Bhai Vir Singh On Devi

[Guest zulu]

Mod Note : Guys can you please stop insulting each other! If it continues I will be forced to lock the topic and rain thunder brimstone and fire on your behinds!(put people under mod for a set period of time)

I am very tolerant but this continuous slander of each other is just going too far and on too many topics, so do us all a favour PM each other if you want to continue insulting each other not on the topics.

Thank you

I hope you understand and I wasnt too harsh.

Zulu

Edited December 9, 2010 by zulu

[dalsingh101]

Harjas

Why not read what has been posted previously more closely? The ideas contained in the section entitled Devi in Hindu matt are not Bhai Vir Singh's, but rather the ideas embedded in white literature of the time. Seeing as Singh Sabha work was pioneering in nature (in terms of its interaction with the newly emerged world of western academia and its agendas and paradigms), it isn't any surprise that BVS used what was (at that time) considered to be the most up to date academic work on the subject at hand. We (or more accurately he) didn't have the benefit of the knowledge available today in terms of understanding racism and imperialism, there was no critical race theory then, no Edward Said etc. You need to take that into consideration. Plus I already pointed out that the information in that very brief section of the overall work stands annulled. To bring that up when it has already been rejected is just unnecessary reactionism on your part and no new contribution to the debate. I genuinely wonder why you flag something that has already been CLEARLY highlighted in the notes to the translation?

Does it occur to you that the brahmin-by-birth ritualistic Hindus are castigated by Guru Sahib, and the Vaishnos are praised as true gurumukhs? But all are swept into one condemned umbrella of brahminvaadi, Hindutva Hindus.

Can you pinpoint this 'praise' please? This isn't an opportunity to swamp us with a massive post by the way. Keep it tight. Brief extracts with references to their locations in maharaj or other respected Sikh texts are enough for us to follow.

Stop and reflect, if you are able, that the Vaishnavs are considered a "form" of monotheism...and reflect what the implications of a faulty strawman construction to denegrate their teachings by associating with beliefs and practices they do not have and even forbid. It destroys credibility. There is no soundness in such a position paper. Bhai Vir Singh has written a position paper, and it reflects his biases and mentality...which are decidedly ignorant of vaishnavism AND anti-Hindu. After setting up the false strawman of what Hindu's are supposed to believe, he asserts the Sikh position/correction. But since what he started with was false in the first place...it fails to deliver.

What you are essentially saying is that Bhai Sahib has taken on board the British conceptualisation of what it means to be Hindu with it's historically loaded nature. Okay (this possibility has already been flagged).

But what you also highlight in your post is the contradictions that frequently exist within that massive body of beliefs that is labeled 'Hinduism'. So it is valid to say that maybe the mistake here was focusing on one aspect of this big pot instead of another.

Can't handle very much can you. How unbecoming a Singh.

Or - you need to restrain yourself and learn to debate in a focused fashion and resist the urge to spew information in a barrage. Let's hope you do this. I'm being blunt here, I know.

Anyway, lets just hypothetically go along with the possibility that they (BVS) fell for the misinformation of devious Anglos (and their minions). Which, given history, almost all subjugated people did during that period. That doesn't take away from the force of the argument regarding the Sikh conceptualisation of the object of worship as outlined in the extract. That some branches of people that may fall under the label Hindu may share some of these (Sikh) beliefs is a valid point to make. But the fact that masses of the people referred to as Hindu have an object (and objects) of veneration that fall outside of the understood Sikh conceptualisation of a creator being isn't something that can be so quickly or easily glossed over.

Edited December 9, 2010 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Take the Vaishnavism which is the primary philosophy encountered in Gurbani...

Vaishnavism is not the primary philosophy in Gurbani, you only spout this rubbish because there are SOME similarities between Gurmat and vaishnavism, but there are just as many dis-similarites between Gurmat and vaishnavism that you should take care to read.

This is why you will never succeed here, your understanding of Gurbani is based on it being an extension of Vaishnavism, whereas our Gurus entertained no such ideas, indeed such ideas being redundant in Kalyug.

