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Videos Of Dasam Granth Debate At Toronto

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Above link is broken.

Try this: http://news.panthic.org/panthic_tube.php

The young Singhs debated very well, without interruptions and shouting. From the debate, it is clear Singhsabha canada is behind all the anti Dasam Granth parchar. Any idea where they get funding from and why haven't they been burned down yet?

It was shocking to hear Jeonwala speak against Nitnem Banis, Amrit etc and the way he was holding the pothi like a normal book was disturbing too.

Edited by Matheen

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The Kanjar kavta i think he called it, was uncalled for and no need for at all, i have to say these tapoban singhs have done a good job with this debate and an earlier one they did to.

As for burning them down there is no need i belive Singhs like those can burn them down in debate.

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Debate was alright. Sukhbir Singh didn't answer many questions and changed topic when he was asked some tough questions. Jeonwala was really bad with that laindee thing. I am not sure if either could read that sanskrit granth. Sukhbir also failed to do arths of CP quotes. Ending of debate was bad as it got personal.

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I think it's b/c the Dasam Granth faultline, while initially created by Bhasauria, has only recently begun to be widened. The panth has realised the need to vigorously combat this before it becomes a permanent divide. Not to mention the fact that the characters involved in promoting this divide are all shady beyond belief and many are clearly communist/ govt agents.

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Try this: http://news.panthic.org/panthic_tube.php

The young Singhs debated very well, without interruptions and shouting. From the debate, it is clear Singhsabha canada is behind all the anti Dasam Granth parchar. Any idea where they get funding from and why haven't they been burned down yet?

It was shocking to hear Jeonwala speak against Nitnem Banis, Amrit etc and the way he was holding the pothi like a normal book was disturbing too.

Phony singh sabha has no office, no phone number.They are only existing on web.

Sukhbir singh did indicate their source of support i.e. anti sikh forces.

These people do not believe in God and that is why they do not accord respect to scriptures.

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http://www.panthic.org/articles/5216

TORONTO KALA-AFGHANI JEONVALA WASHED-OUT IN DEBATE WITH PANTHIC SINGHS

PANTHIC.ORG | Published on February 10, 2010

Courtesy: Sur Sagar TV, Toronto

Toronto, Canada - A loud and boisterous debate took place last weekend in Toronto between Panthic Singhs and an anti-Dasam Granth nindak, Gurcharan Brar Jeonvala. As predicted, the Panthic Singhs soundly refuted every point Jeonvala raised and in turn presented many irrefutable proofs in support of the authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth.

Jeonvala, the mind behind numerous anti-Panthic articles and websites originating from Toronto, had been regularly challenging supporters of Sri Dasam Granth to debate with him, and thus had become the de-facto spokesperson for the local Kala-Afghani lobby.

Whereas Jeonvala represented the anti-Panthic lobby, Bhai Sukhbir Singh and Bhai Sukhmander Singh were backed by pro-Panthic organizations, such as the Akhand Kirtan Jatha (Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib), DamDami Taksal, Shahbaaz Khalsa to bring forth the Panthic viewpoint.

The debate was aired on Sur Sagar TV’s ‘Bhakhday Maslay” weekly show hosted by Ravinder Singh Pannu. Sur Sagar TV is Toronto areas’ oldest and longest running Punjabi TV channel and is widely watched by the local Punjabi population.

Bhai Sukhbir Singh began the debate by explaining the history surrounding Sri Dasam Granth and the historical texts which support it including the writings of Bhai Jaita or Bhai Jeevan Singh, Bansavalinama P: 10 by Kesar Singh Chhiber and Guru Kian Sakhian by Sarup Singh Kaushish. Bhai Sukhbir Singh further established that no Sikh scholar including Bhai Kanh Singh Nabha, Gyani Dit Singh or Prof. Sahib Singh ever opposed Dasam Granth. Furthermore, and most importantly Dasam Granth is an inseparable part of the Nitnem and Ardas which are recited daily by Sikhs.

In an attempt to prove his point, Jeonvala began to quote some historical texts out of context and distort history but was cut off by the host of the show Mr. Pannu, for his intentional misinterpretations.

English words in Sri Dasam Granth?

