Ragi Darshan Cronies Humbled At Anti Sikh Lehar Center,toronto

[singh2]

http://www.panthic.org/articles/5237

SIKH PROTEST: RAGI AND CRONIES ROUTED AND HUMILIATED IN TORONTO

PANTHIC.ORG | Published on April 2, 2010

Police with Canine Units Patrol Kala-Afghani Lehar Center where Ragi was to visit.

Brampton, Toronto (KP) – Ex-communicated heretic, Ragi Darshan and his cronies suffered another major setback when a 3-day function in his Canadian hometown collapsed and was cancelled amidst the chaos and boisterous protests by the greater Toronto Sikh community.

The pro-Kala Afghani Sikh Lehar Center on Bramsteele Road in Brampton, commonly referred to as the “ਸਿੱਖ ਜ਼ਹਿਰ ਸੈਂਟਰ”, became the center of controversy again, after organizers decided to host a weekend function and invite the ex-communicated Ragi who is forbidden by Sri Akal Takht Sahib from utilizing the platforms of any Sikh institution.

Earlier, Sikh community members voiced their concerns to the Peel Regional Police. They had warned that if the pro-Kala Afghani Sikh Lehar Center allowed the controversial Ragi to perform Kirtan at the complex, it would be a serious violation of Sri Akal Takht Sahib Edicts; which could trigger a fierce backlash from the Sikh community.

Despite the warnings, the organizers went ahead and scheduled the function anyway. The function was to be initiated Friday evening, and conclude on Sunday.

By early evening on Friday, hundreds of protestors from the Sikh community, young and old, had gathered outside the Lehar Center. Their message was simple: they would not allow the ex-communicated Ragi Darshan on stage.

Protests have followed the Ragi everywhere in India and Europe since he was ex-communicated from the Sikh Panth in January of 2010. Fearing the wrath of the Sikh Sangat, the Ragi decided to not show up at the Brampton venue but left his supporters stuck in a conundrum.

Below are some highlights of the events from Friday.

Several Hundred members of Toronto's Sikh Community Unite Against Ragi an his Kala-Afghani Supporters

Fearing opposition, Ragi Darshan fails to show up at anti-Panthic venue

Kala-Afghanis Armed with Sticks and Rods Challenge and Assault Sikh Sangat

Main organizers, Manjit Mangat, Jagdish Mangat publicly humiliated by Sikh Activists

Police shield organizers from massive show of force by Sikh community

The pro-Kala Afghani Sikh Lehar Center is not new to controversy, earlier this year, one of its members, Harman Mann, had publicly rediculed Sri Jaap Sahib and challenged the Sikh community with his blasphemous remarks. Several Panthic sevadars accepted his 'challenge' and came over to the Lehar Center earlier this year and disciplined Harman Mann appropriately.

More photos and details of the protest coming soon...

Manjit Mangat, president of anti-Panthic Sikh Lehar Center,

bloodied in an altercation, stands humiliated at the front steps

of his complex where Ragi was to visit.

Police surround complex to shield a handfull of

Kala-Afghanis during the protest by the Sikh community

Ragi supporters in dismay and state of shock

after boisterous protest from Sikh Community

[Mithar]

Worldwide Sangat needs to make sure Darshan Chand does not get a chance to perform kirtan at a Gurdwara. These Kala Afghanists are trying their best right now at trying to show the world that Akal Takht's hukamnama means nothing which is why they commonly refer to it as "kooRhnama". Akal Takht is supreme for us, and no amount of propaganda by anti Sikh forces will change that.