And you need to understand Gurbani on the antreev meanings rather than take literal meanings that use the words, "vishnu...ram...hari...gopal..."etc, and use them for your misguided agenda.

Edited December 9, 2010 by chatanga1

[jaikaara]

yaar veers apne pehen ji da kuj nai ho sakda..pehen ji lets just agree to disagree..for you it is vaishnavism for us it is not ! bassss ?

This is going just extreme, the singh sabha mindset will want to remove everything like this and pehen ji will want to take all this and summarise it as vaishnavism... pehen ji aap ji nu jis tarah bodh hove samjho te khush raho...naam japo Hari da hor apne blood pressure nu thik rakho..

Akaal aap ji di rakhya kare te sadbuddhi pardaan kare.

[Mithar]

yaar veers apne pehen ji da kuj nai ho sakda..pehen ji lets just agree to disagree..for you it is vaishnavism for us it is not ! bassss ?

This is going just extreme, the singh sabha mindset will want to remove everything like this and pehen ji will want to take all this and summarise it as vaishnavism... pehen ji aap ji nu jis tarah bodh hove samjho te khush raho...naam japo Hari da hor apne blood pressure nu thik rakho..

Akaal aap ji di rakhya kare te sadbuddhi pardaan kare.

Veer Jee, problem eh hai ki pen ji noon Punjabi nahin aundi, naa Gurbani gurmukhi vich parhni aundi hai, phir bhi apne aap noon Gurmat te ek "vidhvaan" samajh dhi hai.

[jaikaara]

lo ji kar lo gal ! fer ta hogiyaaa ..!!! i m sorry pehen ji what i meant in punjabi was understand what ever is ok with you and chant the naam of Hari and be happy !

MAY AKAAL protect you and bless you

[HarjasDevi]

Vaishnavism is not the primary philosophy in Gurbani, you only spout this rubbish because there are SOME similarities between Gurmat and vaishnavism, but there are just as many dis-similarites between Gurmat and vaishnavism that you should take care to read.

This is why you will never succeed here, your understanding of Gurbani is based on it being an extension of Vaishnavism, whereas our Gurus entertained no such ideas, indeed such ideas being redundant in Kalyug.

And you need to understand Gurbani on the antreev meanings rather than take literal meanings that use the words, "vishnu...ram...hari...gopal..."etc, and use them for your misguided agenda.

Eh?  Tell me this simple thing...who were all the bhatts whose bani appears in Gurbani?  They were Vaishnavas, yes?  ALL of them.  And the bhagats whose bani appears in Gurbani, were all of them also Vaishnavs with one exception.....sehajiya SUFI Baba Farid.  So that's 99.9% of all the bani which is not Guru's own bani that belongs to Vaishnav school.  And you will now say some preposterous unfounded thing about Vaishnavism is NOT the primary philosophy which occurs alongside Guru Sahibaan own thoughts.  Really?  And do tell which "other" philosophy has been elevated so highly as Vaishnavism within own Gurbani, hmm?

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥

baisano thae guramukh such dhharamaa ||

A Vaishnaav is one who, as Gurmukh, lives the righteous life of Dharma.

~SGGS Ji ang 258

---------------------

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਨਾਹੀ ਰਸਨਾ ਪਰਸ ॥

mithhiaa naahee rasanaa paras ||

One whose tongue does not touch falsehood;

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਰਸ ॥

man mehi preeth niranjan dharas ||

whose mind is filled with love for the Blessed Vision of the Pure Lord,

ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਪੇਖੈ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ॥

par thria roop n paekhai naethr ||

whose eyes do not gaze upon the beauty of others' wives,

ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਟਹਲ ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ ਹੇਤ ॥

saadhh kee ttehal santhasang haeth ||

who serves the Holy and loves the Saints' Congregation,

ਕਰਨ ਨ ਸੁਨੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ॥

karan n sunai kaahoo kee nindhaa ||

whose ears do not listen to slander against anyone,

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਜਾਨੈ ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੰਦਾ ॥

