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Chritropakhyan - English Translation And Explanation

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I guess it would be easier to understand equality between Man vs Woman if we really understand the whole context.

Everywhere in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, men and women are given equal rights. These rights are references to the point that both Men and Women are being driven by a Soul which doesn't have any gender. And therefore both have equal rights in terms of Spiritual power/capacity. The persons who look down upon women as inferior are wrong; exactly the same way it is wrong to look down upon the poor. As God has given the equal right to Women to merge with Him; then there is NO point for us (physical beings) to treat women as inferior and subordinate roles. Guru Ji teaches equality among all (caste, gender, religion, and so on) at the Spiritual level (Soul level). Bottom line is that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has showed us that all these things (caste, GENDER, creed, religion) are created for the sustenance of this Universe and are bound to trap us on this plane. The whole intention of Guru Granth Sahib is to teach us that He is One and we all come from Him and we are supposed to go back to Him and we can do it.

But at the same time, we cannot deny that there are some physical, biological and physiological differences between Man vs Woman. e.g Physical strength of Men are more in general (exceptions are always there); Women in general have more balanced Right and Left brain hemispheres so therefore can get Intitutive more easily (again exceptions are there). There are more agreed differences between the male and women. The following links have already listed those in details:
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/823
Abstract could be found at: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/02/men-women-brains-wired-differently
http://www.elsevier.com/connect/can-brain-biology-explain-why-men-and-women-think-and-act-differently

So, it means there are differences in Man vs Women in this Earth Plane; there are some things which Men cannot do but it is natural for Women and vice-versa. But God did NOT create these differences (Gender, Caste, Creed, Religion); it is our thinking facility (Mind as we know it; or say Kal the so-called Devil created by the God Himself and given the rulership of the lowe planes: Physical, Astral, and Causal, Mental) creating these illusions (this physical world in itself a illusion). The intention of these differences is to bound us with Karma which eventually binds us to the lower planes and continue the cycle of 84 lakh.

So, for me: Yes, there are some big differences between Men vs Women on this plane but debating about those means that we haven't understood the real aim of the life. My point of view in regards to Panj Payaras is that: Women cannot be part of Panj Payaras; the reason is Guru Ji might have specifically asked for woman's head (even though they were cooking food and taking care of children at that time) but He didn't and Guru Ji's intention was NOT to show the equality of gender or religion. His intention was to create a group which would fight for poor's right but at the same time be Spiritual and for that reason Man seemed to be a good fit as they were given more physical strength physically. Isn't this something like what we say in this physical world as: When there is fire, you cannot dig a well for water and then stop the fire; you're supposed to use whatever means you already have at that point to stop the fire. Same way, as Men were already programmed to be more physically strong, more ready to tolerate the war environment and so on. Basically, that's the way they were designed by the Kaal. Also, at-least I have not heard of any Guru or Karak Mahapurash being a women but it does NOT mean that women can't become Saint/Sant. May be it's easier to teach this male dominated world being a Male itself?

Bottom line is: Beyond the Mental plane there are no genders and all of our debate around anything involves the thinking facility which is still under the rule of Mind. We've got to use Mind for our Spiritual benefit and go beyond it and not the other way around. But as long as we are in lower planes (Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental) we are bound with the Rules laid down for the said planes and it would be better for us if we wisely use those rules for our Spiritual benefit (which is the Aim of Life) instead of debating about those.

That's all from my side.
das

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I guess it would be easier to understand equality between Man vs Woman if we really understand the whole context.

Everywhere in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, men and women are given equal rights. These rights are references to the point that both Men and Women are being driven by a Soul which doesn't have any gender. And therefore both have equal rights in terms of Spiritual power/capacity. The persons who look down upon women as inferior are wrong; exactly the same way it is wrong to look down upon the poor. As God has given the equal right to Women to merge with Him; then there is NO point for us (physical beings) to treat women as inferior and subordinate roles. Guru Ji teaches equality among all (caste, gender, religion, and so on) at the Spiritual level (Soul level). Bottom line is that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji has showed us that all these things (caste, GENDER, creed, religion) are created for the sustenance of this Universe and are bound to trap us on this plane. The whole intention of Guru Granth Sahib is to teach us that He is One and we all come from Him and we are supposed to go back to Him and we can do it.

But at the same time, we cannot deny that there are some physical, biological and physiological differences between Man vs Woman. e.g Physical strength of Men are more in general (exceptions are always there); Women in general have more balanced Right and Left brain hemispheres so therefore can get Intitutive more easily (again exceptions are there). There are more agreed differences between the male and women. The following links have already listed those in details:

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/2/823

Abstract could be found at: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/02/men-women-brains-wired-differently

http://www.elsevier.com/connect/can-brain-biology-explain-why-men-and-women-think-and-act-differently

So, it means there are differences in Man vs Women in this Earth Plane; there are some things which Men cannot do but it is natural for Women and vice-versa. But God did NOT create these differences (Gender, Caste, Creed, Religion); it is our thinking facility (Mind as we know it; or say Kal the so-called Devil created by the God Himself and given the rulership of the lowe planes: Physical, Astral, and Causal, Mental) creating these illusions (this physical world in itself a illusion). The intention of these differences is to bound us with Karma which eventually binds us to the lower planes and continue the cycle of 84 lakh.

