make speak for their own anti-Hindu ideologies. Let's see what the Gurbani actually says and in what context.

ਕਵਨ ਕਵਨ ਕਵਨ ਗੁਨ ਕਹੀਐ ਅੰਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਰੈ ॥

Kavan kavan kavan gun kahī▫ai anṯ nahī kacẖẖ pārai.

Which, which, which of Your Glorious Virtues should I chant? There is no end or limitation to them.

ਲਾਖ ਲਾਖ ਲਾਖ ਕਈ ਕੋਰੈ ਕੋ ਹੈ ਐਸੋ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥੧॥

Lākẖ lākẖ lākẖ ka▫ī korai ko hai aiso bīcẖārai. ||1||

There are thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, many millions of them, but those who contemplate them are very rare. ||1||

~SGGS Ji ang 1301

Where does it say do not worship the God's virtues? Is the God separate from His virtues? How can this logically be if the God is not even separate from His creation? Moreover, you place this tuuk at the very beginning, when it is at the END of the pauri on pg. 1280. Then you placed right next together with the tuuk on page 1301 as if it were a continuation:

ਕਿਆ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬਪੁੜੇਂ ਇਸੁ ਮੇਘੈ ਹਥਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

Why are you standing up, standing up to look? You poor wretch, this cloud has nothing in its hands.

ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਮੇਘੁ ਪਠਾਇਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਂਹਿ ॥

The One who sent this cloud - cherish Him in your mind

~SGGS Ji ang 1280

You put it mischieviously together with this other pauri to contradict what I quoted on page 1082 to make it say something else, a message of rejection which is clearly not indicated in either of these pauris. The rejection is yours, and so it cannot be other than your OWN interpretation. But don't let your rejection run so deep that you begin maliciously distorting Guru's bani to say things it DOES NOT SAY.

Below is the pauri from which the tuuk was taken. In NO WAY is it saying was you have distorted and interpreted it to say. Anyone can read it. Here it is. IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT VAISHNAV'S, NOTHING ABOUT DEVATAY! STOP PRETENDING! It is talking about the fake religious people who lose God because they are using only their corrupted intellect to reach him, and they just make arguments and confusion. Guru Sahib is saying what the Vedas are teaching. YOU CANNOT OBTAIN MUKTI WITHOUT A SATGURU TO INITIATE THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD IN YOUR MIND. Tell me, where is the rejection of Sanatana Dharma?

How did you decide that the "cloud" spoken of in this pauri means the devatay? When you look at your child's photograph with affection, it is not because you adore the paper it is printed on, but because the image brings to remembrance the face of your beloved child. I did nowhere say Sikhs should do pujas to devatay. I did nowhere condemn other people for performing pujas to devatay. First of all only a Brahmgyan can read their hearts. Not one of us can judge other people's intentions during their religious worship to make judgments in the absence of facts, to attribute hateful things to innocent people. Especially on a thread accusing Hindu scriptures of teaching that Hindu women are WHORES, and you are quoting from Gurbani itself to prove something else. What exactly are you trying to prove except that Sikh community itself has become entirely polluted with hatred of Hindu's that it can't even think straight.

Guru Sahib is saying here don't be caught in duality, which is not a condition of Hindu religion, it is a condition of the entire created world. And Guru Sahib says to go beyond it and love the One God who is eternal and within our own hearts, and we do this by, what? By Naam Japna. And who taught the world the practice of Naam japna and Sankirtan? The Vaishnavs did. So why belittle the Vaishnavs when Gurbani clearly does not.

ਦੋਵੈ ਤਰਫਾ ਉਪਾਇ ਇਕੁ ਵਰਤਿਆ ॥

Ḏovai ṯarfā upā▫e ik varṯi▫ā.

The One Lord created both sides and pervades the expanse.

ਬੇਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਰਤਾਇ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਾਦੁ ਘਤਿਆ ॥

Beḏ baṇī varṯā▫e anḏar vāḏ gẖaṯi▫ā.

The words of the Vedas became pervasive, with arguments and divisions.

ਪਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਨਿਰਵਿਰਤਿ ਹਾਠਾ ਦੋਵੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਧਰਮੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਰੈਬਾਰਿਆ ॥

Parviraṯ nirviraṯ hāṯẖā ḏovai vicẖ ḏẖaram firai raibāri▫ā.

Attachment and detachment are the two sides of it; Dharma, true religion, is the guide between the two.

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਕਚੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਨਿਹਚਉ ਦਰਗਹ ਹਾਰਿਆ ॥

Manmukẖ kacẖe kūṛi▫ār ṯinĥī nihcẖa▫o ḏargėh hāri▫ā.

The self-willed manmukhs are worthless and false. Without a doubt, they lose in the Court of the Lord.

ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਸੂਰ ਹੈ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਮਾਰਿਆ ॥

Gurmaṯī sabaḏ sūr hai kām kroḏẖ jinĥī māri▫ā.

Those who follow the Guru's Teachings are the true spiritual warriors; they have conquered sexual desire and anger.

ਸਚੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਮਹਲਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥

Sacẖai anḏar mahal sabaḏ savāri▫ā.

They enter into the True Mansion of the Lord's Presence, embellished and exalted by the Word of the Shabad.

ਸੇ ਭਗਤ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਦੇ ਸਚੈ ਨਾਇ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ॥

Se bẖagaṯ ṯuḏẖ bẖāvḏe sacẖai nā▫e pi▫āri▫ā.

Those devotees are pleasing to Your Will, O Lord; they dearly love the True Name.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਹਉ ਵਾਰਿਆ ॥੫॥

Saṯgur sevan āpṇā ṯinĥā vitahu ha▫o vāri▫ā. ||5||

I am a sacrifice to those who serve their True Guru. ||5||

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥

Salok mėhlā 3.

Shalok, Third Mehl:

ਊਂਨਵਿ ਊਂਨਵਿ ਆਇਆ ਵਰਸੈ ਲਾਇ ਝੜੀ ॥

Ūʼnnav ūʼnnav ā▫i▫ā varsai lā▫e jẖaṛī.

Hanging low, low and thick in the sky, the clouds come, and water rains down in torrents.

ਨਾਨਕ ਭਾਣੈ ਚਲੈ ਕੰਤ ਕੈ ਸੁ ਮਾਣੇ ਸਦਾ ਰਲੀ ॥੧॥

Nānak bẖāṇai cẖalai kanṯ kai so māṇe saḏā ralī. ||1||

O Nanak, she walks in harmony with the Will of her Husband Lord; she enjoys peace and pleasure forever. ||1||

ਮਃ ੩ ॥

Mėhlā 3.

Third Mehl:

ਕਿਆ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਬਪੁੜੇਂ ਇਸੁ ਮੇਘੈ ਹਥਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

Ki▫ā uṯẖ uṯẖ ḏekẖhu bapuṛeʼn is megẖai hath kicẖẖ nāhi.

Why are you standing up, standing up to look? You poor wretch, this cloud has nothing in its hands.

ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਮੇਘੁ ਪਠਾਇਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਂਹਿ ॥

Jin ehu megẖ paṯẖā▫i▫ā ṯis rākẖo man māʼnhi.

The One who sent this cloud - cherish Him in your mind.

ਤਿਸ ਨੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਸੀ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥

Ŧis no man vasā▫isī jā ka▫o naḏar kare▫i.

He alone enshrines the Lord in his mind, upon whom the Lord bestows His Glance of Grace.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਬਾਹਰੀ ਸਭ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਹ ਕਰੇਇ ॥੨॥

Nānak naḏrī bāhrī sabẖ karaṇ palāh kare▫i. ||2||

O Nanak, all those who lack this Grace, cry and weep and wail. ||2||

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

Pa▫oṛī.

Pauree:

ਸੋ ਹਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਰੇਵੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਰਤ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਵਾਰ ॥

So har saḏā sarevī▫ai jis karaṯ na lāgai vār.

Serve the Lord forever; He acts in no time at all.

ਆਡਾਣੇ ਆਕਾਸ ਕਰਿ ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਢਾਹਿ ਉਸਾਰਣਹਾਰ ॥

Ādāṇe ākās kar kẖin mėh dẖāhi usāraṇhār.

He stretched the sky across the heavens; in an instant, He creates and destroys.

ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥

Āpe jagaṯ upā▫e kai kuḏraṯ kare vīcẖār.

He Himself created the world; He contemplates His Creative Omnipotence.

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਅਗੈ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੀਐ ਬਹੁਤੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਮਾਰ ॥

Manmukẖ agai lekẖā mangī▫ai bahuṯī hovai mār.

The self-willed manmukh will be called to account hereafter; he will be severely punished.

~SGGS Ji ang 1280

Yes, a very beautiful and true pauri. Sadly it is saying nowhere to trash the devatay as worthless or false. It is not saying anywhere what you have attributed to it. Why do you do that, cut and mix together and add interpretations which do not exist?

Harjas Devi ji,

Why stop there? Read whole shabad. Satguru continues,

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਛਲ ਅਡੋਲੋ ॥

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਮਉਲੋ ॥

Starting the shabad with sargun roop envisioned by Vaishnavs, now move on to ਕਰਤਾ of all.

