Can A Sikh Do Namaz?

[Mr Sardar]

Well the whole idea of avtars does not make sense in Abrahamic countries as it is an eastern idea best way to translate it is as a prophet and angels- quran says a warner was sent to every nation (to warn about God) also says there have been 125,000 prophets and only mentions a few such as moses(mosa), abraham(ibrihim), jesus(isa), yusuf(joseph), muhmaad- to which we could dare even add Krishna (from Bhagat-gita and Mahabharat) or add avtars from puranic tradition i.e. chandi, durga, kali, shivji, , avtars from vedic tradition such as Indra devta and it's writer Brahma, avtars from Ramyan such as Ram and his chela Hanuman, ranging from Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva of the shakti of akal purkh- And many more as the essence of hinduism is monotheism- however delivered through panatheistic domain and understood by majority as polytheism. We can find even pooja existing amongst the sufi understanding ther are sufis who ask of the virgin marry in pictorial form.

Islam would need to consider Prophet Muhammad as the most beloved prophet out of all prophets as he is the seal of the prophets but the bahai understand this as he is the "grace" -i.e. he has humbled himself before all the prophets before him. Guru Nanak's existence is not even known to many muslims if we could prove he turned the kabbah perhaps by identifying cracks in the foundation stone and doing carbon dating it would change alot- but he would be considered a pir and that is a step up from being non-existent. I know Guru Nanak existed there is too much evidence to suggest that he is not just a folk legend- the Sikhs are the legacy of him and it is time to live up to that.

Thing about the haddith's issues is that it may be better if Muslims do not know about them because imagine a majority of people acting upon it thinking God wants to do that however the scholars who know this could be debated on the basis it is all unauthentic- now those who sufis/bahais/perhaps ismalis who know this also need the backing of people such as Christians- Jews-Hindus- Sikhs-Agnostics-Atheiest i.e. Non-Mohammadens as those threaten everyone else. If that religion is toned down into ancient Christianity form with the teachings being the gospels of jesus and namaz then hope is there for world peace so perhaps with time, teaching a wishy wash interpreation will actually overtake the mainstream understanding.

Also you can message those people who started the Sikh-Muslim friendship page they are actually sufi muslims who take part in interfaith events and talks. I believe they would be glad to start a hindu-muslim page, not every Muslim is a wahabbi nut case there are those who want peace in the world as well.

Edited December 11, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[HarjasDevi]

"Well the whole idea of avtars does not make sense in Abrahamic countries as it is an eastern idea best way to translate it is as a prophet."

You can't honestly translate avatar as prophet unless you are being deceptive. A prophet is a specially called human being who brings a message from the God to the people. An avatar is the indwelling personality of the God in human form. If you make an avatar into a prophet, you deny his identity completely. He isn't a "warner" and He isn't a "messenger." He is the literal God, as Gurbani says, "Only He Himself knows Himself." He knows Himself, and is not delivering a message like a courier and a dasa. there is nothing wrong with the Abrahamic conception of God but it doesn't fit the definition and understanding of God in Gurbani, because Gurbani is rooted in "eastern" philosophical thought and hence discusses nirguna and sarguna and devatay and avtaray. Just as it discusses stories from Puranas. Why try to make a teaching of a Satguru and avatar into a mere human messenger, capable of making mistakes in his message?

"also says there have been 125,000 prophets and only mentions a few such as moses(mosa), abraham(ibrihim), jesus(isa), yusuf(joseph), muhmaad- to which we could dare even add Krishna (from Bhagat-gita and Mahabharat) or add avtars from puranic tradition"

So now Bhagavan Krishna is a human prophet? Don't you think this would distort completely the authentic spiritual teachings which form the basis of Krishna as purna avatar? I mean, if you want to be at all intellectually honest with the source material and not try to re-interpret it from Abrahamic paradigm that is. Of course if someone has the narrow restriction that he can only understand world-view from Abrahamic perspective, then that is what he must believe. But you have to repress, deny and distort the actual scriptural teachings of Krishna in order to make it work.

i.e. chandi, durga, kali, shivji, , avtars from vedic tradition such as Indra devta and it's writer Brahma, avtars from Ramyan such as Ram and his chela Hanuman, ranging from Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva of the shakti of akal purkh- And many more as the essence of hinduism is monotheism-

Okay, let's be honest here. We often use the term "monotheism" to describe a primary Oneness of God as it is best understood in the west. But like the designation "prophet" for "avatar" it really doesn't fit and is imprecise and inauthentic. Monotheism according to Abrahamic religions means something very peculiar to them. Starting with the Jewish Shema:

"Hear O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is One." and also from the ten commandments: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Those two concepts are married to each other. And in order for the first concept to be true and not logically false, the "other gods" have to be fake imposters or demons. Otherwise, there are many gods and the primary God of Abrahamics is merely "jealous" of them. So in order for the Abrahamic conception to be true... Hinduism must be "false" and so devatay are not considered as actual gods or demi-gods (which only means in this level of reality they have god-like powers but in the overall schema they are small compared to the Greatness which is beyond our comprehension, the nirgun nature which is agochar.)

And now, they will become "prophets." Well, that's nice. But you simply have to relegate entire body of Hindu scriptural support into the trash and rewrite hinduism to make it fit such a schema. Because the actual teaching is that the One created a world of duality in which there is no Oneness which can be perceived due to Mayayog. Instead, we see divisions of things. So the God Absolute appears to take these many forms, not only devatay and avataray, but humans, animals, living beings, material nature, rocks even. the One Absolute is pervading within all. but these are mere parts and parcels of the One. However, in this conscious reality, all these things have definitive manifestation. The atmas of the living beings are covered over with aggregates and defilements of consciousness, the necessity of haumai in order to be a self-preserving individual in a competitive world, etc. And of course, carrying the imprints of tendencies and karmas. But the true nature of every one of us...is itself Divine and sits like a witness in the conscience of our hearts as the ultimate Divine Guide, if only we could be attuned to that. So this can never really be mistaken for any Abrahamic "monotheism." It is more akin to a panentheism even than the western definition of polytheism, as you mentioned.

"We can find even pooja existing amongst the sufi understanding ther are sufis who ask of the virgin marry in pictorial form."

Most of the Sufi sects have a heavy Hindu and Buddhist influence and often large concentrations in regions where people had formerly been Hindu or Buddhist and somehow converted or been forced to convert under Mughal invasions. So the hidden teachings among most Sufi schools include forbidden teachings like reincarnation and yogic trance and belief in teachers with powers and divinities outside the accepted Islamic conception. Perfect example is the teaching of chakras and Nath yogic system as well as Guru-chela relationships. None of these originates from Abrahamic teaching. but does relate to the region of Kashmir and Afghanistan and relates to ancient tantric "non-Islamic" traditions. And that is why many of these sects of Sufism which openly teach these practices are considered heretical, and only those sects which conform to the more conservative Islamic definition are actually tolerated within al-Islam.

Islam would need to consider Prophet Muhammad as the most beloved prophet out of all prophets as he is the seal of the prophets

See, here is the crux of it, the prophet Mohammed means nothing at all within the hindu paradigm. he isn't even close to an avatar and in Bhavishya Purana he is considered a deceptive demon. Probably biggest reason is his denial of any validity to Hinduism and deadly persecution of "polytheists." Now, he can be accepted as a historical figure of great importance to Islamics. But there is nothing in his message which brings anything to Hinduism at all, and in fact only brings a historical persecution. So how would this fit into the scheme where Bhagavan Krishna becomes mere mortal and Mohammed the slayer becomes the most beloved? See, it doesn't fit at all. We can respect that to Islamics he is beloved and brings them a beautiful message. But that message surely isn't beautiful to people designated as kaffirs and polytheists. And that is not to say that someone estranged from his own faith should not ever look for God in a way he can personally accept. But it isn't going to happen that conversions among Hindus is promoted as ultimate good to save them from hellfire and damnation as worshippers of demons and fake imposter gods.

