Can A Sikh Do Namaz?

[dalsingh101]

Well, personally I think that Sikhs aren't the most friendly/welcoming bunch myself. Unless it's outsiders considered high status, then you get unabated sycophancy. lol

Plus a lot of apnay are very naram types who would get easily hurt by the brusque nature of a lot of other apnay.

Yes, I do feel that Sikhs need to work on this aspect of being warm and welcoming. I've heard this complaint many a time from other apnay over the years. Plus I know sullay, can be REALLY welcoming and warm and stuff when they want. It really helps them with conversions.

Edited December 6, 2010 by dalsingh101

[jaikaara]

the sulley will welcom you till you r new , then you too are part of their feuds, sunni shia , tablighi , ahmadiya, ahle hadees etc.

so you leave yor 'zaat' because you dint want it, only to fall into the bracket of another 'zaat' of another religion.

[jaikaara]

go through these veera :-

http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5

http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/

http://www.faithfreedom.org/about-us/

[Mithar]

You know what they call a married woman who flirts with other men? well that is the situation of a Sikh who while having a Guru also flirts with other faiths and thinks it is okay. How long does it take to do Namaz? 10-15 minutes? wouldn't it be better if you do Paath or Naam Simran for the same amount of time with full concentration? What is so impressive about Islam or Mohammad that you cannot be impressed with Gurmat and the Gurus? Reading about Prophet Mohammad and other Abrahamic prophets you will realize that even a million Mohammads and such prophets cannot equal the charan dhoor of Baba Nanak.

I once heard Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowalwalay saying in a Katha: we have done great Karma to be born in a Sikh household. We have our own traditions, rehet, Bani (scriptures) and THE greatest history in the planet. Gurmat is a complete dharm. We need to immerse ourselves in Gurbani Paath and Naam Simran.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

In reality there are no separate religions such as Islam Sikh etc.

Each person forms his own personal religion.

Or to be more correct there are a few who have the strength to carve their own religion.

Use whatever you find useful there is a lot of information out there.

Search after what feels true to yourself and forget the intolerance of others, it is just insecurity.

There is a saying that the whole of the Koran is written in a leaf.

Every aspect of nature is a symbol, which it is mans duty to interpret according to psychic laws.

Each word is also a symbol, that is interpreted according to what a man is in himself.

Vishnu is a symbol for a man to read and understand. The same as Allah.

The duty of a Sikh should be to read these symbols and understand them.

To regard Vishnu as Hindu and Allah as Islamic is a mistake

For such people the doors of wisdom will be closed.

The Namaz is also an outer symbol, but as a ritual not as a word or icon.

[jaikaara]

but that still wont make sense to switch to islam

[Kaljug]

So let me get this straight. Our ancestors were martyred, thousands of men, women and children achieved martyrdom rather than give up their faith for the cult of Mohammed, and you want to start doing namaz because some of your friends are being a l?

If you want the sangat of rehatvaan Gursikhs with noble character and Gursikhi jeevan, then do an ardas for this. There are sadhanas in Sankat Mochan and Sharda Pooran Granth do obtain the kind of Sangat.

At the end, no one will go with you. Not your friends, not your family, not your sangat, and none of your shiny new Muslim friends either. You are better off your doing your own bhagti and gaining some detachment and peace of mind that way.

K.

[jaikaara]

veers i haeva suggestion if our veer is feeling lonely anyone near him can visit him and we can start somewhere to stop what we been wanting to ..what say veers ?

[Kaljug]

veers i haeva suggestion if our veer is feeling lonely anyone near him can visit him and we can start somewhere to stop what we been wanting to ..what say veers ?

I am not worthy do be the dust on the feet of some of the Guriskhs here, but sarbatdapala ji, if you ever want to talk to about your concerns, or if you just want to shoot the breeze, send me a PM whenever.

Also, I would suggest that you obtain a circle of friends who share a common interest outside of religion, perhaps something like a martial arts group so that you have a circle of support from people who will not influence your religious ideals. Sometimes it is a good idea to have a non-religious activity on which you can focus your mind.

Regards,

K.

