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I think for the vast majority of purported cases, it is complete bullsh1te.

People do it usually to try and achieve something they just couldn't otherwise, and people also 'practice' it to fool gullible idiots into becoming their followers or making money by providing on the spot cures to problems. Frequently, those to who subscribe are in desperate situations, of simple backgrounds and/or of low intelligence.

Too often Panjabi people, especially the budhreean, blame any problems they have on it, especially family stuff. Women seem to be especially susceptible to fall under the influence of jadhogar types, although men aren't unknown to go into this stuff either. Causal factors of what happens around us are naively related to things that are in the jadoghars sphere of control and fools seem to believe that they can bend Waheguru's hukam at will.

If a person doesn't believe their dharam can protect us against such 'ridhian-siddhian' then I wonder how strong their faith is anyway?

In life sh1te happens sometimes and things don't go our way. Blaming it on black magic is, all to commonly, an idiots explanation of this natural phenomena.

Edited by dalsingh101

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Jadu-Toona is all too real and still prevails in most societies across the world, yes as Dal Singh says, there are fakers and sometimes people confuse general bad luck/karam for toona etc, but that doesn't mean many others do not fall victim.

Its a myth that simply being of the sikh religion or even following it varying levels is enough to protect you, one must have total love and strong rehit to achieve protection, the very minimum being stipulated by Kavi Santokh Singh is for one to have a NIT rehit of JapJi Sahib, done with devotion. All too often when a 'Sikh' becomes a victim, they become of followers of a Baba who eliminates teh problem, and loose faith in Sikhi as a complete power/protection. The sad thing here is that Singh sabha types are western scientific minded, so therefore do parchaar that it doesn't exist, those who are real victims therefore see the Sikh door as closed. Also, it is lack of understanding as to what is required for one to be a 'Sikh' and therefore achieve Gurus raksha. A Pag, regular visit to the Gurdwara, and I would say even being Amritdhari in some cases is not enough - a consistent effort towards improvement, a strong rehit, clean mind/heart, devotion/pyaar for the supreme are requried to achieve Gurus raksha.

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there are fakers and sometimes people confuse general bad luck/karam for toona etc, but that doesn't mean many others do not fall victim.

I don't doubt its possible existence but I disagree that 'many' people fall victim.

As a related side note, I was speaking to an African guy about this and he said he believed that western society has managed to eradicate/purge jadoghars types amongst them through their Christian inquisitions and 'witch hunts'. Personally I think they probably just killed off those that had what we could describe as their own preXstian 'puratan' belief systems and any promiscuous babes. Plus i'm pretty sure a good few warty old, loner buddhis got dunked to death also.

Edited by dalsingh101

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They do it because they believe they can practise evil without any consequence, because the workings of karma are not as obvious to them as PC Plod's truncheon, even though divine justice is inescapable and does not end simply because you are dead. They do it because they lack faith in Akal Purakh, and in the end, that is what destroys them.

K.

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Black magic is 100% fake. Not one time in the history of the world has there been any sort of black, white, yellow, green magic. What... cut off a chickens head and throw it on a tree and your friends wife gets PMS.... do you really think God makes things happen because of silly little magic rituals? Its fear, stuff happens... people dont understand.. must be magic!

Come on guys, get real.

Edited by W..

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I get your point. I suppose me saying it does or does not exist does not prove it one way or the other. It may, but I certainly don't believe it does. I would say this though, encouraging a belief in magic is encouraging something that continues to set people back. Even today people with serious medical disorders go visit people for magic healing and the like. It seems a rather dangerous thing to encourage. I watched this episode of taboo where entire villages of women exist in africa because they are accused of being witches and thus kicked out of their village. Because its black magic, you can't prove that they aren't really witches. So an attitude of "it may be true" is what what allows this travesty to happen... Ever heard of the salem witch trials? Some superstitions are harmless, and some are very dangerous.