Why are you maliciously calling me as Harjas Devi? You do realize that before Guru Gobind Singh gave the Panth Khande Ki Pahul and the surnames of Singh and Kaur that Sikh bibis were in fact called as Devi surname? Why are you disrespecting that heritage? Why do you hate it so much? What is meaning of Devi that anyone should despise? It means the same thing as shakti. Now I object on these grounds. First, because you remove Kaur from my surname and that is an insult. Second because you hate devatay and by so attributing to me, you do so to make me an object of scorn. And third, because I am not worthy as a shishya myself to have as surname attributed to beloved Guru Dev. So I ask you to please not do this. The entire Rajput heritage has called as Kaurs. If you want to erase Hindu influence, you should have to erase the very name of Kaur from yourselves. If you would not do that, then don't erase it from me.

You write:

Why stop there? Read whole shabad. Satguru continues,

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਛਲ ਅਡੋਲੋ ॥

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਮਉਲੋ ॥

How Ji, are you accusing that I am not reading the whole shabad continuing on page 1083, and 1280 and 1301 when the pauri I have quoted from is on pg 1082? But okay, let's look at it since entire Gurbani is an undivided wholeness and can never contradict itself:

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਛਲ ਅਡੋਲੋ ॥

Nirankār acẖẖal adolo.

The Formless Lord is undeceivable and unchanging.

ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਮਉਲੋ ॥

Joṯ sarūpī sabẖ jag ma▫ulo.

He is the Embodiment of Light; through Him, the whole world blossoms forth.

ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਆਪਹੁ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪਾਵੈਗਾ ॥੧੪॥

So milai jis āp milā▫e āphu ko▫e na pāvaigā. ||14||

He alone unites with Him, whom He unites with Himself. No one can attain the Lord by himself. ||14||

ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨਾ ॥

Āpe gopī āpe kānā.

He Himself is the milk-maid, and He Himself is Krishna.

ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਵੈ ਬਾਨਾ ॥

Āpe ga▫ū cẖarāvai bānā.

He Himself grazes the cows in the forest.

ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਵਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਖਪਾਵਹਿ ਤੁਧੁ ਲੇਪੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧੫॥

Āp upāvėh āp kẖapāvėh ṯuḏẖ lep nahī ik ṯil rangā. ||15||

You Yourself create, and You Yourself destroy. Not even a particle of filth attaches to You. ||15||

ਏਕ ਜੀਹ ਗੁਣ ਕਵਨ ਬਖਾਨੈ ॥

Ėk jīh guṇ kavan bakẖānai.

Which of Your Glorious Virtues can I chant with my one tongue?

ਸਹਸ ਫਨੀ ਸੇਖ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ॥

Sahas fanī sekẖ anṯ na jānai.

Even the thousand-headed serpent does not know Your limit.

~SGGS Ji ang 1083

It is not contradicting anything on page 1082. The issue you have is with nirguna and sarguna. But even on page 1082 when speaking of Avataray Guru Ji is saying the same thing. Or are you saying that the God who is described as Akaal Murat on page 1082 is NOT the same as the Nirankar described on page 1083? What mischief.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥

Bāsuḏev niranjan ḏāṯe baran na sāka▫o guṇ angā. ||5||

O Lord, Immaculate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

Mukanḏ manohar lakẖmī nārā▫iṇ.

Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥

Ḏaropaṯī lajā nivār uḏẖāraṇ.

Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥

Kamlākanṯ karahi kanṯūhal anaḏ binoḏī nihsangā. ||6||

Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

Amogẖ ḏarsan ājūnī sambẖa▫o.

The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥

Akāl mūraṯ jis kaḏe nāhī kẖa▫o.

His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਤੁਝ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਲਗਾ ॥੭॥

Abẖināsī abigaṯ agocẖar sabẖ kicẖẖ ṯujẖ hī hai lagā. ||7||

O imperishable, eternal, unfathomable Lord, everything is attached to You. ||7||

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥

Sarīrang baikunṯẖ ke vāsī.

The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥

Macẖẖ kacẖẖ kūram āgi▫ā a▫uṯrāsī.

By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

You write:

Keep reading. Things becomes more clear.

ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨਾ ॥

Lord is not limited to one form.

Things are abundantly clear. You have answered everything with this statement. Thank you. The "Lady" with eight-arms is none other than the potency/shakti of the One Lord who is so vast and infinite that finite human beings cannot fathom His limits. So you are forced to acknowledge that Har Krishna is a form of the Akal Murat as per Gurbani. And if that is the case what business have Sikhs DISRESPECTING DEVATAY AND AVATARAY? IT IS SHAMEFUL!

You write:

Continue on the same shabad,

ਏਕ ਜੀਹ ਗੁਣ ਕਵਨ ਬਖਾਨੈ ॥

ਸਹਸ ਫਨੀ ਸੇਖ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ॥

ਨਵਤਨ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਇਕੁ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਹਿ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੬॥

So what Vaishnavs worship, is just His Virtue.

It says nowhere "this is ONLY what Vaishnavs worship." Why do you insert that in there? It is in Gurbani. It is what Sikhs have ALWAYS bowed their heads and kesas down to. It is part of the eternal Truth. So it is also WHAT SIKHS WORSHIP!

The entire pauri does not say, "Oh, the Vaishnav's are only worshipping His virtues. They are foolish. We Sikh's worship the One God because we are different from them." NO! It does not say that. It says THESE ARE ASPECTS, AVATARS OF THE ONE GOD. IT SAYS THESE ARE THE PARABRAHM, THE AKAAL MURAT, AJOONI, THE CREATOR, NIRANJANA, MUKUNDA, NARAYANA who is AGOCHAR, unfathomable, beyond human ability to grasp. So you, please, stop pretending to know, when clearly you have to deny and distort bani to prove your points. And I might add, all these descriptions of the One God are SANSKRIT. Because they are translations into Punjabi from Sanskrit and Braj Bhasha original teachings of VAISHNAV SAINTS. AND WHY IS THIS? BECAUSE GURU NANAK DEV JI WAS BORN IN THE HOUSE OF A HINDU. AND HE KNEW THESE TRUTHS. LEAST OF ALL HE DID NOT DESPISE THEM.

Don't make the Guru out as despising the teachings from His own Gurbani. STOP HATING HINDU'S AND DEFENDING THIS THREAD WHICH IS TRASHING HINDU SCRIPTURES TO MAKE HINDU WOMEN OUT TO BE WHORES~!

HOW DARE YOU USE GURBANI LIKE THIS. START ANOTHER THREAD IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS IT BECAUSE ALL YOU ARE DOING IS DEFENDING HINDU WOMEN AS WHORES, YOU IDIOT@!

Must read for you is next shabad which is for Muslim audience.

Bisan, Allah, Krishna, Shiv and more are His kritam names.

FYI, The Vedas never taught differently. Of course these are His manifested/kritam names. What name shall we call the Nameless and Formless? Over time in Kaliyug people forgot the original meaning and lost the worship of the One God to worship only the ritual. It has always been necessary to have a Satguru to bring the experince of God and best way to achieve mukti in Kaliyug when the Dharma bull has lost it's legs of religion is by practice of Naama Jap. Sorry to inform you, all of this is HINDU teaching from HINDU scriptures. Guru Ji is completely correct. I have no problems accepting Gurbani as DIVINE TRUTH Unquestionably and I bow my head and hairs to it a million times with deepest reverence. And it is equally clear that Guru Ji does not hate and reject Hindu's or even Hindu religious teachings direct from Hindu scriptures. Guru Ji is WARNING ALL OF US about fake worship, duality, and slavery to the panj bhutas. Guru Ji says Shiva is Naam of God, Krishna is Naam of God, Allah is Naam of God, and all these aspects are what? Gurbani says, the ONE GOD.

Nowhere it says these are just His virtue, don't worship His virtue. It says ALL IS THE GOD and the God is beyond our understanding and even beyond our worship, but it does not say "Don't worship!" It says "Don't falsely worship." Don't falsely worship because of ignorance and love of duality and being a manmukh, which means following yourself as Guru. To obtain the highest, darshan of the God, you must have, what? A SATGURU! and what? That you must regularly do bhakti yoga practice of NAAM JAPO AND SANKIRTAN.

And what is the Naam you Jap? It too comes from Vaishnavs, so how can they be worshipping falsely when the Vaishnav sant bhagats are teaching in the Guru's own bani and THOSE teachings in Gurbani have BECOME the GURU and have Gurgaddi?

WAHEGURU

V = Vishnu, Vasudeyv

H = Hari Krishan

G = Gobind

R = Raam

Everyday a Sikh chants the Holy Names of God, this is what he is chanting praise of, the sargun manifestations of the Akaal in form of His Divine Avtaray. And WHY the sargun Naams? BECAUSE THE NIRGUN IS BEYOND FORM AND BEYOND WORDS. HOW CAN YOU PRAISE THE UNFATHOMABLE ASPECT OF THE DIVINE? MOREOVER, how embarrasing for Sikhs to claim that it is okay to eat cow meat, when the very NAAM of God which is their own Gurmantra, WAHEGURU contains definition, title of the God as GOVINDA, the cow protector and friend. There is a reason why Jhatka is traditionally performed on goats and halal of cows meat is forbidden kureit.