sabh thae jaanai aapas ko mandhaa ||

who deems himself to be the worst of all,

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਪਰਹਰੈ ॥

gur prasaadh bikhiaa pareharai ||

who, by Guru's Grace, renounces corruption,

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਟਰੈ ॥

man kee baasanaa man thae ttarai ||

who banishes the mind's evil desires from his mind,

ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਜਿਤ ਪੰਚ ਦੋਖ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ॥

eindhree jith panch dhokh thae rehath ||

who conquers his sexual instincts and is free of the five sinful passions

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਧੇ ਕੋ ਐਸਾ ਅਪਰਸ ॥੧॥

naanak kott madhhae ko aisaa aparas ||1||

- O Nanak, among millions, there is scarcely one such 'touch-nothing Saint'. ||1||

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥

baisano so jis oopar suprasann ||

The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥

bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn ||

He dwells apart from Maya.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥

karam karath hovai nihakaram ||

Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.

ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥

this baisano kaa niramal dhharam ||

Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;

ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥

kaahoo fal kee eishhaa nehee baashhai ||

he has no desire for the fruits of his labors.

ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥

kaeval bhagath keerathan sang raachai ||

He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the songs of the Lord's Glory.

ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥

man than anthar simaran gopaal ||

Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe.

ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥

sabh oopar hovath kirapaal ||

He is kind to all creatures.

ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥

aap dhrirrai avareh naam japaavai ||

He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥

naanak ouhu baisano param gath paavai ||2||

O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2||

~SGGS Ji ang 274

-----------------------------

ਸੋ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸੋ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਧਨਵੰਤੁ ॥

so surathaa so baisano so giaanee dhhanavanth ||

They are intuitively wise, and they are Vaishnaavs, worshippers of Vishnu; they are spiritually wise, wealthy and prosperous.

ਸੋ ਸੂਰਾ ਕੁਲਵੰਤੁ ਸੋਇ ਜਿਨਿ ਭਜਿਆ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥

so sooraa kulavanth soe jin bhajiaa bhagavanth ||

They are spiritual heros, of noble birth, who vibrate upon the Lord God.

~SGGS Ji ang 300

------------------------------

Now, where do the teachings of accepting all castes and outcastes as spiritual equals, serving community kitchen to feed the poor, singing sankirtan of the Lord's praise, NAAM jap, Mahamantra, and keeping company of the Sadhu sangat come from?

Answer: Vaishnavism.

[jaikaara]

EUREKA !!!

[Mithar]

Eh?  Tell me this simple thing...who were all the bhatts whose bani appears in Gurbani?  They were Vaishnavas, yes?  ALL of them.  And the bhagats whose bani appears in Gurbani, were all of them also Vaishnavs with one exception.....sehajiya SUFI Baba Farid.  So that's 99.9% of all the bani which is not Guru's own bani that belongs to Vaishnav school.  And you will now say some preposterous unfounded thing about Vaishnavism is NOT the primary philosophy which occurs alongside Guru Sahibaan own thoughts.  Really?  And do tell which "other" philosophy has been elevated so highly as Vaishnavism within own Gurbani, hmm?

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥

baisano thae guramukh such dhharamaa ||

A Vaishnaav is one who, as Gurmukh, lives the righteous life of Dharma.

~SGGS Ji ang 258

---------------------

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਨਾਹੀ ਰਸਨਾ ਪਰਸ ॥

mithhiaa naahee rasanaa paras ||

One whose tongue does not touch falsehood;

