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dalsingh101

The History Of The Devil

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Gives a rationalist, reductionalist account of the devil as perceived in Abrahamic and later western society.

http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=683344

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Satan is nobody but Maya. But it works under the Hukm. Maya is no sharique to Him, there is no sharique to Him. As video says Satan (or Maya) got no power of his/her own. It is all His play.

Don't waste you time on Abrahamic stuff. I wasted my 10 minutes. Read what Guru says.

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Satan is nobody but Maya. But it works under the Hukm. Maya is no sharique to Him, there is no sharique to Him. As video says Satan (or Maya) got no power of his/her own. It is all His play.

Don't waste you time on Abrahamic stuff. I wasted my 10 minutes. Read what Guru says.

I don't believe in the existence of satan myself but it's still interesting to learn about other religions/ points of views. Growing up in England the notion of a devil and associated demons scared the bejesus out of me as a child (horror films probably played a part in that too!)

I still find that stuff fascinating and like you allude to, I think semitic faiths explain vikaars, paap etc. as the influence of this malevolent external entity. We on the other hand believe that these things are the result of a failure to subdue forces placed within us by God. Growing up around it, I do sometimes find Christian mythology quite fascinating but don't mistake that as me literally believing in it!

What do you mean by sharique?

Edited by dalsingh101

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An interesting book on the subject for those interested

Satans tragedy and redemption Iblis in sufi psychology

Peter J Awn

http://www.amazon.com/Satans-Tragedy-Redemption-Iblis-Psychology/dp/9004069062

Remember Iblis/Shaitan was one of Bhagwans biggest Bhagats he done Bhagti of Khuda for 10,000 years and then for one mistake he was sent out of His presence out of Jannat... One party speculates that Shaitan is expelled forever from the presence of God others say he has become wiser by his expulsion from Jannat and will return back to do bhagti of Khuda with even more honour - As God is most forgiving.

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I don't believe in the existence of satan myself but it's still interesting to learn about other religions/ points of views. Growing up in England the notion of a devil and associated demons scared the bejesus out of me as a child (horror films probably played a part in that too!)

I still find that stuff fascinating and like you allude to, I think semitic faiths explain vikaars, paap etc. as the influence of this malevolent external entity. We on the other hand believe that these things are the result of a failure to subdue forces placed within us by God. Growing up around it, I do sometimes find Christian mythology quite fascinating but don't mistake that as me literally believing in it!

What do you mean by sharique?

This word is usually used in Punjab for somebody who shares power. Sometimes brothers and cousins are called Shariqs in negative way.

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Devil/Satan as described in many religions is the power of God whose task is to create and sustain the material world. It's another name is Kaal which is with every human being in the form of Mind. In one sense the Devil/Satan/Kaal is the Evil force but at the other hand it is doing its work as given by God. There are many references in Guru Granth Sahib Ji regarding the Kaal/Time/Mind.

Edited by das

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Devil is none other than the Panj Chor Kaam-Krodh-Lobh-Moh-Ahankaar

And Panj Chor Kaam-Krodh-Lobh-Moh-Ahankaar are the various Negative Emotions of Mind (Kaal). In other words, these Panj Chores are the 5 Faults/Vikars of Mind/Kaal. Bottom line is: Devil is the Time/Kaal when we forget Waheguru.

Edited by das

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Devil is none other than the Panj Chor Kaam-Krodh-Lobh-Moh-Ahankaar

I think so too.

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And Panj Chor Kaam-Krodh-Lobh-Moh-Ahankaar are the various Negative Emotions of Mind (Kaal). In other words, these Panj Chores are the 5 Faults/Vikars of Mind/Kaal. Bottom line is: Devil is the Time/Kaal when we forget Waheguru.

What is Kaal? in Akal Ustat, Guru Jee calls Vaheguru as Kaal when He says: Sarab Kaal Ji Di Rachia Hamnai

Edited by Jonny101

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Kaal is the Time OR Death OR The creator of the cycle of karma OR The creator of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiv ji OR the creator of Vedas.

In Akal Ustat, Guru Ji has mentioned "Sarb Kaal" or "Maha Kaal" which means The creator of Kaal/Time/Death. In other words, the True creator is the Sarb-Kaal who even created the Kaal/Time. That's why it is said that: "EK Onkar".

I would suggest you to read: "Bijak Of Kabir". "Anurag Sagar"

Edited by das

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In Akal Ustat, Guru Ji has mentioned "Sarb Kaal" or "Maha Kaal" which means The creator of Kaal/Time/Death. In other words, the True creator is the Sarb-Kaal who even created the Kaal/Time. That's why it is said that: "EK Onkar".

