What Raagi Darshan Singh Is Accomplishing?

[laalsingh]

News from Toronto Star

Did Guru Gobind Singh promote group sex or did he not?

Just like the bible, a storm of debate swirls around interpretations of the 10th book of Sikhs

The Dasam Granth is all rhymed poetry but in the controversy about it there is growing vitriolic diatribe.

"The debate was dormant – people quietly believed one way or the other," said Harbans Lal, president of Academy of Guru Granth Studies at Arlington, Texas. "This open fighting is relatively recent ... it started about 15 years ago. Now it's blowing up in everyone's face."

Last week, a man was stabbed when violence broke out at a Sikh temple in Brampton where Darshan Singh, a former, now-excommunicated head priest of Sikhs, was invited to speak. Singh, who lives in Brampton, is one of the most vocal critics of the Dasam Granth.

A scripture of Sikhism, it contains texts attributed to the tenth and the last Sikh guru, Gobind Singh, who lived in central India. They were compiled after the guru's death in 1708 by Mani Singh, one of his disciples. Singh took nine years to gather the guru's writings from various followers.

But there were different versions. From 1892 to 1897, Sikh scholars studied as many as 32 adaptations and prepared the Dasam Granth now under fire among some Sikhs. They believe it promotes sexual promiscuity, degrades women and also encourages use of intoxicants.

MOST RELIGIOUS scriptures are second-hand and passed down over centuries, and controversies about authenticity, authorship or importance are common. It's not clear how many pages or verses of the scripture are considered controversial. In September 2000, after a scholar, Virsa Singh, said his research indicated that Dasam Granth in its entirety was the tenth guru's work, the high priests issued an edict banning all debate on its authenticity.

But ten years on, the debate is still swirling.

Darshan Singh, who has brought the controversy to the forefront, maintains the Dasam Granth is inconsistent with Gobind Singh's other teachings and could not have been written by him.

"There is nothing to prove that Guru Gobind Singh wrote most of the verses," said Singh in an interview with the Star.

Dasam Granth – 1,428 pages long and mostly in Braj Bhasha, a dialect of Hindi spoken widely in many parts of India until the 19th century – contains multiple references to group sex that have riled some Sikhs. A part of the scripture talks about consuming intoxicants before sex to make it better, said Singh. He maintains some verses encourage people to have multiple sexual partners – including with immediate family members.

"It says there shouldn't be any boundaries. No guru would ever preach that," argued Singh.

Some verses in the Dasam Granth also freely talk about cutting hair, considered taboo for any practicing Sikh. "Hair is one of the important tenets of Sikhism, as said by the gurus," said Singh. "How could, then, Guru Gobind Singh have anything to do with a verse where a woman talks about disguising her lover as another woman by cutting off the hair?"

Other verses say that women should not be trusted, said Singh, who has also been studying the scripture for years. "That's not what our gurus said. Each one of them preached gender equality."

There is some debate with regard to mention of gods and goddesses in the book – the Sikh gurus maintained there is only one God. Also, parts of the Dasam Granth appear to be contradictory to the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib, the holy book of the Sikhs, considered living embodiment of the 10 gurus.

Lal, president of Academy of Guru Granth Studies at Arlington, Texas, said he's not "scholarly enough to say if parts of Dasam Granth have not been written by Guru Gobind Singh but I do believe that it's a part of Sikh literature and we should abstain from using language about it that hurts people."

UNTIL THIS DEBATE is settled, Sikhs should pay attention to the Guru Granth Sahib, he added. That book is a compilation of the teachings of all the gurus that is overwhelmingly accepted by Sikhs.

Sikh scholars argue that there's enormous respect for Gobind Singh on both sides and that is one reason for the debate. "One side doesn't want to challenge anything that Gobind Singh wrote because it means defying the guru himself," said Santbir Pannu, a young practicing Sikh in Toronto who has read large parts of the original Dasam Granth and most of the translations.

The other side believes the tenth guru's name should not be associated with a book whose philosophy is contrary to the gurus.

When it comes to scriptures, people get passionate very quickly, said Pannu.

But this controversy has gone on for too long, he thinks. "The Sikhs undertook a thorough in-depth investigation of the Dasam Granth and came to conclusions (in 1897). At that meeting, some compositions were deemed to be spurious. Something similar needs to be undertaken today, under the authority of the head priests," said Pannu.

Since the scripture is mostly in Braj Bhasha, a language no longer spoken, only its translations have been widely read. Many verses are long and mystical, and there is room for misinterpretation, said Lal.