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਰਸ ॥

man mehi preeth niranjan dharas ||

whose mind is filled with love for the Blessed Vision of the Pure Lord,

ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਪੇਖੈ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ॥

par thria roop n paekhai naethr ||

whose eyes do not gaze upon the beauty of others' wives,

ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਟਹਲ ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ ਹੇਤ ॥

saadhh kee ttehal santhasang haeth ||

who serves the Holy and loves the Saints' Congregation,

ਕਰਨ ਨ ਸੁਨੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ॥

karan n sunai kaahoo kee nindhaa ||

whose ears do not listen to slander against anyone,

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਜਾਨੈ ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੰਦਾ ॥

sabh thae jaanai aapas ko mandhaa ||

who deems himself to be the worst of all,

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਪਰਹਰੈ ॥

gur prasaadh bikhiaa pareharai ||

who, by Guru's Grace, renounces corruption,

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਮਨ ਤੇ ਟਰੈ ॥

man kee baasanaa man thae ttarai ||

who banishes the mind's evil desires from his mind,

ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਜਿਤ ਪੰਚ ਦੋਖ ਤੇ ਰਹਤ ॥

eindhree jith panch dhokh thae rehath ||

who conquers his sexual instincts and is free of the five sinful passions

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਧੇ ਕੋ ਐਸਾ ਅਪਰਸ ॥੧॥

naanak kott madhhae ko aisaa aparas ||1||

- O Nanak, among millions, there is scarcely one such 'touch-nothing Saint'. ||1||

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥

baisano so jis oopar suprasann ||

The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥

bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn ||

He dwells apart from Maya.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥

karam karath hovai nihakaram ||

Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.

ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥

this baisano kaa niramal dhharam ||

Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;

ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥

kaahoo fal kee eishhaa nehee baashhai ||

he has no desire for the fruits of his labors.

ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥

kaeval bhagath keerathan sang raachai ||

He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the songs of the Lord's Glory.

ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥

man than anthar simaran gopaal ||

Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe.

ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥

sabh oopar hovath kirapaal ||

He is kind to all creatures.

ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥

aap dhrirrai avareh naam japaavai ||

He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥

naanak ouhu baisano param gath paavai ||2||

O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2||

~SGGS Ji ang 274

-----------------------------

ਸੋ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸੋ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਧਨਵੰਤੁ ॥

so surathaa so baisano so giaanee dhhanavanth ||

They are intuitively wise, and they are Vaishnaavs, worshippers of Vishnu; they are spiritually wise, wealthy and prosperous.

ਸੋ ਸੂਰਾ ਕੁਲਵੰਤੁ ਸੋਇ ਜਿਨਿ ਭਜਿਆ ਭਗਵੰਤੁ ॥

so sooraa kulavanth soe jin bhajiaa bhagavanth ||

They are spiritual heros, of noble birth, who vibrate upon the Lord God.

~SGGS Ji ang 300

------------------------------

Now, where do the teachings of accepting all castes and outcastes as spiritual equals, serving community kitchen to feed the poor, singing sankirtan of the Lord's praise, NAAM jap, Mahamantra, and keeping company of the Sadhu sangat come from?

Answer: Vaishnavism.

LOL, Bahadur used to say the same thing but with Shia'ism.

[HarjasDevi]

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha--davagni-nirvapanam

shreyah-kairava-chandrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamritaswadanam

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krishna-sankirtanam

Glory to the

Sri Krishna Sankirtana

, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This sankirtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste the nectar for which we are always anxious.

namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-shaktis

tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah

etadrishi tava kripa bhagavan mamapi

durdaivam idrisham ihajani nanuragaha

O my Lord

, Your holy name alone

can render all benediction to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of names like Krishna and Govinda. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies. There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these names. O my Lord, out of kindness

You enable us to easily approach You by Your holy names

, but I am so unfortunate that I have no attraction for them.

trinad api sunichena

taror api sahishnuna

amanina manadena

kirtaniyah sada harih

One should chant the holy name of the Lord

in a humble state of mind, thinking oneself lower than the straw in the street

; one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige and should

be ready to offer all respect to others

. In such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly.

na dhanam na janam na sundarim

kavitam va jagad-isha kamaye

mama janmani janmanishvare

bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki twayi

O almighty Lord, I have no desire to accumulate wealth, nor do I desire beautiful women, nor do I want any number of followers.

I only want Your causeless

devotional service

birth after birth.