I think it also alludes to the finality of Waheguru's power i.e. ultimately God has the power to destroy all (or end the time of all) as well. All creation is subject to this including time and death.

BTW - Sarb Kaal literally means 'All-time' or 'All-death' and Maha Kaal means 'Great time' or Great death'.

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exactly dalsingh101, it is ultimately the Waheguru/God who is the creator and destroyer of everything (including Devil etc.).

So, we can close the topic with:

Yes, there exists some power whose work is to bound the Jeevs to lower planes; we can choose to call it Devil/Evil/Kaal/Time/Mind etc. But it is not evil-evil, as it also helps us to reach Waheguru if we choose to use it properly (our Mind) and this devil is also the product of Waheguru.

What I've learnt in these years is that: None of the religion is speaking false; it's just a matter of understanding the point from different angle and therefore we should not indulge in saying that the other religion and/or person is saying false. It is also possible that we both are right as well as wrong.

Unless we're Brahmgyani, any Scripture/text we read will be perceived differently (by every man) than it really is, and differently than it was intended to be perceived.

Edited by das

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^^^

The nuanced but immensely important distinction between the Sikh (and even wider Indic) conceptualisation of our human failings being a product of poor self-control as opposed to the Semitic conceptualisation of an errant, external force compelling our behaviour/decisions isn't a small thing.

In the latter people excuse their actions by blaming the devil; whereas our system places responsibility largely upon our own heads (or muns).

This is too big a difference to gloss over by saying that all faiths largely teach the same thing in different guises - like it appears you have done above?

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Kaal is the Time OR Death OR The creator of the cycle of karma OR The creator of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiv ji OR the creator of Vedas.

In Akal Ustat, Guru Ji has mentioned "Sarb Kaal" or "Maha Kaal" which means The creator of Kaal/Time/Death. In other words, the True creator is the Sarb-Kaal who even created the Kaal/Time. That's why it is said that: "EK Onkar".

I would suggest you to read: "Bijak Of Kabir".

So what is Kaal according to Bijak of Kabir? You said in one of your posts it is Mind? I have Radhasoami relatives and according to them Kaal is a negative alternative power to God which makes humans do bad things like how Abrahamic religions view Devil/Satan/Iblis. Is that how Bijak of Kabir also views this?

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^^^

The nuanced but immensely important distinction between the Sikh (and even wider Indic) conceptualisation of our human failings being a product of poor self-control as opposed to the Semitic conceptualisation of an errant, external force compelling our behaviour/decisions isn't a small thing.

In the latter people excuse their actions by blaming the devil; whereas our system places responsibility largely upon our own heads (or muns).

This is too big a difference to gloss over by saying that all faiths largely teach the same thing in different guises - like it appears you have done above?

It's again an example of what we read will be perceived differently (by every man) than it really is, and differently than it was intended to be perceived.

My thinking is: We CAN OR CANNOT blame the devil (kaal) for our sufferings because of the following:

We canNOT blame Kaal/Devil because 'True God' came to Earth and gave HIS teaching using which we can go back to our Source. From HIS teachings, we know that "We have to endure everything [Raab da bana mitha manna] and utilize our free-will towards HIM".

At the same time, we also choose to blame the Kaal for all of our sufferings because: Normally we say that we suffer because of our own karmas, but keep in mind the karmas are the product/creation of Kaal and NOT by "The Ek Onkar". Secondly, if karmas and free-will are the base of all of our problems, then it means that there was a time when we had zero karma and the free-will of God. In that case, who choose the bad deed which results in chain of bad deeds? It is known that Kaal released the souls in causal, astral and material world WITH the initial bad karma and that is the main cause. Even Guru Nanak Dev Ji said: "Tein ki dard na aaya....".

Based upon the above, I can said that it is foolish to always blame Devil/Kaal for our problems. It's like blaming circumstances or people if we fell in a well knowing that a rope is also hanging; blaming others won't help because it is the WITH the help of Rope (Guru) that we can come out of the well.

So what is Kaal according to Bijak of Kabir? You said in one of your posts it is Mind? I have Radhasoami relatives and according to them Kaal is a negative alternative power to God which makes humans do bad things like how Abrahamic religions view Devil/Satan/Iblis. Is that how Bijak of Kabir also views this?