But Darshan Singh has no such qualms. "I challenge you to read it and decide on your own if this could have been written by the guru," said Singh. "Read and decide. That's all."

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/793458--did-guru-gobind-singh-promote-group-sex-or-did-he-not

[dalsingh101]

Is the Toronto Star widely read in the region?

[laalsingh]

Is the Toronto Star widely read in the region?

As per wikipedia, Toronto Star is highest circulation news paper.

[SAadmin]

Ahh great thats exactly what we need? Internal debates/affairs presented to this world. Regular Joe blow Canadians rarely interested in it and gives two hoots about it but if we are really so hell bent to present to this world then most people will understand tales of men and women natures are written to save this being from social pitfalls.

[dalsingh101]

Flippin' ell.

[Xylitol]

So it begins...

on an even higher and more public level.

I suppose he can confuse more sangat this way. Don't worry, the true panth is small, but true to its master and receives blessings from the same Master.

[GillAUS]

I suggest all Sikhs in the Toronto area (and the world for that matter) to send letters or emails to this newspaper for even agreeing to allow such bakwaas to be posted under its name.

This Raveena Aulakh is a real piece of work

[Xylitol]

Apparently, the Indians have a journalist in their pocket in BC according to retired CBI Spymaster, MK Dhar in his book 'Open Secrets'. Perhaps they own others in other places as well. OF course, it's entirely possible that she's just another uncle tom trying to blacken the name of the community to make herself look like a hard hitting journalist.

btw, this same book mentions that they have purchased Raggi DArshan Singh.

[GillAUS]

The BC journalist is probably Kim Bolan lol

I think there is an article online that says that Singhs in the 80's already had their doubts about the Ragi's loyalty.

As for Raveena Aulakh, I think she is probably one of those self-hating types.

[dalsingh101]

I suggest all Sikhs in the Toronto area (and the world for that matter) to send letters or emails to this newspaper for even agreeing to allow such bakwaas to be posted under its name.

Think about that one. Newspaper editors live for stories that generate such reactions, it's good for business. Doing that will have a counter-productive effect.

People are saying the same thing about a British play (produced by another self hater), that caused a bit of a stir a few years ago. They were saying the play was so mediocre that had members of the Sikh community not 'violently' protested outside the theatre, it would have quickly sunk into obscurity. As it was, the Sikh reaction made it nationally famous and the subject of many columns in the press, most of which weren't flattering to Sikhs.

[GillAUS]

I agree that many of us would get caught up in emotions (it's hard not to given the issue), and we certainly don't want to play into this kind of trap.

But I still think that some well written responses can at least rebuke what has been written and show that there are two sides to the issue.

[dalsingh101]

What's the lesson?

That no matter how bullshit and offensive a theological position someone espouses towards Sikhi is, we need to be extra cautious in our choice of response so as to avoid negative publicity from media sources which are frequently inimical towards us?

[Kaljug]

It's probably best that any letter written to this paper comes from a large Sikh organisation in Canada rather than angry individuals, even if the anger is righteous and the headline is clearly a ploy to rile up already frustrated Sikhs. It should include an introduction to what the Akal Takht represents for Sikhs (likening it to the Vatican for Catholics), then provide copies of the hukumnamas against Darshan Lal appearing in any Gurdwara so that people understand that what Darshan Lal is doing is inciting Sikhs and purposely enflaming passions. Perhaps copies of the passages from Open Secrets should be quoted to show that he is acting as an Indian agent. The aim should be that the Canadian authorities ban him from entering Canada, and it should embarrass the Indian government so that they are forced to react against their agent.

Maybe next time there is a bhanga in Canada with these kala-afghana scum, someone could pick up Darshan Lal and use him to beat some kala afghana to death. Perhaps then the tabloids in Canada could write articles asking for a ban on fat, egotistical traitorous Indian hobbits.

Edit: Looking on the bright side, there will likely be some people who, under the influence of Kaljug, will search for translations of Sri Dasam Granth because of this article, and will realise how deep thw wisdom of this Granth is.

Regards,

K.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Kaljug

[SAadmin]

This clearly shows anti dasam granth people have edge over us and having last laugh in Toronto. Lets recap just last week events, anti dasam granth people barred entry to sikhs in to gurdwara (which is open to everyone by sikh standards) but by law standard (private property) which got few ultra orthodox sikhs riled up and use violence but ending up stabbing of man with kirpan. Darshan and his party used this event to gain momentum and sympathy in their cause and made us looks like fanatics and then using sympathetic media to spew peace of crap article like above.