Guru Nanak's existence is not even known to many muslims if we could prove he turned the kabbah perhaps by identifying cracks in the foundation stone and doing carbon dating it would change alot- but he would be considered a pir and that is a step up from being non-existent.

It's irrelevent what Musalmans believe about Guru Nanak. they can only believe and accept from within their own paradigm. the moment guru Nanak ceases to be a Satguru and avatar of Parabrahmha Jyot, He is no longer capable of bringing the Shabda Brahman into the sansara. If he is merely a pir or a prophet, the Gurbani is only a book, and His Gurmantra is only a word incapable of liberation. So we see the obvious, for anyone to accept the credibility of this paradigm you have proposed, he becomes a Muslim! because it is not possible for him to also be either a Hindu or a Sikh and believe these things. If this is your path, however, then God bless you. And if you believe in unity of mankind and tolerance and love between peoples and cultures and want to promote harmony and peace, it is a real blessing to this world. But the moment Guru Nanak is only a prophet, Sikhi is over. The moment Krishna or Sada Shiva are only human prophets, the Hinduism is also gone. And what is left? Acceptance of the primacy and most belovedness of Mohammed as the final seal. And that by any other name is Islam.

I know Guru Nanak existed there is too much evidence to suggest that he is not just a folk legend- the Sikhs are the legacy of him and it is time to live up to that.

It's nice that you believe in Him, but if you think He was merely human than He cannot be your Satguru and you are already not a Sikh. He becomes just a historical teacher for you, whether known or unknown, if this is how he is accepted, He cannot be Guru Nanak for such persons. So it doesn't matter if He is known to them this way or not, since it is meaningless. There he is in history book is nice, but it won't have any effect on people's lives, and will only create the animosities of Sikhi being perceived as a competitor to the "only accepted religion of Islam" to Islamics. So what's the point? And that part about messing with Mecca was to show His divinity, not that He was an empowered pir, and it will never be accepted by Islamics as anything but a challenge and a heresy.

"Thing about the haddith's issues is that it may be better if Muslims do not know about them"

Whitewashing the problem doesn;'t make it go away, especially since we already have an epidemic of date rapes and coercive sexual relationships to blackmail conversions among desis who are Hindu, Sikh and Christian because fundamentalists still interpret these haddiths to justify force and sexual degradation in order to compel conversions. Since it is an epidemic problem, what good will come from turning a blind eye and denials, except to act in collusion by so doing. And why not be honest about the bloody history? there was a reason why Hindutva activists took apart Babri Masjid stone by stone. Babbar was a horrible debauched child molestor, drunkard and butcher who built his masjid over the ancient Hindu temple he destryed in invasions. So if Muslims are to understand the rancor of Hindutva activists instead of blindly rushing to fight and die to defend any Muslim mosque sitting anywhere in the world, they have to understand this history. The fact is, it was Muslims who killed 2 Sikh Gurus and the Sahibzaday and countless thousands of Sikhs under torture in order to force conversions. How can Islam have any honest relationship with Sikhi or with Hinduism for that matter, since MILLIONS were tortured, raped and killed in these invasions, and NOT be aware of what the problems are?

You see, I was promoting a "reform" of Islam and not a reform of Hinduism and Sikhism to conform to Islamic ideals. if Islam can reform the violence and intolerance of other religions within itself, then we have a platform for dialogue and can rebuke the extremists. but as it stands now, Muslims only turn a blind eye to the basis for ideology of extremism AND the criminal actions it still justifies. Because it isn't about what you or I think, or even what Sufis or Bahai's think. It's about what the respected Islamic scholars worldwide think and interpret isn't it? And right anyone sends missionaries into Islamic countries, they get put to death. And the Muslim converts get put to death. But Islam demands every right to convert in every country of the world. WHY?

Because they believe and teach that they alone are the one true religion. And that is NO WAY to have any secular society of equality when the fundamental precept is based on inequality and nonacceptance. And THAT is the issue Hindutva has with Islam.

Also you can message those people who started the Sikh-Muslim friendship page they are actually sufi muslims who take part in interfaith events and talks. I believe they would be glad to start a hindu-muslim page, not every Muslim is a wahabbi nut case there are those who want peace in the world as well.

Then honestly and properly address those issues and concerns I pointed out. Even Hindutva RSS/BJP accepts Muslims into membership provided they agree to those terms of renouncing conversion of Hindus and as Indian citizens placing India first and not loyalty to Islam or any foreign Islamic country. But I do not see anywhere in the world any Islamic organization which would accept a non-Muslim as a spiritual equal and renounce the perogative of conversion. And you see, whether or not they are personally Sufi in orientation and not Wahabis, they have an organization called Sikh-MUSLIM unity. And Islam is not defined as Sufism. And Islam does not leave any room to tolerate Sikhi, let alone Hinduism. Not only would you have to reform the haddiths. You would have to reform the Quran itself to make it so.

[HarjasDevi]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KS8oibrCLjE

"A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses)." ~Qur'an (4:24) and Qur'an (33:50)

-----------------------------

"Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.

Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers.

So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur'anic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto your save those (captives) whom your right hand possesses." ~Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11: Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah) Book 11, Number 2150

-----------------------------

"Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and

to beat them

, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing." ~Tabari IX:113

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"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.

Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

." ~Excerpt Qur'an 8:012, Set 28, Count 62

-----------------------------

"...

slay the idolaters wherever you find them...

take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush..."~Excerpt Qur'an 9:005, Set 33, Count 91

-----------------------------

"

Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth

, out of those who have been given the Book,

until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection

." ~Excerpt Qur'an 9:029, Set 38, Count 101

-----------------------------

"O Prophet! strive hard [Jihad]

against the unbelievers

and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and

their abode is hell

, and evil is the destination." ~Qur'an 9:073, Set 44, Count 108

-----------------------------

"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you.

But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity,

in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life.

But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)"

~Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 24: AL-NOOR (THE LIGHT)

-----------------------------

"Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that

99% of women go to Hell

)." ~Bukhari (2:28)

-----------------------------

"The fate of more captured farm wives, whom the Muslims distributed amongst themselves as sex slaves: "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself...

the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims.

" ~Tabari VIII:117

What does the

Religion of Peace Teach About...

Now I am not an Islamic scholar, but someone like myself reading these kinds of justifications from within Islam, and noting that Islamic scholars and accepted legitimate religious authorities as justifying the excesses committed against people of other religions have to take a jaundiced view of Islam and concern that the problems with the fanatics might actually be based on the teachings themselves and not only the fanatical interpretations. And that is why I call for a reform of Islamic religion in order for their to be a dialogue of peace and a repudiation of these kinds of excesses so often called Talibanic extremism or Wahabism, but in actuality are rooted in these kinds of scriptural teachings.

Now the reason I can be accepting of a Muslim is not based on whether or not I personally believe Islam is right or wrong, beautiful or even evil. But we have the teaching that ANYONE who worships sincerely, even if he worships wrongly, to ghosts or ancestors, that sincere worship goes to the One God so no need to judge and condemn him. On the other hand I do condemn abuses of human persons as unacceptable whether committed by Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists or whoever. But somebody's personal religion, I have no quarrel with. I also do not advocate conversions since it creates bad feelings and breaks up families. And I do think conversion to Islam from Sikhism is a disrespecting of the ancestors, but, it may be a valid path for someone who can no longer worship as a Sikh. Better for them to have some religion and praise of God than to be lost completely.

Ultimately by God's grace, that person will come closer to the truth. So there is no need to convert him or compel him to believe the way that I believe. If he is sincere and tries to be good according to what we call Dharma, he is already on his way. He may not reach the pinnacle of spirituality in this life but probably neither will I, so how can I judge his spiritual state? But we can use bibek to discern good from evil, and the only thing we have to evaluate are a person's actions. So it is not judgementalism, but reasonable and right to make determinations based on what we can perceive. And for this reason, although Islam cannot be condemned, Muslims may be avoided as missionaries or fanatics who do not respect our religion.