[Mr Sardar]

I would never convert to Islam purely for the basis of it's haddiths and having to regard the actions of the prophet muhammad equivalent to the actions of God. The haddiths advocate serious amounts of violence from cutting hands off, limbs, stoning apsotates to death where as in sikhi you are free (which alot of Sikhs have taken) to leave and have choice also most common problem is the prophet muhammad marriage to aisha of age of 6 and committing to the marriage at age 9. But when it comes to the sufi movements which have figures after the prophet muhammad things get intresting because some sufis through away all the haddiths saying there all unauthentic and anything can go. So a connection from such a tradition is possible. We understand that namaz does have phall it brings kamai- the bigger question is- IS IT FORBIDDEN FOR A SIKH TO DO IT WITHIN REHAT? There are scholar opinons that when it comes to Sheikh farid that he was such a great devotee of God that Guru Nanak appeared to him to revealed his own bani to him that is why Guru Nanak collected those saloks in person in his udassis as the same with all the other bhagats, so we can understand the Sikh tradition to have no link at all with any other tradition before.

Edited December 6, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[jaikaara]

veer ji sikhi is not abt permissions, sikhi is about will the will of Akaal, will the Akaal purakh ever will that his child goes in a dirty tunnel and gets lost forever ?

you are already on a beautiful path why are you dreaming of dark tunnels ?

[Bundha]

I would never convert to Islam purely for the basis of it's haddiths

but you may consider it on other grounds right ?

We understand that namaz does have phall it brings kamai- the bigger question is- IS IT FORBIDDEN FOR A SIKH TO DO IT WITHIN REHAT?

Who is this we? certainly not Sikhi.

I find it staggering that you still ask this question. If the namaz recognises Mohammad as the true prophet then HOW CAN A SIKH EVEN CONSIDER DOING A NAMAZ? Can you answer me that?

[amardeep]

Bunda:

Come on dont be so black and white to tear down a perfect valid form of worship. Baba Fareed did namaz as can be read in Gurbani. The question is whether Sikhs can perform Namaz where I think the answer is no

[Mr Sardar]

In addition the haddiths also teach that the prophet beheaded jews and raped jewish women as well as destroying pagan places of worship. I am building on the idea of how much respect would one have for such a religion, I have seen that what a sikh gets out of paath is sukh, shanti so do muslims gets out of namaz. I am also seeking the answers of broadminded thinkers not in a narrow minded way of thinking, Sikhism teaches pluraism even though many Muslims are separtists, a sikh does not need to compromise the belief of pluarism in return. Thank you amardeep would you say purely because you would have to accept the prophet muhammad as the final prophet or just entirety as a prophet? Gurbani itself says if you do not do namaz 5 times a day you are not a muslim. For sheikh farid a piece of sugar appeared for doing namaz. Muhammad's name appears in gurbani again and again what validation is given to such a figure- fictional character/prophet/king/? - Can we assert the idea that people corrupted the true religion of the prophet muhammad and Guru Nanak brought the true religion of God to show everyone the way. If we look at people like Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and Baba Nand Singh they teach a Sikh should become a proper Sikh, a Hindu become a proper hindu and muslim become proper muslim that you should do jaap of allah for muslims, ram for hindus and waheguru satnam for Sikhs- they did not try and convert people even being great scholars in religion when they could have. Sant Singh Maskeen does katha on how 1 sin of prophet muhammad is worth 1000s more on himself because he spread it to many. The haddiths even show that the prophet muhammad kept praying and was asked why do you keep praying when your sins have been forgiven - now we can understand that he sinned. Where as the Sikh Gurus are shown to have perfect virtues. The thing about sufi masters is they are said to be sent by God to bring people back into the true ways of Islam, where as in Sikhi we are devoid of this whole idea of praising of loving the prophet muhammad nor do we insult him- akal ustat bani declares the prophet muhammad did not hand religion down properly to people and had people remember him before God, we could dwell on the idea this is not literal and just shows how people twisted such a religion from its original path. Please I do benti of sangat to do ardas for me I would love to meet great sangat. On the other grounds of Islam everything it says in terms of the beutiful things are already in Sikhi- such as simran to remember god, to praise god to do sewa etc. just everything goes wrong in the haddiths where it starts the whole noition of separation, hatred non-tolerance, attacking- with the quran there are some really violent items but they have been interpreted by many scholars with violent ideas where by other scholars they do come to kind ideas of real peace, I am aware many muslims do like using the idea of twisting ideology to trap people later but what I am seeking is that there is hope for this religion to live in peace with Sikhs as well we do not need to fight about anything because we already agree on so much together. But I guess for now today a Sikh can not do namaz but maybe in 100 years from now things may be different all Muslims becomes Sikhs or vice versa or we live in harmony together.

