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laalsingh

Can An Experience Change Your Conviction?

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Whole pasara of Waheguru is a miracle. Every flash moment these mortal eyes can see and limited buddhi can comprehend is a miracle, though there are infinite dimensions like this, which I can't even dare to think about.

How He run things from minute to grandest scale, is a miracle.If a devi appears or image of Satguru Nanak appears in front of me or another sense opens with grace of Waheguru, would be just another miracle.

I am already 'wow' looking at His leela.

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When I was in my teens I took an heroic dose of psilocybin cubensis (magic mushrooms for the unintiated) and had the experience of being everything, everywhere, at all times.

"Something" watched as my puny and terrified ego was cornered and finally destroyed. At that point, something that was greater than I, became brilliantly bright and deeply loving at the same time. I don't know how long this lasted, but it seemed like an eternity.

At some point, I regained consciousness of my body and realised that I was lying prostate on the bare earth and was being inspected by the most beautiful creature I had ever seen. It was like a giant worm made of crystal light with wings formed out of rainbows.

In response to the question in my mind, the being told me that he was the god of the maggots and wanted to know why I had killed one of his children (I guess I must have killed one when I was cleaning up the freshly picked mushrooms). I mentally told the being that I was deeply sorry and that I must have made a mistake.

I wanted to know what the hell the being was, and it showed me how it was the living force that permeated every life form on this planet, and how its essence was universal. (At this point, I threw up and my vomit contained the galaxy we reside in and the larger universe in which our galaxy resides. All of these stars, planets, nebulae, and even the empty spaces in between, glowed with the same kind of light out of which the being was formed.)

For a long time afterwards I was able to see the living light in every tree, plant, flower, insect and human. Ever since, I've had a deep respect for every living thing. I fully understand now why some Buddhists and Jains carry their ahimsa to such great lengths, and why every religion and culture in the world has some form of ritual or prayer before they hunt and kill an animal.

Now, I guess you can say that this was just a chemical reaction in the brain, but phenomenologically I believe there is no such distinction between chemically assisted experiences and experiences which come as a result of brain change due to deep concentration and intense emotion.

I also believe that such experiences are completely personal and serve as individual signposts in our unique journeys. The only danger lies in idolising the experience and believing that they are of universal importance that need to be communicated to the rest of the world. For example, I would have been wrong to declare that the God of the Maggots was real in some transpersonal sense and I needed to adapt Gurbani in order to fit in with my individual experience.

Like siddhis, such things come and go, but ultimately it is you who have to adapt and utilise your personal experiences to make Gurbani a greater part of your life.

From the experience of family members, it is very possible to be taken advantage of by "miracle workers" and spiritual beings in order that you leave the path to Akal and worship them instead. Ultimately though, whatever powers such beings have, they all come from Akal, and bhakti and abhyaas place all such things in subordination to a Gursikh with great kamaee.

K.

Was it god or goddess? Must be mom. Dads are careless and give a damn about kids. Give us more details. Sangat is curious. Some people can tell gender of LIGHT, you can do better.

Kalijug ji, you are absolutely right. These incidents are just SIGNPOSTS and weak ones take these as final destination. Beautiful post (and experience).

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Was it god or goddess? Must be mom. Dads are careless and give a damn about kids. Give us more details. Sangat is curious. Some people can tell gender of LIGHT, you can do better.

LOL

From personal experience, a truth which is beyond words and human comprehension will sometimes appear in a form due to the past karmas and for the benefit of the person concerned. I didn't have any impression of any particular gender, perhaps because I had a pretty loving set of parents and I had no need of another mother or father. It's my belief that one may have an experience of a loving mother or a strong guiding father figure when one's ego is annihilated because that is exactly what the person needs at that time.

K.

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Convictions definitly help people along the path, it provides them with what you could call the fruits of their bandgi and simran. There are those who may desire an experience and they will never achieve it, but those who do their bangdi with sacha mann and no desire for reward, just the fact that they are doing pooja of something which is essentially a mystery, but a force within them makes them seach for this aatma within, these people will achieve some form of "reward", it is easy to be distracted by them and let them overtake ur bandgi, and make you just stop there, however longer dedication will provide higher concepts of thought and realisation of the manifest world, allowing the person to aim for an infinite rather than a finite.

Its when you experience these that you are 100% convinced of a higher inner power, the lord of the world and creation that every day is a new revelation to the leela of akaal purakh.

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Just to digress slightly, but something I feel I need to ramble on about:

Let me give you the other side of the story- that is going away from the Guru!