Hindu's and Sikhs believe that Muslims are worshiping God. Muslims may accept that Sikhs are worshiping God but they do not accept the Guru Sahibaan as Satguru's and Jyot of the Supreme God, and therefore reject Guru Granth Sahib, and therefore reject Sikhism. Muslims do not accept anything about Hinduism except those ways in which they can re-interpret Hinduism and try to fit Hindu philosophy into Abrahamic world-view that ultimately renounces Hindu teaching and converts to Islam by accepting Mohammed as final prophet. Sikhism and Hinduism have a philosophy that accepts Islam, but Islam cannot accept anything other than Islam. Again, we have no platform or basis for equality and mutual respect because of this. It isn't Sikhism or Hinduism which has to reform to meet Islam half-way, it is Islam that has to change itself and begin to promote tolerance for there to be true unity and peace. Because Jews do not convert or publicly condemn they have been well received and accepted in India for millennia. Islam has to be honest about evaluating why there have been problems worldwide.

ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā

yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ

te 'pi mām eva kaunteya

yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam

Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way.

ahaḿ hi sarva-yajñānāḿ

bhoktā ca prabhur eva ca

na tu mām abhijānanti

tattvenātaś cyavanti te

I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices. Therefore, those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down.

yānti deva-vratā devān

pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ

bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā

yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām

Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

patraḿ puṣpaḿ phalaḿ toyaḿ

yo me bhaktyā prayacchati

tad ahaḿ bhakty-upahṛtam

aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ

If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.

~Bhagavad-Gita 9.23-26

Edited December 11, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[Mr Sardar]

Have you seen this before; http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php?showtopic=11950

"LORD KRISHNA

Lord krishna was very fond of looking at naked young girls. Once upon a time Krishna, in order to get a full view of some bathing virgin girls, went to the extent of hiding their clothes on the tree top just to get a panoramic view. Does he have divine immunity from looking at naked women?

The Gita, a Holy book of the Hindus, quotes that when these bathing low caste girls begged for the return of their clothes, Lord Krishna demanded that they come out of the water with their hands raised instead of covering their bodies.

Oh my innocent Hindu brethren! Can this action be attributed to god? Is this God capable of indulging in such ungodly acts? Will Hindu mothers tolerate their son imitating god Krishna??

"

What makes an avtar is being ruihana i.e. Gurmukh where light comes out of there face such as the same as a prophet- a prophet such as the prophet muhammad is considered an avtar such as amongst Turkey there were even pictures made of him - the value of praising him is almost the same as what a devta would be we are just dealing with different languages. A devta is a being who is enlightned some come from the heavens and some humans reach that stage of bhagati be it what ever system of dharma.

The thing is most muslims stress that you can not call a prophet a God it is blasphemy while in India people even turned Gandhi into a prophet and into a God already. Even devtas and devis made faults, they are still great beings but Akal is above all. God is fundamentally nirgun Nirankar aswell as being sargun- but to understand that sargun can be the manifest within rachna (creation) itself- devta/devis/avtars and prophets were of the sargun formation- creation is the praise of kartar and kartar is within all of creation- which hinduism accepts as rom rom and sufism accepts i.e. omnipresence.

"Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light. By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all. Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth. That which is pleasing to Him is the lamp-lit worship service. ||3|| Guru Granth Sahib (Ang 13)"

Dasam granth

"ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨ ਅੰਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਇਓ ॥

ब्रहमा बिसन अंतु नही पाइओ ॥

Brahma and Vishnu Could not know His end.

ਨੇਤਿ ਨੇਤਿ ਮੁਖ ਚਾਰ ਬਤਾਇਓ ॥੫॥

नेति नेति मुख चार बताइओ ॥५॥

The four-headed god Brahma described Him ad `Neti Neti` (Not this, Not this).5.

ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਉਪਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਬਨਾਏ ॥

कोटि इंद्र उपइंद्र बनाए ॥

He hath created millions of Indras and Upindras (smaller Indras).

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਉਪਾਇ ਖਪਾਏ ॥

ब्रहमा रुद्र उपाइ खपाए ॥

He hath created and destroyed Brahmas and Rudras (Shivas).

ਲੋਕ ਚੱਤ੍ਰ ਦਸ ਖੇਲ ਰਚਾਇਓ ॥

लोक च्त्र दस खेल रचाइओ ॥

He hath created the play of fourteen worlds.

ਬਹੁਰ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਬੀਚ ਮਿਲਾਇਓ ॥੬॥

बहुर आप ही बीच मिलाइओ ॥६॥

And then Himself merges it within His Self.6."

Sri Dasam Granth ANG 35

"ਰਾਮ ਰਸੂਲ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਦਿਕ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਵਾਲਹਿ ਕੂਟੇ ॥ ਕੋਟ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਾਇ ਸਭ ਥਾਕੇ ਬਿਨ ਤਿਹ ਭਜਨ ਨ ਛੂਟੇ ॥੫॥੭੯॥

राम रसूल किशन बिशनादिक काल क्रवालहि कूटे ॥ कोट उपाइ धाइ सभ थाके बिन तिह भजन न छूटे ॥५॥७९॥

Ram, Muhammad, Krishna, Vishnu etc., All were destroyed by this sword of KAL; crores of measures, but without the devotion of One Lord, no one achieved redemption.5.79.

"

Sri Dasam Granth ANG 1289

"ਦਿਸਾ ਬਿਦਿਸਾਯੰ ਜਿਮੀ ਆਸਮਾਣੰ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਿਅੰ ਕੁਰਾਣੰ ਪੁਰਾਣੰ ॥੨੪॥

दिसा बिदिसायं जिमी आसमाणं ॥ चतुर बेद कथिअं कुराणं पुराणं ॥२४॥

Thou hast also created the directions, the indivcations, the earth and the sky. Thou hast also related the four Vedas, the Quran and the Puranas.24.....

"ਕ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਕਾਲ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਕਿਨੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥ ਘਨਿਯੋ ਪੈ ਬਿਹੈ ਹੈ ਘਨਿਯੋ ਪੈ ਬਿਹਾਨੀ ॥੨੬॥

क्रिया काल जू की किनू न पछानी ॥ घनियो पै बिहै है घनियो पै बिहानी ॥२६॥

None could comprehend the working of Death (KAL). Many have experienced it and many will experience it.26.

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

किते क्रिसन से कीट कोटै बनाए ॥ किते राम से मेटि डारे उपाए ॥

Somewhere He hath created millions of the servants like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਕੇਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਮਾਂਝ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਮੈ ਆਪਨੀ ਆਪਨੀ ਅੰਤ ਮੂਏ ॥੨੭॥

महादीन केते प्रिथी मांझ हूए ॥ समै आपनी आपनी अंत मूए ॥२७॥

Many Muhammads had been on the earth. They were born and then died in their own times. 27.

ਜਿਤੇ ਅਉਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਤੇ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤੇ ॥

जिते अउलीआ अमबीआ होइ बीते ॥ तितिओ काल जीता न ते काल जीते ॥

All the Prophets and saints of the past were conquered by Death (KAL), but none could conquer it (him).

ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਿਓ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਏ ॥੨੮॥

जिते राम से क्रिसन हुइ बिसन आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापिओ न ते काल घाए ॥२८॥

All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishan were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. 28.

ਜਿਤੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਸੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਸੇ ਹੋਤ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲਿ ਘਾਏ ॥

जिते इंद्र से चंद्र से होत आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापा न ते कालि घाए ॥

All the indras and Chandras (moons) who came into being were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him.