~Shri Siksastakam, Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

Where do you think the discipline of chanting the Holy Names, of singing the Lord's praise comes from?  You think it is an "accident" that in Gursikhi the Maha mantra is patterned after the bija syllables of the Maha mantra of Mahaprabhu Chaitanya?  It is no accident at all. 

V= Vishnu, Vasudeyva

H = Hari Krishan

G = Govinda

R = Rama

 You may subordinate as mere "kritam" naams or antreev meanings and lower case all the names of the Divine.  But the fundamental import is that, contrary to propaganda, Vaishnavs were not worshipping the demi-gods of pakriti, but the One Supreme Absolute known by all these namas.  And it was Vaishnava philosophy which teaches originally that reciting the NAAM of the Lord is the boat of mukti for the Kali Yuga, as it was same avtaray of the Absolute taking the form of Sat Guru for the Ages and for the world to preserve Dharma whose names are being praised as the Divine Beloved of the female jivas.

[HarjasDevi]

satyam kaliyuga vipra

sri harer nama

mangalam

param svastyayanam nrnam

nasty-eva gatir anyatha

Oh brahmana,

chanting of the holy name is the auspicious process in Kali Yuga

. It is the highest auspiciousness for mankind. There is no other way.

~Padma Purana

---------------

"The sixteen names composed of thirty-two syllables are the only means to counteract the evil effects of Kali-yuga. In all the Vedas it is seen that to cross the ocean of nescience, there is no alternative to the chanting of the holy name.

Chanting of the holy names of Hari is the yuga-dharma (recommended religious process) for kali-yuga

. The importance of this chanting cannot be overly stressed. Everyone should chant these holy names as much as possible."

~Kalisantarana Upanisad

---------------

ਮਹਾ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਿਓ ਅਚਰਜ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਨਿਓ ਰੀ ॥੩॥

 

Mahā manṯar gur hirḏai basi▫o acẖraj nām suni▫o rī. ||3||

The Guru has implanted the Maha Mantra, the Great Mantra, within my heart, and I have heard the wondrous Naam, the Name of the Lord. ||3||

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਦਰਿ ਅਵਲੋਕਨ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਚਰਣਿ ਲਗਾਈ ॥

 

Kar kirpā parabẖ naḏar avlokan apunai cẖaraṇ lagā▫ī.

Showing His Mercy, God has looked upon me with favor, and He has attached me to His feet.

~Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 384

---------------

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਊਤਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੀਐ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥

Har nām

paḏārath kalijug ūṯam

har japī▫ai

saṯgur bẖā▫e jī▫o.

The wealth of the Lord's Name is the most exalted in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga; chant the Lord's Name according to the Way of the True Guru.

~SGGS Ji p. 444

[HarjasDevi]

Dalsingh101 writes:

"Why not read what has been posted previously more closely? The ideas contained in the section entitled Devi in Hindu matt

are not Bhai Vir Singh's

, but rather the

ideas embedded in white literature of the time.

" 

And Bhai Vir Singh was not supporting them as his thesis?  Of course he was, since the "white" re-interpretation of what Hinduism teaches happened to coincide with the Singh Sabha definitions of Hindu Mat.  And since the sources were a deliberate demonization of Hindu Mat based on British colonial re-interpretations, I find it shameful to resurrect such shameful scholarship, let alone promote the author as some kind of "great Sikh" for his service...which was to promote distortions of Hindu Mat in order to further drive wedge between Sikhi and it's Indic philosophical heritage.  Since Bhai Vir Singh has been their "spokesman" and not any kind of authentic authority on Devi in any kind of Hindu context, his text is biased and prejudicial to any authentic understanding.

"Seeing as Singh Sabha work was

pioneering in nature

(in terms of its interaction with the newly emerged world of

western academia and its agendas and paradigms

),"

Do listen to yourself, and understand the nature of Bhai Vir Singh's actual work which was deliberate distortion in furtherance of this agenda.

"it isn't any surprise that BVS used what was (at that time) considered to be the most up to date academic work on the subject at hand."

