Can A Sikh Do Namaz?

[Kaljug]

Pooja on the whole is forbidden in Sikh maryada but nothing is said about namaz

When you do namaz, you are doing pooja of a meteorite and some black cube in which the murti of Allah, his daughters Al-Lat and Al-Uzzah, and other Meccan deities used to reside.

K.

[Bundha]

Sinmrit Shaastra Bed sabhai bahu bhed kahai ham ek naa jaanyo|| Sri asipaan kripaa tumri kar mai na kahyo sabh tohe bakhaanyo||863||

Dohraa

Sagal duaar kau chhaad kai gahyo tuhaaro duaar|| Bahe gahe ki laaj as Gobind daas tuhaar||864||

I have left doors and come to your door God

Please correct me if I am wrong for the last translation- Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj is saying I have left all those religious books (i.e. the realms of worldly books) and have come to you God.

Bhaji these are two different shabads

- first starts "Pai gahay jab tay koo ankh nehi anio, Raam Reheem PURAN QURAN....

- Second is "Sagal duaar kau chhaad kai gahyo tuhaaro duaar|| Bahe gahe ki laaj as Gobind daas tuhaar||864||"

In the first Guru Ji rejects the Purans and the Qurans, you can say them a million times but I do not believe in them, Guru Ji says. So if the quran is rejected then how can you even contemplate doing nimaz?

Now Guru Gobind Singh maharaj also says

-Deora Masit soi, Pooja namaz ohi (Temple and Mosque are the same, Hindu way of prayer and the muslim method of prayer are the same)

-Manas ki jaat sabhe ake pehchanbo (Recognise whole human race as of one caste)

Guru Ji never advocates any other aradhna of Akaal Purkh other then that set out by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and consolidated by Himself with the panj banies/nitname. Here Guru Ji is saying that the pooja is the same and the nimaz is the same, that they both are in praise of Akaal, but it does not advocate that Sikhs do it, Guru Ji is showing here that different people remember God in different ways.

Pooja on the whole is forbidden in Sikh maryada but nothing is said about namaz

It also says nothing about the catholic confession, so do we start to contemplate doing this also ?

We are weak, we have priceless gems infront of us but we wonder off and seek out useless pebbles.

[jaikaara]

bundha bhaa ji let me start doing namaz, the more veers are dealing intellectually with him the more he is insisting, let him find peace in the 'aerobics' of namaaz !

[Mr Sardar]

This is not about me doing Namaz on contrary I do not really want to- Guru Nanak rotated Kabbah for a reason- God is omnipresent and the jyot of this kaljug is Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj- I only feel that I am failing to reflect that jyot with the rest of my Sikhs bros. I personally do not feel one should impose ones religion on to others so I do not feel we should send Sikh missionaries to Arabia, Persia and other Muslim nations to convert all these guys to Sikhism- However there is a way to live in peace with them by redirecting those who start fights back into there own religion. As for the future, inter-religious marriages are going to be something we ever reject or adapt with, where now we generally outcaste people who do out of sikhi when such a trend is also picking up in certain regions of the west- So if someone wishes to marry out instead of outcasting such an individual out of the Sikh faith we should adapt, be warm and welcoming and when it comes to there next generation we can show the beauty of doing paath and Sikhi. The amazing beuty of Japji sahib alone should be enough to convince someone about the true diamond Sikh dharma really is. The Gurus bani brought most of our Hindu ancestors into this faith if not alone for the rebellion movements that began against the moghul empire.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj does say;

ਸਤਰਿ ਸੈਇ ਸਲਾਰ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਕੇ ॥ ਸਵਾ ਲਾਖੁ ਪੈਕਾਬਰ ਤਾ ਕੇ ॥ ਸੇਖ ਜੁ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਠਾਸੀ ॥ ਛਪਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਸੀ ॥੧॥

(O person!) The God (you say) has 7,000 commanders, and (you say) has one hundred and twenty-five thousand prophets serving Him; He is said to have 88,000,000 old sheikhs (living at His door), and who (you say) has 56,000,000 attendants (up to His court). ||1||

ਮੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਕੀ ਕੋ ਗੁਜਰਾਵੈ ॥ ਮਜਲਸਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

I am meek and poor - what chance do I have of being heard there? (Then you say that) His Court is so far away (in the seventh sky); (I am a poor Weaver,) who will find God's House? ||1||Pause||

ਤੇਤੀਸ ਕਰੋੜੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਲ ਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਲਖ ਫਿਰੈ ਦਿਵਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਬਾਬਾ ਆਦਮ ਕਉ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਦਰਿ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥ ਉਨਿ ਭੀ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਘਨੇਰੀ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥

(The people who talk of Heaven also say that) He has 33,000,000 angels as His servants (how will they even listen to me?). His beings (separated and lost) wander insanely through 8.4 million incarnations. (O person! You say that God kept 'Adam' (the supposed father of Mankind) in Paradise, but according to you) when God (according to His Will) glanced his eye of Grace on Adam, then that Adam only enjoyed Paradise for a short while (because he was removed from there, so if people like Adam have been removed, then tell me, how long will someone like me be allowed to last there?) ||2||

ਦਿਲ ਖਲਹਲੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਜਰਦ ਰੂ ਬਾਨੀ ॥ ਛੋਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਰੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ॥ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੋਸੁ ਰੋਸੁ ਹੈ ਲੋਈ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥

Those who have forsaken (the path shown in) their religious-books and turn to follow bad practices, their hearts are disturbed (with wickedness and corruption), and their faces turn pale (i.e. he or she get pushed away from Waheguru's Door). A person receives the fruits of one's own action, but (in ignorance) one blames others, and gets angry with the world. ||3||

ਤੁਮ ਦਾਤੇ ਹਮ ਸਦਾ ਭਿਖਾਰੀ ॥ ਦੇਉ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਹੋਇ ਬਜਗਾਰੀ ॥ ਦਾਸੁ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਹ ਸਮਾਨਾਂ ॥ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਜੀਕਿ ਰਾਖੁ ਰਹਮਾਨਾ ॥੪॥੭॥੧੫॥

(O my Lord! I have no need for any Paradise or Heaven) You are my Great Giver, I am forever a beggar at Your Door (whatever You are giving me that is fine). If I were to deny You, then I would be a wretched sinner. Slave Kabeer has entered Your Shelter. O Merciful Lord Waheguru! Keep me near You Feet – that is heaven for me. ||4||7||15|

Bhaiji please give evidence for this statement made by you "Guru Ji never advocates any other aradhna of Akaal Purkh other then that set out by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and consolidated by Himself with the panj banies/nitname. Here Guru Ji is saying that the pooja is the same and the nimaz is the same, that they both are in praise of Akaal, but it does not advocate that Sikhs do it, Guru Ji is showing here that different people remember God in different ways. "

The whole point of praising maharaj has its phall- Additionally if so many ways exisit are we to live with all the ways and follow our own or does one go about bringing everyone into the ways of nitnem? Why is it majority of Sikhs have left doing nitnem or never done it? Additionally why the need to insult those who do such a prayer as aerobics we also do our ardas and prostrations offcourse for us many of our minds are else where during our prayers. Kabbah actually is not a cube it is actually supposed the birth place of Abraham (hence one of the first few instances of monotheism starting in the world) and is actually a building complex which used to house many idols, so it was a mandir at one point you can watch youtube videos of how it looks on the inside, its covered with marble. So its really alot of people bowing to an ancient temple.

Edited December 9, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[jaikaara]

sarbat da pala ever ji i m sorry if i sounded harsh but please do not be Harjas Kaur/devi/bibi pehen ji part II !!! we have enough of headache from her insisting vaishnavism and now if you go sufi ..we will go crazzzzzzyyyyyyy !!!!

[Mr Sardar]

lol sorry If you think I am going on tangent- I am just interesting in having a discussion about this matter.