ਜਿਤੇ ਔਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਗੌਸ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਅੰਤ ਦਾੜਾ ਤਲੈ ਹੈਂ ॥੨੯॥

जिते औलीआ अमबीआ गौस ह्वै हैं ॥ सभै काल के अंत दाड़ा तलै हैं ॥२९॥

All those Prophets, saints and hermits, who came into being, were all ultimately crushed under the grinder tooth of KAL.29."

Sri Dasam Granth ANG 98-99

"ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਸਿ ਮਮਤਾ ਹੁਇ ਗਏ ॥ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਪਾਹਨ ਠਹਿਰਏ ॥੧੩॥

ते भी बसि ममता हुइ गए ॥ परमेसर पाहन ठहिरए ॥१३॥

They also were overpowered by `mineness` and exhibited the Lord in statues.13.

ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਏ ॥

तब हरि सिध साध ठहिराए ॥ तिन भी परम पुरखु नही पाए ॥

Then I created Siddhas and sadhs, who also could not realize the Lord.

ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਤ ਭਯੋ ਜਗਿ ਸਿਆਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੋ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਨਾ ॥੧੪॥

जे कोई होत भयो जगि सिआना ॥ तिन तिन अपनो पंथु चलाना ॥१४॥

On whomsoever wisdom dawned, he started his own path. 14.

ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਬੈਰ ਬਾਦ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਬਢਾਯੋ ॥

परम पुरख किनहूं नह पायो ॥ बैर बाद अहंकार बढायो ॥

None could realise the Supreme Lord, but instead spread strife, enmity and ego.

ਪੇਡ ਪਾਤ ਆਪਨ ਤੇ ਜਲੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਪੰਥ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਚਲੈ ॥੧੫॥

पेड पात आपन ते जलै ॥ प्रभ कै पंथ न कोऊ चलै ॥१५॥

The tree and the leaves began to burn, because of the inner fire.None followed the path of the Lord.15.

ਜਿਨਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਨਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਕੋ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਅਪਨਾ ਰਾਹੁ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥

जिनि जिनि तनिक सिध को पायो ॥ तिनि तिनि अपना राहु चलायो ॥

Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own ptah.

ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਮ ਉਚਾਰਿ ਤੇ ਭਯੋ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ॥੧੬॥

परमेसर न किनहूं पहिचाना ॥ मम उचारि ते भयो दिवाना ॥१६॥

None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad with `I-ness`.16.

ਪਰਮ ਤੱਤ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪ ਆਪ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥

परम त्त किनहूं न पछाना ॥ आप आप भीतरि उरझाना ॥

Nobody recognized the Supreme Essence, but was entangled within himself.

ਤਬ ਜੇ ਜੇ ਰਿਖਿ ਰਾਜ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਆਪਨ ਪੁਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਚਲਾਏ ॥੧੭॥

तब जे जे रिखि राज बनाए ॥ तिन आपन पुन सिम्रित चलाए ॥१७॥

All the great rishis (sages), who were then created, produced their own Smritis.17.

ਜੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥

जे सिम्रितन के भए अनुरागी ॥ तिनि तिनि क्रिआ ब्रहम की तिआगी ॥

All those who became followers of these smritis, they abandoned the path of the Lord.

ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥

जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥

Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬੇਦ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਕ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਮ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

ब्रहमा चार ही बेद बनाए ॥ सरब लोक तिह करम चलाए ॥

Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them.

ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਤੇ ਬੇਦਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥੧੯॥

जिन की लिव हरि चरनन लागी ॥ ते बेदन ते भए तिआगी ॥१९॥

Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19.

ਜਿਨ ਮਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਨ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥

जिन मति बेद कतेबन तिआगी ॥ पारब्रहम के भए अनुरागी ॥

Those who abandoned the path of the Vedas and Katebs, they became the devotees of the Lord.

ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਗੂੜ ਮਤਿ ਜੇ ਚਲਹੀ ॥ ਭਾਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਦੁਖਨ ਸੋ ਦਲਹੀ ॥੨੦॥

तिन के गूड़ मति जे चलही ॥ भाति अनेक दुखन सो दलही ॥२०॥

Whosoever follows their path, he crushes various types of sufferings.20.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਸਹਿਤ ਜਾਤਨ ਸੰਦੇਹਿ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਛੋਡਤ ਨੇਹ ॥

जे जे सहित जातन संदेहि ॥ प्रभ को संगि न छोडत नेह ॥

Those who consider the castes illusory, they do not abandon the love of the Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਹ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹੀਂ ॥੨੧॥

ते ते परम पुरी कह जाही ॥ तिन हरि सिउ अंतरु कछु नाहीं ॥२१॥

When they leave the world, they go to the abode of the Lord, and there is no difference between them and the Lord.21.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਜੀਯ ਜਾਤਨ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਤਜਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਗਿ ਪਰੈ ॥

जे जे जीय जातन ते डरै ॥ परम पुरख तजि तिन मगि परै ॥

Those who fear the castes and follow their path, abandoning the Supreme Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੋ ਪਰਹੀ ॥ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਜਗ ਮੋ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੨੨॥

ते ते नरक कुंड मो परही ॥ बार बार जग मो बपु धरही ॥२२॥

They fall into hell and transmigrate again and again.22.

ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਬਹੁਰ ਦਤ ਉਪਜਾਇਓ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅਪਨਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਓ ॥

तब हरि बहुर दत उपजाइओ ॥ तिन भी अपना पंथु चलाइओ ॥

Then I created Dutt, who also started his own path.

ਕਰ ਮੋ ਨਖ ਸਿਰ ਜਟਾਂ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੩॥

कर मो नख सिर जटां सवारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ कछु न बिचारी ॥२३॥

His followed have long nail in their hands and matted hair on their heads . They did not understand the ways of the Lord.23

ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਰਖ ਕੌ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਸਿਖ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਨਹੂੰ ਬਡ ਰਾਜਾ ॥

पुनि हरि गोरख कौ उपराजा ॥ सिख करे तिनहूं बड राजा ॥

Then I ccreated Gorakh, who made great kings his disciples.

ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਫਾਰਿ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਦੁਐ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੪॥

स्रवन फारि मुद्रा दुऐ डारी ॥ हरि की प्रीत रीति न बिचारी ॥२४॥

His disciples wear rings in their ears and do not know the love of the lord.24.

ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਕਰਾ ॥ ਭੇਸ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਕੋ ਜਿਨਿ ਧਰਾ ॥

पुनि हरि रामानंद को करा ॥ भेस बैरागी को जिनि धरा ॥

Then I created Ramanand, who adopted the path of Bairagi.

ਕੰਠੀ ਕੰਠਿ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਨ ਕਛੂ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੫॥

कंठी कंठि काठ की डारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ न कछू बिचारी ॥२५॥

Around his neck he wore necklace of wooden beads and did not comprehend the ways of the Lord.25.

ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਉਪਜਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

जे प्रभु परम पुरख उपजाए ॥ तिन तिन अपने राह चलाए ॥

All the great Purushas created by me started their own paths.

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਤਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਅਰਬ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੨੬॥

महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥

Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਏਕ ਪੰਥ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਲਿੰਗ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੀਨੇ ਸਭ ਰਾਜਾ ॥

तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥

He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥

सभ ते अपना नामु जपायो ॥ सति नामु काहूं न द्रिड़ायो ॥२७॥

He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥

सभ अपनी अपनी उरझाना ॥ पारब्रहम काहू न पछाना ॥

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਹਰਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੨੮॥

तप साधत हरि मोहि बुलायो ॥ इम कहि कै इह लोक पठायो ॥२८॥

When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28.

Sri Dasam Granth ANG 135-136- Guru Gobind Singh

also

TO God belongs the East and the West,

Wheresoever you look is the face of God.

Qur'an 2:115

Edited December 11, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[HarjasDevi]

But Lord Krishna is not going around raping non-Muslim desi girls. So we have intelligent concerns and problems that honestly need to be discussed and confronted, especially when the Muslim Romeo situation has involved several thousand young ladies and has also attracted international scrutiny.

