Jump to content
ds123

Manglacharan

Recommended Posts

I've seen many pictures of old saroops of Guru Granth Sahib where the manglacharan (Ik Oankar Satgurprasad) appears before the raag. A lot of the saroops on http://www.ragmalagurbanihai.info/ have the mangal before raag.

I was watching a video on youtube and came along this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlGxTZgAYSo

Near the end of the video, Prof Surinder Singh claims that we've changed the manglacharan. Is this true?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've looked at more saroops on punjab digital library website and many of the saroops have the mangal after the raag. There seems to be many inconsistencies within some saroops. Some saroops have both variations of mangals (before raag and after raag). The more I research, the more confusing it gets.

Edited by ds123

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SGPC was going to fix this issue. However, as always, sant babas made a big issue saying oh they are doing adlaa badlee in Gurbani

Admin note: Empty blank statements against knights of the panth won't be tolerated.

The reason why some places have raag before and some places after is due to copying.

In th old times, mangal was written on the right and was writen a bit above the raag which was written on the left. When reading, mangal was to be read before the raag because it was to be written a bit above on the right.

However, over time, scribes wrote some mangals after the raag and some before. This caused this inconsistency. Sant Samaj likes to keep things the way they are, doesn't matter if they are wrong or right so they didn't allow SGPC to fix this issue.

This is how things were written in the past.

Raag Assa Mahala 1 1 Oaknar Satgur Parsaad

writers thought

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we look at sukhmani sahib as written nowadays:

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ 5 ॥

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

It doesn't make sense to say mangal after salok because the mangal is not part of the salok. The salok is:

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

not ik oankar satgurprasaad

...can more members offer their opinions

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way it is printed is correct, and carried over from the birs scribed by Bhai Mani Singh Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji - i.e. exactly the same as the Damdami Bir, which was given gur-gaddi.

The Sant Samaj which got together to stop any changes was not like the one we have today. It was made up of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale, Sant Isher Singh Ji Rarewale, among other Mahapursh. They knew what they were doing.

sant%20samaj%202.jpg

Edited by Matheen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we look at sukhmani sahib as written nowadays:

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ 5 ॥

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

It doesn't make sense to say mangal after salok because the mangal is not part of the salok. The salok is:

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

not ik oankar satgurprasaad

...can more members offer their opinions

It doesn't have to make sense. Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die!

Simple really.... I just leave the intelectual stuff to sadhs/sants and just follow orders.

Idiot-proof dharma, just dont be like old be old, meddling grannies.

Edited by jattboot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I am of the view that Manglacharan should come first. Look at this picture:

1083762803_52dc42f550.jpg

This is a picture of Sukhmani Sahib from a Gutka that belonged to Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee(6th Guru) whose father (5th guru) wrote down Sri Sukhmani Sahib Jee. As you can see it says:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ 5 ॥

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

Where as the modern Gutkas the Manglacharan is written like this:

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮਃ 5 ॥

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਏ ਨਮਹ ॥1॥

Edited by Mithar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The way it is printed is correct, and carried over from the birs scribed by Bhai Mani Singh Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji - i.e. exactly the same as the Dambami Bir, which was given gur-gaddi."

Matheen, please provide proof of this i.e. photos or academic references.

Ta.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matheen, please provide proof of this i.e. photos or academic references.

References? How about the Bhramgyanis in the photo above? Alternatively, visit Hazur Sahib and ask to see the oldest saroop they have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

References? How about the Bhramgyanis in the photo above? Alternatively, visit Hazur Sahib and ask to see the oldest saroop they have.

Have you seen the sroops yourself? What about Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee's Gutka? Who can be higher than Guru Jee?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you seen the sroops yourself?

No, but have seen photos by people I know. How do we know whose Gutka Sahib that is?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, but have seen photos by people I know. How do we know whose Gutka Sahib that is?

That Gutka according to Sikh tradition is of Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee. Here is a link also mentioning this:

http://www.info-sikh.com/PageRelH6.html

Do you have some photos you can post. I'm open minded about this as long as there is solid evidence to validate a claim. Simply by saying Brahmgianis beleive in this is not evidence enough when we have evidence of Guru Sahib to back up the claim that Manglacharans should come first.

Edited by Mithar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....when we have evidence of Guru Sahib to back up the claim that Manglacharans should come first.

The saroops by Baba Deep Singh Ji and Bhai Mani Singh Ji are identical to the Damdami bir. Quite a few of these saroops still exist - at Hazur Sahib, Damdama Sahib, Patna Sahib, Gurudwara Patshahi 6 in Punjab, etc. You're basing everything on one Gutka Sahib.

edit: should have mentioned earlier that not all Banis are arranged in the same way - e.g. in the Vaars, the mangal comes before everything else. So when comparing old Saroops, make sure you compare like for like.

Edited by Matheen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matheen, if you have any photographic evidence regarding where the above mentioned Saroops place manglacharan then please share. It's not good sense to accept all things blindly, we should not always pull the Mahapurkh card, esp when evidence is more likely to convince the masses and should be readily available.

Edited by shaheediyan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...