They are playing hardcore politics here. Ultra orthodox ankhi singhs should learn something from this, times are different now so they must preserve their bir ras energy and use it somewhere else and must respond to these guys with chankya type politics.

Media finally found their imaginary divide between moderates and fundamentalist within sikhs to be real now.

[dalsingh101]

Who is going to explain things to our more passionate/fiery but dimwitted brothers then?

The irony is that whilst they so conspicuously defend the DG, they seem to be totally incapable of utilising the deeper esoteric rajnitic knowledge enshrined within.

That headline from the Star is about as sensationalist as you can get.

[amardeep]

Just silence it to death

[tonyhp32]

Dalsingh has it about right. A massive own goal by the idiots that thought they could use violence to stop someone from saying what he wanted. Muslims have had to learn it the hard way but in the west you can't go around going hyper each time something that you don't want to hear gets aired. The Pro-DG people have to understand this but I doubt they will. It seems that everytime Ragi appears there is an incident when fools start to get violent or even by their presence and lack of media savvy get themselves cornered into a violent incident then Sikhs suffer. Losers then come on forums to post 'how we stopped Darshan Lal' fanning the incident even more. I have no idea whether Ragi is right or wrong but it seems his opponents by their actions are giving his views more publicity. By trying to contact the media and stating that he is excommunicated by Akal Takht is the same as making his a Galileo type figure which the liberal media will lap up. The best thing to do is to either ignore him or challenge him to a debate within the community. Igoring him takes away the oxygen of publicity that characters like him need. Debating him gives his view publicity but if the pro-DG people are confident of their views then it allows the common Sikhs to know facts and make a decision.

[shaheediyan]

Tony has actually made some very good points, irrelevant of his stance (or lack of) on Guru Gobind Singhs bani.

[SAadmin]

exactly right tony veer. As once wise man said, worst form of parchar you can do against stuff you don't agree with is use dhakha either in words or by force. Other side parchar will gain more credibility and momentum and they will use that to gain more sympathy in their cause. Ultra orthodox people need to understand times are different now. We don't live in Sikh Monarch where things like blasphemy were taken seriously. Seriously if this prof dude was in india, people wouldn't have cared for him or gave two hoots about it. When i speak to normal nitneemi banda from india they just can't seem to fathom were all this tamasha gets started in abroad. They make comments like- you guys don't have anything better to do.

Look guys, i won't say pro dasam granth sahib parchar isn't be done or anything. All the things are done intensively, massive credit to them but somewhere along the line we got carried away and we get ourselves in this big mess. These people who went to protest instead of taking approach of dhakha, they should have used that energy to distribute pamphlets to pro dasam parchar and akaal takht hakumnama to normal sangat in and out who were not aware of it and let readers decide.

Somethings aren't in our control. On that day, we may be successful stopping prof darshan singh who was not there anyway (probably sitting home watching all this tamasha) but the fact is, we may have stopped him that day, but now he is bigger than ever in toronto. Our people made these anti dasam people victims, victims as always gain sympathy in media and else where. Most of radio stations, newspapers in Toronto are now in favor of victims. History is witness, take any example of any killing of an hostile cult leader, as soon as that happens, that cult leader is made to be- martyr and followers of hostile cult gets replicated like cockroaches and they get more power than ever.

[dalsingh101]

Someone should maybe explain this position on SS, so the dimwitted over there don't start a 'media campaign' that shoots us squarely in the foot again?

[Xylitol]

This clearly shows anti dasam granth people have edge over us and having last laugh in Toronto. Lets recap just last week events, anti dasam granth people barred entry to sikhs in to gurdwara (which is open to everyone by sikh standards) but by law standard (private property) which got few ultra orthodox sikhs riled up and use violence but ending up stabbing of man with kirpan. Darshan and his party used this event to gain momentum and sympathy in their cause and made us looks like fanatics and then using sympathetic media to spew peace of crap article like above.

They are playing hardcore politics here. Ultra orthodox ankhi singhs should learn something from this, times are different now so they must preserve their bir ras energy and use it somewhere else and must respond to these guys with chankya type politics.

Media finally found their imaginary divide between moderates and fundamentalist within sikhs to be real now.