So, for me: Yes, there are some big differences between Men vs Women on this plane but debating about those means that we haven't understood the real aim of the life. My point of view in regards to Panj Payaras is that: Women cannot be part of Panj Payaras; the reason is Guru Ji might have specifically asked for woman's head (even though they were cooking food and taking care of children at that time) but He didn't and Guru Ji's intention was NOT to show the equality of gender or religion. His intention was to create a group which would fight for poor's right but at the same time be Spiritual and for that reason Man seemed to be a good fit as they were given more physical strength physically. Isn't this something like what we say in this physical world as: When there is fire, you cannot dig a well for water and then stop the fire; you're supposed to use whatever means you already have at that point to stop the fire. Same way, as Men were already programmed to be more physically strong, more ready to tolerate the war environment and so on. Basically, that's the way they were designed by the Kaal. Also, at-least I have not heard of any Guru or Karak Mahapurash being a women but it does NOT mean that women can't become Saint/Sant. May be it's easier to teach this male dominated world being a Male itself?

Bottom line is: Beyond the Mental plane there are no genders and all of our debate around anything involves the thinking facility which is still under the rule of Mind. We've got to use Mind for our Spiritual benefit and go beyond it and not the other way around. But as long as we are in lower planes (Physical, Astral, Causal, and Mental) we are bound with the Rules laid down for the said planes and it would be better for us if we wisely use those rules for our Spiritual benefit (which is the Aim of Life) instead of debating about those.

That's all from my side.

das

WJKK WJKF

Das Ji,

I agree with vast majority of what you said... except that Panj Pyare today are not a mere reenactment of the original five. Or else the castes that were not included in the original five would also be excluded now (as caste and gender are seen in same light - as you said both are created differences in this world only.) I appologize I made a mistake on the original 5 castes earlier when I said Jatt was not in original five... anyway you got what I meant I hope (note: original five were: khatri, jatt,water carrier, clothes washer, or barber. What about a Chumar (shoe maker) or Tarkhan?). If the Panj Pyare now must be an exact replica of the original (as you said, Guru Ji did not call a chumar or tarkhan and he could have), then we cant treat gender any different than caste, and so those castes that were not in the original five would also need to be excluded as well... but they are not. And nobody disputes them being able to at all. It's only gender that is disputed. And then following on as exact replica of the original event if that's what we are doing, we should also include a Singhni to take the part of Mata Ji putting the patashes in the amrit. But we don't... Why is that??

Panj Pyare should not be chosen based on gender, or any other physical attribute. They should be the five most spiritually active members in the sangat, and there is an exact process that is actually used. If those five are all men, then fine, if they are women, fine, if they are a mixture then fine... But let's say a small sangat only has a few Amritdhari members, a few men and a few women. Let's say the women are far more spiritually active then the men... is it right to choose the less spiritually active males over the women who are har more spiritually active (perhaps some males who don't even take their Amrit commitment seriously) simply because they are male? I think that would be doing a disservice since Amrit is by its nature a very spiritual experience.

But Amrit Sanchar is not about the phsyical at all. And if Guruji intended for women not to participate as Khalsa (where men / women would fight side by side equally) then women would never have been given Amrit at all. Because the entire Khalsa is supposed to fight... not just the Singhs. It wasn't only Panj Pyare that were to be his army, but the entire Khalsa panth and that includes women, so I don't believe it had to do with physical strength at all.

Anyway, I agreed with most of what you said about the planes, due to some experiences first hand, I know that we as humans co-create our own reality. Maybe more women need to stand up for ourselves instead of feeling like victims and then we will start to be seen more in that light? (btw I think I said in the other thread I am career military... and I'm only 5'2" tall :) and not afraid to fight for what is right and to defend.) I was just trying to offer my views on why possibly more examples were used in Dasam Granth of women acting like that, when we know that males generally speaking are the more sexual gender. It didn't add up right, unless you take their situation into account. Then you begin to see that its not about the women... or the nature of women... if Guru Ji did write it, it was about the human power struggle and lack of equality that causes these things to happen. That's all.. I was trying to see past the overtly sexist (at first glance) writing.

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Try telling that to women who are executed for 'suspicion' of adultry - even though in most cases she did nothing. Or honour killings... or being beaten in public by Mutaween for simply being in public without a male 'guardian' (keeping in mind a widowed woman with no son has nobody who could even act as mahram for her meaning she is a prisoner in her own home and unable to even obtain basics of food, clothing etc.) Or tell that to the young girl who was shot by Taliban for simply going to school... do you really think these women and girls like the situation they are in? How in any way possible is that constructive for society as a whole (in history or now)?

You present more anecdotes of which you and I have very little understanding of. You don't live in those countries, you don't know what's going on in those environments. And I am damn sure that since you believe "men oppress women" that you will find it quite easy to over look actual reasons, to make the reality fit your own worldview.

