tonyhp32 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) One who sings sufi music is not necessarily a Sufi himself. So expecting sufi type qualities from a man who is not sufi but happens to sings sufi music is too much to ask for from that man. I mean, Sartaj is an entertainer and professor in Sufi music but let us not confuse him for being a real sufi. The work he is doing for Punjabi music is good work. Music itself has a huge influence on culture. Finally we have a singer from east Punjab who is making a positive contribution to Punjabi culture. I would gladly pay $100 to listen to Sirtaj than the trashy type of Punjabi singers of great fame we have who have a negative influence on Punjabi culture. I have to agree with Chatanga on this one. Either you are a Sufi and you follow the lifestyle or you are just someone making money as an entertainer. His claims to be following a tradition are patently false because if he was then he would be wandering about living off alms rather than living with his wife and getting paid to play concerts. Same as Chatanga, I never understood the lure of Sufi music which apart from half a dozen good songs is incredibly dull and sterile. To those who are fans of sufi music because it's the flavour of the month, I dare you to read the Kalams of the various sufis such as Waris Shah, Bulleh Shah and Shah Hussein and not fall asleep after five minutes. http://www.apnaorg.com/books/g-booklist.shtml Edited March 9, 2011 by tonyhp32 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) One who sings sufi music is not necessarily a Sufi himself. So expecting sufi type qualities from a man who is not sufi but happens to sings sufi music is too much to ask for from that man. could we excuse our kirtanis/dhadhis who drink alcohol as well then? Dont get me wrong, i dont hate sufis or anything, i just beleive that its a lower form of worship than kirtan. a sufi on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tJ6LCUBO5I Edited March 10, 2011 by chatanga1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 could we excuse our kirtanis/dhadhis who drink alcohol as well then? Dont get me wrong, i dont hate sufis or anything, i just beleive that its a lower form of worship than kirtan. a sufi on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tJ6LCUBO5I I understand what you and Tony Jee are coming from. But, the reason why I don't have a problem with Sirtaj is because Sirtaj represents a new wave of Punjabi music which breaks off from the Punjabi music we have been hearing for the last 25 years or so in which the main topic of the song is Sharaab, dance and women not to mention the music videos in which the girls dance like half dressed Kanjaris from Heera Mandi. I would rather see Punjabi people listening to Sirtaj than those trashy Punjabi singers we are usually accustomed to. And I agree with you that compared to Gurbani Kirtan all other music is nothing. But if the average Punjabi person must listen to Punjabi music for whatever reason, then wouldn't it be better for that person to listen to Sufi music rather then the regular trashy music coming out of east Punjab? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 But if the average Punjabi person must listen to Punjabi music for whatever reason, then wouldn't it be better for that person to listen to Sufi music rather then the regular trashy music coming out of east Punjab? Yes it would be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 But if the average Punjabi person must listen to Punjabi music for whatever reason, then wouldn't it be better for that person to listen to Sufi music rather then the regular trashy music coming out of east Punjab? Here, here! I second that! But that being said, I still think Panjabi music can be a very useful tool when used to transmit shared positive cultural values (not drinking, jaat paat and miscellaneous gundh mundh that passes off as Panjabi culture these days) and bring about discussions of issues pertinent to the community (especially in the face of our own people having a habit of constantly sweeping stuff under the carpet). Also, I'll tell you guys straight up, Panjabi music helped me significantly develop my language skills (especially in the area of vocabulary) growing up. When I think about it, you can see a microcosm of what has happened to Panjabi music in Hip Hop, where there was a time (late 80s/early 90s) when it had depth and covered various socio-economic topics such as racism, police brutality and wider political issues. It was also used to bolster a positive 'Afrocentric' culture and identity. Then it went all gundh mundh and dwindled down stuff like 'move b1tch, get out the way, get out the way b1tch, get out the way!" Maybe we have to honestly ask ourselves the uncomfortable questions of whether Panjabis are influenced by the gandh mundh in modern Panjabi music, or whether the music in reality just reflects already existing gundh mundh in the community that we usually stay quiet about? No doubt the musical references to it may help 'normalise' it, but is it really accurate to say that it is causal? Example: Panjabis have been getting pissed up for ages - the music just celebrated it. I do love some of Sartaaj's music and pray he can keep quality high and resist the temptation to 'flood' the market, now he knows some of us like his stuff, like Lembher Hussainpuri did. His music still helps me learn new words and ideas I wouldn't really come across otherwise. It TRULY keeps me closer to my culture at a time when I see our people turning their back on it in what appears to be droves? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbreakable Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 That's true. BUT, considering the level of quality of singers we have today in east(Indian) Punjab, he is still too good to be true. His type of singing and the content of his lyrics is refreshing to hear even if it is copied. His songs are songs which a Punjabi man can hear with his sister, mother and daughter and not feel ashamed because today in Punjab most Punjabi singers sing such songs which a man cannot hear with women of his family. Even the music videos of Punjabi songs are shameless. So Sirtaj is still good and we need to support him. I believe had he not advertised himself as a so called sufi singer, tied his turban like he does, etc. He would not have been noticed that much. Oh and not forgetting the shyte loads of photographs he has taken with Gurdas Maan to advertise himself. My cousin back in India was at the Taj Hotel where he was married and he said when Gurdas Maan came to the wedding reception, he pulled out a chair and sat him on the stage where he was sitting with his wife. He was holding his hand more than his wives. lol. There are songs by Gurdas Maan, Hans Raj Hans, Babbu Maan (especiallu his new material) and plenty of other singers, etc which are family oriented. Sartaj is trying to be another Gurdas Maan, who writes and sings his own songs. He has failed at that big time. Problem with Panjab is Miss Pooja fever and rightly so, she is only singing what is happening in Punjab. Kudos to her for cashing in. Anybody in her shoes would do the same. I believe Sartaj had won an Sufi award in Dubai, which they are now thinking of taking back. i dont really like what hes doing too much. if he is a sufi and wants to help people connect to god, then charging £50 a head for a concert isnt the way to go. I cant really see the attraction in sufi mat myslef, not when compared to Gurbani. I used to listen to Sufi music, but when i started to listen to proper raag kirtan, i just couldnt get into listening to sufi stuff again. There was a rumour flying around that Sartaj wanted to charge what Gurdas Maan charges. When I saw his ticket prices it put me off, £25, £30 and £50. I was like, hold on, this guy isn't even that big. Now, if you see Gurdas Maan's prices, they have doubled, starting at nearly £80 a ticket going upto £200 at the Royal Albert Hall. This was a message to Sartaj, basically saying you can't compete with Mr Maan. Thing with Panjabi folk music is that it usually does follow generic lyrical, rhythmic patterns/structures which are modified by subsequent people. The jugni verses are a clear example. So even if he did do what is being implied, is it really that unusual? Not am implication. Its proven. It is a fact. He was fined and ordered to pay the original poet, past, present and future sales. One who sings sufi music is not necessarily a Sufi himself. So expecting sufi type qualities from a man who is not sufi but happens to sings sufi music is too much to ask for from that man. I mean, Sartaj is an entertainer and professor in Sufi music but let us not confuse him for being a real sufi. The work he is doing for Punjabi music is good work. Music itself has a huge influence on culture. Finally we have a singer from east Punjab who is making a positive contribution to Punjabi culture. I would gladly pay $100 to listen to Sirtaj than the trashy type of Punjabi singers of great fame we have who have a negative influence on Punjabi culture. He isn't a professor. He is a normal teacher. I think there is a difference between a professor in the west than in India. Here (England), you only become a Dr. after you do a PhD (am I right??), and the after writing a dozen or so papers and been accepted by your peers, you then become a recognised professor. In India, students often call teachers, Sir or Professor Ji. He is a theif, no positive contribution there. I understand what you and Tony Jee are coming from. But, the reason why I don't have a problem with Sirtaj is because Sirtaj represents a new wave of Punjabi music which breaks off from the Punjabi music we have been hearing for the last 25 years or so in which the main topic of the song is Sharaab, dance and women not to mention the music videos in which the girls dance like half dressed Kanjaris from Heera Mandi. I would rather see Punjabi people listening to Sirtaj than those trashy Punjabi singers we are usually accustomed to. And I agree with you that compared to Gurbani Kirtan all other music is nothing. But if the average Punjabi person must listen to Punjabi music for whatever reason, then wouldn't it be better for that person to listen to Sufi music rather then the regular trashy music coming out of east Punjab? You are wrong. He doesn't represent a new wave of Panjabi Music in my eyes. I have been listening to Panjabi songs for a long time. I have collections both from Indian Panjab and Pakistan Panjab. Trust me, he is nothing new. I believe, if you take his turban away and his fancy dress. Nobody will notice him much. He is selling a complete image. Its called Brand Recognition. When we think "challa", we think Gurdas Maan. His look is his trade mark. His style of singing is not new. My favourite singer is Hans Raj Hans, I don't think there is anybody in the Panjab who can compete with his voice. Thats my opinion anyway. Anybody remember Patta Patta Singha Da Varai? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 I believe had he not advertised himself as a so called sufi singer, tied his turban like he does, etc. He would not have been noticed that much. Oh and not forgetting the shyte loads of photographs he has taken with Gurdas Maan to advertise himself. My cousin back in India was at the Taj Hotel where he was married and he said when Gurdas Maan came to the wedding reception, he pulled out a chair and sat him on the stage where he was sitting with his wife. He was holding his hand more than his wives. lol. There are songs by Gurdas Maan, Hans Raj Hans, Babbu Maan (especiallu his new material) and plenty of other singers, etc which are family oriented. Sartaj is trying to be another Gurdas Maan, who writes and sings his own songs. He has failed at that big time. Problem with Panjab is Miss Pooja fever and rightly so, she is only singing what is happening in Punjab. Kudos to her for cashing in. Anybody in her shoes would do the same. I believe Sartaj had won an Sufi award in Dubai, which they are now thinking of taking back. There was a rumour flying around that Sartaj wanted to charge what Gurdas Maan charges. When I saw his ticket prices it put me off, £25, £30 and £50. I was like, hold on, this guy isn't even that big. Now, if you see Gurdas Maan's prices, they have doubled, starting at nearly £80 a ticket going upto £200 at the Royal Albert Hall. This was a message to Sartaj, basically saying you can't compete with Mr Maan. Not am implication. Its proven. It is a fact. He was fined and ordered to pay the original poet, past, present and future sales. He isn't a professor. He is a normal teacher. I think there is a difference between a professor in the west than in India. Here (England), you only become a Dr. after you do a PhD (am I right??), and the after writing a dozen or so papers and been accepted by your peers, you then become a recognised professor. In India, students often call teachers, Sir or Professor Ji. He is a theif, no positive contribution there. You are wrong. He doesn't represent a new wave of Panjabi Music in my eyes. I have been listening to Panjabi songs for a long time. I have collections both from Indian Panjab and Pakistan Panjab. Trust me, he is nothing new. I believe, if you take his turban away and his fancy dress. Nobody will notice him much. He is selling a complete image. Its called Brand Recognition. When we think "challa", we think Gurdas Maan. His look is his trade mark. His style of singing is not new. My favourite singer is Hans Raj Hans, I don't think there is anybody in the Panjab who can compete with his voice. Thats my opinion anyway. Anybody remember Patta Patta Singha Da Varai? He has done a phd in Sufi Music and teaches in Punjabi University Chandigarh which in Punjab at least is considered a good university, he has also done a diploma in Farsi. No one is saying he is a Sufi. We all know he is an entertainer who dresses up the way he does just to entertain. But the content of his music is what sets him apart from Hans Raj Hans (Also a Sufi pretender) and others who sing about dance, women and other bekaar stuff. Having a good voice is one thing, but using that voice to sing about women, sharaab, dance and such stuff is not doing service to Punjabi language or culture. Such singers are only contributing to the degradation of Punjabi culture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hans Raj Hans (Also a Sufi pretender) i second that. his head shaking is funny. and not in a good way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 I remember going to one Sufi event in Punjab near Faridkot. The Sufi master who had kesh but trimmed dharri, let loose him hair and bending over with his hair flowing down to the floor he then swung his head around and around like he was in a trance. His chela was holding a hen over the head of some guy and muttering something. They serve some yellow coloured rice as parshad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbreakable Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 He has done a phd in Sufi Music and teaches in Punjabi University Chandigarh which in Punjab at least is considered a good university, he has also done a diploma in Farsi. No one is saying he is a Sufi. We all know he is an entertainer who dresses up the way he does just to entertain. But the content of his music is what sets him apart from Hans Raj Hans (Also a Sufi pretender) and others who sing about dance, women and other bekaar stuff. Having a good voice is one thing, but using that voice to sing about women, sharaab, dance and such stuff is not doing service to Punjabi language or culture. Such singers are only contributing to the degradation of Punjabi culture. I actually didn't bring up the sufi issue. You are beating that drum, not me. I am only concerned with what they sing. Since finding out about Sartaj, I just can't listen to that chor (Thief), I guess this is uplifting the so called Punjabi Culture you treasure so much. As for hans raj hans, its a personal choice and I believe that he has a excellent