Very Interesting Critique Of Sgpc Rehat Maryada By Taksaal

[Guest An old friend]

Paapiman veer Ji has the concept of pati parmeshwar all wrong. After reading that other thread, what I see are two things:

Firstly, That shabad in question is not speaking about a human female but instead about the human soul which for all is considered to be feminine in Gurbani compared to Waheguru who is the only male. The shabad is saying that all humans  as soul bride are to see Waheguru as their husband.

Secondly, pati parmeshwar concept is not a one way thing. It goes both ways. Gurbani speaks to everyone and says that all humans are to see the divine in each other and in all humans. In marriage therefore, when husband and wife both see that divine in each other, you can't have a pati parmeshwar without also having patni parmeshwari as mentioned by JasperS above. It's not mutually exclusive. Therefore if a wife is required to see God in her husband, the husband is also required to see God in his wife.

To teach this in a one sided manner that only wives are to see their husbands as God (and by extension, in the greater sphere that women are to see men as God) while the husband is supposed to see his wife as only his follower, is very wrong and dangerous thinking and makes Sikhi look patriarchal but it's not. Teaching this error doesn't just harm the image of Sikhi but it hinders the spiritual progression of half the human race (and its not the women who will be hindered by the way) because it automatically creates ego thinking of false status over others. In reality no human is above another just because of transient things like gender. So you can't teach that men don't need to also see their wives as God because they do. Gurbani is explicit that the divine light is in all humans equally.  So that shabad is being used in a twisted and wrong way to say that only (human) wives need to do this. And it's not the women that will pay the price it's the husbands that buy into it. Because you are basically saying men do not need to follow Gurbani and that will only serve to hinder their spiritual progress. 

Thanks to someone posted reference to Bhai Data Singh Ji rhetnama, in it is a quote from Guru Gobind Singh Ji:

23. Guru Gobind Singh said, “It is not the outward form or dress that is dear to me, but the moral and spiritual living of Sikh that I admire: rehit pyari moko Sikh piara nahi. ”

[Kuttabanda2]

17 hours ago, JasperS said:

Admittedly I dont know a lot about Damdami Taksal and only recently discovered they don't follow the Panthic Rehet Maryada and have their own, however the copy on their own website has that clause, that wives are to see their husband as God. It does not tell the husband to also see his wife as God instead it says he sees her as his follower. So their current version of their maryada does indeed say that and it sets a definite hierarchal view of marriage, which sounds a lot like husband worship. 
What was the original wording or context? I am interested to know.  I know that Taksal prohibit women from a lot of seva which also doesnt sit well with me. I guess it doesn't affect me because we are obviously not Taksals. We follow mainstream Panthic Rehet Maryada (Sikh Rehet Maryada) though we also frequent AKJ samagams because of their awesome simran. 

I'll take a picture of the paragraph and upload it.  It's from Gurmat Rehat Maryada (original, longer Book). 

What Taksalis do today is not what Taksalis did then. Even the Gyanis who studied under Gyani Gurbachan Singh Khalsa can't be trusted. Before the advent of the Internet and the standardization of their narratives, you could sit around 5 separate students of Gyani Gurbachan Singh down, in separate rooms, ask the same one question, and have a result of 5-6 Answers. 

DamDami Taksal was extremely anti-Padd Ched, and even more so, extremely anti-printing Bani. There used to be only Larrivar Prakash at Mehta, They had strict Baana Requirements, and followed Rehat according to Rehatnamas, the tradition that they were instilled with, etc. 

women were only barred from Panj Pyarea Di Seva because of their criteria for Panj Pyare eligibility. 

Today, That's no longer the case, of course. 

 

and i I don't know what you mean by "we".

[Kuttabanda2]

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Taliban was influenced by Wahhabism and Wahhabi activities are similar to Missionary activities in our religion.

For example, Wahhabis have destroyed historical and cultural artifacts of Islam. Similarly, during the Singh Sabha Lehar and afterwards, Sikh historical artifacts have been destroyed. If Taksalis (or any other Puratan Samprada) were in control of Sri Akal Takht Sahib jee, then this utter stupidity would not have taken place.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

That again is incorrect. I would equate the Missionaries more to Lutheran or Reformist Christians. 