[amardeep]

Is Akal thakht supreme for us? Is'nt that a form of idol worship? If the people that control the Akal Thakht are corrupt and judge in their own favour and interests, I do not see a reason why I should still accept their hukams as I do not accept their legitimacy (im just talking in theory here, not giving my personal opinion of the current comitee at AKal Thakt)

Edited April 3, 2010 by amardeep

[Mithar]

Is Akal thakht supreme for us? Is'nt that a form of idol worship? If the people that control the Akal Thakht are corrupt and judge in their own favour and interests, I do not see a reason why I should still accept their hukams as I do not accept their legality (im just talking in theory here, not giving my personal opinion of the current comitee at AKal Thakt)

My brother, this is the effect of Kala Afghanist propaganda. For the last few years, they have been spreading propaganda that Akal takht is not supreme, we can defy Akal Takht, “OH it has no historical basis, we can do all the manmat we like”. They have been hammering these manmat notions in our head slowly and steadily. The result is, we without even knowing it have become believers of what they are saying regarding the authority of Akal Takht. If Akal Takht issues a Hukamnama that is in line with Gurmat we need to follow it instead of casting doubt on the authority of Akal Takht. Just take at look at the people who believe in the authority of the Akal Takht and the people who not:

People who do not believe in the Authority of Akal Takht:

-Bhasourias, Kala Afghana, Dilgeer, Darshan Chand, Ghagha and the entire Kala Afghanist movement.

People who do believe in the Authority of the Akal Takht:

-Akali Phula Singh, Maharaja Ranjit Singh, the originators of the Akali Dal, Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawala, Kharkoo Singhs of the 80s. (I have just listed a few here since the Gursikhs who can be listed here are endless).

Seeing the list here between the two groups, whose example would you want to follow?

[singh2]

Is Akal thakht supreme for us? Is'nt that a form of idol worship? If the people that control the Akal Thakht are corrupt and judge in their own favour and interests, I do not see a reason why I should still accept their hukams as I do not accept their legality (im just talking in theory here, not giving my personal opinion of the current comitee at AKal Thakt)

Sikhs follow miri and piri that is saint soldier concept. Akal takhat represents Guru panth in the form of panj piaras.

That is why it is always supreme for sikhs.

Kala afghana followers want to destroy that concept. That is why so much propaganda against akal takhat.

[amardeep]

So if, God forbid, the darshan panthis manages to take control over the Akal Thakt and they start issuing hukamnamas saying people should come and donate money infront of the Akal Thakt then you would go do it?

[dalsingh101]

Singh2

You never answered the hypothetical point about a possible scenario where the Akal Takhat has been taken over by people with nefarious or selfish intent. In M. Ranjit's time he managed to reduce it to virtual powerlessness after Akali Phoola Singh's shaheedi for example. So it has been done before.

People these days think that Badal has undue sway over the takhat and it largely functions at his behest. Jathedars can be removed at will it seems?

Anyway, Darshan Phudhu is like small fry, when is the Akal Takhat going to give the panth, visionary, global leadership? Or are we stuck in a cycle of:

(1) Yet another 'Sikh' bewakoof makes ridiculous claims about Sikhi.

(2) He is warned by the Akal Takhat.

(3) He continues.

(4) He is made a tankah.

(5) A furore takes place for a while after which the bewakoof is sidelined by panth.

(6) Time elapses

(7) Goto 1

It is kalyug, and nothing seems impossible.

Edited April 3, 2010 by dalsingh101

[amardeep]

As far as I know, Guru Gobind Singh never lived or visited Akal Thakt. Maharaj ran sikh affairs from Anandpur and Pounta Sahib mainly. Miri and Piri are universal principles, they are not limited to a certain building somewhere in India.

Edited April 3, 2010 by amardeep

[dalsingh101]

The Akal Takhat is an important centre. It's political value to the quom however is dependant on the type of people who have the levers of power in their hands.

At best (in wise hands) it can be a beacon for a global Sikh community, a centralising, unifying institute. A great tool for administration and guidance. In the wrong hands it can easily become a useless, corrupt institute too. In the worst case scenario it could be used by wiley anti-Sikhs (be they disguised as Sikhs), to issue useless hukams that betray the quom when they need guidance the most.

The point for me is how are jathedars chosen and what is their remit? How do we ensure the best person is given the reponsibility? Right now it seems like the position is pretty much dependant on SGPC (read Badal's) politics. Have I got it wrong?

Why is the panth never consulted on jathedari?

[amardeep]

The old institution of lineage has been broken by modern democracy.. As far as I know, back in the days the jathedars were nominated for lifetime untill they themselves chose their succesor.. Not like today where people are chosen for 4 years, and during those four years only worry about how they can be re-elected the next time.