And you have no knowledge of male suffering in these environments. You have no idea that it even exists. You will claim there is none, amirite?

Your whole perspective is wrong because it is lop-sided. If you think you are a spiritual person then it's your job to fix that and I am sure you will if you take the time to do some introspection.

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You present more anecdotes of which you and I have very little understanding of. You don't live in those countries, you don't know what's going on in those environments. And I am damn sure that since you believe "men oppress women" that you will find it quite easy to over look actual reasons, to make the reality fit your own worldview.

And you have no knowledge of male suffering in these environments. You have no idea that it even exists. You will claim there is none, amirite?

Your whole perspective is wrong because it is lop-sided. If you think you are a spiritual person then it's your job to fix that and I am sure you will if you take the time to do some introspection.

Ji I am not saying that men don't have issues... I am just saying that women certainly are not happy in these situations which themselves are lopsided. It was suggested that women want to be in these situations... no I don't think anyone (male or female) actually wants to be dominated. I know the men under Sharia suffer too... just not anywhere the amount of suffering the women are subjected to. (as an example a charge of adultry or suspicion of adultry often ends up the woman is executed where the man is not - yes sometimes both are killed... but more often the woman is honour killed.) The system itself is flawed that's why I said how can it be benficial at all to society??

And no I do not think all men are out to demean women :) that is silly thinking. I am not a man hater... contrary to what you think! You have me all wrong... I know plenty of men (Sikhs and non-Sikhs even some Muslims) who treat women as equals and see them as equals. It was generalization of those situations...

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur

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just not anywhere the amount of suffering the women are subjected to.

If we look at the rates of rates of violence, death and suicides in our society. We find that on average men are ones who are dieing more and suffering from more violence than women. (The rates of suicide for war veterans are much higher than the average male population.) In areas like Afghanistan and Iraq where the situation is much more hostile, where they might be at war or some conflict, where men are the protectors of society of women, elders and children. I would assume the rates of violence against men, male deaths and suicides are much higher.

I don't think you are a man hater. I am sure you are a beautiful being behind your posts. I just think you have been indoctrinated with a perspective that is not based on evidence/reality and is a distorted, lop-sided view of reality. The generalizations that come out of this perspective are plain wrong.

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Satkirin Kaur Ji,

I beg to differ on your point of view for Panj Payaras. Let us re-analyze the situation from another point of view.

What was the Intention of creation of Panj Payaras?
GuruJi's intention was neither creating a seperate religion nor creating Sants. There were many Sants at that time who followed previous 9 Gurus and various Bhagats.
He did created Khalsa because that was the need for the hour. GuruJi himself came to this physical earth to raise the oppressed. So, if He wanted to create a strong group whose memebers can fight for the rights of oppressed, then obviously He has adhere to the standards because He was in physical plane (otherwise, He could have saved all oppressed from Sachkhand itself). The standards (since the creation of human) dictates that men are of more physical power and women does have more love/pyar and intution. In all the history you can find that armies does involve men mostly but that does not mean women can't fight.
GuruJi made those standup who were from lower caste and they do understand how it feels to be oppressed and at the same time who does have the physical strength to endure the war environment AND at the same time who have already attained the level after which they could be given Naam Amrit and Gyan Amrit.
It is also important to note down that the feminine power was also used 2 times during Amrit Sanchar. First was when Khanda was used to prepare the Amrit; Kirpan/Sword/Khanda/Bhagauti/Shakti is the power in the Universe known as Shakti (do NOT confuse it with the some deities). Secondly, when MataJi poured Patashe in the Amrit so that the warriors also have the qualities of love. So, the creation of Khalsa was NOT about the Men vs Women; it was about who can do what.

So, in one line: The creation of Khalsa was the answer to the oppression; in which the Khalsa members would fight for the oppressed but at the same time be on the track of same path shown by other Gurus. The AVAILABLE ingredient for that was men (NOT The MEN) and women (in the form of sword and love).

Secondly, all the Panj Payars were given 3 Amrits at the time of creation of Khalsa; 3 Amrits were: Sanskar Amrit (as we know Amrit today); Naam-Amrit; and Gyan-Amrit. THe next set of Amrit was given to 40 Mukte but they were NOT given Gyan-Amrit, otherwise they would not have left Guru in the war. But these days, people think that they would have Khande-de-phul and Guru Ji would be happy; but the fact is that: they have taken only the Sanskar Amrit and that's from the 5 Payras (men or women) majority of which are no-where near the real Spirituality but that does NOT mean one should not take the Amrit.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said:
Khalsa is my special form I reside within the Khalsa.
HE means to the one who attains the Atam Rass and NOT just the Sanskar Amrit.

Also the defination of Khalsa as per Guru Gobind Singh Ji is:
Atam Ras Jeh Janye So Hi Khals Dev Prabh Meh Moh Meh Taas Meh Ranchak Nahin Bhed.
A Khalsa is the one who enjoys the Atam Ras (Gyan Amrit) – spiritual bliss – and who has been elevated to such a level that there is no difference between him, the SatGuru and Akal Purakh.