The destruction of artifacts, manuscripts, and Guru Ghars was committed by the Kar Seva Wale Babe. Whom aren't really supervised. Also, destruction of artifacts didn't happen during the Singh Sabha Sudhar Lehar, it happened decades afterwards. The SGPC and Missionaries are two different entities. The SGPC evidently isn't the same as it was before. That goes for any institution or sect in the Panth. 

Taksal seems more similar to the Taliban, in the fact they punish Dushts (which from an impartial eye would seem "extremist".) and are quick to impose their views and ideology, albeit not with the same methodology as the Taliban.

 

the Puraatan Sampardas already had control, and they demonstrated what they could do with such power, which was not really Gurmat. If Taksal had control, The same stupidity would have taken place. No one's got clean hands here. 

[JasperS]

2 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

and i I don't know what you mean by "we".

I meant we as in my wife and I (and our daughter). 

[paapiman]

16 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

The destruction of artifacts, manuscripts, and Guru Ghars was committed by the Kar Seva Wale Babe. 

Not all destruction has been committed by Kar Seva. There was an incident where a historical tree was uprooted by a Gurudwara committee (which would be under SGPC), as people were bowing before it. There might be more cases too.

 

16 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

Also, destruction of artifacts didn't happen during the Singh Sabha Sudhar Lehar

Please have a look below.

http://kam1825.podbean.com/e/destruction-of-heritage-during-the-singh-sabha-movement/

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

16 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

 If Taksal had control, The same stupidity would have taken place. No one's got clean hands here. 

If the great Saints (Baba Amir Singh jee, Baba Sundar Singh jee, Baba Gurbachan Singh jee, Baba Kartar Singh jee, Baba Kirpal Singh jee, Baba Jarnail Singh jee, etc) of Taksal had been in power, they would have done a way way way better job than SGPC. No Sikh can deny this fact.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[jaikaara]

They should have proved that ahead of the SGPC  bro

[Guest no jatha]

Why is paapiman on here with an agenda to promote DDT?

I thought this forum was Sikhawareness? When I first looked on here some months ago, I thought it was a ddt ste because of paapiman's multi-spamming katha posts.

This itself is not sikhi cuz you are looking thru One-eye and shutting off everyone else.. Just like muslims.   Bani says, hindu anna, turk kaanaa.  Ddt or any jathawashed Sikhs are simply kaaana(one-eyed), cuz they see everyone outside as a worthless kafir.

btw, most of jathas translations can be poor and should always be seen with 2 eyes, not 1(paapiman)

[paapiman]

7 hours ago, jaikaara said:

They should have proved that ahead of the SGPC  bro

Their leaders have done plenty of Sikhi Prachar and were instrumental in inspiring millions to walk on the right path. If they were in power at Sri Akal Takht Sahib jee, then there would be less confusion in the Panth regarding issues such as Rehat Maryada, Sri Dasam Gurbani, etc.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Kuttabanda2]

On September 22, 2016 at 6:20 AM, paapiman said:

Not all destruction has been committed by Kar Seva. There was an incident where a historical tree was uprooted by a Gurudwara committee (which would be under SGPC), as people were bowing before it. There might be more cases too.

 

Please have a look below.

http://kam1825.podbean.com/e/destruction-of-heritage-during-the-singh-sabha-movement/

 

Bhul chuk maaf

That's interesting and quite saddening.

[Kuttabanda2]

On September 23, 2016 at 0:03 PM, paapiman said:

Their leaders have done plenty of Sikhi Prachar and were instrumental in inspiring millions to walk on the right path. If they were in power at Sri Akal Takht Sahib jee, then there would be less confusion in the Panth regarding issues such as Rehat Maryada, Sri Dasam Gurbani, etc.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Their leaders would probably force Taksal Maryada over the entire Panth. A Maryada that does not have enough research to substantiate it. 

 

[Kuttabanda2]

On September 22, 2016 at 6:23 AM, paapiman said:

If the great Saints (Baba Amir Singh jee, Baba Sundar Singh jee, Baba Gurbachan Singh jee, Baba Kartar Singh jee, Baba Kirpal Singh jee, Baba Jarnail Singh jee, etc) of Taksal had been in power, they would have done a way way way better job than SGPC. No Sikh can deny this fact.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

And will Dhumma be their successor? 

