Marrying Your Cousin Not A Good Idea......

[kdsingh80]

In the end a keystone of Sikhi is the notion of equality. Once they figured out that in reality being a Sikh doesn't result in being treated in a respectful and dignified manner, it is no big surprise (to me anyway) that they decide to separate.

Thing with attempts at self empowerment is that they have no guarantee of success. Blacks did not have a guarantee of an improved situation for themselves when they started their civil rights movement in the US but they went ahead with it anyway. It will be the same with any other group fighting for change, there is no guarantee that Dalits will improve their situation with what they are doing, but doing something is still infinitely better than doing nothing and accepting the status quo like placid cowards.

So you are comparing Sikhism with Black civil rights movement? It looks to me you consider Sikhism as more of a social reform movement rather than a religion.If what you are stating is true then why The guru's when they were in Human body did not create casteless society?At present there is no religion in world where there are no caste,class,or regional distinctions ,but I have yet to see many people saying that they are leaving Religion because some idiots of their religion are not giving them equal treatment.

Just look at Pakistan Bangladesh war ,Bangladeshi fought for freedom and equal rights ,but in their war not even a single time they blamed islam for their treatment by paki's ,they fought won and created their own country but they never left islam

As far creation of new religion is concerned it is very well tried and tested method in India but it did not work

Also what is next on the cards? Women also leaving Sikhism as Sikhism promised them equality but still in many sikh families they are not treated with respect and then urban sikhs leaving sikhism because they are being mocked as Bhapa's.

Like all other Religions Sikhs are human too and it is always going to be small minority which will practice Sikhism with core of its heart the others will kepp on unsikh things like believing in caste, Drinking ,womanising etc.

Suggesting people accept discrimination as a member of the panth (like kds did) is a load of bull, I'm sorry but it is true.

There is no way I am suggesting that they should accept caste discrimination ,but by leaving Sikhism they are just giving more strength to Jatts and other upper castes who will say that we know we are the only true sikhs ,they were fake so they left it.

The only Thing I am suggesting is that they should fight all that discrimination by remaining within Panth

My stand on this issue is that basis of all Religion is faith whether that faith is of Guru nanak's ,RAM,Mohammed or Jesus .If you decide leave your religion because of some worldly factor then your faith was never strong and I know very well that Sikhs are going to do very poorly in this faith test,whether upper or lower caste,muslims have strongest faith in their religion that is why there power ios increasing day by day

Edited June 27, 2011 by kdsingh80

[kdsingh80]

I'm at a friends house so I haven't read all the posts in this topic yet, so you might already have answered my questions, but are you saying that people from a low caste background should accept being raped by high caste boys, get beaten up by the high castes, not allowed to be in the same room with a high caste, brahmin kids bullying your kids because they are dalits?

There is no way I am suggesting that they should accept being raped or beaten up,what i am saying is that creation of new religion is not going to help them much

I already tried talking to a lot of people back home in my pind and they all said "we are x caste and we will never marry our kids to people from other castes, if they do we won't talk to them anymore" etc. I'm not gonna waste my time and life to explain what Sikhi says, life is too long for that.

marriage is still a issue in which all Indians become backwards and prefer their own caste even the broad minded urbans who may day and night say anti caste things.even muslims in India prefer to marry in their own caste

We as a community failed to practice what Sikhi says about caste, if your sister got raped by high caste boys, if your family got beaten up just because they were from a low caste, if an employer denied you a job because of your background you wouldn't accept it and say "oh yeah well that's life, I just gotta accept it". You would create your own community just like the chamars, if I were in their shoes I know I would.

And what if these things happen just because I am poor?

and the people who do this to me are from same caste but rich landlords.Do you think that poor girls from upper caste families are not raped? or poor families are not beaten up.

Also by creating a community what do mean? creating a group or creating a separate religion?

Do you know that in Bihar there is issue of Maha dalits was recently raised because some reports of Governments suggested that among Dalits few communitties are taking all the benefits which include Chamar.Once I saw a news in which it was shown that a lower Dalit boy was hanged upside down by upper Dalits

because he refused to pick the body of dead dog

[dalsingh101]

So you are comparing Sikhism with Black civil rights movement? It looks to me you consider Sikhism as more of a social reform movement rather than a religion.

Are you purposefully acting ignorant or is it unintentional?