I took amrit in my teens, for several years I did the all the regulation stuff, prays, gurudwara etc, etc.

In my early twenties I started changing: questioning Rabb: why after all these years of following him had I not achieved anything, both spiritual and material? I resented that I had religion forces down my throat.

over the next couple of years I gave up nitnem, cut my beard (not my hair on my head though, because that was a BIG attractor for the girls!). I started doing all the usual stuff that guys do at that age. I didn't become athiest. I always believed in the Lord - I was just effing pizzed off with Him for letting me down and not granting my desires!

Anyway, over the last couple of months I started thinking about what I have achieved in life. I came to realise that in all aspects of my life I have been a failiure in very major endevour I undertook- business, financial, career, relationships, health etc. Then having a chat with my mother (bless her cotton socks)she made me realise that I have been in this state of 'recession' since I started cutting my hair. Since I forsake my guru i have been having problem after problem. Even though I didn't actually achieve much before that, I have come to realise that I was firmly on the journey to success, albeit in the early stages.

Perhaps in my naievity I thought that the god would place everything in my laps just like that. However ,that is not how life works. You are given opportunities, coincidences happen, you meet just the right person to help you on your way, thoughts occur at the right time. and you use these things to help you progress. yet thinking back, these things were happening to me BUT I didn't appreciate it as the workings of Him. Not being spoon-fed by Him I took it as the guru refusing to help me. But the The Guru was giving me all I was asking of Him, I just couldn't see.

For the past decade, with every setback, failiure, problem I had, the Guru was sending me a quiet message to me, nudging me back onto the Path. SOmehow, 'the problems are nothing, and will only get worse if you don't go back to your guru'.

Now for whatever reason, (perhaps, because I started doing nitnem in the past year?!)he has graced me with this knowledge and realisation. I now know what must be done if I want to gain spiritual and material prosperity.

They say the Lord works in mysterious ways and for me He has been for the past many years. It wasn't supernatural or divine or miraculous in the popular sense but it still carried the same meaning. Being of moti-buddhi its taken over 10 yrs to understand. Oh well, time get moving.

Hope some of that makes sense to you you guys.

fateh.

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recently, I have been experiencing the beauty and intense energy of the divine in nature. pavan guru pani pita mata dharat mahat. The energy resonating from all things is immense..

Maybe im just turning into some kind of hippy, but my experiences have changed the way I look at everything.

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Just to digress slightly, but something I feel I need to ramble on about:

Let me give you the other side of the story- that is going away from the Guru!

I took amrit in my teens, for several years I did the all the regulation stuff, prays, gurudwara etc, etc.

In my early twenties I started changing: questioning Rabb: why after all these years of following him had I not achieved anything, both spiritual and material? I resented that I had religion forces down my throat.

over the next couple of years I gave up nitnem, cut my beard (not my hair on my head though, because that was a BIG attractor for the girls!). I started doing all the usual stuff that guys do at that age. I didn't become athiest. I always believed in the Lord - I was just effing pizzed off with Him for letting me down and not granting my desires!

Anyway, over the last couple of months I started thinking about what I have achieved in life. I came to realise that in all aspects of my life I have been a failiure in very major endevour I undertook- business, financial, career, relationships, health etc. Then having a chat with my mother (bless her cotton socks)she made me realise that I have been in this state of 'recession' since I started cutting my hair. Since I forsake my guru i have been having problem after problem. Even though I didn't actually achieve much before that, I have come to realise that I was firmly on the journey to success, albeit in the early stages.

Perhaps in my naievity I thought that the god would place everything in my laps just like that. However ,that is not how life works. You are given opportunities, coincidences happen, you meet just the right person to help you on your way, thoughts occur at the right time. and you use these things to help you progress. yet thinking back, these things were happening to me BUT I didn't appreciate it as the workings of Him. Not being spoon-fed by Him I took it as the guru refusing to help me. But the The Guru was giving me all I was asking of Him, I just couldn't see.

For the past decade, with every setback, failiure, problem I had, the Guru was sending me a quiet message to me, nudging me back onto the Path. SOmehow, 'the problems are nothing, and will only get worse if you don't go back to your guru'.

Now for whatever reason, (perhaps, because I started doing nitnem in the past year?!)he has graced me with this knowledge and realisation. I now know what must be done if I want to gain spiritual and material prosperity.

They say the Lord works in mysterious ways and for me He has been for the past many years. It wasn't supernatural or divine or miraculous in the popular sense but it still carried the same meaning. Being of moti-buddhi its taken over 10 yrs to understand. Oh well, time get moving.