At last, please allow me to say something: If you think that you're attracted towards Amrit and in general towards Sikh, then I guess you might be wrong. May be in your previous life you were on Spiritual path and may be a Sikh who have undertook the Amrit (or not) but you had a wish to enjoy the luxury and western life. I guess it might be easier for you to verify it via Past Life Regression or may be via Obe. If I've said anything which I should not, then I'm sorry in advance.

das

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If we look at the rates of rates of violence, death and suicides in our society. We find that on average men are ones who are dieing more and suffering from more violence than women. (The rates of suicide for war veterans are much higher than the average male population.) In areas like Afghanistan and Iraq where the situation is much more hostile, where they might be at war or some conflict, where men are the protectors of society of women, elders and children. I would assume the rates of violence against men, male deaths and suicides are much higher.

I don't think you are a man hater. I am sure you are a beautiful being behind your posts. I just think you have been indoctrinated with a perspective that is not based on evidence/reality and is a distorted, lop-sided view of reality. The generalizations that come out of this perspective are plain wrong.

I am not sure what you are saying then? I was generalizing because the stories in dasam granth in my opinion were more about the situation those women were thrust into, where they obviously felt for some reason they could not obtain what they wanted without somehow influencing the men. The only conclusion is that they were somehow in a subordinate position where they had no authority to make things happen on their own. The only other way to look at those stories is what they appear to be saying on the surface... that women are inherently vile and deceiving and immoral.

So I am not sure what you are trying to say... that the women in dasam granth in those stories were in that position because it was best for society? But, if they were happy and had their full needs met and their voices heard, they would have no need to influence anyone, lease of all by using sex. So are you saying that dasam granth is instead saying what it appears outright? That women are vile and immoral? Forgive me Das Ji... I am just trying to understand your views on the chritropakhyan... because that is what I was trying to generalize. Unlike many women who can't see past the apparent sexism in this writing, I tried to look past it and see the metaphor, refusing to believe that Guru Ji would think of me as inherently immoral and vile and deceiving. (because I am none of those things.... I am not perfect... far from it, but I do try to maintain high morals.)

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May be Chritropakhyan is supposed to warn the warriors/rulers (who are mostly men) that women and liquor are one of the most common things that they should watch for. My thinking is that: Men easily fall off for women and the women working against the empire could very easily take advantage of this. As it could be verified in the history that there were number of cases where great Emperors lost the wars because of the women who acted to get the secrets. But that does NOT mean all women are vile. As you're working in Navy/Military, you might have been instructed not to trust anyone or everyone when in war but that does NOT mean that everyone is bad out there. I hope you get the point.

Secondly, it's good idea to know when was women created and what she hide from the world. And at-last why it is being said (in ancient world) that once the girl is married she is supposed to follow the husband's desire. I am NOT saying that one should do it.

When Kaal did the bhagti of God and asked God how to proceed creation. Then God created Maya and instructed her (not yet female) to go to Kaal and be with him and create creation. She went to Kaal and then both created creation. When Brahma, Shiv, and Vishnu were born she (Maya) never told them about the original Sat-Purash. In other words, she lied to them. I've written the above line very briefly but if you're interested then you can read the Anurag Sagar by Bhagat Kabir ( http://www.santmat-thetruth.de/tl_files/allgemein-content/schriften/pdf/books/anurag-sagar-en.pdf )

das

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At last, please allow me to say something: If you think that you're attracted towards Amrit and in general towards Sikh, then I guess you might be wrong. May be in your previous life you were on Spiritual path and may be a Sikh who have undertook the Amrit (or not) but you had a wish to enjoy the luxury and western life. I guess it might be easier for you to verify it via Past Life Regression or may be via Obe. If I've said anything which I should not, then I'm sorry in advance.

das

WJKK WJKF,

Das Ji, you know its actually very strange, once I found Sikhi, I felt like I have done this all before... like it was not foreign to me at all. I have always been very spiritual right from birth. I can't explain, but I rejected Catholicism when I was only 8 years old... and my Father had actually studied to be a Catholic Priest before he decided he wanted a family instead... so you can imagine how religiously Catholic he actually was! But I knew my path was different. And I started to have OBEs happen on their own at age 8... that same point in time. But I had other things happen even younger. I have had instances where in meditation, I can actually 'see' pretty much physical see but with my eyes closed another place. I focused until it was clearer. I have done this on numerous occasions... I think it maybe remote viewing?? But the OBEs I know for sure because they happened so often. I know without any doubt that the physical is not all there is. I have felt during simran the ONEness of everything... I can't even explain... like I still retain knowledge of who I am physically but I just felt like connected to everything... and not just everything but everywhen too... Its so hard to put into words. And I have a feeling like the truth is only barely out of reach... like I can almost touch it its so close... but there is only some very thin veil preventing me from seeing it in it's entirety.