As for your ridiculous misrepresentations of Lord Krishna, He represents the Divine Beloved God, and all the gopis represent the individual jivas, we who are His soul-brides. But if you think interpreting that as something pornographic will help your Muslim missionary cause, then knock yourself out. The Lord Himself can't be touched. And you merely cited a prejudicial opinion piece. The young women who are deceived into sham marriages, brothels, rape and impregnation in order to coerce conversions deserve at least our honesty on the subject.

I recommend you quote less abstraction and discuss the relevant issues more precisely. You could not bring yourself to discuss a single word of what I honestly brought up as concerns, yet you rushed to bash Hindu ideology as if somehow that makes Islamic position less offensive. You need logic skills class and less histrionic reactivity which tries to hide from real problems by blaming Hindu religion.

TO God belongs the East and the West,

Wheresoever you look is the face of God.

Qur'an 2:115

See this is very nice, but it doesn't address those other problematic passages now does it? And you can't swallow one without the other. Isn't this the problem?

"LORD KRISHNA

Lord krishna was very fond of looking at naked young girls. Once upon a time Krishna, in order to get a full view of some bathing virgin girls, went to the extent of hiding their clothes on the tree top just to get a panoramic view. Does he have divine immunity from looking at naked women?

The Gita, a Holy book of the Hindus, quotes that when these bathing low caste girls begged for the return of their clothes, Lord Krishna demanded that they come out of the water with their hands raised instead of covering their bodies.

Oh my innocent Hindu brethren! Can this action be attributed to god? Is this God capable of indulging in such ungodly acts? Will Hindu mothers tolerate their son imitating god Krishna??

See, that is not a scriptural quote. It is a deliberate propagandistic distortion of actual Hindu teaching in order to demonize Hindu religion. Krishna never demanded anything from "low caste girls" since He teaches the soul has no caste. And the surrender of the jivas to His irresistible charm is not sexual, it is poetically conveyed as such because there is no closer approximation to the splendor of spiritual love and merging. Krishna is called the stealer of hearts because He is representing that the primary love affair for all souls is not to anything material, not even for families, husbands, wives, but that love affair with God alone is the Supreme and most irresistible bliss.

You should know, since the Vaishnava bhaktas and Bauls gave such love poetry to Sufism. But see how deeply runs true Islamic loyalty? All talk of "equality" and "respect" and "friendship" go running out the window if you address the problems of violence and rejection of other religions or mistreatment of non-Muslims in any mature and intelligent way. Well at least your true nature is finally revealed.

Why don't quote what Guru Granth Sahib has to say about Babbur?

Edited December 11, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[laalsingh]

I know Guru Nanak existed there is too much evidence to suggest that he is not just a folk legend- the Sikhs are the legacy of him and it is time to live up to that.

It's nice that you believe in Him, but if you think He was merely human than He cannot be your Satguru and you are already not a Sikh. He becomes just a historical teacher for you, whether known or unknown, if this is how he is accepted, He cannot be Guru Nanak for such persons. So it doesn't matter if He is known to them this way or not, since it is meaningless. There he is in history book is nice, but it won't have any effect on people's lives, and will only create the animosities of Sikhi being perceived as a competitor to the "only accepted religion of Islam" to Islamics. So what's the point? And that part about messing with Mecca was to show His divinity, not that He was an empowered pir, and it will never be accepted by Islamics as anything but a challenge and a heresy.

Very good.

[Mr Sardar]

You are aware of 1984? That is thanks to Hinduvta-You can have a look at this too http://www.info-sikh.com/PageRSS1.html

Harjas you really like to argue -cool-

As for your points about these issues first of all that is not a whole religion to blame but groups and indviduals yes these are the issues coming out of haddiths and mad priests and what do we do in return we preach hatred against it. Hatered against more hatred will create mayhem - It is not like we can just go a drop a nuke on mecca and/or pakistan that will make things worse.

First of all we are all humans before we are anything else so romeo juliet stuff can happen, when it comes down to ideological community attacks then first of all we need to see what is happening- There are accounts of girls on the internet who said they find Sikh guys repulsive some are alchoholics, perciveable wife beaters, crazy nutters or plain lost the plot- I have seen keshdhari Sikhs feel negatively about check these out http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=200196139954

There is also another group called something like Sikh guys or Sardars get more love from non-Sikh girls something along the lines like that- there are loads of internet postings on this matter as well. That is one of the fueling factors for this lil-romeo situation there loads of girls who hate there dads, hate sikhism and want to run away sadly one of those cases its a failure internally more then anything. There are alot of girls who do convert that say Sikhism is evil because it promotes drinking and wearing nothing-dancing around - and being promiscuous.

Heres a quote from a Sikh girl about how a Sikh guy is;

"i befriended a sardar... never again... its possibly been one of thee most unsettling experiences of my life... this guy sent me thee most malicious text i have ever received in my entire life.. the content of the text was targeted at personnel things I had said to him in confidence...

the shameless creature continued to try and communicate with me after.. and even had the nerve to see me in person as friends.. like nothing had happened.... thats just not normal.. saying something so personal targeted at seriously hurtful experiences in my life....

yet didn't even have the decency to apologise.. its totally put me off friendships with sardars... maybe this is an isolated incidence.. but i've never had an experience like that with clean shaven guys.. its really sad that he didn't even acknowledge what he'd done and didn't feel an ounce of remorse.. yet he claims he is a nice guy.. "

As a guy from just making friends with Sikh girls I have to personally say it was disturbing and Sikh women are the worst friends I have had. Although it does not mean I am going to sterotype all of them to be like that, people can be unique- not everyone is a sheep and follows the crowd. Alot of people relate there experiences they have to previous ones I am guessing people have not had pleasant ones and neither where mine pleasant.

With those quran quotes you posted up just like Guru Granth Sahib an ancient language can be translated differently hence why it is forbidden to translate Guru Granth Sahib in the time of the Gurus to later versions of punjabi. With those quotes there are many websites which even deal with them you are looking at a certain interpretation for instance with the first one if you contextualise it- in a time of slavery it says it is lawful to marry your slave who is a women- that considers there was a low population as well as a slave being given a higher status to that of a begum- additionally many women lost there bread winners to why polygamy was allowed- there are even passages which allow alcohol but that was in a certain time.

Guru granth sahib can be accepted as well because there are many many many sufis after Prophet muhammad with many books and utterings and followers who have a tradition of singing those works in a darbar and do langar(persian word).

Edited December 11, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[Mr Sardar]

Guru Nanak is above being a mere human but he was still in human form- When asked are you hindu or muslim? He responds my name is nanak and I am a puppet made of 5 elements. Since you feel the very need to excommunicate me on a forum let me give you the definition of a Sikh and you ask your self if you are one?

Remember divinity is within every human being - with that great amount of devotion even you can attain unity with God- hence respect all Humans. If you do not see God in all you do not see god in all- please look at the Bhai Khaniya ji sakhi. Sikhs had a political issue with fascism comming from Aurangzeb-he was hated by Afghan pathans, marathis and pretty much all of his alliances and empire, Guru Nanak also blessed Babbar to have his raj- The mughal empire was also composed of Hindus- and the attack of the mughal empire was also on different sects of Islam especially sufis banning there instruments as it goes against haddiths to have music.

Fourth Mehla:

One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name. Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar. Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased. Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name. One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind. That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that GurSikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed. Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. ||2|| Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Are you a Sikh?

Those who ask a sikh's caste, they are not my sikh, they never were, and they never will be) --Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee Maharaj)...

Are you a Sikh?

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਿਖੁ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਹਾਟੈ ॥

गुर का सिखु बिकार ते हाटै ॥

Gur kā sikẖ bikār ṯe hātai.

The Sikh of the Guru abstains from evil deeds.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ANG 286

Are you a Sikh?