I have heard alot of Sikh gianis and parcharks always link Sikhism to Hindu tradition when it comes to calling Guru Nanak an avtar (Guru Nanak throughout history is considered a pir which in today's understanding could class him as a prophet) and giving sakhis of hindu avtars in gurdwaras to give the context of shabads. But there seems to be a lack of understanding behind Sufi traditions, hence why I am asking about this stuff and looking into it myself- That not many Sikhs even like to believe such a link exists between Abrahamic (semetic) traditions [perhaps due to the terrible relations sikhs and muslims have - it does not help when we are classed as infidels] and Sikhism even though both in the modern world are monotheistic.- I would understand an avtar as a manifestation of God so hence we can call them a prophet in that respect, but a prophet is someone who has a prophecy or message to reveal, This message of God and good virtues has always been around, just in different forms- Another question is an avtar/prophet born or becomes one or abit of both?

We also see in sampooran rehiras sahib;

"har jug jug bhagath oupaaeiaa paij rakhadhaa aaeiaa raam raajae ||

In each and every age, He creates His devotees and preserves their honor, O Lord

King."

It is intresting to see if we may class Sikhi as duniya sanjha dharam (all world collected religions as a Nihang singh said on a youtube video) as such a continuity of previous traditions or as a complelty unique and separate movement just using the language of previous movements.

sampooran rehiras also say;

kaal paaey kar bisan(u) prkaasaa. skl kaal kaa kiaa tmaasaa. (7)

Time came when Brahma appeared in physical form, then Shiva was incarnated and

then Visnu. It is all the Play of the Temporal Lord. (7)

javan kaal jogi siv kio. beyd raj brahma joo thio.

javn kaal sabh lok svaaraa namskaar hai tah(i) hamaaraa. (8)

The Temporal Lord created Shiva, the Yogi; Brahma, the Utterer of Vedas. The

Temporal Lord, Who fashioned the entire Universe, I salute to Him alone. (8)

javan kaal sabh jagat banaaio. dev dait jachchan oopjaio.

Aad(i) ant(i) eikai avtaaraa. soee guru samjhiayho hamaaraa (9)

He, Who is the Creator of Time and the Universe, also created the angels, demons

and yakshas. He alone was in the beginningand will also be at the end of the Time.

He alone is my Guru. (9)

namskaar tis hi ko hamaari. sakal prajaa jin aap svari.

sivkan ko sivgun sukh dio sttrun ko pul mo badh kio. (10)

I make my obeisance to Him alone, Who has created all His subjects and preserves

them. He has blessed His devotees with all merits and happiness and destroys

enemies [inner dis-hormony] instantaneously. (10)

More importantly where would a True Sikh draw the line between pluarism and separtism- Is there a balance?

Edited December 9, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[jaikaara]

this sufi bug has bitten a lot of people in the world veer ji , qawaals are claiming sufi lineage , here in BOLLY WOOD we overgrown permed hair guys singing in shitty harsh tones are now sufi singers.

of what i know, i m no scholar veera but i had read something in childhood about sufis they were a saintly order in persia.

if i get some more info shall post it, please do not put mian mir and bhai mardana into the sufi bracket.

veer ji sikhi has roots in dharma ( do not mistkae it for the english wrod religion ) of hindustaan , the hindus claim monopoly over it but thats not true.

where in vedas do you come across the word hindu ? when did RAJA Ramchander ji ever say he was hindu ?

now sikhi was born in india and therefore it will be absolutely and very strongly growing from the philosphies here and not abrhamic traditions.