When asked to present any proof to support his allegation that Sri Dasam Granth was not the work of Sri Guru Gobind Singh, Jeonvala attempted to quote verses which he stated contained English words such as ‘near’ and ‘lady’. The Panthic Singhs left Jeonvala without any answer when they showed him that the word “lady” was in fact “layndee” which means coward and is not an English word in any way.

Further, when the same methodology is used on the bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the Singhs showed that several words were common in English and Punjabi such as the word “day”. The debate took a humorous turn when Jeonvala was reduced to repeating obscenities when he could not explain the tuk :

ਦੇਇ ਕਿਵਾੜ ਅਨਿਕ ਪੜਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਪਰ ਦਾਰਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਫਾਕੈ ॥ (ਰਾਗ ਸੋਰਠਿ, ਅੰਗ: ੬੧੬)

Jaap Sahib from Shiv Puraan?

Jeonvala’s ignorant arguments took another twisted turn when he attempted to state that contents of Sri Dasam Granth were copied from Shiv Puraan and Markande Puraan. When asked to substantiate this allegation, he was unable to do so and could only state that one line of Shiv Puraan reads “Kaal Kaal” which he ridiculously suggested was proof that Sri Jaap Sahib was copied from, drawing laughter from the Panthic Singhs and even the studio members. Intrestingly, not too long ago, another pro-Kala-Afghani, Inder Ghagga, had claimed that Jaap Sahib was from Markande Puraan, like Jeonvala he too failed to provide any evidence backing this preposterous claim.

When none of Jeonvala ’s arguments were successful, he resorted to plain name calling, slandering Sri Dasam Bani as “kanjar kavita”, resulting in demands for him to retract his statement by the host Mr. Pannu. Having no other choice, Jeonvala meekly agreed to retract his statement.

Some of the key points made by the Panthic Singhs in the debate included:

* Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, including : Bachittar Natak Granth, Chabees Avtar Granth, and CharitroPakhyian Granth.

* Sri Dasam Granth Sahib was also known as Dasam Patshah Ji Ka Granth, and was standardized for off-set printing in the late 1800s by the Panth.

* Amrit and Nitnem Banis are documented by eye-accounts written in the Bhatt Vahees, and Bhai Jaita Ji (Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji) writes his eye-witness account as:

ਪਾਂਚ ਕਕਾਰ ਸੰਪੂਰਣ ਦੇਖਿ ਕੈ

ਯਾਚਕ ਸਿਖਹਿ ਸੰਮੁਖ ਬੈਠੀਜੈ।

ਜਲੋ ਬਤਾਸੇ ਲੋਹ ਪਾਤਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਡਾਰਿ ਕੈ

ਛਹਿ ਸਿਖ ਆਸਨ ਬੀਰ ਲਵੀਜੈ।

ਹਾਥ ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਸਿੰਘ ਖੰਡੇ ਕਉ ਲੇਕਰ

ਜਲੋ ਪਤਾਸੇ ਕਉ ਖੂਬ ਮਿਲੀਜੈ।

ਜਪੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੰਗ ਤਿਹ ਸਿਖ

ਪਾਤਰਿ ਦੂਸਰ ਹਾਥ ਧੀਰਜੈ।੧੧੨।

ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪੁ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਚੌਪਈ ਅਨੰਦ ਕੋ

ਪਾਠ ਸੋਂ ਪਾਹੁਲ ਤਿਆਰ ਕਰੀਜੈ।

ਪਾਂਓ ਚੁਲੇ ਮੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸੁ ਯਾਜਕ

ਏਤ ਜੀ ਨੇਤਰ ਕੇਸ ਪਵੀਜੈ।੧੧੩॥

* Bhai Mani Singh Ji's letter to Mata Sundari Ji regarding the compilation of Sri Dasam Granth is authentic, and metals nibs did exist in India during that time. It was also pointed out that the style of writing by Bhai Mani Singh Ji was similar to the style used by Guru Har Rai Sahib.

* It was also pointed that the real intention of people doubting Sri Dasam Granth is to reject the concept of Amrit-Sanchar (Khanday-ki-Pahul) and thus eliminate AmritDharis from the Panth and this is exactly in line with the Indian Government's long term plan to marginalize and eliminate Sikhism from India. They referenced the Baat Cheet in the Indian Army Gazette No. 153, 1984 published stated:

“...Amritdharis, who are dangerous people and pledged to commit murders, arson and acts of terrorism, should immediately be brought the notice of authorities. These people might appear harmless from outside but they are basically committed to terrorism...”