Edited December 6, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[amardeep]

Namaz does'nt have anything to do with the prophet. The jews and christians also did namaz but eventually left it. Muhammad just continued the tradition of the previous prophets in the area.

My reason for saying no is because a sikh should stick to his own rehit and likewise a muslim should stick to his own sharia. Dont mix the rules and rituals of different religions together

[HarjasDevi]

In addition the haddiths also teach that the prophet beheaded jews and raped jewish women as well as destroying pagan places of worship. I am building on the idea of how much respect would one have for such a religion, I have seen that what a sikh gets out of paath is sukh, shanti so do muslims gets out of namaz. I am also seeking the answers of broadminded thinkers not in a narrow minded way of thinking, Sikhism teaches pluraism even though many Muslims are separtists, a sikh does not need to compromise the belief of pluarism in return. Thank you amardeep would you say purely because you would have to accept the prophet muhammad as the final prophet or just entirety as a prophet? Gurbani itself says if you do not do namaz 5 times a day you are not a muslim.

He said: "I am also seeking the answers of broadminded thinkers not in a narrow minded way of thinking,"

So I would respond that everyone has made an honest point. If you are feeling so cut off, you will not do wrong to explore something inclusive like Sufism or Bahais. Although you have answered yourself with fundamentalist Islam being example of severe intolerance and that isn't what you're seeking. Sikhi itself is without blemish, but it is (my own experience) very hard to find a sadhu sangat of spiritually wise and mature people. But don't condemn them overall for being simply human. People are where they are at. They may have grey hairs and even act as panj piare, and STILL be obnoxious, self-centered and unwelcoming persons. They also, in justice do not represent Sikhi, they can only represent themselves. Sikhi of course if viable and valid path. But as was pointed out honestly, can be very hard to walk when on veers and bhens are derailing you or ignoring and excluding you.

I don't think it is really a crisis unless you start to become like those who oppose you. It will not hurt you to explore other things, try Buddhist meditation, hatha yoga classes, join a Sufi Dhikr session, or do namaz. If some people find it objectionable (and I am really not pro-Muslim at all actually) they would find you objectionable anyway. I think it's important to sincerely search. The fact of the matter is there are saints of all religions because the God is One. Do your best to find that solace in this suffering world and so brief a life. Ultimately you are an atma and not a limited material identity from a certain country with a particular religion. You are free. You have always been free. You will always be free. And through many lifetimes have already been all these things.

If we people look for the mutual unity and respect of all these teachings, we could love each other. Imagine, we could bring heaven down to earth.

God is God no matter where or how you seek Him. And you are beloved of the God no matter how many mistakes you make. Just, be yourself, and do what comes natural. It is the culmination of many lives now distant, with some vague memories of many loved ones now distant. Don't be afraid to simply be "open" to what life brings you by way of spiritual practices. Some things will bring you closer based on YOUR karamas, vasanas, vrittis and kaleshas, and no one else can understand what moves and motivates you or why you think and act the way you do. Just remember that life is precious and all people are dear to the God. Remember that tolerance and respect for others is part of the inner purification that helps us see the "God in all."

And whether you come closer to Sikhi or go farther away, God is still God and you are ever a part of Him. Something deep within a human being can never be lost from Divine Love. So don't worry, just be sincere. Out of sincerity of the heart comes true compassion which is the true spirituality of the world. Try to be that. It's the saints really, of all races and religious traditions who come into the Presence of God. So you can't go wrong if you just love the good things.

[Mr Sardar]

"If we people look for the mutual unity and respect of all these teachings, we could love each other. Imagine, we could bring heaven down to earth."

Now that is something I am striving for, I am trying to find heaven in myself through Sikhi and share that peace with others- I am anticipating the idea that when religion opens up its bounds to longer being mutually exclusive and we live as such- I then brought about the question of would we be allowed to do namaz? Hence judging from your reply it seems yes, where as for others who are not in such light of thinking would say no but given time such thinking may become apparent although for now I would oppose doing namaz and would probably be more inclined towards doing yoga. I am not interested in converting nor am I interested in converting others at all but am interested in the future goal of a utopia a true khalsa raj an idea discussed here - http://www.sikhnet.com/news/khalistan-world-not-nation

Amardeep could you give me links to websites that discuss Jews and Christians doing namaz is it possible such a tradition may have been present in idea because we have the notion of prostrations there are some links between ancient Vedic tradition and Abrahamic traditions such as Brahma and Ibrahim link comparing genesis to rig veda.