voice, miles better than most singers in Panjab, including your Sartaj. I actually don't mind his singing, at least he doesn't steal from other singers and writers (yes the lesser of two evils). As for Bekaar stuff, trust me, most if not all of Punjabi Culture is bekaar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) I actually didn't bring up the sufi issue. You are beating that drum, not me. I am only concerned with what they sing. Since finding out about Sartaj, I just can't listen to that chor (Thief), I guess this is uplifting the so called Punjabi Culture you treasure so much. As for hans raj hans, its a personal choice and I believe that he has a excellent voice, miles better than most singers in Panjab, including your Sartaj. I actually don't mind his singing, at least he doesn't steal from other singers and writers (yes the lesser of two evils). As for Bekaar stuff, trust me, most if not all of Punjabi Culture is bekaar. I'm not beating any drum. The reason I mentioned him having a PhD in Sufi music, possessing a diploma in Farsi language and being a professor in Sufi music at PU Chandigarh is because in your previous post you said: "He isn't a professor....you only become a Dr. after you do a PhD (am I right??), and the after writing a dozen or so papers and been accepted by your peers, you then become a recognised professor." As for Hans Raj Hans, he's one of the biggest Chor (Thief) of them all. Half of "his" songs are actually plagiarized from Pakistani Punjabi artists. Not only that, he's also a proud Radhaswami who promotes his heretic cult! Yet he also tries to pretend he's some kind of a big time Sufi saint while also singing about women like some cheap bollywood hero! What a charlatan he is! Having an excellent voice may be good, many kanjars and kanjaris also have great voices, what is that suppose to prove? Using one's voice for the betterment of society and culture is a good use of one's voice rather then singing about kanjar culture like dance, women, Sharaab. Your assertion that "most if not all of Punjabi Culture is bekaar" is not true. Some aspects of Punjabi culture is not in line with Gurmat, but most if it is good. I for one am proud to be a Punjabi. I do not subscribe to Gora culture. Edited March 12, 2011 by Mithar 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Problem with Panjab is Miss Pooja fever and rightly so, she is only singing what is happening in Punjab. Kudos to her for cashing in. Anybody in her shoes would do the same. Seriously? Is there a big problem with guys whistling at girls there? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zl7wy7hF5A 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbreakable Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 I'm not beating any drum. The reason I mentioned him having a PhD in Sufi music, possessing a diploma in Farsi language and being a professor in Sufi music at PU Chandigarh is because in your previous post you said: "He isn't a professor....you only become a Dr. after you do a PhD (am I right??), and the after writing a dozen or so papers and been accepted by your peers, you then become a recognised professor." As for Hans Raj Hans, he's one of the biggest Chor (Thief) of them all. Half of "his" songs are actually plagiarized from Pakistani Punjabi artists. Not only that, he's also a proud Radhaswami who promotes his heretic cult! Yet he also tries to pretend he's some kind of a big time Sufi saint while also singing about women like some cheap bollywood hero! What a charlatan he is! Having an excellent voice may be good, many kanjars and kanjaris also have great voices, what is that suppose to prove? Using one's voice for the betterment of society and culture is a good use of one's voice rather then singing about kanjar culture like dance, women, Sharaab. Your assertion that "most if not all of Punjabi Culture is bekaar" is not true. Some aspects of Punjabi culture is not in line with Gurmat, but most if it is good. I for one am proud to be a Punjabi. I do not subscribe to Gora culture. How can Hans Raj Hans be a Chor, he doesn't even write his songs???? As for his voice, there is no doubt he has talent. I like him for his voice and most, not all, most of his songs. Not forgetting Gurdas Maan, who writes and sings his own songs, another legend, and babbu maan. Who all are guilty of singing about women, dance, sharaab, etc. At least they are being true to themselves. They are singers in a commercial work. Supply and demand. i.e. Miss Pooja. As for the chor sartaj, majority of people won't even know what he done. So his chori is safe with him. I'd rather listen to somebody who is being true to themselves, rather than a chor. One of them is a pretender and the other isnt. Please provide clarification where some aspects of Punjabi culture is in line with Gurmat? That is what you are implying are you not? Good for you if you are a Proud Punjabi, and a double whammy good for you if you don't subscribe to "Gora" culture. Here are some questions for you, How do you better society? The Kanjar culture, dance, women, Sharaab?? (been here for thousands of years) Oh and what is wrong with Gora culture? That is a bigoted statement to make. I've had enough of this topic and your sartaj..lol.... Have you heard his third album, particularily the song daulatan, here listen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j87SRTBef_E When he was writing this, do you think he was thinking "hmmm..How shall I better the punjabi culture.." Do you think he thought twice about stealing somebody elses work?...or hold on, what am writing about, respect is better than money.... Or do you think he was thinking "..hmm hun mai hor price kida chuka, 25 pound bohat kat hai".... come dude, wake up and smell the turka 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbreakable Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 Seriously? Is there a big problem with guys whistling at girls there? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zl7wy7hF5A I just can't stand her voice.... Good singer though, done well for herself. But her voice...arrrghhh. Are there no good punjabi female singers out there? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laalsingh Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 Seriously? Is there a big problem with guys whistling at girls there? http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9zl7wy7hF5A ਕੁੜੀਆਂ ਛੇੜਣ ਦੇ ਢੰਗ- ਸੀਟੀ ਮਾਰਨੀ, ਅੱਖ ਮਾਰਨੀ, ਘਰ ਤੋਂ ਸਕੂਲ ਤੇ ਸਕੂਲ ਤੋਂ ਘਰ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ ਆਓੁਣਾ। ਹੋਰ ਵੀ ਕਈ ਹਨ, ਹੁਣ ਯਾਦ ਨਹੀਂ। ਜੇ ਥੋੜਾ ਰਿਸਪਾਂਸ ਦੇਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਲਵ ਲੈਟਰ ਦੇਣੀ। ਜੇ ਫਸ ਗਈ ਤਾਂ ਥਾਂ ਲੱਭਣ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ ਸਭ ਤੋਂ ਔਖਾ। ਹਾਂ, ਕੁੱਟ ਪੈਣ ਦਾ ਖਤਰਾ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) How can Hans Raj Hans be a Chor, he doesn't even write his songs???? As for his voice, there is no doubt he has talent. I like him for his voice and most, not all, most of his songs. Not forgetting Gurdas Maan, who writes and sings his own songs, another legend, and babbu maan. Who all are guilty of singing about women, dance, sharaab, etc. At least they are being true to themselves. They are singers in a commercial work. Supply and demand. i.e. Miss Pooja. As for the chor sartaj, majority of people won't even know what he done. So his chori is safe with him. I'd rather listen to somebody who is being true to themselves, rather than a chor. One of them is a pretender and the other isnt. Please provide clarification where some aspects of Punjabi culture is in line with Gurmat? That is what you are implying are you not? Good for you if you are a Proud Punjabi, and a double whammy good for you if you don't subscribe to "Gora" culture. Here are some questions for you, How do you better society? The Kanjar culture, dance, women, Sharaab?? (been here for thousands of years) Oh and what is wrong with Gora culture? That is a bigoted statement to make. I've had enough of this topic and your sartaj..lol.... Have you heard his third album, particularily the song daulatan, here listen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j87SRTBef_E When he was writing this, do you think he was thinking "hmmm..How shall I better the punjabi culture.." Do you think he thought twice about stealing somebody elses work?...or hold on, what am writing about, respect is better than money.... Or do you think he was thinking "..hmm hun mai hor price kida chuka, 25 pound bohat kat hai".... come dude, wake up and smell the turka Your Hans Raj Hans is a Chor. He copies his songs from Pakistani artists and makes loads of money off it. Take a look at "his" famous song silli silli. The one by the copy cat Hans Raj Hans: This is the original by the Pakistani artist Naseebo: This is called PLAGIARISM! The thing that really gets me is the way your Hans Raj Hans pretends to be a Sufi Saint with his long hair and shaking head like he's in some kind of high spiritual state in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TeN2HWMZq4&feature=related But then he shows his other side in these songs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWW-tQztG40 WAH JI WAAH! What a dhan dhan Sufi Saint he is! Gurdas Maan and Babbu Maan are different, please do not put them down to the level of your Hans Raj Hans's category. They don't act like Sufi saints. They are entertainers and that is what they act like. Hans Raj Hans on the other hand says he is a Sufi, then also sings about partying, women and what not! Sartaj I know is also a Sufi pretender. but atleast he doesn't sing about women, shraab, dance while also pretending to be a sufi. I could care less for Punjabi music, I rarely listen to it anymore since it is mostly about women, shraab, partying, dance. But any singer that makes an effort to try to since about some real issues I would not condemn. As for Punjabi culture, any thing that is not in line with Gurmat is not to be followed. But anything that does not go against Gurmat is okay. Same is true for any culture. It's really surprising how on one hand you condemn your own culture, but then you say what is wrong with Gora culture and even say I am bigoted by making my statement. Firstly, I didn't condemn Gora culture, I just said i don't subscribe to it so that is not a bigoted statement since Gora culture also has some good aspects and bad aspects (like Punjabi culture does). Edited March 13, 2011 by Mithar 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Say what you want. The guy has a killer live voice if this is anything to go by: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cln-0FJmv3I&feature=rec-LGOUT-real_rev-rn-2r-6-HM 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.