Let me correct you, Kaal is NOT the alternate power to God. Kaal is the negative power but still under the control of Waheguru/God. It's like God is at the top (Owner) and Kaal is the "Board of Director" with his Ceo, President etc. (as the means) to manage this universe. During all this, True God is present everywhere because it is the power/force using which everything (including Kaal) is working. I don't understand the problem when lot many people have problem accepting the existence of negative force (which is still under God); when we can accept the existence of Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva but why can't accept the creator of these deities.

Edited by das

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Normally we say that we suffer because of our own karmas, but keep in mind the karmas are the product/creation of Kaal and NOT by "The Ek Onkar".

This is bringing in a duality to Sikhi that I don't think exists?

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I don't understand the problem when lot many people have problem accepting the existence of negative force (which is still under God); when we can accept the existence of Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva but why can't accept the creator of these deities.

I think the problem is not acceptance but difference of interpretation. What some traditions view as an entity that makes you do bad things traditionally the Dharma religions associated with coming under the influence of Kaam-Krodh-Lobh-Moh-Hankaar emotions. Or maybe Kaal/Shaytaan/Iblis entity does exist since God's creation is huge and there are many seen/unseen forces behind the curtain of illusion performing their duties.

It's interesting to see the differences in Bijak of Kabir and Kabir Bani in Guru Granth Sahib Jee. The Bijak mentions a negative entity called Kaal while Bani of Kabir in the Sikh tradition does not. I wonder what other differences are there. It would be nice to see a comparative study done on the two works of Kabir.

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My understanding is that KAAL is limited here as he/it/the force is 'time' bound.

AKAAL is the ek onkaar.

We are in a realm of dualities. But the problem is that a lot of us can't completely grasp what dualities are.

The sant mat/ radhsoami explanation of negative or opposing force is pretty good, but it is still confined to this realm.

Maybe an easier way of trying to understand dualities is to think of everything as having opposites.

(opposites like good-bad, right-wrong, dukh-sukh, birth-death, big-small, rich-poor, wet/water-dry/land...etc....).. it's ALL opposites in our existence

Kaal isn't the opposite of God, but kaal is still his creation, that does a very good job in making US move in the opposing direction of God Consciousness.

Kaal's influence is towards the opposites of all the negativites of dualities.

Detaching from maya and naam simran can take you out of the confines of Kaal's limitations.

In fact, Kaal cannot have any affect on individual conscious/soul development/learning.

That's why a sikh-learner is to learn/develop and then Realise the Lord God. This is when sikh becomes gurmukh.

Bani tells us repeatedly that Gurmukh is untouchable by any negatives or kaal.

Sikhs we are, Learn we must, develop we should, and climb that ladder of spirituality of which the rungs are completely away from Kaal's reach. It is this ladder where satguru put his hand down to us to help lift us.

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Yes, there exists some power whose work is to bound the Jeevs to lower planes; we can choose to call it Devil/Evil/Kaal/Time/Mind etc. But it is not evil-evil, as it also helps us to reach Waheguru if we choose to use it properly (our Mind) and this devil is also the product of Waheguru.

What I've learnt in these years is that: None of the religion is speaking false; it's just a matter of understanding the point from different angle and therefore we should not indulge in saying that the other religion and/or person is saying false. It is also possible that we both are right as well as wrong.

Unless we're Brahmgyani, any Scripture/text we read will be perceived differently (by every man) than it really is, and differently than it was intended to be perceived.

I have to agree here.

Yes, I also firmly believe that a lot of the bible is actually in line with what we follow as per gurmat. It's just the ways that it has been interpreted and mistranslated over the years, especially when it comes to the metaphors used.

I shall give a little brief and idea of what I have learned throughout my life and how I discovered the overlaps once i started learning deep sikhi later on in life.

For me, my first introduction to God or religion was all about the bible, since i was born and raised in old school 'white man' UK at school. Those days, singing hymns, bible prayers, bible study..etc.. was mandatory in most british schools, we even had to carry our own little red mini bibles in our blazer pockets at all times, unless you wanted detention!

It wasn't so bad, but those generations (60's,70's) just quietly got on humbly with whatever needed to be done. Well, could say after all the queen is the 'Head of the Church of England' !, and my grandparents chose to come there and we had to try and fit in as the extreme minorities we were.

With the metaphoric/mystic meanings of the bible, I can briefly say that-

For eg. there was no real Adam and Eve, but it talks about Adam being made in the image of God himself.

This is the image of his formless consciousness. Then further it mentions that God clothed Adam with some skin, which gets interpreted as God gave clothes of animal skin to cover Adam.....This is actually about God giving a layer of skin to this very consciousness or soul that is itself a small fragment of God's image himself.