Edited December 11, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[laalsingh]

Guru granth sahib can be accepted as well because there are many many many sufis after Prophet muhammad with many books and utterings and followers who have a tradition of singing those works in a darbar and do langar(persian word).

What does that mean? Do you mean Guru Granth Sahib can be accepted as well, just like many books and utterings of Sufis after Mohamad?

[Mr Sardar]

If you are aware of sufi traditions and kaalams- yes it can however there would be a difference which is a Sikh must accept Guru Granth Sahib as shabad Guru where for a Sufi it would still be granted huge respect the only thing is most Muslims are not aware of the Sikh tradition and relate it to satanism as majority of us are not on gurmat. And even the descended of Mian mir still respects Guru Granth Sahib he may not be a Sikh but his love for Sikhs is better then hatred and that love can places in the future- he may not do methdheek but he still shows love which is still something.

There is a sakhi from sant singh maskeen, maskeen went to iraq met a descendent of pir dastigir when he presented him with a gutka which contained japji sahib, maskeen told this muslim that this was the kaalam of Pir Nanak- he bowed down to this and installed the gutka on a high place in the place where his ancestors had been to witness Guru Nanak;s witness. A real Sufi muslim must respect books, writtings, sayings, utterings by a sufi master such as Rumi's works are considerred as the "Persian Quran" it is given a position next to the quran and rumis work for many Iranian's (some afghans) and Turkish people exist as the sole meaning of Islam which indicate respecting other religions and some even say that even non-muslims can attain heaven hence are open to salvation- Here is a naqhsbandi sufi sheikh

perhaps naqhsbandis are not the idea example because even they played a role in Guru Arjan Dev ji's martyrdom but from the consideration they allow for a bigger realm of books and teachings- These sufis teach strongly Guru Nanak was a Muslim because he want to Mecca- however there is a post on this forum which shows how ottomon empire allowed non-muslims to enter at the time.

Edited December 11, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[HarjasDevi]

"Since you feel the very need to excommunicate me on a forum let me give you the definition of a Sikh and you ask your self if you are one?"

Okay, I laughed.  hey wait a minute now!  I protest!  I am the only excommunicated person on this forum!  LOL, stop encroaching on my space.  Am I a Sikh?  No.  I was an amritdhari and gave up my amrit vows and have taken diksha with a Hindu Guru and am now a Hindu....since you asked.

I never said anything personally against you or even about your qualities.  I find you a sincere person.  But I as many others have these honest issues and concerns with Islam which you haven't yet answered clearly.  You don't have to, but they are honest and valid concerns.  I must admit I was shocked since the way this thread started out, I thought you were a Sikh asking sincere question can a Sikh engage in Namaaz as spiritual practice, and then clarifying you felt put off and excluded from Sikh community.  I was quite shocked to read you are a very knowledgeable Muslim.

You are aware of 1984? That is thanks to Hinduvta-You can have a look at this too

You realize that 1. Hindutva is an Indian Nationalist political organization and not a religion.  The word Hindu means both native land of birth and citizen of that land and culture, Bharat bhoomi, as well as Hindu religion the ancestral religion originating from Hindustan.  Hindutva doesn't refer to Hindu religion as much as it refers to the political paradigm of being a loyal son of the Motherland as a political activist preserving own Hindu (cultural as well as religious) tattva.  Naturally a Nationalist political organization will be defensive and protective against all threats foreign and domestic. It is NOT a spiritual sangat of sants.  Often it is police and military as well as families.

And then there is the general body of religious Hindus who had no political power behind the Congress Party reactions of the Indira government.  As well, we can evaluate what mutual role the Sikh militant's armed insurrection provoked as violent response from the government.  Honestly, in any other country in the world, a militant organization with stated aims to establish secessionist state by force of arms, is not also met with same degree of genocidal force?  So, this is a political issue and has nothing to do with Hindu philosophy which is obviously written at date far earlier than the Constitution of the modern Indian state.

Yet something is missing...there are no Hindu scriptures that advocate or justify the rape and murder of non-Hindus.  So Hindu's behaving adharmically as goondhas for ANY political purpose must suffer the due karma and paap of their actions and answer to the Jamdhoots and Dharamraj.  Last I heard a Muslim in Jihad against the infidel is rewarded with heaven for his good deed.  That's the difference here.

"Those who ask a sikh's caste, they are not my sikh"

It is a sin for Vaishnava to ask about caste also.  And all persons irrespective of birth are eligible to receive brahmana initiation.  So please don't make claims about caste since it was the Vaishnav Bhaktas who initiated caste reform movement in North India, before there were Sikhs, even initiating Muslims and women as spiritual equals.

"hence respect all Humans."

Is it respect of humans to whitewash scriptural injunctions currently used by fanatics to mistreat them?  Rather than attacking the messenger, it would have been good to hear from you about support for reform of abuses and abusive interpretations from within own Islam rather than hysterical attempts to implicate Hindus while still sitting in own pile of shit.

"As for your points about these issues first of all that is not a whole religion to blame but groups and indviduals yes these are the issues coming out of haddiths and mad priests and what do we do in return we preach hatred against it." 

Instead of this ignorant and blind collusion seeking to deny and justify criminality within a community and not even exploring how to reform those passages which do in fact justify rape and terrorism. That kind of reform can only come from within the Muslim community. But it will never come so long as "Muslim advocates" continue to bluster aggressively and denounce as "prejudiced" and "hateful" anyone who brings awareness to these legitimate problems. By denying problems they are never solved. 

Do you deny these rapes and coerced conversions are occurring? 

UNLESS PRO-MUSLIM COMMUNITY ITSELF STARTS GIVING A DAMN AND PROTESTING THESE EGREGIOUS WRONGDOING IN NAME OF OWN RELIGION, THEY ARE GIVING TACIT APPROVAL OF THE CRIMES WHILE BLAMING THE VICTIMS AND THEIR RELIGIONS!

I happen to feel that a worldwide epidemic of date rapes and relationships under false pretenses to coerce Islamic conversions is worthy of being brought to the attention of the general public since the young girls and their families at least deserve advance warning, ESPECIALLY since no one in the MUSLIM community has the DIGNITY to send the warnings themselves while strongly condemning such practices which would give people some sense of respect for them.

When all these people do is justify, excuse, explain away, hide behind "interpretations" which aren't even accepted as "official" and blame and deny the problems and then attack people who protest as being anti-Muslim hate-mongers, you are GUILTY of colluding to defend criminal acts against members of another religion. Seriously stop hiding behind the "anti-Muslim" banner and do something as a Muslim to speak against these criminal and immoral activities.  I would respect you so much more.

Does no one give a damn about Dharma and protecting innocents from harm and indignity?  That should come FIRST and FOREMOST@! 

(This was a cut and paste from another forum.  I have written far too many of the same arguments to the same mentalities and missionaries over and over and I get tired, sorry.  I'm not really angry anymore.  I was when I first wrote it.  But I am saddened that these abuses are still occurring and being whitewashed and denied.  For Islam to truly flower as a beautiful religion and path of toleration and peace then do the simple thing, acknowledge the problems and share the "better" interpretations.  You simply can't ignore injunctions to rape and kill "unbelievers.")

[HarjasDevi]

"With those quran quotes you posted up just like Guru Granth Sahib an ancient language can be translated differently hence why it is forbidden to translate Guru Granth Sahib in the time of the Gurus to later versions of punjabi. With those quotes there are many websites which even deal with them you are looking at a certain interpretation for instance with the first one if you contextualise it."

But the rapes and murders are still occurring and still being justified based on these scriptural passages.  So it ISN'T a problem of interpretation as Islamic scholars and authentically recognized clergy are also advocating the extremism.  Until, say Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Sudan, Pakistan, Lybia, Egypt, etc., stops advocating legitimacy of female war booty, Sharia, coerced conversions, Jazhia and Jihad, this conversation will never end.