Hope some of that makes sense to you you guys.

fateh.

Thanks for sharing that brother. I think many of us go through similar situations and emotions on our path. I've seen rough patches in life when I've wavered in my faith. We sometimes do exactly the opposite of what we should do when hardships come. Instead of showing faith in Guruji and increasing our prayer/paath, we melt away and lose faith. Like a Gursikh once said to me, don't treat Guruji like your servant, always asking Him to do things for you and not making an effort yourself. Ardaas has to be combined with bhagati and udam(action).

It's remarkable though, once in a life if you've ever shown love to Guruji...no matter how you fall or break afterwards, Guruji has a way of nudging you back on track.

Like you said, perhaps many of us haven't had those blessed single momment experiences, but we will have had more subtle, almost unnoticeable occurances where we've felt the power an love of Guruji in our lives. Many times we "see" them after many years have passed.

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Mr. Suryadev -I also am starting to feel the same way.

Is the Guru really nudging you back or is it something that is already deeply pre-planted in your mind and you couldn't find another way to explain your hardship other than you loosing faith. Deep down sub consciensly maybe you yourself are bothered by your own actions.

Really, you will never know what would've happened if you had kept your faith over those years. It is all speculation.

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Mr. Suryadev -I also am starting to feel the same way.

Is the Guru really nudging you back or is it something that is already deeply pre-planted in your mind and you couldn't find another way to explain your hardship other than you loosing faith. Deep down sub consciensly maybe you yourself are bothered by your own actions.

Really, you will never know what would've happened if you had kept your faith over those years. It is all speculation.

I wouldn't really know now. All I can say is dont think too much about past, 'what ifs?', etc. If you start dwelling on the past,or even current status too much then it just turn s you mental and depressive.

Having said that, it really is the hardest thing to do. Being 'intelligent animals' its only our thought process that separates us from the animal world. unfortunately many people start doing tooo much of the thinking and less of the action.

SImply decided what you want to do and do it.

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I guess I breath dust of old posts, as I am new here now ...

It's 5 am, and I couldn't sleep anymore. I felt alone again, so I thought it was time to visite this "new world" for me.

I'm so curious and starving about a new way of thinking, talking and acting in life. N30 SINGH advised me to not feel awkward, so I do my best. If I feel awkward, then it is only my ego that is talking loudly into my head, like do the traders ;)

If I really want to discover the community you are, it is the best way to do it, reading your posts, and writing what they inspire me.

Actually, they are very inspirating, which is comforting for me.

"Can an experience change your conviction" is very inspirating, as I am going through experiences since ... ever I guess ! like every human, isn't it ?

For me, to be spiritual means to be alive, and to be aware of that life through my being. To be spiritual means to be able to see the biggest, the farest, the deepest, the highest, and also the little details of a daily life, the simplest things, what's going on the closest of us.

Let me develop

As a child, I probably had my own convictions, made of my own feelings. I also had to eat and ingested the convictions of my parents, of my brothers and family, which started the digestive issues !

I was young and innocent, pure and true, as a child is, and didn't want to hurt nobody. As my convictions were based on my feelings (this is hot, this itches and so and so ...) I had to change them when my parents told me I was wrong, "and there is no discusssion ! "

That is my first experiences that changed my convictions.

Later I had experiences on different levels, in the physic/material, in the psychic, in the spirit. Of course, I like to share my experiences from the spiritual domain, but I think to share experiences from the physical/material, or psychic domains, is also very interesting ... actually, more demanding.

Yes, it is pleasant to share the experience of an insight, of a moment of enlightment, or whatever we call them. I enjoy to tell mines and hear/read yours (thanks a lot HarjasKaur, for sharing yours)

Alas, it is rare to share the experiences that changed our convictions in an unpleasant way. Because it is complicated.

(I don't mean here that it is better or worse, I don't deny the valufe of any of them, don't get me wrong please)

I had a similar experience, and know what is the light HarjasKaur is talking about. I remember the feelings she describes, and all what can't be described because there is no words. When I had this first experience, 4 years ago, the day after, I thought I would never tell it because people would think I'm mad. I was in Quebec, not with any natives who knows what is a "connexion" ;)

But 2 days later, I started to tell my experience, to a good friend first, of course !

Only 2 days. That means my fear, to seem as a fool, was weak, very small. Smaller than the experience of Love I had. I quickly thought that people could think I'm fool, or a liar, it was not so important. They wouldn't reject me, probably laugh at me for a while, and that's all that's it !