Then we have duality of Eve or wo-man coming from Adam's chest. This is the duality/opposite of the same image of man being created...

Also, we have the serpent and eating the forbidden fruit from a tree.

In my personal opinion, this is also a Very strong metaphor because the Tree references are to a "Tree of knowledge'' that provides all the gyan to realise God and then there is the ''Tree of the Mind'', which of course is the tree that we get TEMPTED to eat from,the tree with Kaal's influence, the 5 dhuts, the worldly maya.

(tree of knowledge is popular in quite a few other faiths like kaballah, jews...)

It's also no surprise that I believe the Serpent itself is a metaphor for MAYA.

EVEN in gurbani, there are numerous mentions of Maya the serpent. This Maya wraps and coils it's body around you, just like a snake does. And when one tries to fight and free themselves from the snake... what happens ???

.... The snake just continues to grip even more tighter, virtually making the stranglehold very difficult to escape from.

MAYA does exactly the same thing in wrapping around you and making you dance around !!

Jesus references to ''wine'' is actually amrit rus, but you have to look at the context of the specific bible quote to understand it.

I remember at school, i was always confused since we were taught about not abusing your body and Jesus quotes ''that the body IS your temple and within is the doorway and entrance", so the RE teachers would hammer in that liquor,drugs, substances should not be used to abuse the body. But as an 8 yr old, I could never understand why all the talk about wine ???

When I read into some of them some time ago, I concluded that it was amrit rus/ divine nectar from within.

Jesus mentions the temple, which is 'Ghar' within.

Resurrection is about resurrecting the soul and going back to your mool.- it's not about forming some earthly church.

Jesus calming the turbulent sea(story) is about what we call the bhavsagar within, and how to keep it calm to cross it.

Jesus washed his 12 disciples feet and he went to John the baptist to get baptised !

John's quotes about 'The word' are what we call 'The shabad'

........

There are many more and even in the old testament,,

the classic Noah's Ark is not about some world flood, but it's about meditation like Guru Nanak ji prescribes to wash the MIND at amrit vela.

In greek mythology, there is also 5 levels of consciousness, that we can raise our vibrations through by meditation.

these are of course,,the same 5 elements in gurbani and exactly what is described in sukhmani sahib

1-Earth

Dharti Tat (earth element): As we need light to go through darkness; so we need light of Gur Sabad to see our way through the darkness of this earth element within. Gurbani says:

JIH PAINDAI MAHAA ANDH GUBAARA ||

HAR KA NAAM SANG UJEEAARAA ||

Gaoree Sukhmani Mahalaa –5 (ang 264)

2-Water- which was always symbol of truth and why it is used in all different faith baptisms.

t: As a boat is needed to cross a river; so, is the Gurshabad needed to ferry mind across the water element within this body. Gurbani says:

JIO PAAKHAAN NAAV CHARH TARAI

PRAANEE GUR CHARAN LAGAT NISTARAI

3-Air- by controlling and rising above your own pavan/breathing you are able to separate from thoughts.(also the balance through central sushmana)

Guru Ji tells us how to concentrate the mind and transcend this element. The atmospheric air sometimes flows gentle and is at other times fast and stormy. The Paon Tat (the air element) within the body behaves the same way. Its flow rises and ebbs. The unsteady behavior of air disturbs our mental equilibrium. We need Gur Sabad to steady and focus our mind in the vortex of wind within. Gurbani elaborates:

JIO MANDIR KO THAAMAI THAMAN ||

TIO GUR KAA SABAD MANAH ASTHAMAN ||

4-Fire- a higher realm of spirit.The purer warming affect of the sun heat/ sustaining the whole world.

To protect ourselves from the atmospheric heat, we seek shelter in the shade. We do have the element of fire within the body. Gurshabad provides shady shelter to our mind and protects it from the heat of the fire within. Gurbani says:

JAH MAHAA BHA-I-AAN TAPTE BAHU GHAAM ||

TAH HAR KE NAAM KEE TUM OOPAR CHHAAM ||

5-AKASH- greeks also called this the void space or the renewed mind where the shabad manifests in purest form, after hearing all the above type sounds.

The Noah story is about the stage of water purifying and crossing over the stormy bhavsagar.

The EARTH(1st stage) is taken into the water to be able to see it in purer form.- the begining of need for GURU to take you from dark to light.

In Noah's story this is the flood, where the earth conscious gets submerged in water (2nd stage)

NOTE- that water is also representing the Truth or Sat, and bathing/submerging in this is the ultimate cleanse.