Moreover it is from the Vaishnavs that the teaching do not worship the demi-gods/aspects but only the One God Niranjana Hari Krishna Maha Vishnu the all-pervading comes from. Different sects empahsized Raam over Krishna, or Hari as Supreme. Guru Nanak has Raam Naam over 8,000 times in Gurbani and emphasizes the formless as the absolute. The sectarian influence is obvious, these were the Raam-Naami Vaishnav bhagats, not the Gaudiyas. It is sectarian differences only. Not a whole new religion. It has preserved exact same teachings and terminology. So don't distort what is actually Hindu religion(s) plural as being against Gurbani. Sanatana Dharma does not say every sect within Hinduism is the most correct. It simply teaches tolerance of all. Guru Ji ALSO taught this same tolerance and love of people to find the God whatever way they can.

The teachings in Gurbani clearly reflect Vaishnav Sant Mat influence as coming directly from the Braj Bhasha writings of the Vaishnav sants. Or do you deny it? It is so obvious. Guruji does not contradict Vaishnavism, at all, but in fact teaches a form of it. This is completely in harmony with teachings of Mahaprabhu Chaitanya, for example. It is totally in harmony with Bhagavad-Gita (paraphrase) "Do not worship the lower aspects demi-gods of the created gunas and haumai, but even those who worship wrongly still come to ME." So Guru Ji is saying "be a good Hindu. Be a good Muslim. Be a good and sincere person." Nowhere Guru says to anyone, "Give up your religion because it is evil and false. Your scriptures are polluted." Because ultimately the One God is all in all. The highest worship is the worship of Ekongkar, in Vedas called as Ek Akshara Brahman, the One Divine Sound of the Maha Vakia of the formless. The Primal Nada Pranava OM which vibrates to give all mantras and shabad and NAAM the Presence and Power of the One God (All-Pervading aspect). It is the same He, One without a second, spoken of in Vedas who takes Vishwa swaroop (manifested form, birth in sansaara) any time the Dharma is in danger. EK AK SHARA. EK OM KARA.

EMBARRASSING IGNORANCE. KEEP REJECTING VAISHNAV HERITAGE AND YOU REJECT YOUR OWN TRUTHS.

Edited by HarjasKaur

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Moreover it is from the Vaishnavs that the teaching do not worship the demi-gods/aspects but only the One God Niranjana Hari Krishna Maha Vishnu the all-pervading comes from. So don't distort what is actually Hindu religion(s) plural as being against Gurbani. The teachings in Gurbani clearly reflect Vaishnav Sant Mat influence as coming directly from the Braj Bhasha writings of the Vaishnav sants. Or do you deny it? It is so obvious. Guruji does not contradict Vaishnavism, at all, but in fact teaches a form of it. This is completely in harmony with teachings of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, of Mahaprabhu Chaitanya, for example. It is totally in harmony with Bhagavad-Gita. Do not worship the lower aspects demi-gods of the created gunas and haumai, but even those who worship wrongly still come to ME.

Bibi Harjas Kaur Ji

If what you have written is true, why did Guru Nanak Ji need to take birth? People were already going to sachkhand if what you are saying is true.

All the pre-sikh panths did eventually lead to God, but gurmat is Gaddi-rah to God. Gurmat rejects many of the hindu-muslim practices as futile and worthless, and non-pleasing to God.

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Bibi Harjas Kaur Ji

If what you have written is true, why did Guru Nanak Ji need to take birth? People were already going to sachkhand if what you are saying is true.

All the pre-sikh panths did eventually lead to God, but gurmat is Gaddi-rah to God. Gurmat rejects many of the hindu-muslim practices as futile and worthless, and non-pleasing to God.

Gurbani says the God came as the das avataras, and that in Kali Yuga the God came as Guru Nanak and will come again as Kalki. What I have written is true. Life and time move in cycles. Guru Nanak brought message because of the Kaliyug, because of the iinvasion of Babar and Mughals and the oppression and threat of obliterating the Dharma.

All the pre-Sikh Panths lead to the God, the very bhagats bani in Gurbani is attesting this. To a Sikh, a disciple of Guru Nanak Jyot, He is the very God. To a disciple of any Guru, that person's Guru is God. This Gurbani is written from that perspective. To a Sikh Gurbani is the Vedas. But so saying does not imply the Vedas are trash as is alleged on this thread. And that is my point. I did not say all Sikhs must now run and do pujas to Durga Ma or study the Vedas. I am saying Sikhs have no right, least of all by Gurbani teaching to trash and denounce Hindu spiritual teachings.

NOBODY can achieve mukti without a Satguru. If Satguru Nanak says chant the Name of God, then that is the practice. But how ARROGANT to assume that is a practice to be imposed on the whole world's religions as the final and only truth, as if you have become radical jihadi Muslims and incarnations of Aurangzeb. It is ignorant to think only Sikhs will have mukti. That is not what Gurbani says. There have ALWAYS been jivas which achieve mukti in every age. And there always will be. That is the design of creation. Or are you imagining SIkhi as a new form of Islam which makes everyone else a sinner unless they are saved by conversion to Sikh?

In those other ages, the Dharma Bull had all it's legs, only in this age it has almost lost all it's legs, so direct from Bhagavad-Gita, Naam Jap is the superior method to obtain Mukti, this is different than in previous ages. Guru Nanak Dev Ji seems to agree with Bhagavad-Gita teaching on this, that by Naam Jap and Sankirtan of the Lord's praise the mind will be washed of samskaras and karmas and achieve mukti by Guru's grace.

Gurmat rejects many of the hindu-muslim practices as futile and worthless, and non-pleasing to God.

First of all, nowhere in Gurbani is there any teaching of Islamic practice or Islamic belief. In fact Gurbani says that in Kaliyug the Mughals appeared and brought oppression to Hindu's. Second, Gurbani is speaking from the perspective of a Satguru to correct the moral and spiritual deficiencies of people's religious practice. It is not written as a condemnation of Hindu religion(s) which is a plural.

Gurbani is correcting the extremism of some sects of yoga asceticism. Those practices are not taught by every Hindu sect. Many also condemn the same things Guruji was condemning. Gurbani is correcting the fake, ritualistic hypocritical practices and promoting BHAKTI Path as superior. This is also Vaishnav teaching. Vaishnavism was a reform and also condemned the caste system, which is why Bhagat bani is appearing in Gurbani to teach that. It is teaching from before the time of Sikhs, and thus evidence of the Vaishnav reform of the caste system. Guru Ji did not reject the janeo as a brahminvaad practice, because Guruji was not a brahmin, but a Ksatriya. The janeo belonged to everyone except Shudras. The Vaishnav reform made someone born a shudra as being the equal of a Brahmin if he was devoted to the God, and the born Brahmin as a Shudra is he was fake and a hypocrite. So this is also Hindu teaching as it comes from Vaishnav caste reform and is based on original teachings of Vedas. It was Vaishnavism hundreds of years before the birth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji which initiated the reforms of langar, of admitting women, shudras, and the poor as equal in spirituality. Since that time Vaishnavism has broken into many sects, some as brahministic as the reforms taught against, and some as clear as Gurbani about promoting spiritual equality. But the point is, it was Vaishnavism originally which set out to reform the abuses of Brahminism, and Sikhi took that mantle from the Vaishnav sants teaching that yes, these were spiritual truths from the One God and original teaching from the Vedas.

Guru Ji is not saying Hindu religion and philosophical teachings about Satguru's, and avatars, and NAAM is fake because people have lost guidance. By giving the proper understanding Guruji is PRESERVING Sanatana Dharma from the insult of fake practices, ignorant people, false understanding, bad teachers and forced conversions by Mughals. That is His role as a Guru! To point out the wrong things and teach the right things. And Guruji did this, but incorporating the bhagat bani of the Hindu Vaishnav Sants.

And Guruji is not the first. Guruji won't be the last manifestation of this Divine correction to balance the righteousness in the world against the darkness which overtakes it. Naam Jap is a Hindu practice. It is worthless? This thread began by accusing Hindu scriptures as evil and worthless. And my point? Guruji says they are from God. It is our understanding which is worthless. Not every Hindu represents or believes in every practice. Hindu religion(s) plural are not all the same. the Sanatana Dharma is about tolerance of everything and so there is no force to believe or practice differently. But if somebody's Guru teaches them a practice, that person MUST follow that practice.

Have I said anything here which would lead a Sikh AWAY from the practices of Guru? No! Hindu religion(s) have many, many practices. Are all of them right? Some are right, some are misguided, some are right for some but not others. Why make this big judgment of rejection for Hindu's? Because that is what this thread is about, accusing that Hindu scriptures are calling Hindu women as whores in order to trash Hindu religion(s). Plural, since many sects and beliefs and practices are under this umbrella.