Edited April 3, 2010 by amardeep

[dalsingh101]

The old institution of lineage has been broken by modern democracy.. As far as I know, back in the days the jathedars were nominated for lifetime untill they themselves chose their succesor.. Not like today where people are chosen for 4 years, and during those four years only worry about how they can be re-elected the next time.

Popularity, natural ability and concensus played a part in Sikh leadership in the past. Look at Nawab Kapoor Singh, Akali Phoola Singh and various early misaldars. Gurmatta ensured a voice to all, high and low, in Sikh affairs. Where did that go?

In my lifetime I have seen many jathedars come and go due to Akali Dal political rankling. Most of the times the jathedars themselves are appointed without informing the wider panth. This isn't right.

Plus is there anyone of you out there that thinks Badal/SGPC aren't corrupt to the core? What is the relationship between the Akaal Takhat and these guys? Spell it out for us.

[Only five]

Did Akal Takht in the past 15 years ever give a Hukam that was against Gurmat? Badal has control over it then where are the Hukams that go against Gurmat. Sri Akal Takht will always be respect by a Sikh. Even if a crooked person like Sarna or Darshan Laal takes over because it is not that Sri Akal Takht is cunning, but people like Sarna and Darshan Laal and Badals are who control it.

Currently the Hukams from Sri Akal Takht Sahib ji have merit against Darshan Laal. And it's not just one person who says they have merit, but all of the Khalsa Panth stands behind it.

If the Panth did believe the current affair Hukam was boogus then there would not have been protests in already three different countries where alot of Sikhs live and in the homeland. India, UK, and now Canada.

And saying Sri Akal Takht Sahib is run by Badal is just a front now. How long has Badal been around, why wasn't something done over the years. Darshan Laal was Jathedar, where was his voice then. I forgot his followers and him were to busy drinking alcohol and making plans to discredit Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji. Just now people want to bring this up. When this issue is done, no one will even mention Badal holds control everyone will go back into their cave.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Only five

[dalsingh101]

Did Akal Takht in the past 15 years ever give a Hukam that was against Gurmat? Badal has control over it then where are the Hukams that go against Gurmat. Sri Akal Takht will always be respect by a Sikh. Even if a crooked person like Sarna or Darshan Laal takes over because it is not that Sri Akal Takht is cunning, but people like Sarna and Darshan Laal and Badals are who control it.

I know Sikhs will always have affection for the Akaal Takhat, my point was that the jathedari doesn't involve the wider panth. Can someone tell me how the jathedar is chosen? What is the process? Who makes the decision?

And saying Sri Akal Takht Sahib is run by Badal is just a front now. How long has Badal been around, why wasn't something done over the years. Darshan Laal was Jathedar, where was his voice then. I forgot his followers and him were to busy drinking alcohol and making plans to discredit Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji. Just now people want to bring this up. When this issue is done, no one will even mention Badal holds control everyone will go back into their cave.

What and Badal's party doesn't give out booze at election time? Do you think people haven't complained about Badal and his yaari with RSS etc.

Like I said, Darshan is small fry. He will disappear soon and in time a next clown will reappear and do something similar.

Maybe Badal is the best leader we can produce in these times, who knows?

Edited April 3, 2010 by dalsingh101

[singh2]

So if, God forbid, the darshan panthis manages to take control over the Akal Thakt and they start issuing hukamnamas saying people should come and donate money infront of the Akal Thakt then you would go do it?

This question is not in line with your original post.This is a hypothetical case.

The answer is akal takhat is supreme for sikhs.If a person inimical to sikh interests takes control of akal takhat sikhs will lauch struggle to take control back.Example is massa rangar taking control of Harmanidr sahib.

This does not change the status of Guru Panth among sikhs.Akal takhat reprsents Guru panth for sikhs.

[singh2]

The old institution of lineage has been broken by modern democracy.. As far as I know, back in the days the jathedars were nominated for lifetime untill they themselves chose their succesor.. Not like today where people are chosen for 4 years, and during those four years only worry about how they can be re-elected the next time.

Jathedar of akal takhat sahib has taken the right decision by excommunicating Ragi Darshan.had it been a controversial decision sikhs would not have domnstrated for implementation of this decision as evident in uK and now in canada.