Sikhi is a religion, and social reform WAS/IS one of the objectives that the Guru's pressed for. Again, you do that dumb thing of trying to separate the spiritual and the social when you know damn well that Sikhi is not the type of 'spirituality' which ignores social issues and that our Guru's themselves took major steps at trying to reshape society.

Besides, what you are referring to above was my response to your thoughtless point about people initiating movements for change which do not have a guarantee of success.

If what you are stating is true then why The guru's when they were in Human body did not create casteless society?At present there is no religion in world where there are no caste,class,or regional distinctions ,but I have yet to see many people saying that they are leaving Religion because some idiots of their religion are not giving them equal treatment.

So your true Indian solution is....do nothing to combat the problem other than segregate yourself within the community even more and try and fight from there. That is so dumb.

Just look at Pakistan Bangladesh war ,Bangladeshi fought for freedom and equal rights ,but in their war not even a single time they blamed islam for their treatment by paki's ,they fought won and created their own country but they never left islam

No one is blaming Sikhi for it, rather it is the fault of so called Sikhs who fail to live up to a central plank of the faith.

As far creation of new religion is concerned it is very well tried and tested method in India but it did not work

DOn't get it wrong, I'm not exactly over the moon at what has happened but I can't sit around acting like I'm surprised at it.

Also what is next on the cards? Women also leaving Sikhism as Sikhism promised them equality but still in many sikh families they are not treated with respect

What, and you don't see this happening all ready. You need to get out a bit more.

and then urban sikhs leaving sikhism because they are being mocked as Bhapa's.

There are still not stigmatised and harassed as much as so called lower castes are they, your comparison doesn't work because the situation isn't well...comparable.

There is no way I am suggesting that they should accept caste discrimination ,but by leaving Sikhism they are just giving more strength to Jatts and other upper castes who will say that we know we are the only true sikhs ,they were fake so they left it.

The only Thing I am suggesting is that they should fight all that discrimination by remaining within Panth

They shouldn't need to, this should have been the place to go to get away from that crap. Instead of the house of the Guru being gareeb niwaaz, it's becoming a centre of sucking their blood by ignorant people who then turn around and claim they are the 'truest' Sikhs. Then you have people like you, who take the matter lightly, and you are meant to be educated!

My stand on this issue is that basis of all Religion is faith whether that faith is of Guru nanak's ,RAM,Mohammed or Jesus .If you decide leave your religion because of some worldly factor then your faith was never strong and I know very well that Sikhs are going to do very poorly in this faith test,whether upper or lower caste,muslims have strongest faith in their religion that is why there power ios increasing day by day

So again, you totally let arseholes in our community pretty much completely off the hook. Well done. No wonder we make no progress when even educated brothers can't recognise a serious internal problem when he sees one.

I haven't got anything else to say to you about the matter. You've just perfectly highlighted the kind of inert mentality that almost guarantees that nonsense between Sikhs over caste will carry on without any serious challenge.

Edited June 27, 2011 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

Sikhi is a religion, and social reform WAS/IS one of the objectives that the Guru's pressed for. Again, you do that dumb thing of trying to separate the spiritual and the social when you know damn well that Sikhi is not the type of 'spirituality' which ignores social issues and that our Guru's themselves took major steps at trying to reshape society.

Yes social reforms was part of Sikhism but still some historical parts tell us that some sikhs keep on believing in caste

So your true Indian solution is....do nothing to combat the problem other than segregate yourself within the community even more and try and fight from there. That is so dumb.

I have already said they can do a lot as part of Sikhism,creating new religion is no solution to me

No one is blaming Sikhi for it, rather it is the fault of so called Sikhs who fail to live up to a central plank of the faith.

If they are leaving sikhism then they are blaming sikhism indirectly

What, and you don't see this happening all ready. You need to get out a bit more.

So you believe that there are many women leaving Sikhism just in search of equality? I am sorry but apart from handful of them I don't see many leave sikhism in search of equality,infact majority of them leave when they think they find their true love.

They shouldn't need to, this should have been the place to go to get away from that crap. Instead of the house of the Guru being gareeb niwaaz, it's becoming a centre of sucking their blood by ignorant people who then turn around and claim they are the 'truest' Sikhs. Then you have people like you, who take the matter lightly, and you are meant to be educated!

At present believing Gurdwara's are place for being Gareeb Nawaz is like living in wonderland.My Grandmother died in 4 years back in south delhi's colony but my Chacha organised Akhand paath in nearby colony,reason the colony Gurdwara apart from akhand paath indirectly ask how much you contribute to building fund?