Guruji as Satguru was making the corrections, and even using Vaishnav Bhagat bani to do so, so it is INSANE to interpret these instructions as AGAINST or REJECTING Hindu Dharm. Only a malicious person equates some sadhu extremism not even accepted by mainstream Shaivas as representative of ALL Hinduism in order to condemn it by mocking as the most extreme examples. Anyone could easily take the most extreme examples of misguided Sikhs and make Sikhi look monstrous. But is that the eternal Truth? Why promote asat in order to exaggerate communal hatreds? That was the reason I posted on this thread. Now a dozen people have jumped in to condemn me.

Edited by HarjasKaur

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

and will come again as Kalki.

Bhen ji,

Where does Guru Sahib say the above? As far as I can understand, in Sri Dasam Granth, Guru Ji makes it very clear that Kalki is not an avtar at the same level as Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He will suffer from hankaar and will have to be killed by Mehdi Avtar.

Guru Ji is on a whole other level - sarab kala samrath.

First of all, nowhere in Gurbani is there any teaching of Islamic practice or Islamic belief.

It is really funny that you say this. Not long ago, there was a Muslim who wrote pages and pages to make the point that we Sikhs are nothing but Shia Muslims. It is like you complete the circle - yin and yang! :D

By the way, nobody is out to 'get you'. You will have noticed that the original poster's post was initially ignored.

Edited by Matheen

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First of all, nowhere in Gurbani is there any teaching of Islamic practice or Islamic belief. In fact Gurbani says that in Kaliyug the Mughals appeared and brought oppression to Hindu's. Second, Gurbani is speaking from the perspective of a Satguru to correct the moral and spiritual deficiencies of people's religious practice. It is not written as a condemnation of Hindu religion(s) which is a plural.

Oh please Bibi Ji, the oppression of Kalyug was down to the muslims?

Guru Nanak doesnt even talk about the falseness of the Hindus at all?

that is crazy . but im glad you've posted that, it makes more sense of what kind of person you are.

Not at all too different to the person who wrote the original post.

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I don't have time for mega essays.

You said,

"Don't make the Guru out as despising the teachings from His own Gurbani. STOP HATING HINDU'S AND DEFENDING THIS THREAD WHICH IS TRASHING HINDU SCRIPTURES TO MAKE HINDU WOMEN OUT TO BE WHORES~!

HOW DARE YOU USE GURBANI LIKE THIS. START ANOTHER THREAD IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS IT BECAUSE ALL YOU ARE DOING IS DEFENDING HINDU WOMEN AS WHORES, YOU IDIOT@!"

I just posted the rest of the shabad, and I didn't even post translation. You are yelling and using profanity. I never said anything about Hindus women. In the same shabad are mentioned fish and tortoise. You can worship whatever you want.

Of course there has to be influence of the surroundings. Shabad here is not condemning them, but going for bigger truth (bigger that kritam names like Hari, Vishnu, Krishna etc). Now for rest of the sangat, I will post shabad, which comes right after this shabad (please note if you see any vaishnav influence)

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਅਲਹ ਅਗਮ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਬੰਦੇ ॥ ਛੋਡਿ ਖਿਆਲ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਕੇ ਧੰਧੇ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਪੈ ਖਾਕ ਫਕੀਰ ਮੁਸਾਫਰੁ ਇਹੁ ਦਰਵੇਸੁ ਕਬੂਲੁ ਦਰਾ ॥੧॥ਸਚੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਯਕੀਨ ਮੁਸਲਾ ॥ਮਨਸਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਹੁ ਆਸਾ ॥ਦੇਹ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਮਉਲਾਣਾ ਕਲਮ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਪਾਕੁ ਖਰਾ ॥੨॥ਸਰਾ ਸਰੀਅਤਿ ਲੇ ਕੰਮਾਵਹੁ ॥ਤਰੀਕਤਿ ਤਰਕ ਖੋਜਿ ਟੋਲਾਵਹੁ ॥ਮਾਰਫਤਿ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰਹੁ ਅਬਦਾਲਾ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਹਕੀਕਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਨ ਮਰਾ ॥੩॥ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਦਿਲ ਮਾਹਿ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥ਦਸ ਅਉਰਾਤ ਰਖਹੁ ਬਦ ਰਾਹੀ ॥ਪੰਚ ਮਰਦ ਸਿਦਕਿ ਲੇ ਬਾਧਹੁ ਖੈਰਿ ਸਬੂਰੀ ਕਬੂਲ ਪਰਾ ॥੪॥ਮਕਾ ਮਿਹਰ ਰੋਜਾ ਪੈ ਖਾਕਾ ॥ਭਿਸਤੁ ਪੀਰ ਲਫਜ ਕਮਾਇ ਅੰਦਾਜਾ ॥ਹੂਰ ਨੂਰ ਮੁਸਕੁ ਖੁਦਾਇਆ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਅਲਹ ਆਲਾ ਹੁਜਰਾ ॥੫॥ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਕਾਜੀ ॥ਜੋ ਦਿਲੁ ਸੋਧੈ ਸੋਈ ਹਾਜੀ ॥ਸੋ ਮੁਲਾ ਮਲਊਨ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ਸੋ ਦਰਵੇਸੁ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਧਰਾ ॥੬॥ਸਭੇ ਵਖਤ ਸਭੇ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਲਾ ॥ਖਾਲਕੁ ਯਾਦਿ ਦਿਲੈ ਮਹਿ ਮਉਲਾ ॥ਤਸਬੀ ਯਾਦਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਸ ਮਰਦਨੁ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਬੰਧਾਨਿ ਬਰਾ ॥੭॥ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਸਭ ਫਿਲਹਾਲਾ ॥ਖਿਲਖਾਨਾ ਬਿਰਾਦਰ ਹਮੂ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥ਮੀਰ ਮਲਕ ਉਮਰੇ ਫਾਨਾਇਆ ਏਕ ਮੁਕਾਮ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਦਰਾ ॥੮॥ਅਵਲਿ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਦੂਜੀ ਸਾਬੂਰੀ ॥ਤੀਜੈ ਹਲੇਮੀ ਚਉਥੈ ਖੈਰੀ ॥ਪੰਜਵੈ ਪੰਜੇ ਇਕਤੁ ਮੁਕਾਮੈ ਏਹਿ ਪੰਜਿ ਵਖਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਅਪਰਪਰਾ ॥੯॥ਸਗਲੀ ਜਾਨਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਮਉਦੀਫਾ ॥ਬਦ ਅਮਲ ਛੋਡਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਥਿ ਕੂਜਾ ॥ਖੁਦਾਇ ਏਕੁ ਬੁਝਿ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਬਾਂਗਾਂ ਬੁਰਗੂ ਬਰਖੁਰਦਾਰ ਖਰਾ ॥੧੦॥ਹਕੁ ਹਲਾਲੁ ਬਖੋਰਹੁ ਖਾਣਾ ॥ਦਿਲ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਧੋਵਹੁ ਮੈਲਾਣਾ ॥ਪੀਰੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਭਿਸਤੀ ਸੋਈ ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਨ ਦੋਜ ਠਰਾ ॥੧੧॥ਕਾਇਆ ਕਿਰਦਾਰ ਅਉਰਤ ਯਕੀਨਾ ॥ਰੰਗ ਤਮਾਸੇ ਮਾਣਿ ਹਕੀਨਾ ॥ਨਾਪਾਕ ਪਾਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹਦੀਸਾ ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਦਸਤਾਰ ਸਿਰਾ ॥੧੨॥ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮੋਮ ਦਿਲਿ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਮਲੁ ਦਿਲ ਤੇ ਧੋਵੈ ॥ਦੁਨੀਆ ਰੰਗ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨੇੜੈ ਜਿਉ ਕੁਸਮ ਪਾਟੁ ਘਿਉ ਪਾਕੁ ਹਰਾ ॥੧੩॥ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਿਹਰ ਮਿਹਰ ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨਾ ॥ਸੋਈ ਮਰਦੁ ਮਰਦੁ ਮਰਦਾਨਾ ॥ਸੋਈ ਸੇਖੁ ਮਸਾਇਕੁ ਹਾਜੀ ਸੋ ਬੰਦਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਨਜਰਿ ਨਰਾ ॥੧੪॥ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰਣ ਕਰੀਮਾ ॥ਸਿਫਤਿ ਮੁਹਬਤਿ ਅਥਾਹ ਰਹੀਮਾ ॥ਹਕੁ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸਚੁ ਖੁਦਾਇਆ ਬੁਝਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੰਦਿ ਖਲਾਸ ਤਰਾ ॥੧੫॥੩॥੧੨॥

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Where does Guru Sahib say the above? As far as I can understand, in Sri Dasam Granth, Guru Ji makes it very clear that Kalki is not an avtar at the same level as Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He will suffer from hankaar and will have to be killed by Mehdi Avtar.

Guru Ji is on a whole other level - sarab kala samrath.

ਬੇਵਜੀਰ ਬਡੇ ਧੀਰ ਧਰਮ ਅੰਗ ਅਲਖ ਅਗਮ ਖੇਲੁ ਕੀਆ ਆਪਣੈ ਉਛਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

Bevjīr bade ḏẖīr ḏẖaram ang alakẖ agam kẖel kī▫ā āpṇai ucẖẖāhi jī▫o.