Only if you ignore the validity of the scholaship of the various Acharyas and Sampradayas which promoted authentic understanding.  But of course, those were not "white" and had no access to wealth and fame and mass distribution in the "world of academia."  So if Sikhi subornated itself to such shoddy "reinterpretations" and incipient racism we should laud the fool who did so?  But, "it's just that hateful Hinduism, so who cares," right?

We (or more accurately he) didn't have the benefit of the knowledge available today in terms of understanding racism and imperialism,

You mean he was a brainwashed tool of the imperialistic British and he prejudices and outrageous misrepresentations should somehow be excused?  Don't tell me...because his name is "Singh" and therefore no matter HOW outlandish his positions he should be "respected" as a "great" scholar and his work somehow justified in context of the great DAMAGE he did to misrepresentations of Hindu thought to the Sikh masses?

"there was no critical race theory then, no Edward Said etc. You need to take that into consideration." 

Yes, much like the theory all Jatts are attractive Aryans and all the Hindu's are dark-skinned niggers?  And where do you suppose THIS cannard comes from?  Wait, don't tell me, the British again.  See, the authentic Hindu scholars and Acharyas wrote sublimely beautiful and uplifting things, and not this jibberish that passes itself off as "Hindu philosophical thought."  It doesn't take an intellect to see the moral wrong in these ridiculous racist theories.  You didn't have to read a textbook to understand that it promoted the worst abuses of colonialism.

Plus I already pointed out that the information in that very brief section of the overall work stands annulled.

So why do you all keep defending him as some kind of scholarly "great" and treat all my valid criticisms as so much trash?

[chatanga1]

And you will now say some preposterous unfounded thing about Vaishnavism is NOT the primary philosophy which occurs alongside Guru Sahibaan own thoughts.  Really?  And do tell which "other" philosophy has been elevated so highly as Vaishnavism within own Gurbani, hmm?

well done for typing in "vashnavism" into sikhitothemax and then copying and posting the results here. it would be better if you wre actually able to understand them. Guru Ji has in no way said that vaishnavism is elevated, they as with the muslims talk of what it is like to be a true muslim, tell of what it is like to be a true vaishnav. But again for your agenda, you have taken the Gurus words and twisted them to suit yourself. You have just tried to do what the muslims do, to try and project gurmat as a vindication of islam being the truth. and failed as they did.

[HarjasDevi]

well done for typing in "vashnavism" into sikhitothemax and then copying and posting the results here. it would be better if you wre actually able to understand them. Guru Ji has in no way said that vaishnavism is elevated, they as with the muslims talk of what it is like to be a true muslim, tell of what it is like to be a true vaishnav. But again for your agenda, you have taken the Gurus words and twisted them to suit yourself. You have just tried to do what the muslims do, to try and project gurmat as a vindication of islam being the truth. and failed as they did.

So a Vaishnav is a true Gurmukh, and this contrasted with any other Hindu.  The NAAM of Vaheguru is derived from the Vaishnav NAAMS chanted to obtain mukti in the Kaliyug.  The sankirtan of the Lord's praise and the Shabda Brahm which is the pranava basis of every mantra has the power to wash the karams and samskaras from the mind according to Vaishnav theology.  All the Bhatts and nearly all the bhagats who defined the MAT which appears so much as accepted part of Gurmat were Vaishnavas.

Yet you are saying there was NO discernable Vaishnava influence on Gursikhi?  LOL.  w/e floats your boat.

[HarjasDevi]

"some preposterous unfounded thing about Vaishnavism"

So why did Guru Nanak Dev Ji have a Vishnu Shaligram is it's so preposterous that Vaishnavism was so unfounded?  The Sodhi family still has the relic and it is mentioned in Gurbani.  Why?  If it's preposterous would there be any linkages at all?  It's so obvious Guru Nanak Dev did not come from the Jains.  He did not come from the Shaivas.  So why...deny...the obvious?  Or is it emotional inability to simply say, yea, the early Hindu's in the Sant bhakti movement in Punjab which left lasting influence on Sikhi and perhaps the family sect Guru Sahibaan originated from were Vaishnavas.  How hard is it to say that true Saints among the Vaishnavas were respected by Guru Sahibaan, as evidenced by the inclusion of their bani?