[Mr Sardar]

Sikhi is beyond India- Guru Nanak was born near Lahore where his birthplace and many dharmik istans belong to Pakistan, Many of the first few Sikhs where in Afghanistan, who met Guru Nanak- some are the idigeneous people of Afghanistan belonging to kourd community, or from Arora backgrounds there are some rare who claim decent from Muslims. Sikhism first dharmikstan was established in Iraq where Guru Nanak met Pir Dastigir. I have heard people say Baba Deep Singh sent Guru Granth Sahib translations into Arabic to there to be tought so it is implied there where Arab Sikhs living in Iraq who may possibly reside in Punjab now the demographics are hard to categorise. Also 3ho movement in America has sparked off a newer trend it seems that if someone (goora) wants to learn alot about Sikhi the best place to start is with 3ho for them. With the information age Sikhi has gone passed all borders now, India does not do alot for this dharma to grow and there are many restrictions that are in place which really provoke khalistani movements such as the Indian Constitution not recognising Sikhism as a separate religion to Hinduism but a part of it.

I am aware that the whole idea of Sufism failing in later days, it probably allowed the growth of the Ottoman Empire (some Muslim scholars believe Wahabbism is an invention of the British to produce the divide, conquer and rule- inhibiting conquering the world) as it was pluarist. It strikes to me that is where the roots of the prophet Muhammad must have been as a prophet who was loved- Sufi tradition grew out of that. Ancient Arabia was not so separate to Vedic traditions or its manifestations such as Zoroastrianism which advocated monotheism or Gnosticism (ancient Christianity) so there are links between ancient mysticism on the whole. Sufism was used in its later days in brothels, it is also used in modern times in Afghanistan for bachi-bazi where male boys are raped and pushed in prostitution- paedophilia is also a by-product. It is sad to see a mystic tradition fall to into prostitution.

Edited December 9, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[jaikaara]

lahore was a part of Hindustand then mere ever, Guru Nanak ji Maharaj Pehli Paatsahi had travelled so much and had spread the Dharma.

I had been to Ladakh near Kashmir and had visited Pathar Sahib Gurdwara a couple of years ago, i was suprised to find Guru Maharaj as a part of buddhism, the people there also consider Him Guru, more like a Lama the locals told me that they regard Him equivalent to Guru Rinpoche !!!

[Mr Sardar]

Apart from being a Pir, Guru and Lama- There is a book I read once which said there was an argument during the times of British Raj- after learning about Guru Nanak they said this person must have been a Christian his teaching belong to the Gospels of Jesus they argued he is a Christian Saint. He is also a theologian, figure of history, a philosopher, a healer, a king, a great sage and to some God himself. God is one and the same and his teachers/messengers/prophets/devotee are many. There is an order of buddhists who do not even cut there hair- also there are some orders of sufis and hindus who do not cut there hair. The Sikhs of Guru Nanak are his legacy and tomorrow's Sikh history is today.

Perhaps we could argue that Islam has just plagiarized Hinduism from the vedas?

Edited December 9, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[jaikaara]

so namaz da plan cancel bhaa ji ??

[Mr Sardar]

I did not even have a plan to.

But I will always respect those who do and I will always respect other people and there religions.

Additionally I also advocate those who do play a role in this sullah calling chakar etc. hating other people and there religions to stop. Maharaj taught us to Love our enemies and to respect other people's religions. There are individuals even today who do wrong things if we have issues, we should take it up with the individual or set group. As for inter-religious marriages we will have to accept it, it is happening, it is a reality and most likely going to carry on happening.

Edited December 9, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[jaikaara]

eeeeeeeeeeekkssssssss then why did u even name the thread so ??

abbe yaar bhaa ji tusi baot tension dende ho sangat nu !

[Mr Sardar]

However on the basis of all this discussion and more would anyone think of trying to convert Muslims to Sikhism some of these points of the defects in Haddiths are very logically apparent and Sikhism does give a very easy solution the only issue would be of kesh and kakkars but when it comes to being a sehajdhari sikh and being practice of nitnem, simran, sewa and satsangat it is much more appeasable. Without having to say that the Prophet Muhammad did not exist.

It does seem logical that God would not want people to be stoned to death, hands cut off, brutally murdered etc. hence removing the nature of the most merciful, most forgiving and most loving away from God himself.