You have no advisors, You are so very patient; You are the Upholder of the Dharma, unseen and unfathomable. You have staged the play of the Universe with joy and delight.

ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਕਥੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ਸੁਤਹ ਸਿਧ ਰੂਪੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਸਾਹਨ ਕੈ ਸਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

Akath kathā kathī na jā▫e ṯīn lok rahi▫ā samā▫e suṯah siḏẖ rūp ḏẖari▫o sāhan kai sāhi jī▫o.

No one can speak Your Unspoken Speech. You are pervading the three worlds. You assume the form of spiritual perfection, O King of kings.

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥੮॥

Saṯ sācẖ sarī nivās āḏ purakẖ saḏā ṯuhī vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhigurū vāhi jī▫o. ||3||8||

You are forever True, the Home of Excellence, the Primal Supreme Being. Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Guru, Waahay Jee-o. ||3||8||

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥

Saṯgurū saṯgurū saṯgur gubinḏ jī▫o.

The True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself.

ਬਲਿਹਿ ਛਲਨ ਸਬਲ ਮਲਨ ਭਗ੍ਤਿ ਫਲਨ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੁਅਰ ਨਿਹਕਲੰਕ ਬਜੀ ਡੰਕ ਚੜ੍ਹੂ ਦਲ ਰਵਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥

Balihi cẖẖalan sabal malan bẖagaṯ falan kānĥ ku▫ar nihklank bajī dank cẖaṛhū ḏal ravinḏ jī▫o.

Enticer of Baliraja, who smothers the mighty, and fulfills the devotees; the Prince Krishna, and Kalki; the thunder of His army and the beat of His drum echoes across the Universe.

ਰਾਮ ਰਵਣ ਦੁਰਤ ਦਵਣ ਸਕਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੁਸਲ ਕਰਣ ਸਰਬ ਭੂਤ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਦੇਵਾਧਿ ਦੇਵ ਸਹਸ ਮੁਖ ਫਨਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥

Rām ravaṇ ḏuraṯ ḏavaṇ sakal bẖavaṇ kusal karaṇ sarab bẖūṯ āp hī ḏevāḏẖ ḏev sahas mukẖ faninḏ jī▫o.

The Lord of contemplation, Destroyer of sin, who brings pleasure to the beings of all realms, He Himself is the God of gods, Divinity of the divine, the thousand-headed king cobra.

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥

Jaram karam macẖẖ kacẖẖ hu▫a barāh jamunā kai kūl kẖel kẖeli▫o jin binn jī▫o.

He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥

Nām sār hī▫e ḏẖār ṯaj bikār man ga▫yanḏ saṯgurū saṯgurū saṯgur gubinḏ jī▫o. ||4||9||

Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||

ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

Sirī gurū sirī gurū sirī gurū saṯ jī▫o.

The Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the True, Dear Lord.

ਗੁਰ ਕਹਿਆ ਮਾਨੁ ਨਿਜ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਇਹੈ ਨਿਸਿ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਹੋਇ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਲਹਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

Gur kahi▫ā mān nij niḏẖān sacẖ jān manṯar ihai nis bāsur ho▫e kal▫yān lahėh param gaṯ jī▫o.

Respect and obey the Guru's Word; this is your own personal treasure - know this mantra as true. Night and day, you shall be saved, and blessed with the supreme status.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਜਣ ਜਣ ਸਿਉ ਛਾਡੁ ਧੋਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾ ਫੰਧੁ ਕਾਟੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਰਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

Kām kroḏẖ lobẖ moh jaṇ jaṇ si▫o cẖẖād ḏẖohu ha▫umai kā fanḏẖ kāt sāḏẖsang raṯ jī▫o.

Renounce sexual desire, anger, greed and attachment; give up your games of deception. Snap the noose of egotism, and let yourself be at home in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

ਦੇਹ ਗੇਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਚਿਤ ਬਿਲਾਸੁ ਜਗਤ ਏਹੁ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਸਦਾ ਸੇਉ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਤਾ ਕਰੁ ਮਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

Ḏeh gehu ṯari▫a sanehu cẖiṯ bilās jagaṯ ehu cẖaran kamal saḏā se▫o ḏariṛ▫ṯā kar maṯ jī▫o.

Free your consciousness of attachment to your body, your home, your spouse, and the pleasures of this world. Serve forever at His Lotus Feet, and firmly implant these teachings within.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥੧੦॥

Nām sār hī▫e ḏẖār ṯaj bikār man ga▫yanḏ sirī gurū sirī gurū sirī gurū saṯ jī▫o. ||5||10||

Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand. the Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the True, Dear Lord. ||5||10||

ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥

Sevak kai bẖarpūr jug jug vāhgurū ṯerā sabẖ saḏkā.

Your servants are totally fulfilled, throughout the ages; O Waahay Guru, it is all You, forever.

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਕਹਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਊ ਤੂ ਕਦ ਕਾ ॥

Nirankār parabẖ saḏā salāmaṯ kahi na sakai ko▫ū ṯū kaḏ kā.

O Formless Lord God, You are eternally intact; no one can say how You came into being.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਸਿਰੇ ਤੈ ਅਗਨਤ ਤਿਨ ਕਉ ਮੋਹੁ ਭਯਾ ਮਨ ਮਦ ਕਾ ॥

Barahmā bisan sire ṯai agnaṯ ṯin ka▫o moh bẖa▫yā man maḏ kā.

You created countless Brahmas and Vishnus; their minds were intoxicated with emotional attachment.

ਚਵਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੋਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਸਭ ਹੂ ਕਉ ਤਦ ਕਾ ॥

Cẖavrāsīh lakẖ jon upā▫ī rijak ḏī▫ā sabẖ hū ka▫o ṯaḏ kā.

You created the 8.4 million species of beings, and provide for their sustanance.

ਸੇਵਕ ਕੈ ਭਰਪੂਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਭੁ ਸਦਕਾ ॥੧॥੧੧॥

Sevak kai bẖarpūr jug jug vāhgurū ṯerā sabẖ saḏkā. ||1||11||

Your servants are totally fulfilled, throughout the ages; O Waahay Guru, it is all You, forever. ||1||11||

ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਾ ਬਡਾ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥

vāhu vāhu kā badā ṯamāsā.

Waaho! Waaho! Great! Great is the Play of God!

ਆਪੇ ਹਸੈ ਆਪਿ ਹੀ ਚਿਤਵੈ ਆਪੇ ਚੰਦੁ ਸੂਰੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਾ ॥

Āpe hasai āp hī cẖiṯvai āpe cẖanḏ sūr pargāsā.

He Himself laughs, and He Himself thinks; He Himself illumines the sun and the moon.

ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਆਪੇ ਥਲੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਕੀਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬਾਸਾ ॥

Āpe jal āpe thal thamĥan āpe kī▫ā gẖat gẖat bāsā.

He Himself is the water, He Himself is the earth and its support. He Himself abides in each and every heart.

ਆਪੇ ਨਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਫੁਨਿ ਨਾਰੀ ਆਪੇ ਸਾਰਿ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਪਾਸਾ ॥

Āpe nar āpe fun nārī āpe sār āp hī pāsā.

He Himself is male, and He Himself is female; He Himself is the chessman, and He Himself is the board.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਭੈ ਬਿਚਾਰਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਕਾ ਬਡਾ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥੨॥੧੨॥

Gurmukẖ sangaṯ sabẖai bicẖārahu vāhu vāhu kā badā ṯamāsā. ||2||12||

As Gurmukh, join the Sangat, and consider all this: Waaho! Waaho! Great! Great is the Play of God! ||2||12||

~SGGS Ji ang 1403

It says the das Avatara are from the God and not calling as the same as the demi-gods who were created as part of materiality. When you claim the MahaVishnu (all-pervading aspect equal to Parabrahm, not Visnu of the sansaar) avatars are the equal of the demi-gods you are confused. When you say the Islamic Mahdi Shia propeht is destined to kill the Kalki avatar, you are a heretic. Please, show me where it says that in Gurbani. I guess you think maybe Talibans will uphold the Dharma. Is this the new propaganda?

ਤਾਸੁ ਚਰਨ ਲੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸਾਵਉ ॥

Ŧās cẖaran le riḏai basāva▫o.

Grasp His Feet and enshrine them in your heart.

ਤਉ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਉ ॥੧॥

Ŧa▫o param gurū Nānak gun gāva▫o. ||1||

Then, let us sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak. ||1||

ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਨ ਪਰਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ ਦੁਰਤ ਨਿਵਾਰਣ ਸਬਦ ਸਰੇ ॥

Gāva▫o gun param gurū sukẖ sāgar ḏuraṯ nivāraṇ sabaḏ sare.

I sing the Glorious Praises of the most exalted Guru Nanak, the Ocean of peace, the Eradicator of sins, the sacred pool of the Shabad, the Word of God.