You can't be so sure of that. You're asserting that if Taksal took the Akal Takhat Sahib over they would be doing a better job, as if you consider them to be flawless angelic super humans. 

The Panth will end up in the same mess it's in now. 

The Rehat Maryada laid down by the SGPC is the basic framework for the entire Panth's various Rehat Maryadas. 

No Sikh should make such an assertion and call it a fact. 

 

 

[paapiman]

15 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

And will Dhumma be their successor? 

Vidya Martand Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Mohan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale. The best scholar of the Panth.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

15 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

The Rehat Maryada laid down by the SGPC is the basic framework for the entire Panth's various Rehat Maryadas. 

The so-called SGPC Rehat Maryada has major flaws in it (Gurparsaad, will make a new topic on this issue). It is much much safer for a Sikh to follow Taksal Maryada or any other Maryada of a Samprada (which traces it roots to Sri Satguru jee).

 

Bhul chuk maaf 

[paapiman]

15 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

You can't be so sure of that. You're asserting that if Taksal took the Akal Takhat Sahib over they would be doing a better job, as if you consider them to be flawless angelic super humans. 

The individuals mentioned by Daas were angelic super humans and would have done a great job for the Panth. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

16 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

Their leaders would probably force Taksal Maryada over the entire Panth. A Maryada that does not have enough research to substantiate it. 

This so-called Sikh Rehat Maryada has been forced upon the Panth as those people were in power at that time.

Can you please list the flaws in the current version of DDT maryada?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

16 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

The Rehat Maryada laid down by the SGPC is the basic framework for the entire Panth's various Rehat Maryadas. 

Bro, having a basic framework is an excellent idea as long as the framework is based on Gurmat principles, not on Manmat of some scholars.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[JasperS]

On 9/26/2016 at 3:23 PM, Kuttabanda2 said:

Their leaders would probably force Taksal Maryada over the entire Panth. A Maryada that does not have enough research to substantiate it. 

 

That would be horrible as many things in their maryada disagree with the panthic maryada. As I said before, this sexist line is in their Maryada:

Taken directly from their own website.  Since all humans are to see God in each other, the above makes no sense and is very sexist. I know you said before that it was not always in there, but the fact is, it is in there now. And I know many Singhs would love the idea to have a subordinate wife. But not me and I don't believe this agrees with gurmat principles. If their maryada was forced on the whole panth, women would have a very low position in Sikhi indeed. 

There are also other disagreements like meat (not prohibited outright, but only ritualistic killing as in the Muslim way is prohibited) and gurbani even says "who is to say what is meat and what is green vegetables, and what leads to sin?", jewelry makeup etc are prohibited in Taksal maryada, while its only piercing in panthic maryada for reason of the history of piercing being associated with slavery but rest is ok. They also limit most seva to men, and treat women as being impure during menses which again is against gurmat principles. Even Taksals own Sant, Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale is quoted as saying that Taksal Maryada is only for Taksals and not everyone else.

[tva prasad]

it just the outside (the physical body) that I different for reproduction reasons but everyone is the same on the inside (everyone has god in them). There is no discrimination in sikhism.

[JasperS]

6 hours ago, tva prasad said:

it just the outside (the physical body) that I different for reproduction reasons but everyone is the same on the inside (everyone has god in them). There is no discrimination in sikhism.

tva prasad ji, have a look around this site for some very eye opening comments by certain members which will give you a hugely different perspective on that. 

[jaikaara]

6 hours ago, tva prasad said:

it just the outside (the physical body) that I different for reproduction reasons but everyone is the same on the inside (everyone has god in them). There is no discrimination in sikhism.

when this concept of seeing the husband as Parmeswar was mentioned , it was due to the women being the weakest in the society and mostly were uneducated . The basic classification was either a woman was a obedient housewife or someone with vices and the issues faced would be that such women would be the reason of conflict amongst the family members.

I dont know how far you ever connected to the countryside of any region in India. The farmer classes who choose brides , have you ever heard the mothers of the would -be bridegrooms ? the virtues they look in the would be daughter - in - law ? They need someone hardworking and obedient , always on their toes to serve the family members.

 

In reference to the maryada , it could be that the men would be either away due to war or for other work . It could be that women might fall prey to other men around. Considering their husbands as God - like infuses respect and the feeling to be belonging to that particular person. This is a 'indology' concept , very much evident in India . Most customs might have scientific reasons however it was easier to infuse Dharam with it and explain it .