Edited December 6, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[amardeep]

[Silence]

Sarbat da pala,ONE request: please do ardaas for answers to all your questions and then take a hukamnama.

If done with faith and if it pleases him, u will have all of your answers. If you need help interpreting post it here or ask gurmukhs/sants for help understanding. You could even listen to a katha of that shabad by someone like Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh Ji or Sant Kartar Singh ji (bhindra).

If you had Guru Gobind Singh Ji to ask this question to, you would wouldn't u? Well he is here as Guru Granth Sahib Ji, so get your answers from your Guru!

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥

Saṯgurū binā hor kacẖī hai baṇī.

Without the True Guru, other songs are false.

ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥

Baṇī ṯa kacẖī saṯgurū bājẖahu hor kacẖī baṇī.

The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false.

ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥

Kahḏe kacẖe suṇḏe kacẖe kacẖīʼn ākẖ vakẖāṇī.

The speakers are false, and the listeners are false; those who speak and recite are false.

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥

Har har niṯ karahi rasnā kahi▫ā kacẖẖū na jāṇī.

They may continually chant, 'Har, Har' with their tongues, but they do not know what they are saying.

ਚਿਤੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਪਏ ਰਵਾਣੀ ॥

Cẖiṯ jin kā hir la▫i▫ā mā▫i▫ā bolan pa▫e ravāṇī.

Their consciousness is lured by Maya; they are just reciting mechanically.

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥੨੪॥

Kahai Nānak saṯgurū bājẖahu hor kacẖī baṇī. ||24||

Says Nanak, without the True Guru, other songs are false. ||24||

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਰਤੰਨੁ ਹੈ ਹੀਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਜੜਾਉ ॥

Gur kā sabaḏ raṯann hai hīre jiṯ jaṛā▫o.

The Word of the Guru's Shabad is a jewel, studded with diamonds.

ਸਬਦੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੰਨੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਏਹੁ ਹੋਆ ਸਮਾਉ ॥

Sabaḏ raṯan jiṯ man lāgā ehu ho▫ā samā▫o.

The mind which is attached to this jewel, merges into the Shabad.

ਸਬਦ ਸੇਤੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਚੈ ਲਾਇਆ ਭਾਉ ॥

Sabaḏ seṯī man mili▫ā sacẖai lā▫i▫ā bẖā▫o.

One whose mind is attuned to the Shabad, enshrines love for the True Lord.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀਰਾ ਰਤਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਬੁਝਾਇ ॥

Āpe hīrā raṯan āpe jis no ḏe▫e bujẖā▫e.

He Himself is the diamond, and He Himself is the jewel; one who is blessed, understands its value.

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਰਤਨੁ ਹੈ ਹੀਰਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਜੜਾਉ ॥੨੫॥

Kahai Nānak sabaḏ raṯan hai hīrā jiṯ jaṛā▫o. ||25||

Says Nanak, the Shabad is a jewel, studded with diamonds. ||25||

Edited December 6, 2010 by Silence

[Mr Sardar]

I just did ardas asking maharaj for answer to my question took a cyber hukamanama and this is the shabad that came up WHAEGURU WHAEGURU WHAEGURU;

koeI AYso ry BytY sMqu myrI lwhY sgl icMq Twkur isau myrw rMgu lwvY ]2]

koee aiso rae bhaettai sa(n)th maeree laahai sagal chi(n)th t(h)aakur sio maeraa ra(n)g laavai ||2||

Is there any such Saint, who would meet with me, take away my anxiety, and lead me to enshrine love for my Lord and Master. ||2||

pVy ry sgl byd nh cUkY mn Byd ieku iKnu n DIrih myry Gr ky pMcw ]

parrae rae sagal baedh neh chookai man bhaedh eik khin n dhheerehi maerae ghar kae pa(n)chaa ||

I have read all the Vedas, and yet the sense of separation in my mind still has not been removed; the five thieves of my house are not quieted, even for an instant.