Then in the 2nd level of meditation, the consciousness rises towards the Air(3rd stage).

In Noah's story, the ark rises to the mountain top in the flood, where the air can be breathed !

Once up in the air by mountain top, the ark is touched and dried/purified by the fire (4th stage)

What results in the end is the ark being in the newly renewed mind space/void, where nothing except the primordial shabad is present.

The 7 people on the ark represent the 7 chakras.

This ARK is actually all in the mind.

If you read the story now, you will see it in a completely different light that will make much more sense with gurmat.

So now, we are all wondering what the hell were the 2 of each animals about ??

ANS- All about Duality.

We live in the world of opposites and it is part of our human psyche that we have this own battle within of the dualities.

The right from wrong, the positive and negative, the can and can't do, the love and hate....................etc

We have this continuous battle of dualities within because our 'Animal Instincts' tempt us to follow the negatives and wrongs, the cravings, the lusts, the thoughts, the desires.....etc.

We can't escape from them, but we have to take them with us in the Ark.

Thus, when the Mind Ark rises to the mountain top and we have cleansed and renewed within, the lower animal instincts are still present BUT we have risen to the mountain top and are now ABOVE them.

As in Gurbani, we have to be the lotus that floats above on top of the world ocean, yet still be in the proximity of the 5 dhuts and maya below !

Take the 2 by 2 animals is the instruction to NOT become recluses like siddha/old yogis and renounce from the maya world. The story is saying that you just need to RISE ABOVE THEM and have to take these animal instincts of opposing natures within you on your internal journey to rise above the mountains.

With reference to the Devil issue of the OP.

I think it's been pretty much answered.

The Devil is a creation of GOD just like Kaal.

It only has power where there are dualities, therefore rise above and meditate and you shall be free from those devil dhuts.

Edited by Lucky

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Again excellent explanation of some metaphors of Bible. Let me add the following:

The sign and symbol of the ancient physician was the Caduceus and this is not just some symbol of healing. It is the cryptic design that does represent the energy patterns of HIS work in the man. Now if we understand the micro then we can easily understand HIS macro.

  • The wings of the Caduceus represent the two hemispheres of the brain.
  • The knob in the center is the pineal body.
  • The upright center staff is the path of the finer energy which produced the center portion of the brain, noted by the rings and the spinal cord below it. The staff in the center portrays the hearth fire and the chimney, down which 'Santa Claus' descends and through which he returns to the Fountain of Energy above, after having distributed or deposited the gifts from the Source. Those who can understand this will realize that it is the secret of the stepped-down Sound Current of Spiritual Energy also known as "THE WORD" from higher regions, lost in matter and physical generation. These days’ translations have reduced Santa Claus to the status of some old man giving gifts to kids and that leads people to say there is no Santa Claus (which is right as well as wrong).
  • The two serpents represent the Mind Principle in its dual aspect. The fiery breath of the Sun/Pingala/Yang is the positive pole as the vital energy on the right side of the body. On the left side of the body flows the cooling energy of the Moon/Ida/Yin essence of Nature. These two currents cross over in each oval cavity of the body and change their polarity. Thus they flow in and out of each other constantly and produce alternating currents in their action. The area where these currents cross each other are called Chakras.
  • The last open loop and that lower part of the staff is the Cauda Equina, the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil'. It is situated at the end of the spinal cord proper, below the second lumbar vertebra.

Basically, there are three types of tree mentioned in Bible which relate to the central nervous system and the autonomic nervous systems. They function as the three qualities of mind and fine material energy in the body:

  • Tree of Life: As the central nervous system is the intelligent or Sattvic impulse created as the first creation (Causal plane), the Source and Centre of things, the super-conscious state of mind patterns. It is the Positive pole in brain Cerebrospinal as the intelligent pulse.
  • Tree of Food and Nourishment: As the parasympathetic nervous system is the emotional, restless active preservative impulse – Rajas, created in the second creation (Astral plane). Rajas, good for food and nourishment, is the field of general action and service. It is the activity of the conscious mind. It is the emotional, restless, active, preservative impulse.
  • Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil: As the sympathetic nervous system, Tamas or the earth-bound mind, the blind expression of the force of crystallization, the generative, driving power. This concerns the vital forces in the body, in the pelvis. It is the un-intelligent pole of impulse on the other end of the nervous system and spinal column.

If someone is interested in really good translation of Bible, then I would refer this book “The Mystic Bible by Dr. Randolph Stone”: http://www.amazon.com/The-mystic-Bible-Randolph-Stone/dp/B0007ATOY6

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