Akal takhat's role should never be slighted especially when the heretic gang of kala afghanis have started questioning autehnticity of SGGS also. If there is no akal takhat where will sikhs for guidance.

Edited April 3, 2010 by singh2

[singh2]

Listen to a simple ragi and you will know what these heretcis are upto.

http://www.panthic.org/videoviewer.php?ID=10124471

[Only five]

I know Sikhs will always have affection for the Akaal Takhat, my point was that the jathedari doesn't involve the wider panth. Can someone tell me how the jathedar is chosen? What is the process? Who makes the decision?

What does your questions have to do with this topic. How Jathedar are picked is a whole new topic here and should be discussed under another thread.

What and Badal's party doesn't give out booze at election time? Do you think people haven't complained about Badal and his yaari with RSS etc.

Again what does this have to do with this thread. Singh please start a new thread where all this can be discussed.

Like I said, Darshan is small fry. He will disappear soon and in time a next clown will reappear and do something similar.

If Darshan Laal was a small fry, then we would not have had three protest in three countries and fights break out in all three of them. We have the whole Panth talking, discussing, and fighting amongst themselves over this. Darshan Laal issue is a major one because he is trying to split the Panth up into two. These kind of plans of his need to be tackled now and not left on the till later where we have Panth like the Christians do. We can't let history repeat itself, but in a different religion now.

[dalsingh101]

What does your questions have to do with this topic. How Jathedar are picked is a whole new topic here and should be discussed under another thread.

Again what does this have to do with this thread. Singh please start a new thread where all this can be discussed.

You are right. I'll do that.

If Darshan Laal was a small fry, then we would not have had three protest in three countries and fights break out in all three of them. We have the whole Panth talking, discussing, and fighting amongst themselves over this. Darshan Laal issue is a major one because he is trying to split the Panth up into two. These kind of plans of his need to be tackled now and not left on the till later where we have Panth like the Christians do. We can't let history repeat itself, but in a different religion now.

Fair point. But it does seem that sideshows like Jeonawala and Darshan have been dealt with quite effectively by the panth.

It's weird, lately we've had numerous sideshows bringing drama our way. Ram Rahim, the Bihari 'guru' in Ludhiana, these lot. It seems to have bogged us down. How long will this continue?

[Only five]

You are right. I'll do that.

Fair point. But it does seem that sideshows like Jeonawala and Darshan have been dealt with quite effectively by the panth.

It's weird, lately we've had numerous sideshows bringing drama our way. Ram Rahim, the Bihari 'guru' in Ludhiana, these lot. It seems to have bogged us down. How long will this continue?

I would agree, but everything just escalated when Darshan Laal came back here to Canada. Sikhi is being attacked in every possible way now. Our history, Granths, Identity, etc, etc. We have pseudo scholars writing article that are damaging to any knew person trying to learn about Sikhi.

Darshan Laal needs to be dealt with swiftly, if we want to keep the Panth as one.

[Mithar]

So if, God forbid, the darshan panthis manages to take control over the Akal Thakt and they start issuing hukamnamas saying people should come and donate money infront of the Akal Thakt then you would go do it?

That is why I said if Akal Takht issues a Hukamnama “that is in accordance with Gurmat” then it is our farz as dutiful Sikhs to obey that Hukam. If we as Sikhs know that a hukamnama is not in accorance to the Kasvati of Gurmat/Gurbani then we as the Panth would never stand by it. But if a Hukamnama is in accordance to Kasvati of Gurmat/Gurbani then the entire Panth is behind the Akal Takht. The Akal Takht represents the temporal authority of the Sikhs. We should not follow the examples of people like Badal and anti-Sikh forces like the Kala Afghanists who have no fear or respect of the authority of Akal Takht and think they can defy the Akal Takht. Guru Sahib will deal with them. We ourselves should follow the examples of dutiful Sikhs of the past and present who bow their heads at the authority of the Akal Takht.

[SAadmin]

Need help from lawyers. I thought there is clause in Canadian Law, where an person can be indicted if he/she make blasphemous statement against an religion under hate crime.