So I think I was in fact on this path before... perhaps I was also a male and not female... because I just do not feel the typical nurturing that most women have. I have never been attracted to babies.... or domestic work. On the other hand I feel completely at home with jobs where I am the one doing the protecting (military), even my volunteer work in the community where I basically respond to medical emergencies at community events. I have an affinity for jobs that are high adrenaline like fire fighting (which I have to do in the Navy) and sea survival, and damage control on board ship. I actually became one of the very first women to qualify to serve on submarines in Canada, and I am still only one of a few in the entire world who can do this. Yet I feel awkward around children, and find it hard to explain things to them, but teaching classes in the military where there is a set discipline I feel at home. I think inside I am male... do you think its possible? That I retained the male energy and even though I have a female body I somehow never got the female energy?? No matter what I am... it's exactly how Waheguru wanted me to be... everything is his Hukam...

Either way, for Amrit... it was never a question... something much greater than myself is orchestrating it... there was never any question of doing it or not... it was just a matter of when and how to get somewhere where there were more than only a couple of Amritdharis available. I feel like someone else is the 'doer' and I am just going along with it like its supposed to happen. Does it make sense? btw I still like being female too... we have nicer clothes ;) hehe.

btw I am really enjoying this forum as I am deeply into the spiritual interpretation of Gurbani. Even if we disagree on some minor points like Panj Pyare, but we both have the choice to take Amrit from whatever Jatha or group we want. So if you feel you need 5 men, then you are free to do it from a group who does that. While I am free to take it from a group who allows both male and females. Like you said, its not just the Amrit sanchar anyway... and taking Amrit is only one step. I intend to take my journey all the way this lifetime if its at all within my possibility. I have a deep longing I can not explain, to realize my true self... like I have amnesia, and want so badly to wake up. This feeling is with me every single day.

Gurfeteh!

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WJKK WJKF,

Das Ji, you know its actually very strange, once I found Sikhi, I felt like I have done this all before... like it was not foreign to me at all. I have always been very spiritual right from birth. I can't explain, but I rejected Catholicism when I was only 8 years old... and my Father had actually studied to be a Catholic Priest before he decided he wanted a family instead... so you can imagine how religiously Catholic he actually was! But I knew my path was different. And I started to have OBEs happen on their own at age 8... that same point in time. But I had other things happen even younger. I have had instances where in meditation, I can actually 'see' pretty much physical see but with my eyes closed another place. I focused until it was clearer. I have done this on numerous occasions... I think it maybe remote viewing?? But the OBEs I know for sure because they happened so often. I know without any doubt that the physical is not all there is. I have felt during simran the ONEness of everything... I can't even explain... like I still retain knowledge of who I am physically but I just felt like connected to everything... and not just everything but everywhen too... Its so hard to put into words. And I have a feeling like the truth is only barely out of reach... like I can almost touch it its so close... but there is only some very thin veil preventing me from seeing it in it's entirety.

So I think I was in fact on this path before... perhaps I was also a male and not female... because I just do not feel the typical nurturing that most women have. I have never been attracted to babies.... or domestic work. On the other hand I feel completely at home with jobs where I am the one doing the protecting (military), even my volunteer work in the community where I basically respond to medical emergencies at community events. I have an affinity for jobs that are high adrenaline like fire fighting (which I have to do in the Navy) and sea survival, and damage control on board ship. I actually became one of the very first women to qualify to serve on submarines in Canada, and I am still only one of a few in the entire world who can do this. Yet I feel awkward around children, and find it hard to explain things to them, but teaching classes in the military where there is a set discipline I feel at home. I think inside I am male... do you think its possible? That I retained the male energy and even though I have a female body I somehow never got the female energy?? No matter what I am... it's exactly how Waheguru wanted me to be... everything is his Hukam...

Either way, for Amrit... it was never a question... something much greater than myself is orchestrating it... there was never any question of doing it or not... it was just a matter of when and how to get somewhere where there were more than only a couple of Amritdharis available. I feel like someone else is the 'doer' and I am just going along with it like its supposed to happen. Does it make sense? btw I still like being female too... we have nicer clothes ;) hehe.

btw I am really enjoying this forum as I am deeply into the spiritual interpretation of Gurbani. Even if we disagree on some minor points like Panj Pyare, but we both have the choice to take Amrit from whatever Jatha or group we want. So if you feel you need 5 men, then you are free to do it from a group who does that. While I am free to take it from a group who allows both male and females. Like you said, its not just the Amrit sanchar anyway... and taking Amrit is only one step. I intend to take my journey all the way this lifetime if its at all within my possibility. I have a deep longing I can not explain, to realize my true self... like I have amnesia, and want so badly to wake up. This feeling is with me every single day.

Gurfeteh!

Great way to explain your point Satkiran ..highly impressed ! :)

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WJKK WJKF,

Das Ji, you know its actually very strange, once I found Sikhi, I felt like I have done this all before... like it was not foreign to me at all. I have always been very spiritual right from birth. I can't explain, but I rejected Catholicism when I was only 8 years old... and my Father had actually studied to be a Catholic Priest before he decided he wanted a family instead... so you can imagine how religiously Catholic he actually was! But I knew my path was different. And I started to have OBEs happen on their own at age 8... that same point in time. But I had other things happen even younger. I have had instances where in meditation, I can actually 'see' pretty much physical see but with my eyes closed another place. I focused until it was clearer. I have done this on numerous occasions... I think it maybe remote viewing?? But the OBEs I know for sure because they happened so often. I know without any doubt that the physical is not all there is. I have felt during simran the ONEness of everything... I can't even explain... like I still retain knowledge of who I am physically but I just felt like connected to everything... and not just everything but everywhen too... Its so hard to put into words. And I have a feeling like the truth is only barely out of reach... like I can almost touch it its so close... but there is only some very thin veil preventing me from seeing it in it's entirety.