koeI AYso ry Bgqu ju mwieAw qy rhqu ieku AMimRq nwmu myrY irdY isMcw ]3]

koee aiso rae bhagath j maaeiaa thae rehath eik a(n)mrith naam maerai ridhai si(n)chaa ||3||

Is there any devotee, who is unattached to Maya, who may irrigate my mind with the Ambrosial Naam, the Name of the One Lord? ||3||

jyqy ry qIrQ nwey AhMbuiD mYlu lwey Gr ko Twkuru ieku iqlu n mwnY ]

jaethae rae theerathh naaeae aha(n)budhh mail laaeae ghar ko t(h)aakur eik thil n maanai ||

In spite of the many places of pilgrimage for people to bathe in, their minds are still stained by their stubborn ego; the Lord Master is not pleased by this at all.

kid pwvau swDsMgu hir hir sdw Awnµdu igAwn AMjin myrw mnu iesnwnY ]4]

kadh paavo saadhhasa(n)g har har sadhaa aana(n)dh giaan a(n)jan maeraa man eisanaanai ||4||

When will I find the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy? There, I shall be always in the ecstasy of the Lord, Har, Har, and my mind shall take its cleansing bath in the healing ointment of spiritual wisdom. ||4||

sgl AsRm kIny mnUAw nh pqIny ibbykhIn dyhI Doey ]

sagal asram keenae manooaa neh patheenae bibaekeheen dhaehee dhhoeae ||

I have followed the four stages of life, but my mind is not satisfied; I wash my body, but it is totally lacking in understanding.

koeI pweIAY ry purKu ibDwqw pwrbRhm kY rMig rwqw myry mn kI durmiq mlu Koey ]5]

koee paaeeai rae purakh bidhhaathaa paarabreham kai ra(n)g raathaa maerae man kee dhuramath mal khoeae ||5||

If only I could meet some devotee of the Supreme Lord God, imbued with the Lord's Love, who could eradicate the filthy evil-mindedness from my mind. ||5||

krm Drm jugqw inmK n hyqu krqw grib grib pVY khI n lyKY ]

karam dhharam jugathaa nimakh n haeth karathaa garab garab parrai kehee n laekhai ||

One who is attached to religious rituals, does not love the Lord, even for an instant; he is filled with pride, and he is of no account.

ijsu BytIAY sPl mUriq krY sdw kIriq gur prswid koaU nyqRhu pyKY ]6]

jis bhaetteeai safal moorath karai sadhaa keerath gur parasaadh kooo naethrahu paekhai ||6||

One who meets with the rewarding personality of the Guru, continually sings the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises. By Guru's Grace, such a rare one beholds the Lord with his eyes. ||6||

mnhiT jo kmwvY iqlu n lyKY pwvY bgul ijau iDAwnu lwvY mwieAw ry DwrI ]

manehat(h) jo kamaavai thil n laekhai paavai bagul jio dhhiaan laavai maaeiaa rae dhhaaree ||

One who acts through stubbornness is of no account at all; like a crane, he pretends to meditate, but he is still stuck in Maya.

koeI AYso ry suKh dweI pRB kI kQw sunweI iqsu Byty giq hoie hmwrI ]7]

koee aiso rae sukheh dhaaee prabh kee kathhaa sunaaee this bhaettae gath hoe hamaaree ||7||

Is there any such Giver of peace, who can recite to me the sermon of God? Meeting him, I would be emancipated. ||7||

supRsMn gopwl rwie kwtY ry bMDn mwie gur kY sbid myrw mnu rwqw ]

suprasa(n)n gopaal raae kaattai rae ba(n)dhhan maae gur kai sabadh maeraa man raathaa ||

When the Lord, my King, is totally pleased with me, He will break the bonds of Maya for me; my mind is imbued with the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

sdw sdw Awnµdu ByitE inrBY goibMdu suK nwnk lwDy hir crn prwqw ]8]

sadhaa sadhaa aana(n)dh bhaettiou nirabhai gobi(n)dh sukh naanak laadhhae har charan paraathaa ||8||

I am in ecstasy, forever and ever, meeting the Fearless Lord, the Lord of the Universe. Falling at the Lord's Feet, Nanak has found peace. ||8||

sPl sPl BeI sPl jwqRw ]

safal safal bhee safal jaathraa ||

My Yatra, my life pilgrimage, has become fruitful, fruitful, fruitful.