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Black magic is 100% fake. Not one time in the history of the world has there been any sort of black, white, yellow, green magic.

Actually (and I think it was Joseph Campbell who pointed this out), it's only in our modern history (and it's something that is peculiar to our Western culture) that magic does not exist. It has existed throughout mankind's history.

Disbelief in such things is good until you become a victim of some malicious fool with a few petty siddhis, then it would be superstitious to think that a belief in an entirely material universe devoid of intelligence other than our own will be enough to protect you. Until then, disbelief is a great tool (as is avoiding the company of people who are known to practice black magic).

Go to Baba Wadbhag Singh's dera in India if you want to see people afflicted with these kinds of problems. Or stay in Haiti or Eastern Cuba for a while. (Incidentally, there is a great book called Divine Horsemen by Maya Deren that you might enjoy. It's about a writer who went to Haiti to make a film and ended up being "ridden" by a Loa, a deity of the Voudoun pantheon. It is available in English.)

Regards,

K.

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I understand your point. Its an argument that I cannot win. Black magic MAY exist. My belief on something does not determine the reality of the situation. I do think that belief in black magic has had a very detrimental impact on the societies in which it is common. When you consider magic to be the cause, you don't look for the source of the problem. I have also noticed that magic tends to occur in poorer, uneducated portions of the world.. ie: Haiti, cuba. Could it not be because those people ascribe supernatural origins to things that just have to do with proper medical care?

I see the point you are making. If black magic does exist I certainly hope I do not fall victim to it, but many more people IMO suffer from believing in magic compared to those who are actually afflicted by it.

You guys seem very secure in your views and I respect that, so lets put it to rest. You know how I feel, I know how you feel. Good discussion. :-)

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Why don't you see what Gurbani says.

One can aquire powers (riddian siddhian), this can be done by one with that exact objective, or it can be a by-product of Bhakti.

Powers can be used for good or bad.

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That may be the case.

I am supposed to be cramming for boards right now, so I am just going to put it to rest. At the end of the day there is so much stuff I need to work on with myself and learning about sikhi... something this esoteric is really like researching nuclear physics when I should be doing my algebra homework....

Thanks for the good discussion. I am promising myself I wont check this site again today... so I will leave it at that.

-W

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I understand your point. Its an argument that I cannot win. Black magic MAY exist. My belief on something does not determine the reality of the situation. I do think that belief in black magic has had a very detrimental impact on the societies in which it is common. When you consider magic to be the cause, you don't look for the source of the problem. I have also noticed that magic tends to occur in poorer, uneducated portions of the world.. ie: Haiti, cuba. Could it not be because those people ascribe supernatural origins to things that just have to do with proper medical care?

I see the point you are making. If black magic does exist I certainly hope I do not fall victim to it, but many more people IMO suffer from believing in magic compared to those who are actually afflicted by it.

You guys seem very secure in your views and I respect that, so lets put it to rest. You know how I feel, I know how you feel. Good discussion. :-)

Magic happens everywhere, it's just less likely to be reported in societies where to proclaim a belief in supernatural entities (other than Jesus) would likely result in ridicule or being rehomed in a mental asylum if you are persistent.

Anyway, black magic is not the kind of thing one can be convinced to believe in through discussion and debate, and it is probably better that way.

Time for bed!

K.

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I am supposed to be cramming for boards right now...

Good luck! Drink lots of almond milk (desi remedy for studying)!

You are right, it's better to concentrate on improving one's jeevan rather than being concerned about things that may never be relevant to 99% of the population.

K.

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Apnay bandey are the worst for this, i have seen whole lives destroyed through black magic. This is one reason i like goray because they will just say things straight apnay bandey will be nice in front of you and then do despicable things behind your back through petty jealousies.

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Apnay bandey are the worst for this, i have seen whole lives destroyed through black magic. This is one reason i like goray because they will just say things straight apnay bandey will be nice in front of you and then do despicable things behind your back through petty jealousies.