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੰਭੀਰ ਧੀਰ ਮਤਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੰਗਮ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧਰੇ ॥

Gāvahi gambẖīr ḏẖīr maṯ sāgar jogī jangam ḏẖi▫ān ḏẖare.

The beings of deep and profound understanding, oceans of wisdom, sing of Him; the Yogis and wandering hermits meditate on Him.

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿ ਭਗਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿਕ ਆਤਮ ਰਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥

Gāvahi inḏrāḏ bẖagaṯ par▫hilāḏik āṯam ras jin jāṇi▫o.

Indra and devotees like Prahlaad, who know the joy of the soul, sing of Him.

ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੨॥

Kab kal sujas gāva▫o gur Nānak rāj jog jin māṇi▫o. ||2||

KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||2||

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜਨਕਾਦਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਰਸ ਪੂਰਨ ਸਰਬ ਕਲਾ ॥

Gāvahi jankāḏ jugaṯ jogesur har ras pūran sarab kalā.

King Janak and the great Yogic heroes of the Lord's Way, sing the Praises of the All-powerful Primal Being, filled with the sublime essence of the Lord.

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਨਕਾਦਿ ਸਾਧ ਸਿਧਾਦਿਕ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਅਛਲ ਛਲਾ ॥

Gāvahi sankāḏ sāḏẖ siḏẖāḏik mun jan gāvahi acẖẖal cẖẖalā.

Sanak and Brahma's sons, the Saadhus and Siddhas, the silent sages and humble servants of the Lord sing the Praises of Guru Nanak, who cannot be deceived by the great deceiver.

ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਧੋਮੁ ਅਟਲ ਮੰਡਲਵੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਰਸੁ ਜਾਣਿਓ ॥

Gāvai guṇ ḏẖom atal mandlavai bẖagaṯ bẖā▫e ras jāṇi▫o.

Dhoma the seer and Dhroo, whose realm is unmoving, sing the Glorious Praises of Guru Nanak, who knows the ecstasy of loving devotional worship.

ਕਬਿ ਕਲ ਸੁਜਸੁ ਗਾਵਉ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੩॥

Kab kal sujas gāva▫o gur Nānak rāj jog jin māṇi▫o. ||3||

KAL the poet sings the Sublime Praises of Guru Nanak, who enjoys mastery of Raja Yoga. ||3||

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਕਪਿਲਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜੋਗੇਸੁਰ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਰੋ ॥

Gāvahi kapilāḏ āḏ jogesur aprampar avṯār varo.

Kapila and the other Yogis sing of Guru Nanak. He is the Avataar, the Incarnation of the Infinite Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 1389

When you say the avtaras of the God are deficient, and suffer from ahankar and need to be punished by some Muslim prophet, you are an idiot, because your own Guru Dev is in the lineage of these avtaras. You are confusing avtaras with demi-gods, not surprising given the level of your ignorance. But the outrageous claim that the avtar to come next, which is Kalki is against the God, even as He is coming FROM the God and thus CONNECTED to as coming from the same Jyot, Guru Nanak Jyot and must be punished by being killed by Islamic prophet?

What kind of Sikhs are these? This thread is entitled Strange Hinduism, and is about condemnation of the same. What are you people promoting besides filth and hatred and treason against your own beliefs?

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Gurbani is teaching the avataras are evil and deserve to be punished by death at hands of Muslim Mehdi Prophet? May I ask if you ever bother to READ OWN GURBANI? Or do you learn Sikhi from politically mischievous Muslims intent on spreading hatred against Hindu community and to destroy Hindu religion?

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥

Jaram karam macẖẖ kacẖẖ hu▫a barāh jamunā kai kūl kẖel kẖeli▫o jin binn jī▫o.

He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਹੀਏ ਧਾਰੁ ਤਜੁ ਬਿਕਾਰੁ ਮਨ ਗਯੰਦ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਗੁਬਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੯॥

Nām sār hī▫e ḏẖār ṯaj bikār man ga▫yanḏ saṯgurū saṯgurū saṯgur gubinḏ jī▫o. ||4||9||

Enshrine this most excellent Name within your heart, and renounce the wickedness of the mind, O Gayand the True Guru, the True Guru, the True Guru is the Lord of the Universe Himself. ||4||9||

ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

Sirī gurū sirī gurū sirī gurū saṯ jī▫o.

The Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the Supreme Guru, the True, Dear Lord.

ਗੁਰ ਕਹਿਆ ਮਾਨੁ ਨਿਜ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਇਹੈ ਨਿਸਿ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਹੋਇ ਕਲ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਲਹਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

Gur kahi▫ā mān nij niḏẖān sacẖ jān manṯar ihai nis bāsur ho▫e kal▫yān lahėh param gaṯ jī▫o.

Respect and obey the Guru's Word; this is your own personal treasure - know this mantra as true. Night and day, you shall be saved, and blessed with the supreme status.

~SGGS Ji ang 1403

Edited by HarjasKaur

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To admin, please remove first post in this thread. I am not posting in support of first post. I posted in response to Harjas.

Thank you Laal Singh Ji. However, you were posting in response to my response to the first thread. It cannot be taken out of context that you were attacking my protest and not my beliefs. As I said before, the discussion is being derailed by people antagonistic to Hindus, the same antagonism reflected in the very topic thread and first post.

Don't take my words out of context. Nothing in Gurbani teaching supports anything of the first post and that was entire reason for my posting here, not to debate interpretations with people. Believe whatever you want. I really don't care. Just stop promoting from within Sikh community such bitter hatreds of Hindu people and Hindu religion please! I was trying to show in the best way I know that the very topic and first post ARE AGAINST GURBANI TEACHING AND HURTING SIKHS AS WELL AS HINDUS. I have nothing at all else to say to you people who went so far as to call me a homosexual and a whore the last time I debated.

I have nothing else to say except to object to this entire thread and the hate it promotes. Sadly, removing the first post will only create the impression of my posts being attacked by all you people and remove the context of why I was even here. So either the entire thread should be removed, or everything should be left intact so people have understanding what I was objecting to.

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I didn't say Kalki was evil. I told you what Guru Sahib has written - that he will suffer from haumai and be killed. Why do you say Mehdi Avtar is Muslim? By the way, he too will suffer haumai at the end and be dealt with by Akaal Purakh. You call me an idiot but these are not my words, but those of Guru Nanak Dev ji's tenth form. So what are you implying?

All this can be read in Chaubis Avtar, Sri Dasam Granth. Here (read the page the link will take you to, and the next): http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=1193

The quotes you posted do nothing to back up your claim that Guru Sahib "will come again as Kalki". Maybe this is one example of where Sikhi differs with your mat. Thanks for bringing it up.

Guru Rakha.

Edited by Matheen

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The world Sikhi originated in consisted of Hindus and Muslims. Sikhi presented the truth in a way that was acceptable to both sides. Sikhi was about unity and using common language to transcend differences instead of reinforcing difference. These Hindu fanatics attempt to erase any islamic influence from Sikhi. Their peculiar brand of unity is merely a tool of political hinduism and politics only causes division and suffering. Instead of uniting under a common umbrella of core values and beliefs, these Hindu Fanatics and also Islamic fanatics, are hell bent on preserving their own seperate identity, due to as always a sense of ontological insecurity. I say you can find the truth in anything you perceive it is not limited to a particular culture religion or beleif.

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These Hindu fanatics attempt to erase any islamic influence from Sikhi. Their peculiar brand of unity is merely a tool of political hinduism and politics only causes division and suffering.

This forum accuses me yet again of being part of political mischief, when I am responding to a clear insult against Hindu women and Hindu scriptures. What is this? How crazy. I represent myself, not some nefarious shadow organizations. What causes division and suffering is to accuse that Hindu scriptures call Hindu women as whores. THAT is the kind of thing which promotes religious hatred. And stop derailing that obvious fact.

The world Sikhi originated in consisted of Hindus and Muslims.

Did it really? I thought it was war and oppression caused by the Mughal Muslims which brought the religion of the Prophet to Hindustan by force. Sikhi is not any blending of Islam. It is to make Sanatana Dharma acceptable by finding common ground so that people would not be persecuted and tortured for their faith, by showing that yes, even Hindu's believe in the One God. Sikhi came into existance to defend the innocent against persecutions by Muslims. And it is true that Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji has historically had the title of Hind di chaadar, the blanket of protection of the Hindus. What did Guruji protect the Hindus from? From Muslim atrocities committed in the name of terrorizing kafirs until they converted and their own religion was destroyed. I'm sorry if it offends you. But it is no extremism on my part to tell the historical truth. The Guru Sahibaan were never against Islam the way Islam was against Sanatana Dharma, and indeed took efforts to be fair and Dharmic at all times to the literal enemy, as we see in example of Bhai Kanaya giving water to wounded Muslim soldiers fighting the Sikhs. How could the Sikhs both literally be fighting a war against Muslims and be a part of Muslims? It makes no sense. Some spiritual Muslim people who were opposed to the injustices of the Mughal Raj did in fact come to the Sikh Guru's in support. And some of those actually became the Guru's chelas. But in order to become that, they had first by bowing to Guru, lose their Islam. Because you cannot at one time bow your hairs to Sikh Guru and be a Muslim.