Awvx jwx rhy imly swDw ]1] rhwau dUjw ]1]3]]

aavan jaan rehae milae saadhhaa ||1|| rehaao dhoojaa ||1||3||||

My comings and goings have ended, since I met the Holy Saint. ||1||Second Pause||1||3||

DnwsrI mhlw 1 CMq

dhhanaasaree mehalaa 1 shha(n)tha

Dhanaasaree, First Mehla, Chhant:

<> siqgur pRswid ]

ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

qIriQ nwvx jwau qIrQu nwmu hY ]

theerathh naavan jaao theerathh naam hai ||

Why should I bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage? The Naam, the Name of the Lord, is the sacred shrine of pilgrimage.

qIrQu sbd bIcwru AMqir igAwnu hY ]

theerathh sabadh beechaar a(n)thar giaan hai ||

My sacred shrine of pilgrimage is spiritual wisdom within, and contemplation on the Word of the Shabad.

gur igAwnu swcw Qwnu qIrQu ds purb sdw dswhrw ]

gur giaan saachaa thhaan theerathh dhas purab sadhaa dhasaaharaa ||

The spiritual wisdom given by the Guru is the True sacred shrine of pilgrimage, where the ten festivals are always observed.

hau nwmu hir kw sdw jwcau dyhu pRB DrxIDrw ]

ho naam har kaa sadhaa jaacho dhaehu prabh dhharaneedhharaa ||

I constantly beg for the Name of the Lord; grant it to me, O God, Sustainer of the world.

sMswru rogI nwmu dwrU mYlu lwgY sc ibnw ]

sa(n)saar rogee naam dhaaroo mail laagai sach binaa ||

The world is sick, and the Naam is the medicine to cure it; without the True Lord, filth sticks to it.

gur vwku inrmlu sdw cwnxu inq swcu qIrQu mjnw ]1]

gur vaak niramal sadhaa chaanan nith saach theerathh majanaa ||1||

The Guru's Word is immaculate and pure; it radiates a steady Light. Constantly bathe in such a true shrine of pilgrimage. ||1||

swic n lwgY mYlu ikAw mlu DoeIAY ]

saach n laagai mail kiaa mal dhhoeeai ||

Filth does not stick to the true ones; what filth do they have to wash off?

guxih hwru proie iks kau roeIAY ]

gunehi haar paroe kis ko roeeai ||

If one strings a garland of virtues for oneself, what is there to cry for?

vIcwir mwrY qrY qwrY aulit join n Awvey ]

veechaar maarai tharai thaarai oulatt jon n aaveae ||

One who conquers his own self through contemplation is saved, and saves others as well; he does not come to be born again.

Awip pwrsu prm iDAwnI swcu swcy Bwvey ]

aap paaras param dhhiaanee saach saachae bhaaveae ||

The supreme meditator is Himself the philosopher's stone, which transforms lead into gold. The true man is pleasing to the True Lord.

Awnµdu Anidnu hrKu swcw dUK iklivK prhry ]

aana(n)dh anadhin harakh saachaa dhookh kilavikh pareharae ||

He is in ecstasy, truly happy, night and day; his sorrows and sins are taken away.

scu nwmu pwieAw guir idKwieAw mYlu nwhI sc mny ]2]

sach naam paaeiaa gur dhikhaaeiaa mail naahee sach manae ||2||

He finds the True Name, and beholds the Guru; with the True Name in his mind, no filth sticks to him. ||2||

sMgiq mIq imlwpu pUrw nwvxo ]

sa(n)gath meeth milaap pooraa naavano ||

O friend, association with the Holy is the perfect cleansing bath.

Edited December 6, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[Xylitol]

If you let us know where you live, sangat may be able to inform you of sadhus in your area. Although whether or not you get to meet them depends on karams and divine grace. If it is not in your karam you can do ardass for it, and sharda pooran granth has sadhanas so that you can gain this.

[Mr Sardar]

I will seek them out by maharajs kirpa. Also to add to inclusive list apart from Bahai and Sufis is also Ismalis.

I remember a katha from a sant, he said that we should have satkar - respect for every religion but to go to another religion is like a baby going to another mother for milk when his own mother is giving milk and such a thing is very wrong. So we can draw from that to insult some ones religion is like insulting another persons mother saying your mother is a whore and mine is good- we do not need to. Even though the Gurus and Bhagats challenged religious label such a thing being material still has a constraint we may not result in being material attached but we are still confined to it.

