Chritropakhyan - English Translation And Explanation

[chatanga1]

Exactly, and neither should gender. That was my point. That's its silliness. All such distinction that caused inequality were removed with Amrit... And everyone emerges as absolute equals as khalsa. Panj is selected as the five most spiritually active. Caste, gender, colour, etc don't matter.

You have added the gender, like, in 2014. If women were allowed to have served as Panj, it would have been recorded in history, but even through the Khalsa- life period of the 10th Guru, the times of Mata Sundari, Bhai Mani Singh, Nawab Kapur Singh, Baba Deep Singh, Sultan Ul Quam, etc there has never been one recorded instance of women serving in Panj. During these times, it cannot be said that there weren't any Sikh women who were part of the misls, or ruling classes, so women weren't hidden away at home either.

These Sikhs knew more than you or i will ever know. Thats good enough for me to maintain the viewpoint that women should not serve in Panj.

Whilst someones caste may be removed with amrit, nobody lost their gender due to taking it. No Sikh man could marry another Sikh man could they?

Remember your point about how the women must have been making langar whilst Guru Ji made his call? That was the height of silliness..

You just agreed that it's not an exact reenactment of the original...because it would be silly to try. You played right into my point! I was showing how silly the idea of barring women using this reasoning was. We need to get away from this I am you are egotistical thinking.... No more I am this you are that, I am better than you because... We need to get rid of this ego.

What YOU really need to get rid of is the mindset, that as a newbie to Gurmat, you presume to have all the answers. Or label traditions observed since inception as silly. 2 of Guru Ji's wives outlived him for almost 30 years. They played a leading part in the Sikh Panth, yet never was any effort made to do what you are saying. I think that speaks for more than anything.

It's best to leave this topic, I had not wanted to continue this topic further on the last thread, but as you mentioned it here, I thought it best to reply. You will not find much, if any, support for your thinking on this topic here, so maybe it's best to discuss with the akj you mix with.

[chatanga1]

You seem to have no issues pointing out women's flaws but get defensive when someone points out your own.

Please show me where I have pointed out women's flaws.

How many young men are sexually groomed by women? How many teenage girls pressure boys for sex before marriage? How many rape cases are women raping men vice men raping women?

I don't know why you feel the need to ask me these questions. I said :

"I wouldn't say that women can control their lust any better, rather that women may have less periods of lust than man."

Why you pulled these questions out makes me think that you are possibly looking for stuff that doesn't exist.

When women use sex as a means to try and influence men (as in those stories) it has nothing at all to do with lust.... They aren't doing it because they are craving sex. They were not even necessarily physically attracted to those men. They were using the one thing they know men want, as a means to get their own desires met. In other words they were using men's own lustful ways against them, in order to influence them to do things.

This is the point I made in an earlier post. This is what the CP is warning men (mostly) and women about. That your lust can be your downfall.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Well we can agree to disagree on the Panj Pyare... obviously many Sikhs do agree women can... and that's why SRM states it can be any baptized Sikh, male or female. Its a moot point when the rehet maryada states it can be either! You have the choice to take Amrit from a more restrictive jatha who think men are more privileged than women, and I have the choice to take Amrit from a jatha (or none at all) who see men and women as equals. There is no harm done! How panj even got brought into this thread is beyond me...

Guru Sahib gave the female equal status in spirituality. How could Guru Ji give the female equal status in everything, when the Creator has done otherwise?

This is where you intimated it... that males and females are equal in spirituality only, but right there you stated that how can Guru Ji give equal status to gender when the Creator has not... you said the Creator has done 'otherwise' (intimating lack of equality) - The only things which differ besides the obvious biology, are that men have more physical strength, and women are better at intuitive problems, can track more tasks at once (thats why women actually come out ahead of men as fighter pilots... aside from the Gforce effects that is... but the women can track more contacts at once, maintaining 3d spacial awareness. Men have a more difficult time tracking multiple contacts. Just a military tidbit...) So who is to say which ability is worth more? Physical strength, or mentally demanding tasks? Neither is... They are just different... different however, does not mean one should have privilege over the other. And then what about the crossover? The men who are better scientists but lack physical prowess, and the women who are strong fighters? This is why everyone no matter what should be treated equally.

And women have been acting as Panj long before 2014. Its not new... I have a whole folder filled with photos of Panj Pyare which included women I could post. Only some are 3HO (in case you are wondering). There are plenty of photos from India as well. So it's not an issue of yes or no they aren't allowed. The short answer is, yes women are 'allowed' just as much as men are 'allowed'. I am not the only one to think so...or else it would not specifically be mentioned on the SRM that Panj Pyare / Granthi during Amrit Sanchar can be either male or female. - Only in a couple of jathas are they barred from this seva....and we all have choice of where we take Amrit. If women want to take amrit where women can be Panj Pyare, then they an just avoid DDT, Sant Samaj etc. The fact that women can do this is not hurting anyone in those jathas at all.

