Gangu Brahmin Real Or Fictious Character

[kdsingh80]

I always thought that Gangu brahmin was the person

who betrayed Mata Gujri ji and sahibzada's but now somewhere I read that their was no such person.According to Piara singh padam it was masands who got the arrested

Katha Guru ji ke sutan ki

(Manuscript no. 6045, now lost from Sikh Reference Library, Harimandir Sahib, Amritsar)

(The story of Guruji’s sons)

Krit Bhai Dunna Singh Handooria

Written by Bhai Dunna Singh of Handoor

Jo jo beeti kahat hon, Gur charnan dhar dhian

Whatever happened do I narrate meditating on Guruji’s Charan (feet)

Mai balak laghu mat sum am, katha rachis u jaan.

I am just a child, I am dim witted, I wrote this story knowing this.

GeeaMalti (a meter)

Sri Fateh Singh, Zorawar Singh bahur maat ji bhanan

I mention Sri Fateh Singh, Zorawar Singh and Mata ji (Gujri ji)

Dunna Singh takhaan sikh Handoor vasi ta gannan

(count amongh them also) Dunna Singh a sikh of carpernter caste resident of Handoor.

Sabh ek daasi, panch thay, Chamkaur te yah dwai hatey

All of us along with a servant were five in number, the two groups (Sahibzade and Mataji in one group, the servant and Dunna Singh the other) who separated near Chamkaur(from main Sikh group).

Dunna Singh jo ek daasi tisi bhajar mai satai.

Dunna Singh and the lone servant remained together in that very stampede.

Dohara (couplet)

Tahaan(near Chamkaur) khel aisey bhaey mo pai kahio na jai

The events that unfolded there, I find difficult to narrate.

Bahuro katha su kahat hoon, sant sunauh man laiye.

Even so, I narrate the story, listen intently O sanits.

Ik sakka Hindu tahin aahee, Turk zor tih janam wataee.

There (near Chamkaur) was a Hindu water carrier who under Muslim pressure converted his life (converted to Islam)

Kummey te Keema tih keena, tishi ke graih basa leena.

He had changed his (Hindu) name Kumma to Keema, we took refuge in his house.

Tahaan ek brahmini rahai, Lachhmi naam taas jag kahai

There (probably in the same village)lived a Brahmin lady who was known as Lachhmi

Wah parsad kar hamey jivavey, tis ke graih mai aap liavey

She cooked food for us to eat that she brought from her home for us.

(The Muslim water carrier probably took care and arranged that guests don’t have to eat food cooked by a Mulsim or from the kitchen of a Muslim)

Dohra

Doi mohar ki aarsee, panch choorian saath

A ring with inset mirror worth two gold coins along with five bangles

Tisee brahmini ko dayee jo parsad waih khwaat

Were given to that Brahmin lady who served food.

Rupiah panch sai tis dayyo Keema naam ju ahi

Five hundred rupees were given to the person whose name was Keema.

Tin jo mastak tek kai, leen tabahai utthai.

He bowed (to Mataji) and picked it there and then.

Abai katha ik awar janaoon, jo jo beeti sabhai sunaaoon.

Now I narrate another story and describe whatever happened.

Doi masand Saheri rahain, ik Darbari, Dhooma kahain

Two Masands lived in the village Saheri, one was Darbari and the other was known as Dhooma.

Sortha

Tiney suni yah baat tahan khed aisey bhaio

They heard about this and the events unfolded thus.

Aiyo tit he dhai jo kit hoon koyoo paeeyai

They dashed to that place so that they could gain something.

Sri Mataji ar Fateh Singh ek ghorey pai charhai

Sri Mata ji and Fatey Singh rode one horse

Zorawar Singh ju pai khurji awar ghorey pai charhai.

Zorawar Singh ji carrying the leather money bag (Khurji) wearing across his body rode another horse.

Chamkaur tey jab gayey Chauntey (a village on the way to Saheri), dusht ke man yah bhayee

When them moved from there to Chanuta, the evil one thought thus.

Yah drab hamary haath ayio, mord tab ghar ko layee.

This money is in my hand now so he turned towards his home.

Sortha

Dusht chit bharmai mataji ko im kahai

The evil one changed mind and spoke to Mataji thus.

Turk jo utraey ayey Ropar teer ju yah sunee

The muslims have arrived and encamped at river bank at Ropar I have heard.

Hamra chaara nahi jo tumrey man so kahaun

It is not in our power (to face them) rest is upto you to decide.

Agey dhareyh na pai, le javaingaih pakar tum

Let us not move forward a step otherwise they will arrest you and take away.