There are other experiences that change your convictions, and it is so difficult and demanding to tell them. Some people can never ever tell these kind of experiences.

It seems that God leads me in the "demanding" direction. I am then mostly unpopular than famous. But it is my path, and I choose to serve God, so I accept what is on my plate ;)

The fact that people can think you are a fool, and laugh at you, is not so hard to deal with, it is not as hard than being fled, agressed because this true experience is hard to listen. There is an experience that changed my conviction, so deeply, I couldn't tell until now. This experience happened 44 years ago, and I told it on this forum in another topic (The unknown bridge).

This experience is called "incest", and it changes your convictions for true, deeply, strongly, step by step, little by little.

My conviction was that I could trust my parents, as they were the only one who could take care for me, it was their duty. It seems so natural, so logical, that the opposit is difficult to believe. For me, and for the people who hear this kind of experience. Then everyone feels uncomfortable, probably also you now, reading this.

This experience can be thought as the experience of devi. But this is not the way I choose to see it. The shame would be too heavy, to strait, I won't be able to breath anymore. (Actually, it is what happened a few years ago, I started to feel like I was buried alive, that's why I've been searching for truth. I had no souvenirs for many many years ... a unconscious way to stay alive).

My choice is to see this experience as the experience of God. But it is so "horrible", onerous, unthinkable. It does such damages inside, in the physical and psychical domains, it destroys so deeply the first conviction we need to grow up, the base, the foundation of the values : Trust. Confidence. Faith.

That's why it is dificult to see the holy of it. The event is so hard to stand, because of betrayal, because of shame, because of anger, because of guilt, that people turn their head on the other side ...

Yes, Devil can be so uggly that we forget to take care of the humanity, within and without us. And yes, it should not allow us to be distracted from the path of worship of the Highest.

I try not to. But for this, it seems that I need you, I mean humans who will help me to change my conviction again, to turn it back to the point it was when I was a child, innocent, virgin/pure.

How can I live in the humanity, the world of humans, if I can never ever trust someone ? and worse, my ownself. Because it damaged my self-confidence too.

I can live with God, because I never ever felt judged there, but if I just live with God, which means in the spiritual domain only, it is to say that I would leave this body, this life ... like what HarjasKaur described : " I did not want my life anymore, so great was the Divine Glory. I wanted to just lose myself forever in the brilliant Light Presence of Divine Mother. Because I had nothing. I am nothing "

I accepted my incarnation, consciously, so I want to walk this path through humanity, with the "gifts" I received from life, from God.

And this experience is one of these gifts. It changed my conviction, and now that I am an adult, I try to change it again, into a conviction that woud provide me life, rather than death.

So, when I read this : Reconciliation is in the Light which hides at the heart of all things. Not separate temporary identities, but actual merging into each other, so that the suffering of the lowliest becomes my own. When I can truly cherish without division, like a Divine Mother and like a Divine Father I can help to heal the causes of suffering. Just as the Light loves us, we are supposed to be the Light of Love in this world of darkness and ignorance. That is our purpose. That is why we are here. We are supposed to give ourselves away as a sacrifice of love to bring comfort and protection and peace to all who need.

yes, when I read this, I think I understand the meaning, and I pray for that it can become true.

How ?

Because we go to the Temple each time we can ? Yes, also.

Because we listen to God and meditate each time we need ? Yes, also.

Because when there is someone who ask for help, someone who seems such a stranger to us, such a mystery, we answer : "Yes, come in "....isn't it what would say Gurmat, Buddha, Jesus ....?

It needs humility to ask for help. It needs courage to tell our truth. It needs Faith to knock the door of your heart. It needs Faith to open it.

I went to Temples from different faiths, philosophies, and I found comfort in prayers, I found hope again in listening the words which are talked, the promise of fraternity.

But when it is time to act, to make our words come true, concrete, we feel afraid, awkward, hesitating. Both of us. The one who could help will find any reason to be busy somewhere else, and the one who asked for help will apologize and comfort the others "Don't worry, I'm fine !", and will feel sorry because he/she annoyed you.

So, I think it is human to think about an experience that would show us, and convince us, how loved we are by the Divine. Yes, it is human and I wish every human could live this experience. It is such a wonderful experience.

I also wish us all to live this experience, through our human hearts : feeling loved by another human, the same as if he or she was God.

If we understand this, we will know that it can also be an experience that would change our conviction.

And the reason I tell my experience here, the "ugly" one, is to give us a chance to change and become Divine, step by step, in the daily issues. I do it for me, and as I do it for me, because I need you, I do it for you too.