* Sri Dasam Granth condemns the worship of devi devtas. The RSS would never accept such a Granth that exposed this truth to the world. In actuality, it is the RSS and Indian Government agencies who want the Sikhs to condemn Sri Dasam Granth, and these detractors are working at their behest.

The Panthic Singhs asked Jeonvala whether he would classify Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Mani Singh, Sirdar Kapur Singh IAS, Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbar, Bhai Anokh Singh Babbar RSS agents? As predicted, Jeonvala again failed to answer the query put forth by the Singhs.

Whisked away to safety

It is obvious that the disgraced Jeonvala could not keep his composure throughout the debate and failed to have a sensible discussion with the other participants. It was reported that due to his outbursts against Sri Dasam Granth, an irate group of Sikhs had arrived outside the TV studios near the end of the debate. Fearing for his safety, Jeonvala was escorted out to a vehicle by the studio management, and whisked away quickly out of sight.

For the Kala-Afghani lobby, Toronto’s truck-driver ‘scholar’ Jeonvala had now become a liability instead an asset.

Edited by singh2

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Jeowala like most Kala Afghanists is just full of shit. The Panthic Singhs he was debating with did a great job. Jeowala, Darshan Ragi and Ghagha are considered the great intellectual lights of the Kala Afghanist movement and they have all lost to Panthic Singhs in debates.

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Bhai Mani Singh Ji's letter to Mata Sundari Ji regarding the compilation of Sri Dasam Granth is authentic, and metals nibs did exist in India during that time. It was also pointed out that the style of writing by Bhai Mani Singh Ji was similar to the style used by Guru Har Rai Sahib.

They are illeterate persons who ahev no knowledge of world affairs.

It is worth to mention that existence of nib was established in 79 AD when metallic nib( copper) was found in ruins of Pompey.Use of nibs was done extensively in Egypt in 858 AD.

Nib was brought to India by Portuguese who had their colony in Goa during Guru sahib's times.

Edited by singh2

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I just finished watching the full debate.

Here are few unbias observations:

- I really wish debate was bit more controlled by moderator, statements that invoke personal attacks by sukhbir singh was uncalled for. Similiarly, bold statement by jeonvala calling sri dasam granth - kanjar kavita should be condemned on all levels. Ultimately, as far as this veechar goes in terms of keeping civil and gursikh freindly tone, this debate has failed to provide that at times they were highly emotionally carried away especially at the last bit of the video- going back and forth with unproven accusations. Singhs who were involved in this discussion should take inspiration from classic calm veechar discussion kulbir singh (tapoban) had with inderjit ghagga in future.

- We cannot claim this discussion as ultimate dasam granth vichar. But this discussion is most welcoming as next time one wants to debate sri dasam granth sahib from historical and methodology context, they can refer to this discussion as its already been discussed so debaters can move on. I think title of this debate should be - Sri Dasam granth discussion from historical and methodological context.

- Singhs from tapoban were highly knowledgeable with history of sri dasam granth sahib and various rehitnamas which totally debunked historical doubts propagated by jeonwala and his crews.

- Only way one can move forward on veechar of jaap sahib which was discussed is to first discuss the basics of nirgun and sargun of vahiguroo within in jaap sahib. Unfortunately, that was not discussed by tapoban singhs. If this would have happened, they would have cleared the doubts jeonwala and his party over jaap sahib.

- Its expected that jeonvala and his crews does not beleive in sri dasam granth sahib because they are highly influenced by bhausaria mindset but to see- singh from tapoban saying- sri dasam granth sahib is guru gobind singh ji bani but not *GURU* its disheartning as they failed to realize the tat gyan- behind jaap sahib, akaal ustat, chaaupi sahib in sri dasam granth sahib is same in sri guru granth sahib and from the same nanak jot. But they are in right direction just need little bit research.

- Both parties were not familiar with languages which sri dasam granth ji is written in, which makes this veechar on vikhiyan or vikyaran sri dasam granth sahib compositions difficult. I also wanted to point out, some of arths from sri dasam granth(exception of treh charitar) tapoban singhs shared are debatable as there are significant difference of opnions within sikh jathas and samparda's who beleive in sri dasam granth.