Where such teachings are better taken up such as refraining from lust, anger, greed, worldly attachment, ego/pride to take on virtues truth, contentment, compassion, mercy, humility, love. As well as forgiveness, mastery, spirtual-temporaral concept(saint-warrior), charity, sharing, remembrance of God, selfless service, staying in company of Good, to earn an honest living, to give 10% of what you earn, avoiding glutney, taking minimum from the world-material goods, sleep, food. To avoid backbitting, gossip, slander, to take up righteous action, to be upright, to be brave, to fear nothing but God, to respect everyone, to respect all religions i.e. pluaristic, to fight oppression against anyone and to stand up for everyone, to be pure, to be chaste- and maintain relations with 1 partner, to pray for the wellfare of everyone, to Love God and your neighbour, To accept there is one God and he has many names and many prophets/masters/avtars etc.

Edited December 9, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[HarjasDevi]

"It's interesting that had the original question of the topic poster been asked of a Sikh a decade ago the automatic answer would have been a NO and possibly followed by a rebuke to the questioner for asking such a question. Not offence to the original poster but that that is what would have happened a few years ago."

Yes that's a real solution to all the honest problems expressed by the original poster.  Threaten them and treat them rudely if they dare tell the truth about problems.  I have a better idea, why not do an honest evaluation of own Sikhi community and look for the ways the problems could be alleviated, rather than justified, denied, and blamed on the persons who lose faith with you.  And don't blame GURU!  People lose faith with Sadhu sangat because they don't have one.  Gursikhi is predicated on having a sadhu sangat.  Otherwise Sikhi is just a do-it-yourself exercise.  And then people get blamed when they have insights and understandings which diverge from (put whatever fanatical little rejecting sect you want here).  If we don't have wise, spiritually mature elders in a true sangat, people won't reach that maturity for themselves.  So this is what we see in Kaliyug, a spiritual stunting, a showmanship, holy clothes without holy hearts,  rote memorization and no sincere, caring wisdom.

Well keep ostracizing, trashing and threatening people who lose faith with you and even for daring to question and spiritually search.  But don't be surprised if the next generation flees.  Without love you have nothing at all.  The roop does not represent anything without love of people and caring about their problems and their human needs.  People are willing to die for their brother.  No one is willing to live for a community which doesn't exist for them.

Think about it.  If some pir or guru or sect is willing to give somebody shelter and acceptance and welcoming, who in the hell is anybody to judge it?  Least of all to hide their own hatred and rejection of people.  The scandal isn't the people who leave you.  The scandal is the behaviors which cause them to leave.  You can't keep anybody by bullying.  Better you should try to befriend and respect them and understand what the difficulty is.  And accept, that sometimes somebody really may spiritually belong to another Master.  But why lose a friend?  See, this is fanatical thinking.  

ਸੈਲ ਪਥਰ ਮਹਿ ਜੰਤ ਉਪਾਏ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਆਗੈ ਕਰਿ ਧਰਿਆ ॥੧॥

sail pathhar mehi janth oupaaeae thaa kaa rijak aagai kar dhhariaa ||1||

From rocks and stones He created living beings; He places their nourishment before them. ||1||

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਜੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸੁ ਤਰਿਆ ॥

maerae maadhho jee sathasangath milae s thariaa ||

O my Dear Lord of souls, one who joins the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, is saved.

~SGGS Ji ang 10

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ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਲਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

sathasangath sathagur paaeeai ahinis sabadh salaahi ||1|| rehaao ||

The True Guru is found in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation. Day and night, praise the Word of His Shabad.

~SGGS Ji ang 22

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ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤੀ ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਬੈਰਾਗਿ ॥

jin kinai paaeiaa saadhhasangathee poorai bhaag bairaag ||

Whoever has found it, has done so in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

Through perfect good fortune, such balanced detachment is attained.