There is not enough temples to go to, not enough priests to listen our truth, but there is enough humans to help each others.

you may be the Temple I need today, the priest I need today, don't you ?

So, "Can an experience change your conviction ?"

Humbly,

a human, just like you :)

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I believe direct experience can really change your conviction or make you less rigid and be more open and receptive about it - I was trying to bring up this topic the other day, for eg- let just say for example - biggest hurddle we have in the panth is anti dasam granth people dissecting destroying gurmat sidhant within. Our normal approach is been try to convince other party. However, in my view many who are anti dasam granth are just there doing it representing punjabi cultural- social boundaries. The idea is not to convince or marginalize them or make it us vs them but to  raise their consciousness(surti) to higher purpose/common aim such as meditation/naam simran/ seva/peace of mind so that we can connect with each other at human level. Once they are connected to much more common ground such as meditation/peace of mind/inner peace, they will be more lot more receptive and open to idea of dasam granth being integral part of panth as with open receptive one's surti (consciousness) possibility is endless- one's open receptive consciousness is free from traps of one's psychological make up conditioned mind of beliefs , conceptual ideas etc. Connect to them on higher frequency so one is not really hardcore anti dasam granth but at the neutral endless possibility- awe of mystery power- position.

Thats all needs to be done. In my view, don't agree with dasam granth? fine and dandy with me at this point and lets connect one another with on more common level, but slowly surely once one's surti is more open and receptive their anti dasam granth views which will change automatically to neutral position of endless possibility if not pro.  I guarantee their doubts will fall away once they are into deep meditation/self discovery not because all of sudden they have concentrate evidence but because on deep profound level doubts on everything usually falls away- you become doubtless and besides if one come across great gurbani quotes of dasam granth it can be experienced directly. I can speak for own self- the bit about achal morat anubhav parkash amitoj khijaie in jaap sahib bought very deep provoking/knowing/full deep insight to me which is very vivid clear, all the questions/doubts/hell even questioner disappear in meditation.

Edited by N30 S!NGH

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When you do seva, do good deeds, fall in love, your frequency heightens. 

 

God is everything everyone everywhere, but he realised himself to be Truth/ True love. And so living this unconditional love for him in Dukh and Sukh is vibrating in acceptance of hukam/ karam- vibrating at the high frequency of Truth.

 

That's the real experience- the Truth frequency, it is real, eternal bliss- not temporary worldly bliss.

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On 1/22/2010 at 4:59 PM, laalsingh said:

Gurmukho, please discuss. Would you change your convictions if you come across a miracle/experience or see a dream of devi/pir or whatever?

Isn't Gurmat bigger than miracles or some experiences?

Note:Some people do not believe in miracles or experiences, so they should stay away from this discussion.

My devi, pir and reality form closest to unconditional love is my mother. Seeing my mothers eyes radiating with happiness are everyday miracles for me. As first form of PrathaMA is MA.

When doing 3 prakahams around Guru Sahib, often before my eyes I feel presence of folks who have come across my path whom, my tiny mind has noticed (as we only use something like 2% of our actual brain capacity. Rest is unexplored). Folks like my mum, certain katha vachaks, certain yogis etc.

Life itself everyday is a Miracle - Saas Saas with each prana, simro pir ka naam.

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At the earlier stages, YES, we need some experience or event to help build a firm faith in the Lord.

With time and progress, you will begin to realise that there is only ONE love that is UN-conditional and all other worldly, relationship loves, mother-daughter-brother-sister -husband-wife...etc  can come to an end.  This means that they are Conditional..  Gurbani tells us this, especially Guru Tegh Bahadur's salok mehalla 9.

The Only True and UN-conditional love that we are all unknowingly and sub-consciously searching for is the Eko SATCH (One TRUTH)

 

BTW.. I'm back after a busy outdoor summer schedule that I like doing every year. I shall try log on more often now and can start my simran indoors again as soon as weather cools down.

 

 

 

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On 1/22/2010 at 4:59 PM, laalsingh said:

Gurmukho, please discuss. Would you change your convictions if you come across a miracle/experience or see a dream of devi/pir or whatever?

Isn't Gurmat bigger than miracles or some experiences?

Note:Some people do not believe in miracles or experiences, so they should stay away from this discussion.

Unless your convictions are only from your parents (upbringing) and that alone, then yes, of course convictions can change.

I presume you would have to surmise that your guru (the first one) changed his conviction due to some experience or other.  That is to say, if you are a Sikh, and Sikhism being a fairly new religion, then your answer should already be there.

 

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