[Mr Sardar]

Oi I resent you calling me a Muslim- I am not a Muslim at all- I am against circumcision the sunnaon the whole-any of the sharia. I am a Sikh if you do not want to call me that because I do not live up to that then that is fine, I am not an amrithdhari however am considering it on the whole. You can label me a Hindu as an insult if you want to but first and foremost I am a human being- there are many things in Hinduism I do not agree with. Nor do I wish enemy-ship with muslim or hindus or anyother religious group for that matter. However first foremost I find respecting all religions is important regardless of any religion someone is in and I find the teaching of Guru Nanak-Guru Gobind Singh-Guru Granth Sahib the fundamentals of my practice hence why producing such a thread was my intention on seeing if there is something that in Sikhi would fundamentally reject the notion of namaz. Another issue is Sikh-Hindu relations such as consition of India sub-categorising Sikhism under hinduism even though Sikhism is separate to clergical operation in terms of 5takhts vs shankarcharyas/brahaman decree.

Additionally why do you think I am muslim? I kind of find that offensive. Is it because you think I am one of those guys who twists stuff to convert people. On the whole I personally do not really want people to convert to Islam because it in only grows the problems of potential terrorism in the world- but would be pleased to see reform in every religion for the bigger goal of world peace.

But Krishna pushes for arjun to go carry out his action due to his khsyatria dharma the whole noition of caste would still exist in that. Hindu dharam is flawed for the brahmanical system- but I do not mean to disrespect your Gurdev I still respect some hindu spirtual masters who have great spirtual stages and I humbly ask for your blessings and forgiveness in anything I have said to offend you or will say to offend you.

Look I understand that those rape cases and these things that happen annoy you, they annoy me as well so I am going to ask you, How do you stop them? Every person in the world has a right to choose a religion or belief it is there human right. Yes Islam does go against that with its appstote killing stuff on the whole it will take time before that is either thrown away ideologically, not every Muslim is evil - if they become the voice of there religion and mainstream they can choose to moderate that out later on- if not then leave it to them to convert to Christianity or Sikhism or Buddhism to find some peace. The people can make a difference- I am all for humanitariansm before anything else and pushing for utopia on the whole.

"ਸੂ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥

सू्वैया ॥

SWAYYA

ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਕਰਯੋ ਦੁਹਹੰ ਮਿਲ ਮਾਰ ਡਰੈ ਇਹ ਕੋ ਮਤ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਨੰਦਹਿ ਕੇ ਘਰਿ ਆਇ ਹੋ ਡਾਰ ਕੈ ਠਾਟ ਇਹੀ ਮਨ ਮੈ ਤਿਨ ਸਾਜਾ ॥

मंत्र बिचार करयो दुहहं मिल मार डरै इह को मत राजा ॥ नंदहि के घरि आइ हो डार कै ठाट इही मन मै तिन साजा ॥

Both of them thought that the king may not also kill this son, they decided to leave him in the house of Nand;

ਕਾਨ ਕਹਯੋ ਮਨ ਮੈ ਨ ਡਰੋ ਤੁਮ ਜਾਹੁ ਨਿਸ਼ੰਕ ਬਜਾਵਤ ਬਾਜਾ ॥ ਮਾਯਾ ਕੀ ਖੈਂਚ ਕਨਾਤ ਲਈ ਧਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਸਊਰਭ ਆਪ ਬਿਰਾਜਾ ॥੬੩॥

कान कहयो मन मै न डरो तुम जाहु निशंक बजावत बाजा ॥ माया की खैंच कनात लई धरि बालक सऊरभ आप बिराजा ॥६३॥

Krishna said, "Do not be fearful and go without any suspicion," saying this Krishna spread his deceptive show (Yoga-maya) in all the four directions and sat himself in the form of a beautiful child.63."

Sri Dasam Granth ANG 658

Yes I agree with you there clergy is flawed but they are not the only ones, majority of Hindus clergy is flawed, Sikh clergy is flawed, the chrisitian clergy has been flawed for a long time but has changed alot over the years I would say the same for the Buddhist the dalai lamai is really going for peaceful things even though previous lamas did some nasty things.

Which Vaishnav bhagat rejected caste first, I felt this is something that naturally was a direct result of Buddhism first in India.

I applaud you on your protest against these rapes (plus forceful conversion, date rape, sexual preying and assault) and any rapes and I want to ask you what do you plan on doing about it?

I do suggest you write this stuff to Islamic scholars email them try peace tv zakir naik and those lot - see there reaction let us and me know what happens if they take it on board and are willing to do a talk against it or support it or ignore it maybe then we can do something together as well as the sikhawareness people about it rather then sitting with our heads in the ground. Also these days the media is really on Muslims on the whole these stories sell maybe you can put it out and see what the media gives as feedback.

I am not a Muslim so I can not do anything from within that clergy but it seems some the things you have to say about those issues can be used constructively to do something. From within Sikhism perhaps we might able to do something rather then just being racist.

Also if you think I might have found a gap in the understanding of such religions before other people it would have only been a matter of time till those ideological gaps would have been found- So something can still be done a hukamanama from akal takht can be issued to forbid namaz to any Sikh. It is likely that some Muslims would probably come across these posts and use it to convert other Sikhs- so it is probably a good idea to if you really want to preserve separtism or maybe persue something within Sikhi gian that would forbid it from scholars maybe from damdami taksal or rarasahib or akj or sikh missionary.

The key difference between a Sikh and Sufi muslim in my opinon would be loyalty a Sikh would be loyal to Guru Nanak- Guru Gobind Singh-Sri Guru Granth Sahib where a Sufi Muslim regardless of there sufi master even if they believe in Pir Nanak as there sufi master they would need to be loyal to the Prophet Muhammad. The spirtual character would be alike; such as forgiving, merciful, loving, charitable, etc (we can even find the belief of reincarnation amongst some sufis and ismalis). As discussed earlier there are many issues with that-however there are certain haddiths which are not totally mad- the radicalisation probably came in when certain arab kings felt a decline in Islam so to go against that they probably did what they did- It is ackward to believe that Prophet Muhammad was what he is made out to be-because such a conflict is of ideas is dificult to put into perspective but is possible. This is what makes Guru Nanak unique out of all prophets and avtars he is one of the greatest to walk on this earth- we struggle to find a smudge against his character and to even mention it would make a person look like a fool. The only issue alot of the modern world has with Sikhism is the very thing sikhs stress the most for which is the bana- the 5ks not cutting hair and keeping kirpan to actually put it into good understanding - I believe that the majority of Sikhs need to learn its proper understanding regardless of if they decide to keep bana or not.

One figure in Islam who has lost the plot which someone really needs to do something about is Anjaim choudary- that guy is a trouble maker.

Edited December 11, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[HarjasDevi]

"Yes I agree with you there clergy is flawed but they are not the only ones, majority of Hindus clergy is flawed, Sikh clergy is flawed,"

Yeah, but they aren't preaching from scriptures that advocate murder and rape see?

Edited December 11, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

"Oi I resent you calling me a Muslim- I am not a Muslim at all- I am against circumcision the sunnaon the whole-any of the sharia. I am a Sikh if you do not want to call me that because"

I think it was the part where you called Guru Nanak a prophet or a pir and Mohammed as the beloved Final seal of the prophets or something like that.  Then you were fanatically defending the "interpretations" of haddiths and Quran while totally ignoring heart-rending video of violated Sikh girl and her family....and NO Sikh could ever ignore such a disgraceful thing and fail to call out for some kind of justice...and not excuses.

[Mr Sardar]

And what do you propose to do about it (the haddith issue)? What is your solution?