~SGGS Ji ang 29

[Mr Sardar]

In this day and age the best sangat to have is books, leaflets and websites- Language is a big issue as well when many religious preachers/priests refuse to speak totally or partially in english by equivalencing punjabi to the language of God (it is the language of the Guru's)- But there needs to be some use of English so kids can pick it up- at the moment it is one extreme or the other total english or total punjabi in a gurdwara. Additionally leaflets/pamphlets should be at every Gurdwara sahib for free- it is so difficult to learn about Sikhi at all- it takes extensive research on the Internet and going down a route which is expected of a phd student - What is the point of priests and scholars if you have to do everything. Most gianis and raagis I have seen talk heavily about money all the time, how to pray for it, how to chase, how not to chase, how if you pray you will get Money, How money is evil - etc- Or you will go to hell if you cut your hair- anyone who cuts there hair is bad- When the focus should be on doing nitnem- arranging classes for nitnem throughout the day rather then a giani waiting around for customers to buy a wish from god.

Leaflets in every Gurdwara sahib should be present for free(such as even www.projectnaad.com ones) - Books in English should be available- Start donating books about Sikhism to Libraries all around everywhere Sikhi will spread through books or the very least who the Sikhs are, who there gurus are and there values.

It is sad people want to advocate violence on those who talk about Sikhi but have nothing to say about those majority of people who call themself Sikh in clubs drinking, sleeping around doing drugs or those majority in Gurdwara doing so much pakhand and kuffar by fighting in Guru maharaj hazoori or doing chugli/nindya or talking about jaat-paat. When today the reputation of a Sikh has become a barbaric alcoholic who is racist. It would seem if someone was in need of mukhti it would be easier to defect to another religion rather then attempting to reform an entire religion or ending up being a satanic hedonist.

Edited December 9, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[tonyhp32]

Unfortunately some things need to be said and since we are all adults here I assume some no nonsense views might do some good to some people.

There was no threat of violence or rudeness from me. I just stated that facts as I see them. Too many fools running around after Sadhus/Pirs/Fakirs/Fake Gurus who are basically charlatans with an agenda. It's such bhajj natth which was never there before that has led to nonsense questions like 'Can a Sikh do Namaz?' It won't be long before someone comes on here and would like to know whether he can say 'Hail Mary', indulge in self mutilation with the Shias or even eat Halal meat.

Some people on here argue that it is insensitivity to the questions that some Sikhs come up with that leads to some fools running off to other religions. In my mind it's the over sensitivity to the feelings of fools who should know better that it leading to such things. Sikhs were also known as no nonsense people, now we bend over backwards to answer questions which a few years ago would have invited a slap and probably brought a fool to his senses. Why weren't Sikhs in the 18th century to a decade ago not running off to other religions? It was because Sikhs weren't wishy washy bleeding heart liberal idiots bending over backwards not to hurt the poor sap who has been enamoured by some whirling Sufi layabout.

[HarjasDevi]

"There was no threat of violence or rudeness from me."

The issues are bigger than you personally. The facts are clear, threats and bullying, swaggering bravado do not touch the heart of the problems in Sikh/Punjabi community. they only push the problems underground where they fester like a cancer. the problems are not "other religions." The problem is lack of community, lack of cohesion, lack of sadhu sangat, lack of spiritually mature role models and waaayyy too much pindu mentality pretending to be "Sikh religion."

"Too many fools running around after Sadhus/Pirs/Fakirs/Fake Gurus who are basically charlatans with an agenda."

So everyone on earth is a fake, but fake sangats which are unloving, alienating, ostracizing are NOT fake, eh? You have no concept of the real issues if you think that. Seriously, you must be like an atheist who doesn't believe in God or some small pindu who thinks he has God in his own hip pocket and looks down at everyone else as "fake." At the same time ignoring own fakes, granthis who only want money, who download porn during Akhand paaths, gurdwaras that are like social clubs who fawn after wealthy contributors and ignore everyone else. is this the kind of "fake" you were talking about? Because people stop going to Gurdwara when they get bombarded with materialism, semi-atheism, gangsterism, etc.