ਥਾਨ ਮੁਕਾਮ ਜਲੇ ਬਿਜ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੁਛਿ ਮੁਛਿ ਕੁਇਰ ਰੁਲਾਇਆ ॥

Thān mukām jale bij manḏar mucẖẖ mucẖẖ ku▫ir rulā▫i▫ā.

He burned the rest-houses and the ancient temples; he cut the princes limb from limb, and cast them into the dust.

ਕੋਈ ਮੁਗਲੁ ਨ ਹੋਆ ਅੰਧਾ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਰਚਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥੪॥

Ko▫ī mugal na ho▫ā anḏẖā kinai na parcẖā lā▫i▫ā. ||4||

None of the Mugals went blind, and no one performed any miracle. ||4||

ਮੁਗਲ ਪਠਾਣਾ ਭਈ ਲੜਾਈ ਰਣ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਗ ਵਗਾਈ ॥

Mugal paṯẖāṇā bẖa▫ī laṛā▫ī raṇ mėh ṯeg vagā▫ī.

The battle raged between the Mugals and the Pat'haans, and the swords clashed on the battlefield.

ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਤੁਪਕ ਤਾਣਿ ਚਲਾਈ ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਹਸਤਿ ਚਿੜਾਈ ॥

Onĥī ṯupak ṯāṇ cẖalā▫ī onĥī hasaṯ cẖiṛā▫ī.

They took aim and fired their guns, and they attacked with their elephants.

ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੀ ਚੀਰੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਟੀ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਮਰਣਾ ਭਾਈ ॥੫॥

Jinĥ kī cẖīrī ḏargėh pātī ṯinĥā marṇā bẖā▫ī. ||5||

Those men whose letters were torn in the Lord's Court, were destined to die, O Siblings of Destiny. ||5||

ਇਕ ਹਿੰਦਵਾਣੀ ਅਵਰ ਤੁਰਕਾਣੀ ਭਟਿਆਣੀ ਠਕੁਰਾਣੀ ॥

Ik hinḏvāṇī avar ṯurkāṇī bẖati▫āṇī ṯẖakurāṇī.

The Hindu women, the Muslim women, the Bhattis and the Rajputs -

ਇਕਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਪੇਰਣ ਸਿਰ ਖੁਰ ਪਾਟੇ ਇਕਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਵਾਸੁ ਮਸਾਣੀ ॥

Iknĥā peraṇ sir kẖur pāte iknĥā vās masāṇī.

some had their robes torn away, from head to foot, while others came to dwell in the cremation ground.

ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਬੰਕੇ ਘਰੀ ਨ ਆਇਆ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਿਉ ਰੈਣਿ ਵਿਹਾਣੀ ॥੬॥

Jinĥ ke banke gẖarī na ā▫i▫ā ṯinĥ ki▫o raiṇ vihāṇī. ||6||

Their husbands did not return home - how did they pass their night? ||6||

ਆਪੇ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਏ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਈਐ ॥

Āpe kare karā▫e karṯā kis no ākẖ suṇā▫ī▫ai.

The Creator Himself acts, and causes others to act. Unto whom should we complain?

ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਤੇਰੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਿਸ ਥੈ ਜਾਇ ਰੂਆਈਐ ॥

Ḏukẖ sukẖ ṯerai bẖāṇai hovai kis thai jā▫e rū▫ā▫ī▫ai.

Pleasure and pain come by Your Will; unto whom should we go and cry?

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਚਲਾਏ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੭॥੧੨॥

Hukmī hukam cẖalā▫e vigsai Nānak likẖi▫ā pā▫ī▫ai. ||7||12||

The Commander issues His Command, and is pleased. O Nanak, we receive what is written in our destiny. ||7||12||

~SGGS Ji ang 418

The above is the historical context of the introduction of Islamic religion with Hindus. It is not exactly a "unity." Sikhi blending Hindu-Muslim unity during a time of war and persecutions is to promote the survival of the community AND the historical religion of the ancestors.

Sikhi was about unity and using common language to transcend differences instead of reinforcing difference.

The Guru Sahibaan did not create Punjabi language. Punjabi language with its mix of Sanskrit, Braj, Hindi, Arabic, Farsi, and Urdu for example was a reflection of the Mughal domination of Punjab. So the Guru Sahibaan took the rich Vedic teachings and translated them into Punjabi in a way intended to lead to harmony and peaceful coexistence WITHOUT renouncing the Sanatan heritage. Guru Sahib created Gurmukhi to teach the people and create literacy and knowledgable awareness of their heritage, both the corruptions and untruths within it as well as the core spiritual truths within it.

Or are you implying that such words as reincarnation, karma, dharma, bhakti, kirtan, mukti, nirgun, sargun, yoga, meditation, brahmgyan, dasam duar, deva lokas, etc. somehow relate to Islam? Because entire context of core Sikhi teaching is rooted in Vedic scriptures. That is the origin of these words and concepts. I mean no disrespect to Islam, but I'm hard pressed to imagine them as Islamic concepts. Islam is about accepting Mohammed as God's final prophet and the Koran as God's final authority. To do this, you immediately reject EVERYTHING else. Sanatana Dharma has no teaching like this. It can't even be compared. Since there is karma and reincarnation there is no need for missionaries to save people or jihadis to punish people over religion.

tnGuruNanaks.jpg

The original pothi, rudraksha bead mala, and Padam saligram of Guru Nanak Dev Ji preserved in Bedi family.

ਸਦ ਹੀ ਭੋਗੁ ਲਗਾਇ ਸੁਗਿਆਨੀ ॥

Saḏ hī bẖog lagā▫e sugi▫ānī.

he makes continual offerings to the Lord; he is a true man of wisdom.

ਬਿਰਥਾ ਕਾਹੂ ਛੋਡੈ ਨਾਹੀ ॥

Birthā kāhū cẖẖodai nāhī.

He never leaves anything uselessly.

ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਲਾਗਹ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥

Bahur bahur ṯis lāgah pā▫ī. ||1||

Again and again, he falls at the Lord's Feet. ||1||

ਸਾਲਗਿਰਾਮੁ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਸੇਵਾ ॥

Sālgirām hamārai sevā.

Such is the Saalagraam, the stone idol, which I serve;

ਪੂਜਾ ਅਰਚਾ ਬੰਦਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Pūjā arcẖā banḏan ḏevā. ||1|| rahā▫o.

such is my worship, flower-offerings and divine adoration as well. ||1||Pause||

ਘੰਟਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਚਹੁ ਕੁੰਟ ॥

Gẖantā jā kā sunī▫ai cẖahu kunt.

His bell resounds to the four corners of the world.

ਆਸਨੁ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਸਦਾ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ॥

Āsan jā kā saḏā baikunṯẖ.

His seat is forever in heaven.

ਜਾ ਕਾ ਚਵਰੁ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਝੂਲੈ ॥

Jā kā cẖavar sabẖ ūpar jẖūlai.

His chauri, his fly-brush, waves over all.

ਤਾ ਕਾ ਧੂਪੁ ਸਦਾ ਪਰਫੁਲੈ ॥੨॥

Ŧā kā ḏẖūp saḏā parfulai. ||2||

His incense is ever-fragrant. ||2||

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸੰਪਟੁ ਹੈ ਰੇ ਜਾ ਕਾ ॥

Gẖat gẖat sampat hai re jā kā.

He is treasured in each and every heart.

ਅਭਗ ਸਭਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਹੈ ਸਾਧਾ ॥

Abẖag sabẖā sang hai sāḏẖā.

The Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is His Eternal Court.

ਆਰਤੀ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦ ॥

Ārṯī kīrṯan saḏā anand.

His Aartee, his lamp-lit worship service, is the Kirtan of His Praises, which brings lasting bliss.

ਮਹਿਮਾ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਸਦਾ ਬੇਅੰਤ ॥੩॥

Mahimā sunḏar saḏā be▫anṯ. ||3||

His Greatness is so beautiful, and ever limitless. ||3||

ਜਿਸਹਿ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਲਹਨਾ ॥

Jisahi parāpaṯ ṯis hī lahnā.

He alone obtains it, who is so pre-ordained;

ਸੰਤ ਚਰਨ ਓਹੁ ਆਇਓ ਸਰਨਾ ॥

Sanṯ cẖaran oh ā▫i▫o sarnā.

he takes to the Sanctuary of the Saints' Feet.

ਹਾਥਿ ਚੜਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਲਗਿਰਾਮੁ ॥

Hāth cẖaṛi▫o har sālgirām.