May be xylitol veer can give more info on this?

[Only five]

Need help from lawyers. I thought there is clause in Canadian Law, where an person can be indicted if he/she make blasphemous statement against an religion under hate crime.

May be xylitol veer can give more info on this?

Singh I sent you an pm regarding this.

[laalsingh]

Need help from lawyers. I thought there is clause in Canadian Law, where an person can be indicted if he/she make blasphemous statement against an religion under hate crime.

May be xylitol veer can give more info on this?

same reasoning can be used by both sides. darshan chand and party can claim that as per their view of Sikhism, parts of Dasam Granth are blasphemous statements against Guru.

[laalsingh]

In current times, Akaal Takhat is best representative of Panth Khasa. You can complain about liquor/intoxicants in election or influence of money, but truth is, Sikhs vote and elect Badal's party.

If sikh voters can be bought with money or influenced with liquor, then parties other than Badal dal (e.g. Congress or Congress backed others) should win at least few seats. But their score is zero.

I don't like Badal Dal, but reality is, he is chosen by majority panth, and sitting on Akaal Takhat are not some Dhirmallias or Minas, but people of Badal Dal.

[Xylitol]

i don't think the courts should be dragged into this. the negative media attention and exhorbitant costs are something that we don't need.

here's a firsthand account of what happened from bhai Prabhjot Singh :

After the events that occurred on April 2nd 2010 at the Sikh Lehar Centre, and after all the negative feedback online, I feel it's crucial to post the facts of what happened on our side.

Firstly, I think it's important to address the fact that I myself was present and personally involved in everything that transpired. I am not going by what other have said to me, no libel or hearsay.

On April 2nd, 2010, around 1 PM in the afternoon, I received a phone call from Jasdev Singh who told me of the protest against Darshan Lal. I then proceeded to call up many Singhs, including Bhai Ajit Singh Ji Nihang, Bhai Gursheel Singh Ji, Bhai Amarinder Singh Ji Nihang etc. I told them of the protest; many whom said they would try to make it out.

At approximately 5:15 PM, I along with a couple of younger Singhs arrived at Guru Nanak Sikh Centre (Glidden Guru Ghar) and met many Singhs belonging to many different Jathebandis (Akhand Keertani Jatha Tapoban Sahib, Damdami Taksal, etc) After about 30 to 45 minutes of waiting for more Singhs to show up, we all went into the Karate and Gatka Hall in the back. There, Bhai Hardeep Singh Ji, Jathedar of the Punj Pyare, addressed the Singhs and told us that our number one goal is to stop Darshan Lal from doing Keertan without any violence whatsoever. Bhai Daljit Singh Ji Sekhon spoke as well, along with Bhai Amarjit Singh Ji Mann. We then proceeded to the main Darbar Hall where ardas was done and Hukamnama was taken. I wish I could say I remember the Hukamnama but I regretfully do not.

The Singhs then left for Sikh Lehar Centre. It is also important to point out that undercover police officers were across the street taking pictures and notes. We arrived at Sikh Lehar Centre and went to the front door. Police was already on sight and but did nothing to prevent the events. When we arrived, the President Bhai Manjit Singh Mangat, along with his party were blocking the door and refusing us entry. We said that we were simply there to do darshan of Maharaj's Darbar and this is a Gurdwara for the Sangat so denying us entry is not allowed. Manjit Singh Mangat then said that this Gurdwara is run by private money and the land is private property, thus we were trespassing. Can a Gurdwara's doors ever be shut to anyone? I thought we were taught that a Gurdwara is open to anyone no matter their caste, creed, race, sex, affiliation etc. From there, a small pushing session started. I myself broke it up and stood in the middle to calm things down. I said to Manjit Singh Mangat that we just want to come in, this Gurdwara is for our Guru and his sangat, how can he deny us entry? A member of his party then pushed me, thus the Singhs began to push back. Their entire party then pushed against the Singhs. From there, punches were thrown by both sides. Manjit Singh Mangat was pulled out and began to throw a punch at a few Singhs. He was then beat down. A few other Singhs were punched, and only then they fought back.