Forgive me if I have said something wrong.... I am only posting facts. The reasons given by both sides that I have read on numerous sites and the facts that the SRM should have cleared up, being the basic panthic rehet maryada. We can agree to disagree without name slinging like 'arrogant' can't we? (btw I have been studying Sikhi and the philosophy in Gurbani for about 18 years now. SO even though I am just about to take Amrit, I am not really new to it.)

As for the original post... I agree with your last line. It's a warning to men (and women) to not allow their lust to be their downfall, but also there is a deeper message to not put people in the position where they would even think they would need to use someone's achilles heel (lust) against them in the first place. As the original poster said... equality is the only answer for progress.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[chatanga1]

How panj even got brought into this thread is beyond me...

You brought it in.

This is where you intimated it... that males and females are equal in spirituality only, but right there you stated that how can Guru Ji give equal status to gender when the Creator has not... you said the Creator has done 'otherwise' (intimating lack of equality

I said it, yes, but it could be taken either way, as woman having better attributes than man over some things and vice versa. The fact that you looked at it from one angle only tells us something.

Physical strength, or mentally demanding tasks? Neither is... They are just different..

Exactly, without making someone better or worse.

And women have been acting as Panj long before 2014. Its not new... I have a whole folder filled with photos of Panj Pyare which included women I could post.

They may have, it would make no difference.

[chatanga1]

I felt like I have done this all before...

Just to deviate from this topic a little, but you know, I feel like I have done this all before, with a person like yourself who had found a new faith, and like many newcomers, either went in at the deep end, or tried to see the philosophy with her own personal bias. Unlike you however, she actually prided herself on being a member and eventually escaping the akj and embracing some vaishnav path. Her next step was to come here and try and tell us all how wrong we were.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Just to deviate from this topic a little, but you know, I feel like I have done this all before, with a person like yourself who had found a new faith, and like many newcomers, either went in at the deep end, or tried to see the philosophy with her own personal bias. Unlike you however, she actually prided herself on being a member and eventually escaping the akj and embracing some vaishnav path. Her next step was to come here and try and tell us all how wrong we were.

Don't worry... I have been studying Sikhi for about 18 years... Not exactly new at it. I am not leaving... And don't get me wrong... Please I am not a man hater... I just think we all should be treated equally, even with our biological differences. I mean equal opportunity. I have been pulled to Sikhi from when I was young and have never deviated. I treat everyone equally whether man or woman. They get the same respect .., I consider neither one an authority over the other. It's an equal partnership in this life. Is that so bad? I have never had an issue. Now I have met a Sikh man and we are doing Amrit together actually as we feel that will solidify our journey together in life and in Sikhi. And he considers me his absolute equal... He would never think of ordering me around etc. it's a bit late for marriage as we are both late 30's and I have been alone nearly my whole adult life (not even dating) but I know this path is the right one... I can't explain, it's like I have been before.

I guess my unique position gives me insight into the faith without the cultural influence which may not be part of the actual Sikh teachings. My hopefully soon to be husband is punjabi btw.

With much respect chatanga Ji I am not looking to make enemies... Just don't want to be seen or respected as less than men because I happened to be born with two X chromosomes this time.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Satkirin_Kaur

[BhagatSingh]

Just to deviate from this topic a little, but you know, I feel like I have done this all before, with a person like yourself who had found a new faith, and like many newcomers, either went in at the deep end, or tried to see the philosophy with her own personal bias. Unlike you however, she actually prided herself on being a member and eventually escaping the akj and embracing some vaishnav path. Her next step was to come here and try and tell us all how wrong we were.

I know who you are talking about, I read all her debates on this forum and others. And she was right, you guys do have it wrong. I don't think she ever left Sikhi, she just ditched the institutionalized, the organized religion. She stayed with the actual, with what she believed was the pure puratan form of Sikhi from the time of Gurus. Things have changed Chatanga, sikhs were a very different bunch back then.

[jaikaara]

I know who you are talking about, I read all her debates on this forum and others. And she was right, you guys do have it wrong. I don't think she ever left Sikhi, she just ditched the institutionalized, the organized religion. She stayed with the actual, with what she believed was the pure puratan form of Sikhi from the time of Gurus. Things have changed Chatanga, sikhs were a very different bunch back then.

I had the privilege of meeting her

[hsingh135798642]

Sikhi says all are equal just leave it at that see the light of Akaal Purakh in everyone.... Tired of people using this fact of Sikhi and twisting it around for petty matters. Men and woman are equal but they are different. Nothing wrong with that of is the way Waheguru created us..

.

[chatanga1]

I had the privilege of meeting her

interesting, tell us more.