I hold in my hands the Saalagraam of the Lord.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਦਾਨੁ ॥੪॥੩੯॥੯੦॥

Kaho Nānak gur kīno ḏān. ||4||39||90||

Says Nanak, the Guru has given me this Gift. ||4||39||90||

~SGGS Ji ang 393

I just fail to see Sikhi as any kind of denial of Sanatana Dharma to appease the violence of Mughals of the time. Sikhi is a unity in a spiritual way which promotes tolerance and peaceful coexistence. To my knowledge, Islam still renounces every other religion as false, every other form of worship as false, and still murders unbelievers, Muslims who have converted, etc. Else why is the world having such a problem with Muslim extremism if not for such being actual scriptural teachings of Islam? But respectfully, there are good Muslim people who do not support this. Sadly, the Muslim orthodoxy does. The Muslim officialdom does. The Muslim clerics and scholars do. So we cannot ignore either the weight of history or the persuasion of the leaders of Islamic religion that they do in fact represent it's teachings. I have never spoken AGAINST Muslim people by telling historical truths, why do you so accuse?

Do you see anything in Islam which accepts bowing down to a Padam Saligram (representation of Vishnu) as the Lord's feet? Bowing down to a human Guru as when Guru Sahibaan were alive and in form people did. Bowing down to Shri Guru Granth Sahib?

Instead of uniting under a common umbrella of core values and beliefs, these Hindu Fanatics and also Islamic fanatics, are hell bent on preserving their own seperate identity, due to as always a sense of ontological insecurity.

Why do you call me a Hindu fanatic simply to protest this thread against Hindu's posted under Hindu section of the website? And I am not insecure in my beliefs. I know exactly why I believe them. I agree wholeheartedly that all people should be united under a common umbrella of core values and beliefs. I have NO PROBLEM with tolerance of other religions. I do not care what Muslims believe nor have I ever posted on their forums. NEVER. I have no intention of showing disrespect to sincere Muslim people or debating against their beliefs. My problem is only when their missionaries have initiated attacks on our websites. In those cases I do refute them.

I say you can find the truth in anything you perceive it is not limited to a particular culture religion or beleif.

I never said otherwise, contrary to Muslim Missionaries who preach that only through ISLAM can anyone be saved. And without converting to ISLAM everyone will go to hell. Or that people who believe in other religions are false and of the devil. I believe in the undying truths of sanatana Dharma, that all people who are sincere in their religions, false or true, will come on the right path with right understanding eventually, because all jivas are a part of the One Divine.

When I am speaking to Sikhs it is to remind them their own historical roots and even Sanatan teachings in Gurbani and historical Sanatan sects which has existed within and around Sikhi since even time of Baba Shri Chand, Guru Nanak Dev Ji's son and Udasi movement. How sad that someone will be so traumatized by politics to have hatred and bitter rejection of own heritage. To promote awareness so Sikhs can be tolerant of own historical lineage and not be disrespecting Hindu scriptures and Hindu women is NOT promoting Muslim hatred.

These Hindu fanatics attempt to erase any islamic influence from Sikhi.

Oh, the Islamic influence is there, in local language, dress styles, etc. due to the hundreds of years of Muslim occupation. But the religious and philosophical teachings? They are not Islamic. They are undeniably rooted in Hindu religion. Can you prove otherwise? Can you please prove how Islam teaches the creation of the universes through Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu and the three gunas and power of Maya? If you can, please do so on another thread. I'm interested to know how Islam incorporated bhagavan Krishna mentioned in Gurbani, or explains the Waheguru gurmantra. If Sikhi is just a form of Islam, how do Muslims explain calling the God any other name then Allah?

Sikhi presented the truth in a way that was acceptable to both sides.

Sikhi has always accepted. Sanatana Dharma has always accepted. It was the "both sides" which was always the problem. Islam has yet to accept any other version of religion as being worthy or true. And that is the rationale behind the Mughal invasion and the atrocities to terrorize conversions. It is the rationale behind charging Sikhs Jizhia tax. It is behind why 30% population of Hindu's and Sikhs in Pakistan has become 1%. And that is why Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaaj was beheaded and became Hindu Di Chaadar.

Edited by HarjasKaur

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Maybe you are missing. The point is this thread, in Hindu religion section:

Strange Hinduism: Answer this u so called Sanatan Sikhs

And initial post which includes comments reflecting hatred and mockery of Hindus and Hindu religion such as this direct quote:

"Hinduism claims that women are not only like whores by nature..."

And there is NO other point but that I protest against this as divisive, causing unnecessary hatred of Hindus and reflects poorly on Gurbani teaching and makes fool of Guru Sahibaan's own bani which contains quotes from those scriptures which are taken completely out of context to reveal pornographic mind and low spiritual jeevan of the poster.

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The problem here results from the emotions that are ignited by the fire of spirituality, being projected onto the profane world of outer occurences and into politics. Essentially true Islam is the same as true Sikhi and true Hinduism. Anyone who disputes this point is a fool and not worth talking with. The only difference lies in how people have distorted the pure religious teachings for their worldly ends. As has been discussed prior, myths and parables are open to a variety of diverse interpretations, those who wish to do injustice will readily twist these malleable ideas to create justification for their injustices. Let us focus on either (1) concentrating on spiritual matters and aim to forge a set of ideas that do not exclude any race or faith and aim to find the unity behind all religious traditions OR (2) Concentrate on worldly matters of injustice against communities perpetrated by other communities who use their religious tradition as a method of securing or expanding physical and cultural boundaries.

Finding the truth in all religious ideas is the real Sanatana Dharma."reincarnation, karma, dharma, bhakti, kirtan, mukti, nirgun, sargun, yoga, meditation, brahmgyan, dasam duar, deva lokas" All these words I have seen analogous ones in Islam and some other tradtions i Have been lucky enough to study. But this requires the ability to look at the essence of what the word represents and not just the outer meaning of the word.

The Sanatana Dharma that emphasises that Hinduism is the best thing since sliced bread is the fruit of the tree planted by the british. It uses stresses values such as unity and all-inclusiveness and then regards Islam as a religion created by the Devil himself. And some fanatics of Sanatana Dharma even promote using a nuclear bomb on Pakistan! What love and what unity!

With regard to people 'disrespecting' hinduism by interpreting myths in a crude way, let them, people have always done this. It is better to be honest and say what you think about these myths. I think many hindus probably think the same, but out of fear they don't say anything. On the face of it the characters of Hindu myths seem like maniacs, look at Durvasas Rishi who curses anyone who looks at him funnily. What difference is this to the Prophet saying curses to the unbelievers in the Quran? To the uninitiated both will seem like maniacs. But those partial to Hinduism will defend its form and those partial to Islam its form. but the essence is the same.

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Harjas Kaur Ji,

Sister, you really need to chill out, be kind yourself. Have a look at your quote below your posts:

Nalpe sukham asti - "finite things do not contain happiness"

~Rishi Sanatkumara, Chandogya Upanishad

This forum, this discussion is finite. There are people who are hinduphobic (to a certain extent) even here, but no one here really took the two-bit posting of Akaal Das as requiring any opposition.

While you have objected to being part of any political group as few posts ago - you have falsely labelled all of us on this forum as being of the same mindset as Akaal Das.

You've mistaken our silence on the post for 100% approval. I and I am sure others saw Akaal Das' post as 'Hate Bait' and on this occasion took it as something that requires no response.

This is not because it is not wrong - rather I am sure most people took it as 'Never argue with a fool' which 'Akaal Das' clearly has shown his self to be.

We've seen what's happened since you have responded, it's not peace that has ensued - rather more heated discussion. However, none of this consequent discussion has been anywhere near justifying Akaal Das's post.

The trouble maker is long gone but you still want to prove some thing that isn't there. I am sure he's sitting somewhere laughing to himself and enjoying winding you up by proxy.

I have a question for you:

Does silence means 100% tacit agreement?

If so then there is a big dilemma we all face.

For you that'd mean everytime Sikhs or Hindus or anyone for that matter (does your definition of Dharma extend that far?) are slandered you have to be there defending Dharma.

I agree this sometimes works and we all have a duty to stop two-bit interpretations of faith, but you also have to realise that not everyone is 100% inclined to always fight for Dharma. Sometimes not engaging the 'enemy' is the path to victory.

I sincerely believe this was such an instance - you did not. We can agree to disagree.

Since the discussion has moved on from the initial post and if it's a philosophical discussion you want - I suggest starting a new thread.

Last thing:

People see things through different lenses. You see Sikhi through your Sanatan Dharam lens. Others in the past have shown very compelling arguments for Sikhi being philisophically derived from Islam. 'My' understanding is that we interpret things according to our 'own understanding' as Guru Sahib states.

Thanks

Ishwar Singh.

Edited by ishvar2

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It should go without saying that women can be whores. And men too can be whores. Sexual promiscuity and adultery etc are not exclusive to any faith, race, nation etc - it is present everywhere. The reverse is also true, as there are good, honest and faithful people from all backgrounds. Why this pointless fact has led to a massive debate over nothing is stupid.

As for harjas, she hasnt really refuted Akaal Das's points, but has tried to stir up an argument and then make us feel bad for whatever we are now meant to feel bad about. What was it now? Oh yes, Sant Bhindranwale Ji is our version of Hitler according to her, and we should all treat a few hindus pulled off a bus and being shot by god knows who as some kind of Holocaust. Oh i feel so bad being a sikh! Surely to make up for it i must be a true sanatan khalsa and rush headlong into the defence of the hindu motherland by killing a regiment of pakis - because that's what our Guru's made Sikhi for isnt it?

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