I ll add more observation as i will re-watch this debate.

At the end, I just wanted to say this veechar was much needed but its just tip of an iceberg, as i would just say- one pakh(historical and methodlogy) context of sri dasam granth is discussed. I cannot wait for the day, where debate over sri dasam granth sahib are much controlled by moderators where each composition of sri dasam granth is discussed one by one regardless of how long it takes to ensure there is no off-topics- discussing anything and everything. I would even dedicate discussion on sri dasam granth for whole month or two. Discussion on sri dasam granth cannot be wrapped by 2 hr live talk show. There should be smagaam on this which should last months and privately recorded this will ensure we are actually debating contents of sri dasam granth sahib as opposed to unfortunate krodh bubble being brusted at the end.

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Must say, I love it. Sikhs doing vichaar without paghs flying, bloody noses and kirpans being brandished.

I pray this is a precendent for the future.

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[

ts expected that jeonvala and his crews does not beleive in sri dasam granth sahib because they are highly influenced by bhausaria mindset but to see-

Bhasauria did not condemn Jaap sahib , akal ustat and bachitra natak.These people condemn everything.

They are agents of anti sikh forecs.I will not even call them sikhs.At best they are non believers.

Edited by singh2

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Though he made jeonawala seem like a idiot but all his antics were not as bad as the kanjar kavta remark.

As for it being on par with bani etc.. most normal sikhs will say nothing can be on par with Guru Granth Sahib.

I personaly have no problem with people thinknig equal parkash is okay and others that think it is wrong.

But far as i know Guru Gaddi was given to Guru Granth Sahib and not Dasam Granth. So if someone could maybe explain why it should be parkashed equal share more info on why when Guru Granth Sahib was given Guru Gaddi.

Now if Tapoban is debating you are always going to get the AKJ view point though i dont always agree with there views, at least they are trying to debate. They seem like the coolest Singhs out there in the west in my opinion who are dedicated in learning history and doing veechar.

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Jeonwala is a rogue character. his intention was not to debate but further his propaganda against Dasam granth. He never stuck to one point.He had come thee to get wider audience for propaganda purpose.

Such people do need such harsh responses.Singhs were cool but responded accordingly to his mischief.They have taken the initiative and tamed the bull.They need our appreciation.

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N30!

I agree.

DG discussion can't be held in a day or even 2 hours. It is a huge granth. Ending was really bad. No swords but ending wasn't nice either. Inder Singh Ghagga and Kulbir debate was cool and calm. Sukhbir kept making allegations instead of answering. That isn't a way to debate properly. It was bad to show drama in the end to non Sikhs who were watching.

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Where has Khalsa Fauj disappeared to?

I thought these naastiks were expert debaters who had undeniable facts and the rest of us were the stupid ones?

Hopefully more of these debates happen in the future so it gives a chance for Panthic Singhs to expose these pseudo-'scholars' on a regular basis.

Edited by GillAUS

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Thing is Inder Singh, seeing as those Tapoban Singhs seemed to have the debate firmly under control, they never needed to start all that "truck driver" stuff as well as the caustic remarks they made repeatedly. It just cheapened them.

Left to his own devices Jeonawala is perfectly capable of making a fool of himself. In the end he is still a budhera and it just looks off key for a jawan to be aggresively speaking to him like that. Even if he is chatting crap. Better to demolish his arguments than insult his occupation etc.

The 'evidence' of Jaap Sahib coming from Shiv Purana he (Jeonawala) gave was absolutely mad. The debate still had the tendency to descend into a shouting match. I think if the presenter actually stood between the parties this could've been minimised perhaps.

If this is indicative of the quality of information given on the anti-DG side then I think this debate may not last too long. The way certain people were going on I was expecting them to produce chunks of Jaap Sahib nearly verbatim from their 'original' source.

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I didn't enjoy the debate much because it was very unorganized but still I appreciate their efforts. I believe that debates should be on few points not on the whole Sri Dasam Granth Sahib in one session. I would suggest next time they ask "challenger" party to send their two or three points only. The party who is there to defend should be informed of these points, so they can be well prepared.

Jeoanwala should have been asked to discuss two to three major points on this live debate, as that would have not lead to Micky Mouse match on the live T.V. Next time, the debates should be divided in few small segments and all topics for the debates should be clear and written before the live debate.