I also think it's important when mentioning this protest incident that people are aware that Lehar centre members had weapons, were waiting, and incited and attacked the Singhs first. What wrong the panthic singhs (THAT SMALL HANDFUL THAT ACTUALLY DID THE WRONG)did is not erased by that fact, but instigation and pre-emptive attack are big public relations blunders by Lehar Centre. There are 3 eyewitness statements posted in the comments on thelangarhall.org that support this view. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot by propagating what Lehar Centre supporters have been saying.

By the way, Prabhjot Singh is writing an English translation of Critropakhyan on sikh sangat, so once that's done we can spread it at nagar kirtans. Perhaps by romanizing the Gurbani to prevent beadbi???

[SAadmin]

I also think it's important when mentioning this protest incident that people are aware that Lehar centre members had weapons, were waiting, and incited and attacked the Singhs first. What wrong the panthic singhs (THAT SMALL HANDFUL THAT ACTUALLY DID THE WRONG)did is not erased by that fact, but instigation and pre-emptive attack are big public relations blunders by Lehar Centre. There are 3 eyewitness statements posted in the comments on thelangarhall.org that support this view. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot by propagating what Lehar Centre supporters have been saying.

By the way, Prabhjot Singh is writing an English translation of Critropakhyan on sikh sangat, so once that's done we can spread it at nagar kirtans. Perhaps by romanizing the Gurbani to prevent beadbi???

You are right they had weapons. I am not sure who instigated the fight. From law point of view, these protesters were trespassing into the private property as gurdwara is private owned by these guys. We all know gurdwaras is open to sangat and its place of worship. But law considers it to be private property as its register as such. I don't think who instigated the fight would be looked at in this case. If this was United States, and private owner sees group of people coming to their property, owner can fire a gun at them and justify later they felt threatened. Anyway regardless, whoever instigated it, attacking any individual with kirpan is totally out of order especially where it register as article of faith/symbol not a weapon. I understand there are claims that person who attacked with kirpan had bipolar disorder while i don't dispute that but question obviously comes in mind, how this individual arrived at the location despite of his condition. Obviously there was an intent.

[dalsingh101]

You know what Xy, be careful not to justify the approach of the more hot headed amongst us. This needs round condemning, even if we are on the same side of the DG debate with them.

If not they'll simply fall into the next contrived trap set by the next anti-Sikh phudhu and have Sikhs all over the national media again. Some of you lot may as well write a personal cheque into Kim Bolan's bank account.

The other idea of Sikhs having to go through white courts to straighten out theological issues is just so dumbass, it is unbelievable.

The truth is that Sikh attempts to resolve issues physically have blown up in their faces be this in (India) Ludhiana, or Toronto (Canada) or Birmingham (Britain). That isn't to say that I disagree with challenging, just needs to be done smarter. There is a stereotype of a savage, unsophisticated, patriarchal, violent Sikh that gets played out every time this happens. We have to combat that.

I'm saying overall globally, we need to find a smarter way of conflict resolution.

[tonyhp32]

Dalsingh,

We were lucky in the UK with the Behzti incident as some parts of the media as well as the government didn't go out of their way to demonise Sikhs. That's not to say that the luvvies didn't try their best. Behzti was pre-7/7 and I think the media and general public are much more likely to give us a hard time if something similar happened now. Also the media was aware that it was pretty much a Bhatti vs rest of the Sikhs affair but with Darshan Singh it will be portrayed as a Sikh civil war especially as DS has a support base however small. Bhatti could never be portrayed as having Sikh support for her drama.

I think it's time for the pro-DS people to rethink their strategy. If DS is coming to a 'private' Gurdwara then start a campaign to inform the sangat what kind of institution it is. Let the sangat vote with their feet. If a radio or satellite channel supports him then do the same with that station. Westerners have no interest in whether Dasam Granth is Gurbani or not. If you take away the Sikh audience then what has DS or any other person like has got?

I know there have been toing and froing similar to Niddar's so-called Hadh Torh challenges but does anyone know whether DS has been challenged to a debate and whether he is shying away from one. The easiest way to take away his thunder is to show that he is unwilling to debate or even defeat him in a debate.

[Xylitol]

I agree, that incident needs to be roundly condmened, and I do condemn it.

Darshan has been invited to a number of debates, never bothered to engage in them though. He knows that they would easily defeat him.

Protesters need to hand out flyers etc. at programmes where Darshan does kirtan. :Hand out Maskin ji's katha cds on chritropakyhan. Hand out print outs of Prabhjot Singh's translation of chritropakhyan (maybe romanize the Gurbani in case Darshan's supporters decide to get their hands on them and throw themn in the trash).