To understand this , you would have to interact with people who still believe so . Understand one thing that not everything falls in the brackets of Logic. This is also very much evident in the terms of people explaining reasons to keep 'Kes' . This tradition is not new and has been followed all over the world however it cannot be explained in 'logical' terms. Every point will be countered with another logical reason.

[Guest Guest]

9 minutes ago, jaikaara said:

when this concept of seeing the husband as Parmeswar was mentioned , it was due to the women being the weakest in the society and mostly were uneducated . The basic classification was either a woman was a obedient housewife or someone with vices and the issues faced would be that such women would be the reason of conflict amongst the family members.

I dont know how far you ever connected to the countryside of any region in India. The farmer classes who choose brides , have you ever heard the mothers of the would -be bridegrooms ? the virtues they look in the would be daughter - in - law ? They need someone hardworking and obedient , always on their toes to serve the family members.

 

In reference to the maryada , it could be that the men would be either away due to war or for other work . It could be that women might fall prey to other men around. Considering their husbands as God - like infuses respect and the feeling to be belonging to that particular person. This is a 'indology' concept , very much evident in India . Most customs might have scientific reasons however it was easier to infuse Dharam with it and explain it .

To understand this , you would have to interact with people who still believe so . Understand one thing that not everything falls in the brackets of Logic. This is also very much evident in the terms of people explaining reasons to keep 'Kes' . This tradition is not new and has been followed all over the world however it cannot be explained in 'logical' terms. Every point will be countered with another logical reason.

You don't find it to be an injustice toward women to see them as the ones who have to be obedient and serve while the husband is served and obeyed? It certainly makes the preferable position the male one doesn't it? But ask yourself does God create preferable positions? This human life has been given as Gurbani tells us. Not this male human life meaning both are equally given the same opportunity. Then how can one be in a position so limited compared to the other? 

its an injustice toward those souls who are in female bodies which are the same as souls in male bodies. Pati parmeshwar idea is against gurbani teaching that all humans are equal. Equality includes equal opportunity and worth. Suppressing one in a lower position beneath the other makes the statement of inequality and hierarchy. Sikhi has no hierarchy. 

And what about patni parmeshwari? Both should see God in each other. That's what gurbani teaches. 

[jaikaara]

3 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

You don't find it to be an injustice toward women to see them as the ones who have to be obedient and serve while the husband is served and obeyed? It certainly makes the preferable position the male one doesn't it? But ask yourself does God create preferable positions? This human life has been given as Gurbani tells us. Not this male human life meaning both are equally given the same opportunity. Then how can one be in a position so limited compared to the other? 

its an injustice toward those souls who are in female bodies which are the same as souls in male bodies. Pati parmeshwar idea is against gurbani teaching that all humans are equal. Equality includes equal opportunity and worth. Suppressing one in a lower position beneath the other makes the statement of inequality and hierarchy. Sikhi has no hierarchy. 

And what about patni parmeshwari? Both should see God in each other. That's what gurbani teaches. 

so now what ? u know your questions and you know your answers ...then why u need to ask people and then counter them ? when you know what Gurbani teaches be happy with that. God Bless ..Akaaal !

[tva prasad]

According to guru ji woman are not weak. If guru ji thought that women r weak do u think they would let them fight in battles with men? Why would they let women take amrit? Why would they let women play gatka, carry the sword, etc.? Guru g has no discrimination against anyone, as his Sikhs neither should we. How is it fair to treat one better than the other if all contain the divine light of god himself? Those who practice discrimination will have to suffer. Those who brought discrimination into sikhi will have to suffer. That is the divine law of karma.

pati parmeshwar equals faithfull singhni

what sort of qualities should pati parmeshwar have and what sort should a faithfull singhni have? Good, right?

good equals good. So it is balanced. The main thing is the respect each other. That I my opinion and I m not saying it is a fact or anything.

1 thing I hate is discrimination. Discrimination against anything animals, gender, age, etc. I just hate it. It is not human to discriminate other wether it be animal or human.

[tva prasad]

18 hours ago, JasperS said:

 

 

as it say in the above line that they look up to eachother, so there is some equality.