I found the opposite to be true. I don't know what kooti type of apnay you've been around?

For the most part, in almost every professional job I've done, I've seen goray act polite and nice to ethnic men to their face and then involve themselves in all manner of stupidity to try and make their life harder or get them removed, due to racist petty jealousy. In contrast, an apna is generally thick brained and can't be bothered (or capable) of this type of thing and just blurts out the insult to you.

Edited by dalsingh101

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"But how about evil eye? Nazaar"

Live a simple life. Don't entice jealously. Don't brag (don't speak excessively), try and keep your material possesions simple i.e. car, house, clothes etc. Celebrate and commiserate in a Gurmat fashion. Spend more of your time in khaalis sangat.

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*edited*

True, but in retrospect it was in bad taste

I disagree.

It wasn't true.

You ignored historical precedent and the impact of power differentials on racism. If you believe it to be true, at least have the backbone to keep your thoughts 'out there'. Honesty frequently wins over bad taste.

Edited by dalsingh101

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1. If some percieved misfortune befalls a person how does one tell whether is a/ black magic done by another b/ Nazar (evil eye) or c/ a saraf (curse)given by someone.

2. How would one go about removing this misfortune?

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"But how about evil eye? Nazaar"

Live a simple life. Don't entice jealously. Don't brag (don't speak excessively), try and keep your material possesions simple i.e. car, house, clothes etc. Celebrate and commiserate in a Gurmat fashion. Spend more of your time in khaalis sangat.

I AGREE WITH shaheediyan

jinna ho sakey dekhava zyda na karo

jithe evil de gal aaagae,jada manukh guru sahib nu ang sanag mun ke chaldaa eveil fr devil any may come they will run from that gurmukh..kis ich enney takahat ne jo gru de lal nu hath laaa lavey..

salok |

jeh saadhoo gobidh bhajan keerathan naanak neeth |

naa ho naa thoon neh shuttehi nikatt n jaaeeahu dhooth |1|

Shalok:

Where the Holy people constantly vibrate the Kirtan of the Praises of the Lord of the Universe, O Nanak

- the Righteous Judge says, ""Do not approach that place, O Messenger of Death, or else neither you nor I shall escape!""||

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I disagree.

It wasn't true.

You ignored historical precedent and the impact of power differentials on racism. If you believe it to be true, at least have the backbone to keep your thoughts 'out there'. Honesty frequently wins over bad taste.

In my experience its not something that can be discussed. Everyone has too strong of an opinion on it. The world is a big place and different parts of the world have different situations. I can only speak from my personal experience.

I can just see nothing good about discussing things like that, if I wasn't so stressed out I would not have written it. It will only debilitate into a rant and not contribute to the purpose of this forum.

Its not backbone, its respect. I have lots of opinions I keep to myself rather than start arguments that are pointless. I would fight with my fiance 24/7 if I didn't. :D

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In my experience its not something that can be discussed. Everyone has too strong of an opinion on it. The world is a big place and different parts of the world have different situations. I can only speak from my personal experience.

I can just see nothing good about discussing things like that, if I wasn't so stressed out I would not have written it. It will only debilitate into a rant and not contribute to the purpose of this forum.

Its not backbone, its respect. I have lots of opinions I keep to myself rather than start arguments that are pointless. I would fight with my fiance 24/7 if I didn't. :D

You can beat around the bushes as much as you want. Fact is, in the western corporate world and much of the regions politics, white racism is the rampant beast. You just have a choice of either acknowledging this or condoning and preserving it through silence or ignorance. Plus there is a whole body of respectable literature highlighting the mechanics of this insidious ideology. But I guess you want to be typically white and pretend it isn't happening. Oh well. Leopards and spots and stuff.

Have a look at this, it sort of highlights the development of this right-wing thought in India.

http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=13076

Edited by dalsingh101

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