So my point is not to bash on Gurdwaras but the problems being discussed in this thread are real, and that hand that points a finger of blame at everyone else has four other fingers pointing back at oneself. The PROBLEM is the unloving charlatans in own sangat who pretend to be the "true Sikhs." And this mentality drives people away. People will go to where they are welcomed. Now, maybe it doesn't affect "you personally." But honestly, look around your local sangat, and tell me their aren't marginalized, alienated, ignored people. And I will tell you now, what I told earlier...Sikh community is losing those people. No! Sikh community is throwing them away, and then crying about all the fakes and hypocrites and refusing to look in the damn mirror. And this business about bullying, mocking, further ostracizing and even (not necessarily you) threatening people who already aren't fitting in goes a long way to making certain they never do.

And you can blame everyone else and hide behind Sikh religion. But as the post by SDP stated clearly, without a sadhu sangat, and feeling hatred and rejection from own Singhs, people definitely will search for God elsewhere. Because they can. Because God isn't only with the fake people who pretend so much and ignore so many and delude themselves as only people in the world who have a "real" spirituality when they don't even know what that is.

the criticism here was never about Sikhism. It was about problems in this Kaliyug with Sikhs in general. And having also experienced some of that myself, I can attest to the truth of these kinds of problems where someone is just like garbage to the rest of the sangat. And people who steal and cheat and run big successful businesses become the most beloved....for their $$$.

Yea, fake pirs and babas all right. Next time, take an honest look at own local granthis. Not everything is fake. Not every Sikh sangat sincere. THAT is the problem we are discussing here.

As to Namaz or yoga, or poojas or whatever, seriously it's less a sin to sincerely seek than the hard-drinking abusive "elders" in own community whose entire life is a fake, who beat their wives and cheat on their amrit and STILL are respected and fawned after. You think the kids don't know these things are going on? You think it's just some post with an agenda? I know 3 very intelligent and well-educated boys who gave up their amrit and quit going to Gurdwara AFTER their rich businessman father divorced their mother (who kept faithfully her amrit vows) and was literally HATED and OSTRACIZED by entire Gurdwara because her rich ex-husband was a "committee member." So that's 3 former amritdhari boys right there. And when that duplicitous father dies, that whole family is already gone. Was it a good exchange? Some greased palms to throw away the faith of 3 Sikh boys?

See, that's the point. Those are the problems. And it's not about saying namaz or hail mary or hail devi. It's about finding a COMMUNITY that actually welcomes you and gives you a sense of sangat with a spiritual vibration. So instead of trashing and mocking what you obviously can't understand, you should do some soul searching about your own local community. Because blame and bullying and threats of violence are far too often the ONLY response to these kinds of problems. Just like when the kids of the amritdhari committee member threw rocks at and chased those 3 amritdhari boys out of the Gurdwara parking lot...in a show of support for their drinking, wife beating, cheating father...well, for his money anyway. I assure you, they will never forget the terribly cruel and ugly things said about their faithful amritdhari mother by that sangat. And I know why they don't go to Gurdwara anymore. And if one day they want to recite namaz or practice yoga or do Buddhist meditation or attend a pooj at mandir...God bless them. May the God Govinda who is mercy reach them in whatever way they can be reached. Isn't that what it's about anyway?

[HarjasDevi]

"to some fools running off to other religions."

Be careful. You keep denying and failing to deal with the obvious problems in Sikh sangat, and one day it might be your own beloved son.

[Mithar]

Unfortunately some things need to be said and since we are all adults here I assume some no nonsense views might do some good to some people.

There was no threat of violence or rudeness from me. I just stated that facts as I see them. Too many fools running around after Sadhus/Pirs/Fakirs/Fake Gurus who are basically charlatans with an agenda. It's such bhajj natth which was never there before that has led to nonsense questions like 'Can a Sikh do Namaz?' It won't be long before someone comes on here and would like to know whether he can say 'Hail Mary', indulge in self mutilation with the Shias or even eat Halal meat.