So I think I was in fact on this path before... perhaps I was also a male and not female... because I just do not feel the typical nurturing that most women have. I have never been attracted to babies.... or domestic work. On the other hand I feel completely at home with jobs where I am the one doing the protecting (military), even my volunteer work in the community where I basically respond to medical emergencies at community events. I have an affinity for jobs that are high adrenaline like fire fighting (which I have to do in the Navy) and sea survival, and damage control on board ship. I actually became one of the very first women to qualify to serve on submarines in Canada, and I am still only one of a few in the entire world who can do this. Yet I feel awkward around children, and find it hard to explain things to them, but teaching classes in the military where there is a set discipline I feel at home. I think inside I am male... do you think its possible? That I retained the male energy and even though I have a female body I somehow never got the female energy?? No matter what I am... it's exactly how Waheguru wanted me to be... everything is his Hukam...

Either way, for Amrit... it was never a question... something much greater than myself is orchestrating it... there was never any question of doing it or not... it was just a matter of when and how to get somewhere where there were more than only a couple of Amritdharis available. I feel like someone else is the 'doer' and I am just going along with it like its supposed to happen. Does it make sense? btw I still like being female too... we have nicer clothes ;) hehe.

btw I am really enjoying this forum as I am deeply into the spiritual interpretation of Gurbani. Even if we disagree on some minor points like Panj Pyare, but we both have the choice to take Amrit from whatever Jatha or group we want. So if you feel you need 5 men, then you are free to do it from a group who does that. While I am free to take it from a group who allows both male and females. Like you said, its not just the Amrit sanchar anyway... and taking Amrit is only one step. I intend to take my journey all the way this lifetime if its at all within my possibility. I have a deep longing I can not explain, to realize my true self... like I have amnesia, and want so badly to wake up. This feeling is with me every single day.

Gurfeteh!

Great way to explain your point Satkiran ..highly impressed ! :)

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I am not sure what you are saying then?

I am talking about the tinted lens you are wearing, which you keep using to interpret all these stories you hear about different cultures and scriptures.

Women forced into subordinate roles by Patriarchal society still have the same wants and needs as men (I don't mean sexually... I mean they have the same desires to pursue careers, make a difference in the world, have input in society, be treated and respected as equals) But forced into a subordinate role in a society where she is seen as nothing more than a tool for men's pleasure and not even as a human in some cases... then in order to have any sort of say in society at all, her only means is to influence the men in her life. It's that or basically be shut up and be a slave. Her choices in that system are either shut up and be miserable and never have her voice heard, revolt (as in the case of the feminism movement - and risk punishment), or quietly influence the decisions of the men she has access to do so by deceiving them.

To which Dally replied

One problem I have with the general argument outlined above is that when we compare the reaction of females in other communities, which are arguably even more suppressive than our own to women (lets say certain Muslim communities), I don't see the level of subversion alluded to above being demonstrated by those females.

To which I replied

Societies and the roles of individuals within the society, formed based on their needs at the time. They sought out the best approach that would protect their children and take care of their elders, to ensure the survival of the society. Both men and women took on roles that if we say are "suppressed" are suppressed due the stresses placed on the society.

One-sided views like "men are oppressing all women" and "women's roles are subordinate" lack a clear understanding of the motives of our ancestors both men and women. And is not only an insult to men but is also an insult to women, who've been participating in the system as much as men if not more.

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A lot of very interesting and pertinent points (for us today) are being broached here. Let me backtrack a bit and respond to some points:

Of course they are... as humans we are equal and so we are equally capable... but it's just that in Dasam Granth, women are used way more in the examples. It doesn't make sense since generally speaking, we know biologically, women have an easier time to control lust than men... and that it's usually men doing the seducing and not the other way round (not an attack on men at all... its just biology that they want it more) so to have an entire section in Dasam Granth apparently stating the opposite just doesn't make sense...unless it's speaking of specific circumstances.

I think that is a massive misconception myself. Having worked in many offices in the UK, where the culture is more permissive, I know that there are PLENTY of highly sexed, nymphomaniac women across all age groups The truth is probably that women are better adept at concealing their lust than men, probably because they would be judged more for it than men!

I think CP is multidimensional myself. Example: whilst men and their evils (across genders) are pretty evident and obvious (rape and physical abuse, kidnapping and general domination etc.), the reverse side to this coin is rarely explored. C.P does this, albeit dramatically. It IS about manipulative women, it IS about lust-filled women. Underlying it is a very good grasp of evolutionary psychology. It highlights the pitfalls of rich, powerful men and young beautiful wives. It also highlights the resentment many beautiful, powerful women feel when their advances are rebuffed and the process of vilification and rage that often takes place in this scenario.