I personally like the approach of written debates through e-mail, so parties involved should consider that part as well.

http://www.truthtree.com/debates.shtml

How to debate Click Here

Edited by bhooliya

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i think i agree with you bhooliya. it shud be a point raised by anti dasam granth people and then answer from pro dasam granth guys.

what are the common points raised by the anti dasam granth folk maybe khalsa fauj can post some.

is there any website answering there points?

the thing with live debates is that sometimes you may not have proof at hand or cant research or answer a point made on the spot. Thats were forums like these come in where you can research and then reply to a point.

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Please next time break debate in segments. For example, Charitropakhyan, Krishanaavtar etc... Discuss one topic and ask challenger party to send in their concerns in writing before the live debate. The written points of concern should be read before the debate and host should ensure that both parties stick to them. It will be waste of time, if you decide topics of discussion on the live T.V.

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dal singh 101

You can debate with a person who is genuine at heart and sincere.You cann't debate with a thug whose motive is to draw propaganda advantage.

You might have seen Jeonwala was not sticking to one subject .He was hopping from hell to heaven.He starts with one point and then jumps to four other points.The intention was not to concentrate on one subject and resolve that.The motive was to cause confusion.

In light of this such comment was appropriate.

There are some points that need to be watched carefully in this debate.

1) Jeonwala said why there is no mention of Amrit sanchar of 1699 in Dasam Granth.Per him since there is no mention of Amrit sanchar in Dasam Granth it is not written by Guru Sahib.That shows he has not read it even.

He is simply doing propaganda as tutored by others.Sukhbir was justified to unmask this.

2) Jeonwala said that Jaap shaib is from Shiv Purana.He could not show that in Shiv Purana. That shows he does not believe in Banis of amrit sanchar.He is doing propaganda.

3) There is a word landy that comes in Dasam Granth.These self made scholars make it lady and say that since English is mentioned in Dasam granth it is written by Britishers. In fact it is a sanskrit word and it means coward.Jeonwala is changing words on his own for propaganda sake to mislead people.

4) Jeonwala had been propagating that Chandi charitra is a copy of markandey purana.When asked to show where is shabad " Deh siva bar mohe hain-" in the puranas he drew blank.

5) Joenwal says there is no proof that dasam banis were read during amrit sanchar of 1699.When he is given reference of Bhai Jaita ji's Granth and Bhat vahis he keeps quiet. He had no answer and this shows how misled he is.

6)Jeonwala failed to grasp the concept of metaphors used extensively in dasam Granth as he did not understand terms used for God.When singhs pointed that to him.He just kept quiet.

Edited by singh2

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Thing is Inder Singh, seeing as those Tapoban Singhs seemed to have the debate firmly under control, they never needed to start all that "truck driver" stuff as well as the caustic remarks they made repeatedly. It just cheapened them.

Left to his own devices Jeonawala is perfectly capable of making a fool of himself. In the end he is still a budhera and it just looks off key for a jawan to be aggresively speaking to him like that. Even if he is chatting crap. Better to demolish his arguments than insult his occupation etc.

I think that the Singhs became very agitated and angry when Jeeowala referred to the Dasam Granth as Kanjar Bani. Before that the Singhs kept their cool. For many Singhs Sri Dasam Granth's bani is as important as Bani of SGGSJ, and insulting bani in front of a Singh is like worse than insulting ones parents. For us, we worship Gurbani, so it is very hard to keep your anger in control when it is called "Kanjar Bani".

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6)Jeonwala failed to grasp the concept of metaphors used extensively in dasam Granth as he did not understand terms used for God.When singhs pointed that to him.He just kept quiet.

lol there are no words in gurbani that mean "God". If Gurus used the abrahamic term "God" in gurbani then they would easily be able to prove any bani was written by Britishers or Christians

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lol there are no words in gurbani that mean "God". If Gurus used the abrahamic term "God" in gurbani then they would easily be able to prove any bani was written by Britishers or Christians

I think people use the term "God" for lack of a better word in English. Singh2 is probably one of the most knowledgeable Singhs out there when it comes to the topic of Sri Dasam Granth Jee. I've even put a quote of his on my signature at the bottom.

Edited by Mithar

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