Chamkauraih pahunchao mata ji aisey kahiyo

Take us up to Chamkaur, thus said Mataji.

Dera awai tahain bahur jaan na pawho

The camp (of Guruji) would arrive there and we don’t want to go anywhere else.

Dohra

Tab mata bilkhi bhayee jiun janau tin keen

Then Mataji cried and told him to do as he thought fit.

Tab dushtatam yah kahee mam graih chalo parbeen.

Then the evil soul suggested thus, ‘Let us go to my house to safety’.

Chaupaee

Jab Turk apne graih jawain, tab ham tum ko ghar pahunchavain.

When the mulslims would go to their homes we shall take you to your house.

Im kahkai tab ghar lai ayio, bhayee rain parsad karayo.

Having said that he brought them to his house. As night fell he served them food.

Laheyer ki roti karee, masree ki kari daal

He served Laheyer (kind of millet) bread with Masar daal (red lentils)

Thaali mahi so paikey lai ayio tatkall.

He placed it in a metal plate and brought immediately.

Chaupaee

So roti aisee kar liyaio, hamrey kaag na kookar khayio

The food he brought was such that in our houses even crows or dogs wouldn’t eat.

Tab mata aisey bikhlaani, bhokhow kuir dekh kumlani

Then Mataji was so perturbed on seeing the hungry princes (Sahibzadas)

Dohra

Mataji aisey kahio muhar ek lai jaao,

Mata ji said thus, “Take this one gold coin”.

Jo pakwan tum dekhaho, so parsad lai aahau

Whatever sweets you may see bring that to eat.

Sortha

Patasey ser duey aah, lai ayio masand tab.

Then Masand brought in patashas (sugar bubbles) two seer (one kilo)

Kachhuk chhakey tis mahi awar rahai tis thaur.

Some out of this were eaten the rest remained there.

Sortha

Dusht chit kudharm, tehal na keeni prem saun

The evil mind became immoral and did not serve them loveingly.

Abai sunaoon aur jo jo agey kart hain

Now I shall narrate what else they do further.

Chaupaee

Bhayee rain khurjee tin leenee ja kar choey maih gadd deenee.

When night fell he took the leather money bag and buried it in the rivulet nearby.

Mur ayio tab apney dwara, bhayee bhor tab pher sidhaara

He came back to his home and at dawn he went there again.

Dohra

Dab ayey sukki nadi neer vahio taihn ayey

He had buried (the money bag) when the rivulet was dry but (during the night suddenly) water flowed there.

Jis ki vast so tin layee, masand muey pachhtaye

He (God) who had given this gift took it away the evil Masands only had to moan.

(When Mataji asked the Masands about the money bag the embarrassed masands got further irritated and sent Mataji along with Sahibzadas to Sirhind )

Do the scholars on Sikhawareness have any idea whether it was Gangu Brahmin or masands who betrayed Guru ji

[dalsingh101]

What's the source of your information?

[amardeep]

Where is this from

[kdsingh80]

What's the source of your information?

I read it on in an old discussion on sikh net.Unfortunately know one replied to this post.Then i searched Google but found Nothing apart from some khalistani sites blaming Gangu Brahmin without any source,that's why I posted it on this site because I know people here have very good knowledge of old scriptures of sikhism

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

I read it on in an old discussion on sikh net.Unfortunately know one replied to this post.Then i searched Google but found Nothing apart from some khalistani sites blaming Gangu Brahmin without any source,that's why I posted it on this site because I know people here have very good knowledge of old scriptures of sikhism

Nihang Singh oral tradition blames Gangu, Ratan Singh Bhangu blames Gangu, Kavi Santokh Singh blames Gangu.

[BhagatSingh]

Well Masands were all Brahmins, so "Gangu Brahmin" is not too far off. But we would have to check the original sources to know whether it was Masands or Gangu or whatever.

[dalsingh101]

Well Masands were all Brahmins

,

That's totally untrue. Where did you get that info from??

Masands appear to be a mixed bunch including Khatris and Jats.

[BhagatSingh]

I'm basing it off their duties, which resemble those of a Brahmin.

Masands appear to be a mixed bunch including Khatris and Jats.

Where are you getting that from?

[bhooliya]

Hello,

Let's solve our own issue. The Gangu issue is a mystery. People are divided on this now as more research is coming out. The main issue in accepting Gangu as Brahmin and house cook of Guru Gobind Singh will question the status of our own Guru. Had he appointed Brahmin to serve food to his family?