Also whenever there is gurpurab in Delhi and some poor sikhs come to sell sikhi related items the bhai ji's of Gurdwara just pounce on them to shoo them away ,My bhua was telling how she saw telling them don't you dare to think that because you are sikhs we will allow you to sell items here

[SikhKhoj]

G.Kaur, where do I have to come to shoot you ?

KdSingh brother, are these poor Sikhs you talk about called Sikligar Sikhs ?

[HSD1]

What are people arguing about? Another caste discussion based on a lot of arguing and no real world change? Some people have too much time on their hands.

[Xylitol]

Well what about all the hordes of 'respectable' Sikhs who stay around and emanate the caste based oppression? You could equally question whether they are truly Sikh or not? If their hypocrisy casts doubts on this, then maybe you could explain the situation as fake caste loving Sikhs chasing off poor people who want to become Sikh with their ignorant backwards bullshit?

That's another way of understanding it without excusing oppression.

whether one stays or leaves, if they believe in it from the heart and try to live it, they are sikhs. if they stay, and engage in caste oppression, clearly they don't follow it from the heart and are not "model sikhs" as you claim i, or others, put it.

next you're going to say we're calling bull on the need for equality... your method of "vichaar" is putting words in peoples' mouths that they never said, and then defeating those made up arguements...

Edited June 27, 2011 by Xylitol

[kdsingh80]

KdSingh brother, are these poor Sikhs you talk about called Sikligar Sikhs ?

I don't know whether they are sikligar or not but the fact is they face discrimination because they are poor

[SikhKhoj]

Okay. That is very sad.

[dalsingh101]

whether one stays or leaves, if they believe in it from the heart and try to live it, they are sikhs. if they stay, and engage in caste oppression, clearly they don't follow it from the heart and are not "model sikhs" as you claim i, or others, put it.

My gripe is people focusing on the effect and not the cause. It's not complicated in anyway. Oppress, alienate and demean people and they are likely to leave.

Simple.

next you're going to say we're calling bull on the need for equality... your method of "vichaar" is putting words in peoples' mouths that they never said, and then defeating those made up arguements...

You the one who thinks equality isn't a pillar of Sikhi and that I have imagined it to be.

[ipledgeblue]

Take your danga, stick it up your arse.

Seriously, I'm the last person who'd be even remotely interested in any pro farming bullshit. There's been too much of that for too long. Take it to Jattworld.

The last person? The way you are getting all wound up makes you seem you are very interested!

Talking about Giaan, aren't we as Sikhs supposed to follow and practice Sikhism and the words of our Gurus who constantly said no man should be proud of his caste? There are several Shabads about caste, and I don't think I need to post them.

Please post the bani quotes that constantly say "No man should be proud of his caste"

What are people arguing about? Another caste discussion based on a lot of arguing and no real world change? Some people have too much time on their hands.

Yes why are people arguing against caste in a thread about cousin marriages? Its the same people over and over attacking again and again! They should start a caste thread instead of hijacking other threads like they always do!!!

Edited June 28, 2011 by londondajatt

[G.Kaur]

Please post the bani quotes that constantly say "No man should be proud of his caste"

You are not serious, are you?

I think you should go to the next Amrit Sanchar in the UK and talk to Panj Piare. There will be one in Southall in October organised by AKJ and one at Sant Baba Thakur Singh Jee's barsi organised by students from Damdami Taksal. The one at the barsi will probably be held on 24th December somewhere in the West Midlands. I will let you know the exact date and place as I'm also going. There are probably other Amrit Sanchars too but those are the ones I know about.

Panj Piare have more knowledge than me and they can answer all your questions about caste. They are Guru Roop.

[kdsingh80]

Please post the bani quotes that constantly say "No man should be proud of his caste"

Is the following shabad is not clearly saying that you should be not proud of your caste?

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰੀਅਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥

जाति का गरबु न करीअहु कोई ॥

Jāṯ kā garab na karī▫ahu ko▫ī.

No one should be proud of his social class and status.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥

ब्रहमु बिंदे सो ब्राहमणु होई ॥१॥

Barahm binḏe so barāhmaṇ ho▫ī. ||1||

He alone is a Brahmin, who knows God. ||1||

ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਵਾਰਾ ॥

जाति का गरबु न करि मूरख गवारा ॥

Jāṯ kā garab na kar mūrakẖ gavārā.