Some people on here argue that it is insensitivity to the questions that some Sikhs come up with that leads to some fools running off to other religions. In my mind it's the over sensitivity to the feelings of fools who should know better that it leading to such things. Sikhs were also known as no nonsense people, now we bend over backwards to answer questions which a few years ago would have invited a slap and probably brought a fool to his senses. Why weren't Sikhs in the 18th century to a decade ago not running off to other religions? It was because Sikhs weren't wishy washy bleeding heart liberal idiots bending over backwards not to hurt the poor sap who has been enamoured by some whirling Sufi layabout.

As always Tony Jee, you said it like it is.

[Xylitol]

there's a balance point that i feel is ideal, when a person does not indulge in ridiculous liberal wishy washyness and remains firm in advocating proper sikhi but also is tolerant and not overbearing. such firm views delivered with prem and without a judgmental attitude won't ostracise others, and will eventually help in bringing many into the fold.

naturally, those people with a chip on their shoulder would stiff have problems with this approach like the socalled ''modern sikhs'' who think amrit is unnecessary.

[Mr Sardar]

I totally agree with harjas, to add to that- what alot of people are pushing for is we take ourselves back 300-500 years to the time of the Gurus; It is time to move forward times have changed- Yes we keep sikhi, we keep our fundamentals but alot has happened that is Good- such as UN acts, human rights, women rights, movements against domestic violence, against child abuse, movements against racism which all are in line with gurmat- And Sikhi teaches all this- The whole idea of slapping someone is Nihang Singh/Jatt mentality that needs to stop, there are many reasons why Sikhs lost there empire, slapping probably one of them, the whole jhatka mentality not thinking before acting- Guru Nanak went around the whole world singing with love the praises of God- Guru Nanak saved kaljug by praising God and being true- Sikhs need to live up to the name of Guru Nanak instead of living up to being punjabi- drinking, fighting, being hankari saying we are the best- the reason we "were" the best was because of humility which has gone down the toilet for alot of us. Gurmat has come to place with other dharams but is still struggling to come to its home of Sikhi many other religions have been reformed especially Christianity and Islam to teachings which belong to Guru Nanak.

True love (pyare and prem) is more powerful then any hand. If you want to humble someone, be a true Sikh be like water and shower love- Maharaj defined sikhs as saints first then warriors- it takes a real warrior to fight krodh and his/her temptations- to fight for justice not to be a barbaric hankari nindak. People may be under nasher but it is time to sober up- and out of this discussion it seems doing namaz is not paap- it is phaal, in this day and age it is easier to do yoga and namaz then nitnem-due to people's lack of practice and nature.

Edited December 10, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[Mr Sardar]

Also please check out facebook group

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=21937945215&v=wall

have a look at the photo section as well

Edited December 10, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[HarjasDevi]

Also please check out facebook group

http://www.facebook....37945215&v=wall

have a look at the photo section as well

I'll be impressed when I see Muslims trying to start a Hindu friendship page since weaning Sikhs away from Hindu unity and Indian nationalism has long been the goal of Pakistan.  Also, I would have higher respect for Muslims if I saw them actually trying to reform the vioklence of certain parts of Haddiths and Quran instead of maintaining silence and/or collusion with the radical interpretation.  Also, I am very dismayed that Islam actively promotes conversion and condemnation of Hinduism, yet threatens death penalty on any Muslim who converts.

You should consider that Islam will never honestly accept guru Granth Sahib as valid spiritual teaching because of the devatay and avtaray which are part of the teaching, regardless of whether mainstream Sikhi subornates them to demi-god status or not.  And as to Gurus ever being any kind of "Abrahamic prophet" it's a stretch.  Sufism borrows from the Hindu Bhaktas and the Nath yogis and teaches many things condemned to death by Islamic fundamentalists.  in which case, I do not see how there can be "friendship" in general with Islam at all, until the death threats and condemnations and blanket rejection of every other religion ceases.

[laalsingh]

in this day and age it is easier to do yoga and namaz then nitnem-due to people's lack of practice and nature.

It is not 'in this day and age'. It is ALWAYS.

Guru says, "ਸਿਰ ਧਰ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਆਓ". One is just physical exercises, second is peer pressure for you, nothing else. Third is the way to go, if one dares.