Here is how it goes:

1. Gangu was Brahmin so blame all Brahmins.

2. Rama Randhawa/ Prakash Singh Badal are/were Jats so blame all Jats.

3. Giani Jail Singh was Takhaan/Ramgaria so blame all Tarkhans of UK/India

4. Chandu was Khatri so blame all Khatris.

Our logic is very twisted.

Who was Gangu? A cook in the house of Guru? So, Guru didn't have any singh available to prepare food hence he chose a Hindu Brahmin to serve? Logic please?

Who killed Alexander the great's father? Logic please

Bhai Singha was real in Sikh history though!

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhai_Singha_Purohit

Blog I found while searching for Gangu: http://brahminsikh.wordpress.com/punjabi-book/

[Guest]

bhooliya, veerjio welcome back yaar...leave me the message where i can reach you for bachan bilas..hehe..its been long time.. :D

[jaikaara]

Perfect ! Bulls eye ! And we can keep blaming brahmins forever using them like dead horses and keep flogging them. We forget that even Bhai Mati Dass ji was brahman ..from Banjaras and Sikligars to Rajputs and Brahmans we have had all of them contributing their share to Sikhi ..so why then do we not curb this pindu jatt mentality of hating communities ?

Hello,

Let's solve our own issue. The Gangu issue is a mystery. People are divided on this now as more research is coming out. The main issue in accepting Gangu as Brahmin and house cook of Guru Gobind Singh will question the status of our own Guru. Had he appointed Brahmin to serve food to his family?

Here is how it goes:

1. Gangu was Brahmin so blame all Brahmins.

2. Rama Randhawa/ Prakash Singh Badal are/were Jats so blame all Jats.

3. Giani Jail Singh was Takhaan/Ramgaria so blame all Tarkhans of UK/India

4. Chandu was Khatri so blame all Khatris.

Our logic is very twisted.

Who was Gangu? A cook in the house of Guru? So, Guru didn't have any singh available to prepare food hence he chose a Hindu Brahmin to serve? Logic please?

Who killed Alexander the great's father? Logic please

Bhai Singha was real in Sikh history though!

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhai_Singha_Purohit

Blog I found while searching for Gangu: http://brahminsikh.wordpress.com/punjabi-book/

[BhagatSingh]

Jaikaara,

Bhai Mati Das, Sati Das and Dyala ji were all Brahmins. And don't forget the around 15 or so Brahmins contributed to Guru Granth Sahib, including Guru Ramanand who was a teacher to many of the other contributors. There is a huge positive contribution from Brahmins in our community.

But I don't think KDS opened the thread to malign Brahmins, I think he genuinely wanted to gain info on the Gangu character.

Edited September 10, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[jaikaara]

Yea true, i didnt mean so . The thing we have to make efforts to have caste heirarchy erased. Just as you see during the times of the Gurus , the last names remained and at times even ethnic identities but never was it considered a issue . There is a sakhi of Guru Gobindsingh ji which shows that steel should always be respected . Guruji addresses the Sikligar sikh as 'Marwari Sikh' . So nothing high and low has any place .

[BhagatSingh]

jaikaara i have given you a in-depth reply here: http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/15254-caste-hierarchy-explained/

In short Caste hierarchy cannot be erased, you can only seek to purify it. I.e. get the right people (for the job) to do the job.

[Singh123456777]

Jaikaara,

Bhai Mati Das, Sati Das and Dyala ji were all Brahmins. And don't forget the around 15 or so Brahmins contributed to Guru Granth Sahib, including Guru Ramanand who was a teacher to many of the other contributors. There is a huge positive contribution from Brahmins in our community.

But I don't think KDS opened the thread to malign Brahmins, I think he genuinely wanted to gain info on the Gangu character.

Isn't shaheed dyala das the brother of Bhai mani Singh?How was he a Brahmin then?

[BhagatSingh]

Its possible I read this incorrectly

Bhai Mati Das (Punjabi: ਭਾਈ ਮਤੀ ਦਾਸ) is one of the greatest martyrs in Sikh history. He along with his younger brother Bhai Sati Das and Bhai Dyal Das, all disciples of the ninth Sikh Guru, Guru Tegh Bahadur (1621–1675), were executed along with him at the Kotwali(police-station) near the Sunehri Masjid in the Chandni Chowk area of Old Delhi, under the express orders of emperor Aurangzeb.

So he's a kshatriya it seems. I stand corrected.

[Singh123456777]

Its possible I read this incorrectly

So he's a kshatriya it seems. I stand corrected.