Also from what Amardeep is saying it almost seems like the prophet muhamad plagiarized previous traditions, he came around 600 years after Jesus so after taking the gospels of Jesus and adding more to it- Like even ancient Christianity stressed the ideals of remembering God removing ego- but in that revolution of muhammadinism we see a change in mentality towards military tradition such as those going for conquest. Even though the pagans were quite hostile to monotheism from Muhammad and his followers, the military tradition could have been in retaliation- of such these pagans upon conversion could have brought such hostiltiy in when writing haddiths- which explains the actions of aurangzeb he was only trying be a true muslim according to literature- whereas Sheikh Farid, Mian Mir and Bhai Mardana where being true muslim according to oral tradition or it is possible they were aware of this and seeked a renaissance- revolutionised-modernised-reformed understanding so they practised a newer formation of an older religion, but it is more likely this was how the tradition was until the inception of Muhammad Al-Wahhab bringing in wahabbi islam. Sufism also has a noition known as the meeting of the two occeans where when there religion meets with another they acknowledge it and marry the two traditions together such as when the persians meet the greeks the sufis took elements of the religion of the greeks - this may explain the kaalam of Baba Sheikh Farid and Baba Kabir Ji that is if we consider them to be human pieces of literature and not divine revelation calling Ram and Rahim to be the same. - However in India from the ancient vedic origins to the later bhagati movements we also see a marriage of concepts.

There are many scholars who may attribute Sufism to simply being an ideological trojan horse used for conversion if that is the case why not just send the trojan horse back? It is probable that there has been a whole means of corruption within that whole religion itself.

Edited December 7, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[amardeep]

Its not about plagiarizing, its about continuity. To continue a previous tradition and build upon.

Who said Bhai Mardana was a muslim? He was a sikh and was immersed in naam simran with Guru Nanak

Edited December 7, 2010 by amardeep

[amardeep]

Neo Singh earlier wrote:

Bhai Mardana Ji was a Sikh of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, he took naam amrit/charan amrit from guru ji..there is no question about that. He was not muslim but sikh of Guru Sahib but with that being said. Muslim Sikh is not oxymoron in the panth, it very much exist through gurbani and historical events.

For example- baba farid ji when baba farid ji gave up his shariat level of islam after 30 years of performing shariat rituals and realized higher spiritual levels of islam- tariqat, marfat and hakikat where he met his murshid and passed all the test laid down by his murshid and got bhramgyan (listen to sant isher singh ji rara sahib divan on baba farid ji for detailed sakhi).

Muslim Sikhs very much also existed through historical events in sikh panth when pir budda shah wanted to be murid of sri guru gobind singh ji and wanted to be sikh by advise of bikhan shah- shia muslim who had enough kirpa of allah to be first one to recognize sri guru gobind singh ji as vahiguroo/khuda roop when guru sahib in physical roop were just born. Anyway going back to the event when pir budda shah came to sri guru gobind singh ji to be sikh as in initiated. Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji said- Good gardener(mali) does not go to other gardens to get flower. You are great flower in garden of Islam. You are already blessed with love of allah, you should stay pakka in your dharam. You can read more about this sakhi in - paira padam singh book.

so yeah not everything is black and white in sikhi. People shouldn't follow one extreme or another extreme when doing analysis of Sikhism. This goes to both people who call themselves sanatanist so called broad minded undermining power of amrit and shariapanthis who are hell bent on limiting sikhi and sikhs behind sarbloh sachkhand doors only.

[Mr Sardar]

Thank you Amardeep for that reply, I have met a pir sahib who descended from Mian Mir he also used the term Muslim sikh and suggested that at the time of Guru Nanak there were Muslim Sikhs and Hindu Sikhs although there interpreation of events of history points to that school of thought rather then recognising khalsa panth as a solid route to salvation, he got this event of history from a copy of Mian Mirs diary which he still has with him he resides in Lahore perhaps if someone is interested in researching this they could ask for a request of a copy of that diary or translation. What is your take on that Amardeep, in regards to amrit sanchar- can there still be a Muslim Sikh in existence today, perhaps in Iran. Iraq or Afghan sangats, possibly Turkey?

Edited December 7, 2010 by sarbatdapala