Maybe CP is hard to grasp by many westerners because of the way they are used to women persistantly being framed in terms of victim-hood (i.e. delicate damsels in distress, awaiting knights in shining armour etc.)

And yes in certain circumstances, women who are dominated into subservient roles by men, can and do use the one thing that men want more, as a means to get their own needs met. It's the only bargaining chip they have in that situation...it's an examination of that circumstance rather than women in general. And as was stated in the OP the answer is equality between gender, which has always been the teaching in Sikhi. So when we examine that specific situation and circumstance, the seeming disagreement between DG and SGGSJ is rectified... because the teachings of the Gurus has always been that women are equal in all respects to men and deserve equal opportunity.

Maybe it's also about redressing the imbalance of women generally being clued up about many men and their manipulative ways (not all mind you, as many grooming cases of gullible Sikh girls prove...), with a window on the female equivalents?

If I had understood the thrust of CP when I was much younger, I might have saved myself from a lot of uncomfortable situations....

It is seriously relevant. You might be clued up about manipulative and abusive men, but believe you me, a lot of us guys are oblivious to the female equivalents. Guru ji didn't leave us wide open to this thankfully.

Both women and men are fully capable of evil. What CP does is strip away the idealistic, puerile conceptions of women which are themselves usually based on dominating men's fantasies about how they wish women were.

I put a lot of ideas out there, not sure if they are coherent. lol

Edited by dalsingh101

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Dally I think those are good points.

Men often tend to elevate the status of women above their own, feeling they are not worth her sexual interest unless they do something for her e.g. take her out on dates, give them things, own certain things/status. Since men hold women higher than themselves, they feel they are not worthy until they are higher status or until they provide and protect or do something to the woman.

"delicate damsels in distress, awaiting knights in shining armour"

The underlying theme for men here is that - the knight, the man is not worthy of that woman's love until he risks his own life to save her.

"men's fantasies about how they wish women were"

It's not that they wish this, it's more like they actually think that's how women are. That's how they relate to women who they might be interested in. They mistake the outer beauty for inner beauty. And women just add to this, they use various methods to further enhance their outer beauty to strengthen the illusion. They tend to put on fake smiles the most and tend to act all nice even when they maybe brooding inside.

"I think CP is multidimensional myself. Example: whilst men and their evils (across genders) are pretty evident and obvious (rape and physical abuse, kidnapping and general domination etc.), the reverse side to this coin is rarely explored."

Quite an important point.

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I am not sure if it is relevant to post this here but regardless I would do it. You must have heard of 'Chetan Maya' ? This is the form that Maya takes to steal celibacy/brhamcharya/jat sat of rishi munis/tapasvis etc.

Growing up I read stories of Mahapurakhs who were faced with chetan maya and passed the tests. Even Mahatma Buddha had to face it before his enlightenment. And then Mahapurash like Baba Nand Singh Ji, Baba Harnam Singh Ji Rampur khede wale. They also had to face such tests. And then Bhagat Kabir Ji wants to cut the nose of Maya.

And then the chetan maya was behind the great epics such as Mahabharata and Ramayana. Dropati and Sita.

Here is an analogy that just came to my mind. When you open up a medical pathology book you will come across some rare diseases that you never have heard of . But nonetheless having their knowledge is important for the professional to create a differential diagnoses. And most probably only the professional pathologist/doctor will be able to understand those.

Similarly, Guru ji has created this CP for those who are mature, responsible, of the highest spritual avastha and for the one for whom knowing the details are important to pass the test imposed by chetan maya in many forms. So if a nursery, kindergarten student opens up this chapter, his mind will be boggled and his/her own impurities will come in front of her consciousness disabling that person to see clearly. And since everybody is unique, each person will form their own beliefs, notions.

But the Bhagats who know nothing, and are immersed in love will have no doubts in the works of Guru Ji, for they are the ones saved from chetan maya by Guru Ji .

just my random thoughts !

And yes, I also have had a personal experience of a charitar myself. Everything was suger coated so well, so blinded , when in fact i was drinking poison, made to believe something which was never there, and definitely if i knew that such characters can exist, i would have passed tht test , and my life could have been different, this ws 10 years ago. so having a knowledge of CP and being aware of it, can help in ones spirituality.

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WJKK WJKF

My issue with it being just a way to warn males about the wiles of women and their decving and sexually deviant ways is this:

At that time, the prevailing view of women was exactly that anyway. It was common thought / knowledge amongst society at that time that women were an obstruction to men's spirituality and it was even thought that women did not attain mukhti until they were first reborn in a male joon... Yes it was Brahmanistical thinking, but was very much prevalent in the minds of society at that time. So I find it hard to believe that Guru Ji, would need to reiterate what was the common thought about women anyway, especially when ALL the Gurus emphasized that men and women were equal and they elevated women's status beyond this thinking. Wouldn't that only serve to destroy the advances they previously made in this area? Since if we take the meaning to be as you say... a warning to men about women... then wouldn't that just put more negative thinking in men's minds about women, thereby destroying everything they did previously to elevate the status of women, by reinforcing the previously held notions about women being an obstacle to men's spirituality due to their immoral nature? Isn't that just Brahministical thinking resurfacing?