A member of the Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Gatka Akhara, Jasdeep Singh Gill, saw a member of the Sikh Lehar Centre Party about to attack his father. Jasdeep Singh then punched this man to protect his father. Another Singh then threw the other member away.

I myself did take part in this as well. I continued to push my way inside. I saw a Singh pick up a metal pole but I took it away from him and threw it away. We did fight, but we were not going to use unnecessary force. From this point, I went back outside and saw a police dog attack a Singh. The dog was biting his hand even though the Singh was in the back and not apart of the scuffle itself.

It was at this point that the police intervened and broke up the fight. As we were leaving, we did see Sikhs who had their dastars knocked off. It was an unfortunate sight but a dastar of Guru Gobind Singh Ji can only be claimed by the person wearing it if that person believes in Jaap Sahib and Chaupai Sahib.

We moved away from the door and were gathered in the parking lot. A police officer was speaking to me when I noticed a young man by the name of Randeep Singh talking to a police officer in the distance. He was staring right at me and pointing. He then pointed to his Kara and made a gesture that I was using it to hit someone. The Kara could be used as a Shastar, but I never used it to hit anyone either. This is clearly an example of how this party lies to exaggerate a situation and blow up a situation to something way more severe.

After standing around and trying to understand what was happening, the Singhs then left back to Glidden Gurdwara. From there we made sure that everyone was safe and sound and that everyone was back.

It is also worth mentioning that a couple of Amritdhari, Keski wearing aunties went to Sikh Lehar to do Darshan of Maharaj on their own. They had no affiliation with us but they were also stopped as well. They were issued a notice of Trespass and asked to not come to the Sikh Lehar Centre from April 2nd 2010 to April 4th 2010. A gurdwara is now denying access to the sangat. Around 7:45ish PM, the Singhs broke up and went their respected ways.

That was the situation. Now, there has been a lot of negative feedback on the internet regarding all of this. I'd like to address these issues as well.

Firstly, like I said I was there and involved and in the middle of the action. People are saying things like "...I was not there, but 3-4 people I have talked to were." It is also important to look at the credibility of these sources as well. Do these people have a reason to twist the story around? That is something to look at as well.

"Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs were heard making "battle-tactics", how to get into Sikh Lehar Centre, and remarking they will chop Darshan Singh and his supporters into peices." No such plans were made whatsoever. Singhs were discussing, if anything were to go down, how to make sure Maharaj's Satkaar can be kept and no beadbi can be done. We had teenagers with us as well and the older Singhs were cautious and worried about their wellbeing. Chopping Darshan Singh up? Are you honestly going to tell me that in a situation where emotions are high like this, you are not going to say things you may not mean? I don't know how many people have actually been in a fight, but when you are angry and almost hateful to a person, you wish the worst for them. You say things you do not mean, anything to make yourself feel better at that time. If someone really wanted to chop him up, they could go to his academy or his house here in the GTA. If they wanted to kill him, they don't need to come to a Gurdwara to do it. He doesn't have police protection 24/7. Things have just been exaggerated.

"Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs were heard saying, "if you are not ready to give your head today, then leave" making it seem like it was a battle to the death." Singhs were saying how Baba Deep Singh Ji said this to the Singhs, remember what those Singhs stood for; Dashmesh Paatshaah's bani. These kind of statements were not made before the protest. This comment was made after the fight and it was not made by one of the main organizers, it was a random member of the sangat. Fighting was not the agenda.

"Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs went into a "formation" to try to enter the Sikh Lehar Centre and were stopped at the door. After being refused to get in, weapons were drawn and Sikh Lehar Centre members were attacked with swords and sticks." A formation? Singhs crowded at the door because they wanted to know why they were denied entry. Weapons were drawn? The only Singh with a weapon was Bhai Amarinder Singh Ji Nihang with a Dang and he didn't even get there until 10 minutes after everything went down. Even when he did arrive, he stayed beside his car 200 to 300 ft away from the Gurdwara. There were no swords whatsoever. Singhs who always wear their 3' Sri Sahibs were in the back but not once was it pulled out. Singhs have more sense than that. No weapons were used in any way. Like I said, a Singh picked up a metal pole that was inside the Gurdwara. I then took it away from him in an instant.