Nanak shah fakir, Hindu ka Guru, Musalman ka pir

Very famous saying- see- http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_in_Turkey

Guru Nanak is actually considered a Pir by muslims well known- the mughals called Sikh Gurus- Hindu ka Pir

They just translate Guru to mean pir- the whole noition of prophet comes from nabi, rasool, pacamber. A prophet is defined as someone who is predicted and reveals a book by many Muslims and according to http://www.earthportals.com/Portal_Messenger/nanak.html

he is prophecised to come. I have seen that video it was so hard to watch the first time that I did not even want to play it the second. That act of pedhophila was wrong in all circumstances it also seems like the failure of the legal system when something like that can go by. I have met Sikh guys who sleep around with muslim girls in acts of revenge and I do not think an eye for an eye is the answer. Also such a thing is addressed in sau sakhis and Guru Gobind Singh forbid khalsa going down to such levels. That does not mean all Muslims are like that- there are good people out there if you meet them not everyone has a fanatic radical agenda- I have met Muslims who openly insult scholars, there scholars and just like sikhs who insult gianis and sants, additionally there are Hindus against the brahman class who suppress untouchables and pursue random supersition about marrying a dog and avoiding days of marriage. This is a bigger problem and maybe one which could be dealt with on a legal level- At this point in time Harjas it may be best if you confront scholars on these issues you have my backing. The issue with these community tensions are even to extents that do not make sense even like muslims who sleep around and sikhs who sleep around avoid sleeping around with each other but they still do. There are some muslim girls who feel so in-caged that in an act of rebellion actually seek out Sikh guys to sleep with but on the whole none of that really makes sense, as if you are going to break your religion - do you really even still have a religion?

Edited December 12, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[HarjasDevi]

Hindu dharam is flawed for the brahmanical system- but I do not mean to disrespect your Gurdev I still respect some hindu spirtual masters who have great spirtual stages and I humbly ask for your blessings and forgiveness in anything I have said to offend you or will say to offend you.

My Gurudeva is a shudra caste, lol.

[HarjasDevi]

And what do you propose to do about it? What is your solution?

I already said the reform will have to come from within Islam when enough people cry out for decency and toleration then they can take back the control they have given to fanatical mullahs and archaic system of abusiveness.  but lastly I don't expect any change will come about by getting hysterical simply to listen to the problems and concerns and jump to another blame of something else entirely, as below.  

You are aware of 1984? That is thanks to Hinduvta-You can have a look at this too

Part of the solution will be in confronting the problem squarely and honestly...and as Sangh Parivar Vishwa Hindu Parishad has done, set up phone hotlines and support to those young girls and their families and help in exposing these problems to police.

"‘Love Jihad’, a religious conversion racket which lures gullible girls by feigning love, has brought rivals Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Christian groups in Kerala together.  The two have decided to join hands to combat the ‘‘social evil’’, which they claim is hitting their respective communities hard.

‘‘Both Hindu and Christian girls are falling prey to the design. So we are cooperating with the VHP on tackling this. We will work together to whatever extent possible,’’ K S Samson, an office-bearer of Kochi-based Christian Association for Social Action (CASA), a voluntary Christian association, told TOI.

Samson said some days ago, CASA got to know about a Hindu family in a Christian parish where a school going girl was the victim. ‘‘We immediately referred it to the VHP,’’ he said, adding the saffron outfit has helped them in many cases. The Parishad on its part has started a ‘Hindu Helpline’, which claims to have received as many as 1,500 calls in last three months." ‘Love Jihad’ racket: VHP, Christian groups find common cause

"The Sri Ram Sene, a fundamentalist Hindu group, now claims thousands of girls were forcibly converted to Islam in the past few years after marrying Muslim men. It says that after conversion the women were "trained in anti-national activities". India's main opposition party, the Bharatiya Janata Party, has said "love jihadis" have receiving foreign aid - from the Middle East - for the campaign. Senior Christian leaders are now campaigning against the alleged threat. 

"Around 4,000 girls have been subjected to religious conversion since 2005 after they fell in love," Father Johny Kochuparambil, secretary of Kerala Catholic Bishops Council's Commission for Social Harmony and Vigilance, wrote in an article in the church council's newsletter.

The article lists 2,868 girls who fell into the "love jihad" net between 2006 to 2009. Kochuparambil has not clarified where the statistics came from, citing only "highly reliable sources". India lost in 'love jihad'

[Mr Sardar]

I agree with your solution but it can not happen if Sikhs isolate themselves from interacting with Muslims like alot do- there will be trust issues and it may take many many years before that is gone. A reform is also in need in Sikhs but it does not stop there even Hindus have there issues as well- I guess you may be a great flower in the garden of Hinduism , so you can deal with that reform be it from Sikhs not feeling the respect they deserve to not teaching Sikhism in Schools across India and recognising Sikhism and its huge role in the independence movement of India- giving Sikhs the huge respect it deserves rather then degrading into to a sect of Hinduism who are stupid and backwards even though many people act like that.

The issues Islam faces are from within and outside we are apart of the outside and we need to change that, shower love and watch hatred melt. We need to interact with scholars and appeal to there humanity to bring that reform there is great hope.

Edited December 12, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[HarjasDevi]

"but it can not happen if Sikhs isolate themselves from interacting with Muslims like alot do- there will be trust issues and it may take many many years before that is gone." 

Well the truth of it is the whole world is really one big family and has totally lost sight of that fact.  Whole world needs to heal on deepest imaginable levels so we canactually work at creating a world of mutual harmony and respect with authentic love of the human being without any negation, coercion, criticism or need for any kind of conversion other than the conversion of the heart.

[Mr Sardar]

I agree with you.

So here is a question say all of that does happen- Would you see inter-religious marriages taking place? Or one religion being born out of all others or Sikhism taking over the whole world or Bahai's or Sufis or anyother pluarists for that matter. What would that mean to amrit sanchar and existence of Gurdwaras? Something like what Akbar tried or Maharaja Ranjit Singh tried.

“Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” - Buddha

Edited December 12, 2010 by sarbatdapala

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Thanks for this quote very excellent

“Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” - Buddha

[Bundha]

Funny how a quote could not be found from 1430 ang of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

[Xylitol]

Buddh dharm is different. Buddha searched intensively for truth, rejecting all accepted truths as a starting point.

In Sikh dharm, Guru Nanak sahib is sargun avtar of Waheguru himself. From the moment of his unveiling on the worldly plane (and even before), he was awake and aware. He kept a veil of maya on the minds of others, none recognised him until it was time. He played the game of seeking to teach us...but the main central truth and way in this dharm is:

"Jo to praym khaylan ka chaao, sir dhar talee galee mayree aao." (Those who wish to play the game of love (follow Sikhism), come to me with your head in your palm.) "It maarag pair dhareejai, sir deejai kaan na keejai." (If you wish your feet to travel this path, don't delay in accepting to give your head.)

There is no point in Bani of disbelieving anything in Bani.

[Mr Sardar]

It is not about disbeliving bani but disbeliving it's interpreations, one tuuk of bani can have different understandings many jathas and scholars do this- Like in this thread bani has been used to say Sikhism is the only right path and others feel Sikhi is one of the many paths, plus additional understandings from different people on this board. The translation and arth of mool mantar is different per jatha- however many tend to follow across similar lines, for people who are closed minded that is difficult to accept then- the arth of naam and guru can be so many things for so many people. So many Sikhs do not even know the difference between man and mat.

In 25 years, in 25 miles a language changes so it comes harder to have a singular punjabi amongst all sikhs hence this can change the understanding of bani from its purest form. If someone disbelieves in bani that is up to them not anyone else, God bless that person. Buddha regardless of what anything thinks is a very wise person and his words have more value then more things we can read on the internet as for his authority as a spirtual master. There maybe something in 1430 angs of gurbani but has anyone actually read it all, who has lived up to that bani and placed it into practice, who actually knows banis entire meaning? Who has no ego? Who is dead but alive? Who is the lowest of the lows? Who is truely a brahm giani? Who is the living the truth? Who kisses the feet of those who recognise God? Who truly seeks the dust of the feet of saints? Maybe they can post something along those lines rather then something that raagis repeat again and again.

Edited December 14, 2010 by sarbatdapala