Seriously, how does THIS small acknowledgment threaten your "Sikh" identity? /boggle

[HarjasDevi]

Oh, and why is the very language Braj Bhasha used in so many Sikh granths....and that is the language of the /drumroll... Vaishnava scholars and sants.  Imagine! How preposterous and unfounded!

"According to ancient Hindu texts such as the Shrimad Bhagavatam [Vaishnava], the kingdom of King Kams is described as spreading through the Braj (also known as Vrij or Vraj), where the incarnation of Krishna [Vaishnava] was born and spent his childhood days. This region lies in the Agra-Mathura area, and stretches as far as the environs of Delhi. In modern India, this area lies mostly in northwestern Uttar Pradesh, the eastern extremities of Rajasthan and the southern extremities of Haryana...Much of Hindi poetry, especially that of 'Bhakti' or devotional poetry [Vaishnava] is in this language. Some devotional poems for Krishna [Vaishnava] are also composed in Braj Bhasha." Brij Bhasha

[jaikaara]

pehen ji let me introduce you to the india i know as i am here, 80% of the population of india is 'vaishnu' based. one or the other diety is linked to the avatar of vishnu.

there are followers who follow it but do not fall into the organised vaishnu category.

there are many who worship different religious artefacts not even knowning what category he or she is falling in.

i have been to temples and still visit them, i do not categorize myself as anyting but sikh, they ask me if i worship shiva or vishnu or shakti, i would say All in the form of One since Akaal Purakh is the master of all and He is Nirgun Nirankaar and i do not worship any diety exclusively.

what Guru Maharaj's parents were or even the past life doesnt hold much importance, the fact is he formed a panth which only spoke of a formless Power the Akaal Purakh.

Braj Bhasha was the royal language, not only punjab but right from central to the northern and western India used Braj, it is a Raaj Bhasha .

come to india and spend the rest of your life here rahter than wasting your time over websites. life will be much easier for you and us too !

[HarjasDevi]

"Braj Bhasha was the royal language, not only punjab but right from central to the northern and western India used Braj, it is a Raaj Bhasha."

It is the language of the bhakti sants, as even Sikhs acknowledge, not the royal courts, sorry Jio.  Maybe you should get out of the pind more.  Braj is not based on Raj but on Vraja where Krishna was born.  Seriously why this insane argumentativeness simply to refute everything I point out?  As you said, it doesn't matter much.  today India is 80% Vaishnav, and of those sampraday what percentage can be traced to the Ramaujacharya or the Chaitanya reform and the subsequent bhakti movement which influenced Punjab during time of Guru Sahibaan?  See, the point is you can't negate the influence and have any credibility.  nevertheless it proves nothing about how modern Sikhism has evolved doctrinally either.

But what is to be gained by denials?  It's just obvious that Guru Sahib had respect for authentic vaishnav sants, and their Dvaitic, somewhat monotheistic worldview is actually praised, whereas, you cannot say that is a worldview held by 80% of Indian Hindus now can you?

[jaikaara]

i belong to a lineage of rajputs who have ruled a huge area which are now divided into states of different languages, their official language was braj, pehenji dont teach an indian how to be indian !

[chatanga1]

Yet you are saying there was NO discernable Vaishnava influence on Gursikhi?  LOL.  w/e floats your boat.

no, im saying that there is no vaishnav influence that is more discerning than any other influence on Gurmat.

[HarjasDevi]

Oh? And you are an authority on Braj? Do you even speak it?? Although the language of Braj was used in Royal Courts it gained it's prominence and influence by being the language of the scholarly Bhaktas and originated anciently from Mathura and Vraja, not Rajasthan. It was a scholarly language like Sanksrit and was influential language at certain period of history. But that influence was due to the literature and poetry of Vaishnav pundits. So let's not be unreasonable and make bold claims seeking to deny any connection to Vaishnavism or claim that braj comes from Raj when it is acknowledged by credible sources as coming from Vraja region. Just being Indian doesn't make you an expert on Braj. Do you have any authoritative sources to back your claim other than "you say?"