"Sikh Lehar Centre members were hit with swords and sticks" No they were not. This is all false. No one had anything like that at that time.

"This shows that clearly Singhs went there with an intention to inflict bodily harm towards members of Sikh Lehar Centre. Panthic.org's report and Jasdev's report that Singhs attacked in self-defense is total bullshit. Jasdev Singh, by the way, showed up after the altercation occurred, so him posting a picture (which he took after everything happened) and inferring that he was there while it happened is bullshit." Singhs did Ardas in front of Guru Maharaj before we left. I had joked with Bhai Hardeep Singh Ji before we left saying that if things go down just give the order, he then said "Prabhjot Singh, we are not to fight unless Guru Sahib puts us in the situation." We left with keeping things civil and peaceful in mind. It escalated to that point where we had to fight. Jasdev Singh was late for the altercation due to a sewa that the Singhs had asked him to carry out for this particular event. We left with peaceful means in mind and the sewa was tied in with that. The older Singhs asked me to forward the message to Jasdev Singh. I called Jasdev Singh and told him the sewa the older Singhs wanted to be done. He was in the process of returning when everything transpired. He arrived 5 minutes after it happened.

"So this brings us to the point, should we be actively trying to kill/harm people who do not support Dasam Granth? Do not get me wrong, protesting peacefully is one thing, but going directly and trying to bust into a gurdrawa and 'chop into peices' Anti-Dasam Granth supporters is another." This is masala adding at it's finest. These words have been used to blow up this situation to something it's not. Singhs didn't go to fight at first. We definitely did not go to kill anyone. These words are opinion and not fact. Let's not mix it up.

"I do not support this view and anyone who does should seriously re-think their beliefs. A very big percent of the Panth right now does not even believe in Raagmala from Adi Guru Granth Sahib, are you going to massacre all of them? What about the part of the Panth that does not believe in Sarbloh Granth, which btw is a pretty common belief even amongst the traditional Sikh groups like the Nirmala Sampradya." Why should people rethink their beliefs if they support this view? Do people not see the subtle brainwashing going on? The Raagmala is an issue that Akal Takht Sahib said that if anyone wants to read it they can, and if they don't they don't have to. Akal Takht Sahib has not made that kind of fainslaa, decision, towards Sri Dasam Granth. Dasam Granth, Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars and Bhai Nand Lal Ji's Vaars and other Granths are accepted and sung at Sri Harmandir Sahib. It's accepted by the Khalsa Panth and the Punj Takhts.

"The Problem we have is that we ourselves, the Pro-Dasam Granth supporters are not even educated, and are not getting out there to the public and doing as much prachaar as the anti-dasam granth lot." I do not agree with this at all. There are many educated Pro Dasam Granth supporters. I think by throwing unnecessary questions out there, this person may be creating more divisions in the Panth than needed. Many Niddar Nang supporters have this notion in their mind that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Why is it then that their leader had to ask for maafi, forgiveness, at Sri Hazoor Sahib from Baba Kulwant Singh Ji at the 300 year Celebrations back in 2008?

The goal was to stop Darshan Lal from doing Keertan. He was stopped, the goal was achieved.

"...He sat at home and we fought amongst ourselves before the throne of our Guru." We did not fight in the Darbar hall. It was outside.

"keep this up and we're on the path of creating a Sunni-Shia type divide in the panth." I think you guys have become to sensitive towards fighting. Fights broke out during the Guru's times as well. No one said anything back then. Have we come to the point that we believe our Guru to be a weakling and fighting in it's presence is a sight Maharaj cannot see? They have seen fighting for the past 400 years, what makes us think that we'll stop now? You're telling me that when Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji was resolving issues between the sangat, fights didn't break out then? Do we not see his jot in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Punj Takhts, Sikh scholars, philosophers, Sant Samaj, Sants and Mahapurkhs, Ragis, Snantan Sikh Sampardhaas, I.E, Damdami Taksal, Nihang Dals, Nirmala Sampardhaas, etc all believe in Dasam Granth. These Anti Dasam Supporters, make up no more than 5% of the Panth. A Sunni Shia division can only be something like 50-50 60-40 or even 70-30. Not 95-5.