Do not be proud of your social class and status, you ignorant fool

ਇਸੁ ਗਰਬ ਤੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

इसु गरब ते चलहि बहुतु विकारा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Is garab ṯe cẖalėh bahuṯ vikārā. ||1|| rahā▫o.

So much sin and corruption comes from this pride. ||1||Pause||

ਚਾਰੇ ਵਰਨ ਆਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥

चारे वरन आखै सभु कोई ॥

Cẖāre varan ākẖai sabẖ ko▫ī.

Everyone says that there are four castes, four social classes.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥

ब्रहमु बिंद ते सभ ओपति होई ॥२॥

Barahm binḏ ṯe sabẖ opaṯ ho▫ī. ||2||

They all emanate from the drop of God's Seed. ||2||

ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥

माटी एक सगल संसारा ॥

Mātī ek sagal sansārā.

The entire universe is made of the same clay.

ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਘੜੈ ਕੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰਾ ॥੩॥

बहु बिधि भांडे घड़ै कुम्हारा ॥३॥

Baho biḏẖ bẖāʼnde gẖaṛai kumĥārā. ||3||

The Potter has shaped it into all sorts of vessels. ||3||

ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਾ ਆਕਾਰਾ ॥

पंच ततु मिलि देही का आकारा ॥

Pancẖ ṯaṯ mil ḏehī kā ākārā.

The five elements join together, to make up the form of the human body.

ਘਟਿ ਵਧਿ ਕੋ ਕਰੈ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥੪॥

घटि वधि को करै बीचारा ॥४॥

Gẖat vaḏẖ ko karai bīcẖārā. ||4||

Who can say which is less, and which is more? ||4||

ਕਹਤੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਮ ਬੰਧੁ ਹੋਈ ॥

कहतु नानक इहु जीउ करम बंधु होई ॥

Kahaṯ Nānak ih jī▫o karam banḏẖ ho▫ī.

Says Nanak, this soul is bound by its actions.

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੫॥੧॥

बिनु सतिगुर भेटे मुकति न होई ॥५॥१॥

Bin saṯgur bẖete mukaṯ na ho▫ī. ||5||1||

Without meeting the True Guru, it is not liberated. ||5||1||

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1127&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0

[dalsingh101]

What are people arguing about? Another caste discussion based on a lot of arguing and no real world change? Some people have too much time on their hands.

One moment you say "we need to tell our people 'wtf!' about how they go on about stuff like this", then when someone does, you come out with the above crap.

Well done.

[Mithar]

One moment you say "we need to tell our people 'wtf!' about how they go on about stuff like this", then when someone does, you come out with the above crap.

Well done.

True. The caste problem will only go if we discuss it. From such discussions, awareness spreads and possible solutions also arise.

[G.Kaur]

Is the following shabad is not clearly saying that you should be not proud of your caste?

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰੀਅਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥

जाति का गरबु न करीअहु कोई ॥

Jāṯ kā garab na karī▫ahu ko▫ī.

No one should be proud of his social class and status.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥

ब्रहमु बिंदे सो ब्राहमणु होई ॥१॥

Barahm binḏe so barāhmaṇ ho▫ī. ||1||

He alone is a Brahmin, who knows God. ||1||

ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਵਾਰਾ ॥

जाति का गरबु न करि मूरख गवारा ॥

Jāṯ kā garab na kar mūrakẖ gavārā.

Do not be proud of your social class and status, you ignorant fool

ਇਸੁ ਗਰਬ ਤੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

इसु गरब ते चलहि बहुतु विकारा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Is garab ṯe cẖalėh bahuṯ vikārā. ||1|| rahā▫o.

So much sin and corruption comes from this pride. ||1||Pause||

ਚਾਰੇ ਵਰਨ ਆਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥

चारे वरन आखै सभु कोई ॥

Cẖāre varan ākẖai sabẖ ko▫ī.

Everyone says that there are four castes, four social classes.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥

ब्रहमु बिंद ते सभ ओपति होई ॥२॥

Barahm binḏ ṯe sabẖ opaṯ ho▫ī. ||2||

They all emanate from the drop of God's Seed. ||2||

ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥

माटी एक सगल संसारा ॥

Mātī ek sagal sansārā.

The entire universe is made of the same clay.

ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਘੜੈ ਕੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰਾ ॥੩॥

बहु बिधि भांडे घड़ै कुम्हारा ॥३॥

Baho biḏẖ bẖāʼnde gẖaṛai kumĥārā. ||3||

The Potter has shaped it into all sorts of vessels. ||3||

ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਾ ਆਕਾਰਾ ॥

पंच ततु मिलि देही का आकारा ॥

Pancẖ ṯaṯ mil ḏehī kā ākārā.

The five elements join together, to make up the form of the human body.

ਘਟਿ ਵਧਿ ਕੋ ਕਰੈ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥੪॥

घटि वधि को करै बीचारा ॥४॥

Gẖat vaḏẖ ko karai bīcẖārā. ||4||

Who can say which is less, and which is more? ||4||

ਕਹਤੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਮ ਬੰਧੁ ਹੋਈ ॥

कहतु नानक इहु जीउ करम बंधु होई ॥

Kahaṯ Nānak ih jī▫o karam banḏẖ ho▫ī.

Says Nanak, this soul is bound by its actions.

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੫॥੧॥

बिनु सतिगुर भेटे मुकति न होई ॥५॥१॥

Bin saṯgur bẖete mukaṯ na ho▫ī. ||5||1||

Without meeting the True Guru, it is not liberated. ||5||1||

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1127&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0

It is. Dal also posted this Shabad in another topic, so I'm just wondering why londondajatt is asking again and therefore I told him to ask Panj Pyare if he doesn't understand what we are saying.

[SikhKhoj]

No solution in these 7 pages, only personal attacks till now.

[dalsingh101]

No solution in these 7 pages, only personal attacks till now.

You're wrong. Vehement and consistent social disapproval can have a profound impact on behavior in a society. First it drives the undesired behaviour underground, then this slowly weakens over time.

The people who defend, tacitly justify or are easy going about jaat paat in the panth thus help it persist. When enough people in the community vocally (and through their actions) refuse to accept that type of nonsense and condemn it, people will get the message.

Once enough people adopt the 'anti-casteism' stance, those that persist will eventually end up marginalised and either become weirdos or change their errant ways.

Do your bit or don't stop others doing theirs. This needs to be a very personal matter for every apna because it is blatantly causing all manner of fissures and ugly scenes in our already small and vulnerable community.

The inevitable battleline is going to be those who are pro-caste against those who aren't. It's like a hump we have to get over.

Everyone has to ask him/her self where they truly stand on this matter. I think you can all take a guess as to what my position is.

Edited June 29, 2011 by dalsingh101

[SikhKhoj]

Go ahead, I hope you can bring a positive change in our Panth.

[dalsingh101]

Go ahead, I hope you can bring a positive change in our Panth.

None of us can do it alone, we all need to work in concert to achieve this positive change.

[ipledgeblue]

You are not serious, are you?

I think you should go to the next Amrit Sanchar in the UK and talk to Panj Piare. There will be one in Southall in October organised by AKJ and one at Sant Baba Thakur Singh Jee's barsi organised by students from Damdami Taksal. The one at the barsi will probably be held on 24th December somewhere in the West Midlands. I will let you know the exact date and place as I'm also going. There are probably other Amrit Sanchars too but those are the ones I know about.

Panj Piare have more knowledge than me and they can answer all your questions about caste. They are Guru Roop.

lol did you just ask me to go ask panj piyaray from AKJ, ok I can take Damdami Taksal more seriously? If you had said Dal Khalsa panth I can take you more seriously.

Is the following shabad is not clearly saying that you should be not proud of your caste?

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰੀਅਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥

जाति का गरबु न करीअहु कोई ॥

Jāṯ kā garab na karī▫ahu ko▫ī.

No one should be proud of his social class and status.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥

ब्रहमु बिंदे सो ब्राहमणु होई ॥१॥

Barahm binḏe so barāhmaṇ ho▫ī. ||1||

He alone is a Brahmin, who knows God. ||1||

ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਵਾਰਾ ॥

जाति का गरबु न करि मूरख गवारा ॥

Jāṯ kā garab na kar mūrakẖ gavārā.

Do not be proud of your social class and status, you ignorant fool

ਇਸੁ ਗਰਬ ਤੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

इसु गरब ते चलहि बहुतु विकारा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Is garab ṯe cẖalėh bahuṯ vikārā. ||1|| rahā▫o.