Forgive me if I have said something wrong... I am not in any way attacking men... it just doesn't make sense to me . I am more inclined to believe and agree with what the OP has said about the deeper meaning and message that equality is what is required for society to advance.

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur

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My issue with it being just a way to warn males about the wiles of women..

Maybe it's not about women per se, maybe it's about certain types of women?

It's like, not all men are rapists and paedophiles but pretending these types do not exist and not taking the necessary precautions to protect yourself and your family against such types in fear of offending men who aren't like that is foolish.

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Try telling that to women who are executed for 'suspicion' of adultry - even though in most cases she did nothing. Or honour killings... or being beaten in public by Mutaween for simply being in public without a male 'guardian' (keeping in mind a widowed woman with no son has nobody who could even act as mahram for her meaning she is a prisoner in her own home and unable to even obtain basics of food, clothing etc.) Or tell that to the young girl who was shot by Taliban for simply going to school... do you really think these women and girls like the situation they are in? How in any way possible is that constructive for society as a whole (in history or now)?

Although these are extreme examples you have used, I wouldn't try and compare islamic societies to Sikh societies at all.

I agree with vast majority of what you said... except that Panj Pyare today are not a mere reenactment of the original five. Or else the castes that were not included in the original five would also be excluded now (as caste and gender are seen in same light - as you said both are created differences in this world only.

You keep coming back to this caste thing to back your views. Did the 5 pyare lose their caste status after taking amrit? Their caste was irrelevant to their volunteering to Guru Ji's call. If you want to take this view, then some one will pipe up, that only the castes from their respective places should be used, as the 5 pyare were from all over india. Then someone will probably ask their age, marital status...

The caste issue is not an issue when forming the Panj.

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The Gurus gave women equal status but then this work is used as justification to further lower their status...

Guru Sahib gave the female equal status in spirituality. How could Guru Ji give the female equal status in everything, when the Creator has done otherwise?

It doesn't make sense since generally speaking, we know biologically, women have an easier time to control lust than men... and that it's usually men doing the seducing and not the other way round (not an attack on men at all... its just biology that they want it more) so to have an entire section in Dasam Granth apparently stating the opposite just doesn't make sense...unless it's speaking of specific circumstances.

I wouldn't say that women can control their lust any better, rather that women may have less periods of lust than man. Is this also showing and warning men that women can take advantage of their lust, without being lusty themselves?

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You keep coming back to this caste thing to back your views. Did the 5 pyare lose their caste status after taking amrit? Their caste was irrelevant to their volunteering to Guru Ji's call.

The caste issue is not an issue when forming the Panj.

Exactly, and neither should gender. That was my point. That's its silliness. All such distinction that caused inequality were removed with Amrit... And everyone emerges as absolute equals as khalsa. Panj is selected as the five most spiritually active. Caste, gender, colour, etc don't matter. You just agreed that it's not an exact reenactment of the original...because it would be silly to try. You played right into my point! I was showing how silly the idea of barring women using this reasoning was. We need to get away from this I am you are egotistical thinking.... No more I am this you are that, I am better than you because... We need to get rid of this ego.

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur

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Guru Sahib gave the female equal status in spirituality. How could Guru Ji give the female equal status in everything, when the Creator has done otherwise?

Are you saying men are superior because they are physically stronger (usually?) does physical brute = superiority over other virtues like intuition and intelligence? How can you say that physical strength is what Waheguru Ji looks at as what makes someone superior to another? (Easy to do when you are in the group you are trying to say is superior... This "I am" "You are" thinking... Is this not EGO?)

Where did this notion that our Creator values physical strength over everything else come from? Our Gurus did not say anything at all to that effect, unlike Christanity and Islam for example.

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur

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I wouldn't say that women can control their lust any better, rather that women may have less periods of lust than man. Is this also showing and warning men that women can take advantage of their lust, without being lusty themselves?

You seem to have no issues pointing out women's flaws but get defensive when someone points out your own. How many young men are sexually groomed by women? How many teenage girls pressure boys for sex before marriage? How many rape cases are women raping men vice men raping women?

When women use sex as a means to try and influence men (as in those stories) it has nothing at all to do with lust.... They aren't doing it because they are craving sex. They were not even necessarily physically attracted to those men. They were using the one thing they know men want, as a means to get their own desires met. In other words they were using men's own lustful ways against them, in order to influence them to do things.

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Are you saying men are superior because they are physically stronger

Nope.

does physical brute = superiority over other virtues like intuition and intelligence?

Nope

How can you say that physical strength is what Waheguru Ji looks at as what makes someone superior to another?

I havent said anything about physical strength.

Where did this notion that our Creator values physical strength over everything else come from?

I don't know since I don;t really subscribe to that thinking.

Maybe it would be better if you undrerstood what I had written, and also try not to be so arrogant to presume anything.

I stated that the Creator has created Man and Female differently, and you went off on one talking about strength.

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