Because I'm not making a claim, I'm citing the sources. it doesn't matter who came first, the chicken or the egg, was it Rajputs language first or Vaishnava Bhaktas first. You can't even erase that the prominence and influence of Braj Bhasha as a language at all had to do with it being the dialect of the famous Vaishnava poets. You're entire argument and line of reasoning is an attempt to negate that one, clear, obvious fact which is inescapable. And just being some small town pindu doesn't give you any authority, credibility or expertise in the subject of Braj language. I'm descended from Banjaras does it mean I know everything about them and you don't know anything? That's just stupid talk.

[HarjasDevi]

im saying that there is no vaishnav influence that is more discerning than any other influence on Gurmat.

Vahiguru:

V = Vishnu and Vasudeyv

H = Hare Krishan

G = Gobind

R = Rama

The influences can't be any greater than that. Sorry, but we have to agree to disagree.

[Mithar]

Oh? And you are an authority on Braj? Do you even speak it??

ਤੁਹਾਡਾ ਭੱਲਾ ਹੋਵੇ! ਇਹ ਉਹ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਬੋਲ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਜਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਭੀ ਹਿੰਦੁਸਤਾਨੀ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਨੂੰ ਸਮਝਣ ਦੀ ਸਮਰਥਾ ਹੀ ਨਹੀ ਰਖਦੀ| ਫਿਰ ਭੀ ਇਹ ਹਰਜਸ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਬ੍ਰਿਜ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਉਤੇ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਸਮਝਦੀ ਹੈ|

Edited December 11, 2010 by Mithar

[HarjasDevi]

Well if you have a citation which contradicts that Braj is the language of Braja and has no known association to Vaishnava poets and literature, then please do share it in English for the non-Gurmukhi readers, unless of course you think I am presenting my own expert opinion by citing an external source for my evidence.

And if you also agree that Braj Bhasha has no known relationship to Vaishnavism then please do share a source more credible than someone's pindu bravado of being born in India and related to Rajputs and making claim that Braj comes from Raj instead.  I already said I could be persuaded with mature presentation of evidence instead of silly blustering one-upmanship.  It's just irrational argumentativeness to try and negate every single thing I say because you feel you have to oppose me for not being Sikh or challenging some of the mainstream interpretations of Hindu philosophy originating from propaganda intending to erase it's credible relationship to Historical Sikhism.

[Mithar]

Well if you have a citation which contradicts that Braj is the language of Braja and has no known association to Vaishnava poets and literature, then please do share it in English for the non-Gurmukhi readers, unless of course you think I am presenting my own expert opinion by citing an external source for my evidence.

And if you also agree that Braj Bhasha has no known relationship to Vaishnavism then please do share a source more credible than someone's pindu bravado of being born in India and related to Rajputs and making claim that Braj comes from Raj instead. I already said I could be persuaded with mature presentation of evidence instead of silly blustering one-upmanship. It's just irrational argumentativeness to try and negate every single thing I say because you feel you have to oppose me for not being Sikh or challenging some of the mainstream interpretations of Hindu philosophy originating from propaganda intending to erase it's credible relationship to Historical Sikhism.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਹਿੰਦੀ ਸਿਖ, ਫਿਰ ਗੱਲ ਕਰ| ਜਦੋਂ ਤਿਨੂੰ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਜਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਭਾਰਤੀ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਨਹੀ ਬੋਲਣੀ ਤੇ ਪੜ੍ਹਣੀ ਆਉਂਦੀ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਬਾਰੇ ਬਹਿਸ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਫਾਇਦਾ? ਹੋਰ ਕੋਈ ਕੰਮ ਧੰਦਾ ਨਹੀ, ਬੱਸ ਬਿਨਾ ਗੱਲ ਤੋਂ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਦਾ ਟਾਈਮ ਖਰਾਬ ਕਰੋ|

Edited December 11, 2010 by Mithar