Tgere are some scenarios where he is from farmers family.He is for sure the real brother of Bhai mani Singh.

[BhagatSingh]

Tgere are some scenarios where he is from farmers family.He is for sure the real brother of Bhai mani Singh.

Yeah but they seem pretty certain that Bhai Mani Singh was a kshatriya. And it fits into my theory that most if not all of the Singhs during Guru Gobind Singh ji's time were from Kshatriya background. And that it was later one during Banda's time when jatts and other peasants started becoming singhs.

Bhai Mani Singh was born as Mania (Mani Ram) in Alipur village of Multan district(now in Punjab, Pakistan) in a Rajput family. The full record can be found in the 'Vahi of Bhatts',who maintains the family records of Rajputs from Marwar and Mewar. There is now uncertainty about the exact year of birth of Bhai Mani Singh. - wikipedia

Edited September 15, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[dalsingh101]

Bhagat, in relation to the thing we were working on.

I think Bhai Mani Singh was first portrayed to be a Jat by Giani Gian Singh, by his claiming descent from Bhai Mani Singh's family. Remember, this is quite a late account. There are a few brief studies that look into this and it's generally felt that Giani did this to raise the prestige of his background/family which is very common Panjabi obsession.

The most contemporary account, Kesar Singh Chibber's Bansavalinama Dasan Patshahian Ka (1769); states Bhai Mani Singh was a Kamboj.

http://sikhinstitute.org/april_2013/13-mohanbir.html

Edited September 15, 2013 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

And it fits into my theory that most if not all of the Singhs during Guru Gobind Singh ji's time were from Kshatriya background. And that it was later one during Banda's time when jatts and other peasants started becoming singhs.

You'll have more than a hard time supporting that theory. Sikh society was a mixed one well before dasmesh pita.

[BhagatSingh]

Dally

You would have to look at his original clan name before he changed it to Singh, to know for sure.

We know he is not a Dullat Jatt:

ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਦੁੱਲਟ ਹੋਣਾ, ਕੇਵਲ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਸਿੰਘ ਦੁੱਲਟ ਦੇ ਲੇਖ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ, ਅਨੇਕ ਸੱਜਣ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਕੰਬੋ ਵੰਸ਼ ਵਿੱਚ ਮੰਨਦੇ ਹਨ | ਇਕ ਸੱਜਣ ਨੇ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਕਾਨੇ-ਕਾਛੇ ਦਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਹੈ

from that article

One source claims that it is Mani Ram from Bhatt Vahis. We know Ram is a kshatriya clan. Also there's the Chibber's claim that he was a Kamboj (ਕੰਬੋ) - Kamboj was also a Kshatriya clan.

The Kambojas (Sanskrit: कम्बोज, Kamboja; Persian: کمبوہ‎, Kambūh) were a Kshatriya tribe of Iron Age India, frequently mentioned in Sanskrit and Pali literature. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas

Also, I am not talking about the whole sikh society here, I am talking about a particular portion of it that Dashmesh pita recruited into his army, those who became Singhs. So you have to remember that sikh composition may not represent the composition of Singhs because those are two different groups under different conditions.

But anyway, even though, I believe most of them were kshatriya, there may have been other non-kshatriya clans amongst them.

Edited September 16, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[jaikaara]

To add to this confusion there is another view that Bhai Banda Singh Bahadur was brahman

[BhagatSingh]

Banda was mostly likely a kshatriya, as he hunted when he was young. Hunting would not fit into the Brahmin's set of duties. Anyways, I'd be interested in seeing a study of his ancestory, and what our scholars think his caste is.

[jaikaara]

Here it is mentioned Giani Budh Singh's view -

Giani Budh Singh a noted scholar of Poonch in his famous book Chhowen Rattan described Banda Bahadur as "Brahmin"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banda_Singh_Bahadur

[SikhKhoj]

- Banda Singh Bahadur was a Rajput from Jammu area. Bachittar Singh and Sangat Singh were both Minhas Rajputs from Jalandhar area.

- One will be amazed to know that most fierce warriors of Guru Hargobind Sahib were Brahmins.

- I'd put my bet on Kesar Singh being right, even though much of his writings are hearsay but he was a contemponary of Bhai Mani Singh. Besides that his ancestors were all Diwans of the Guru (even from the times of Guru Har Rai), his father was a Diwan during Guru Gobind Singhs time and took Amrit (along with his grandfather). Besides that, Kesar Singh can't have any malicious 'hidden agenda' to show Bhai Mani Singh as a Kamboj because he himself was a Chibber Brahmin.