So much sin and corruption comes from this pride. ||1||Pause||

ਚਾਰੇ ਵਰਨ ਆਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥

चारे वरन आखै सभु कोई ॥

Cẖāre varan ākẖai sabẖ ko▫ī.

Everyone says that there are four castes, four social classes.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥

ब्रहमु बिंद ते सभ ओपति होई ॥२॥

Barahm binḏ ṯe sabẖ opaṯ ho▫ī. ||2||

They all emanate from the drop of God's Seed. ||2||

ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥

माटी एक सगल संसारा ॥

Mātī ek sagal sansārā.

The entire universe is made of the same clay.

ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਘੜੈ ਕੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰਾ ॥੩॥

बहु बिधि भांडे घड़ै कुम्हारा ॥३॥

Baho biḏẖ bẖāʼnde gẖaṛai kumĥārā. ||3||

The Potter has shaped it into all sorts of vessels. ||3||

ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਾ ਆਕਾਰਾ ॥

पंच ततु मिलि देही का आकारा ॥

Pancẖ ṯaṯ mil ḏehī kā ākārā.

The five elements join together, to make up the form of the human body.

ਘਟਿ ਵਧਿ ਕੋ ਕਰੈ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥੪॥

घटि वधि को करै बीचारा ॥४॥

Gẖat vaḏẖ ko karai bīcẖārā. ||4||

Who can say which is less, and which is more? ||4||

ਕਹਤੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹੁ ਜੀਉ ਕਰਮ ਬੰਧੁ ਹੋਈ ॥

कहतु नानक इहु जीउ करम बंधु होई ॥

Kahaṯ Nānak ih jī▫o karam banḏẖ ho▫ī.

Says Nanak, this soul is bound by its actions.

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭੇਟੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੫॥੧॥

बिनु सतिगुर भेटे मुकति न होई ॥५॥१॥

Bin saṯgur bẖete mukaṯ na ho▫ī. ||5||1||

Without meeting the True Guru, it is not liberated. ||5||1||

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1127&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0

Yes, but my question was, where does Guru ji say it constantly, emphasis on constantly!

I already know about that bani passage

Also, do the posters here know the difference between acknowledgement and pride?

No solution in these 7 pages, only personal attacks till now.

Personal attacks only show insecurity. Why can people not be proud of being themselves instead of trying to knock others down? Is this what sikhi teaches?

Edited June 29, 2011 by londondajatt

[dalsingh101]

See, this is a perfect example of how a casteist comes along and instead of trying to discuss anything lofty regarding the faith, or anything that might help us better ourselves - wants to find justification for their casteism. Even when you post bani that unequivocally explains why they shouldn't they are still trying to find some 'technical clause'. lol You see this frequently, next he'll be pulling the 'it's an ethnicity not caste' card in desperation.

Giving these people ANY leeway is a mistake because they only have one purpose which is to find some way of justifying what they do.

Edited June 29, 2011 by dalsingh101

[G.Kaur]

Go ahead, I hope you can bring a positive change in our Panth.

It won't take a day or two or a month, it will probably take decades. But there's no guarantee that we can bring a positive change in the Panth, but we can try. Rome wasn't built in a day either.

At the end of the day, people who didn't give up trying to abolish the caste system amongst Sikhs, those who did parchaar and spend time to educate people can at least say that they tried to change it.

[G.Kaur]

lol did you just ask me to go ask panj piyaray from AKJ, ok I can take Damdami Taksal more seriously? If you had said Dal Khalsa panth I can take you more seriously.

Yes, but my question was, where does Guru ji say it constantly, emphasis on constantly!

I already know about that bani passage

Also, do the posters here know the difference between acknowledgement and pride?

Personal attacks only show insecurity. Why can people not be proud of being themselves instead of trying to knock others down? Is this what sikhi teaches?

Listen, I don't care if you worship a cow, if you worship some self-pronounced Guru, if you're an atheist or whatever you are or whatever you do in your life. I told you to go to an amrit sanchar because I thought you could talk to the panj piare and they can put some sense into your head. Because it's obvious that the shabads we have posted here isn't enough for you even though it has a really clear message. If you was a retard and therefore don't understand the messages of our Guru's I'd say okay, but since you are not what is your excuse then?

[SikhKhoj]

Learn to respect others views and be a bit more broad minded. Your point of view is not necessarily the truth.

I don't think behaviour such as yours will bring any change at all. This is Sikhi not Wahhabi Islam. Don't bother replying, my last post in this thread.