"I asked him if he saw dastaars on the ground. He said yes. How does that make you guys feel?

If you want to get into technicalities about maryada that all you guys always fight about, we can do that

1. Guru Hargobind's Maryada is that the dusht gets 3 vars, then you respond. This is backed up by Guru Gobind Singh in sri bachittar natak granth, where he allowed 3 arrows to be shot at him before he returned fire

2. Guru Ramdas allowed himself to be kicked,

3. They did not allow Guru Teg Bahadur into Darbar Sahib ,and he quietly walked away

4. You already know what Sri Zafarnamah has to say about when your allowed to take out your shamsheer."

A dastar on the ground. I've seen people take their dastar off themselves and put it on the ground. Hindus, Muslims, and anyone else used to wear dastaaran as well. It was a sign of royalty. A dastar of Guru Sahib can only be claimed if you're a Singh! If you do not believe in Jaap Sahib and Chaupai Sahib, how can you call yourself a Singh of Dashmesh Pita? A dastar of Kalgidhar Paathshaah's on the ground is a disgrace. An aam pugg on the ground is besti for the person who wears it. Thirdly, there's no "Maryada" in a jang or a fight. Only two rules exist. One: Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji taught us to never do a vaar on a dusht whose running away. Two: Never do a vaar first. There's nothing, aside from the saakhi of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's fight with Hari Chand, that says you have to let three vaar be fired then fight. Only in that saakhi did Guru Sahib let Hari Chand do three vaars. Guru Ram Das Sahib Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji are the ideal examples of Nimrita. You want to talk about Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji? Why wasn't he given the Gurtagaddi right away? The answer lies in his name: Tegh Bahadur. He was a vicious warrior. Zafarnama says as a last resort. Do you even know the background here? Do you know how many sitdowns and sitdown attempts there have been? I really think you guys are confused as to what the real story is here. When Niddar Nang does his training sessions or demos, his dastar and his students' is on the ground 50% of the time anyway.

"The Professor was actually at Sikh Lehar when all of this happened. But does it really matter who's right or wrong. Innocent people who were just there to pray and be on their way got hurt..." No innocent person was harmed in any way. Those responsible for causing the mess in the first place were targeted and that's all. Those who are involved were those who understood the situation, that was all. The cops were standing by while the fighting was going on. They waited until it cooled down before they stepped in. Nothing like that happened. If they were pushed then they shouldn't have been so close to the scene. Anyone in the right mind knows to avoid getting hurt, they shouldn't go close to the situation. People did get hurt, but they were involved in the situation to begin with.

I'm amazed. We have gone from a community of lions to a community of sheep. Why is everyone so afraid of violence and fighting when it's called for? Yes it should be avoided but when it happens, so what? All these ideas that you guys are throwing out have already been thought of and carried out. Agree to disagree? This isn't a argument over something miniscule. To question Gurbani is a HUGE paap and a huge issue; an issue Singhs killed for. Darshan Lal has been asked many times to clear this issue up with Sikh scholars and leaders. He's been called three times to Sri Akal Takht Sahib, each time he failed to sit down and talk. It's ignorance, it's arrogance on his part. Especially since he spent the majority of his lifetime singing bani from Dasam Granth. When he was Jathedar, he could have made a decision regarding Dasam Granth then. Why the silence?

"Do I have to go attack anti-DG Sikhs and force police to walk inside Gurduara with shoes and heads uncovered?" Police did not go inside. If they went in when we left, maybe you should have tried to explain to them to take it off and cover their heads. We weren't there to stop them, but you were. They didn't go into the Main Darbar because we didn't go there. The scene was only in the area where you take your shoes off anyways.

Instead of going by hearsay, which causes us to bang our heads and create more fights and more divisions, please get facts straight and if you really wanted to be apart of the solution, then please come out to the prior meetings and be apart of the process. Please do not come out to one program and blow things out of proportion. The amazing part of yesterday's events is the unity that was shown amongst all jathebandiaan. Everyone from any group got together and stopped a man who has been excommunicated from our Panth, which makes him no better than Ashutosh, Sacha Sauda, Narakhdhari etc.