I know who you are talking about, I read all her debates on this forum and others. And she was right, you guys do have it wrong. I don't think she ever left Sikhi, she just ditched the institutionalized, the organized religion. She stayed with the actual, with what she believed was the pure puratan form of Sikhi from the time of Gurus. Things have changed Chatanga, sikhs were a very different bunch back then.

agree that sikhs were very different back then, but we still were not vaishnavs back then, now or ever, so she didnt stay with the actual, and she wasn't right either. Vaishnav-ism is not the pure puratan form of Gurmat.

[BhagatSingh]

agree that sikhs were very different back then, but we still were not vaishnavs back then, now or ever, so she didnt stay with the actual, and she wasn't right either. Vaishnav-ism is not the pure puratan form of Gurmat.

The original form was pure vaishnav and this form is captured perfectly in Guru Granth Sahib. And she saw this quite clearly and tried to explain it to everyone in all kinds of forums. At the time she was doing this, I was oblivious to what was in our book. It was not until much later, after I made my own journey, did I come back to her posts and confirmed them.

[chatanga1]

The original form was pure vaishnav and this form is captured perfectly in Guru Granth Sahib.

No it isn't. Unless your a vaishnav masquarading as a Sikh.

[BhagatSingh]

No it isn't. Unless your a vaishnav masquarading as a Sikh.

Well, I could be wrong.

[mantu145]

Some good references on Sri Dasam Granth

1) Dashmesh Darpan tey Sri Dasam Granth di Kunji

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2013/03/dashmesh-darpan-tey-sri-dasam-granth-di.html

2) Sassi-Pannu - As featured in Dasam Granth

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2012/09/sassi-pannu-as-featured-in-dasam-granth.html

3) Guru Granth tey Panth - Gyani Sher Singh

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2013/03/guru-granth-tey-panth-gyani-sher-singh.html

4) Vismad Naad November 2007 (Special Sri Dasam Granth issue)

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2013/05/vismad-naad-november-2007-special-sri.html

5) Devi Pujan Partal Bhai by Veer Singh

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2013/06/devi-pujan-partal-bhai-by-veer-singh.html

6) Durga Prabodh

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2014/03/durga-prabodh.html

7) Krishna Leela Rahas (Brahm Gyan di Kunji No.1) - Sher Singh MSc Kashmir

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2014/03/krishna-leela-rahas-brahm-gyan-di-kunji.html

8) Charitropakhyan dey vichaar adarsh - Dr Gurcharan Singh Mehta

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2014/06/charitropakhyan-dey-vichaar-adarsh-dr.html

9) Dasam Granth da mahatav - Dr. Gurcharan Singh Mehta Tract No. 493-494

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2014/06/dasam-granth-da-mahatav-dr-gurcharan.html

10) Dasam Gur Gira Prakashak Granth - Gyani Sahib Singh

http://sikhdigitallibrary.blogspot.in/2014/12/dasam-gur-gira-prakashak-granth-gyani.html

[CdnSikhGirl]

Quoted from the OP by Xylitol .... So much truth in this!!

" The only motive of writing ‘Chandi Charitar’ in the beginning of this composition is to state that the real image of females in the mind of the poet is not of a sexual nature. That form is only created by wealthy people and pleasure-seeking libertines like King Chitr Singh. In her true form, she adopts that active force which is fully capable of eradicating all crimes and evils from this world. On one hand, there is a social structure that gladly hands her the sword for the destruction of tyrants, and also gives her equal opportunities to excel and touch the peaks of success in all walks of life. On the other hand however, there is that primitive male-dominated social order which treats her like an object of sexual desire and keeps her confined to the parameters of the house. Such social structure pushes her towards destructive activities. Her extremely sharp intellect and limitless strength is capable of breaching walls of the house; even in that confinement, she has the capacity to destroy the biggest of kings, wealthy and powerful people without using even a single weapon. Therefore, it is up to the male society to decide whether it wants to choose destruction or progression. The path of equality of men and women leads to progression, while inequality will most certainly bring about destruction and chaos. If male society chooses the road of progression and gives her equal opportunities in constructive tasks, evils, oppressions, and immorality will be destroyed. But, if she is sidelined and forced to live under shadow of males, she will keep reminding male society of her limitless force even while treading on the path forced upon her. Male writes at length about her characters, yet he is the one responsible for her destructive form. When male society is aware of the fact that female intellect is capable of transforming any impossibility into plausible situation, then why does it look down on women?"

Edited October 25, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[chatanga1]

http://www.vidhia.com/index.php?q=f&f=%2FBani%2FSri+Dasam+Granth+Sahib+with+Meanings

 

A good pdf to read about Sri CharitroPakhyan.

[Ragmaala]

Going to save all these to my iPad