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dalsingh101

The History Of The Devil

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Yes, good book that one, but i haven't actually read all of it.

(I very rarely read any books cover to cover, but I just try and find what i'm looking for usually)

There is much more material out there about the hidden mystic and esoteric layers of the bible.

The above you noted about the brain hemispheres is something I only picked up recently.

It was when Sat and myself were trying to confirm and find out about why the anhad sound current should be on the right side.

I realized that the bible mentions this a hell of a lot, but the message doesn't get recognized.

The Left is referred to the West as well, which means more worldly/desires/self gain..etc.. whereas the RIGHT is also mentioned as EAST is about the side associated with Spirituality and God conscious.

Interestingly, I can't remember which one's, there are some famous paintings by da vinci or raphael..et.al that show things like divine dove whispering in the right ear or madonna listening and speaking to baby in right ear

There is also a famous Jesus parable about goats and sheep getting separated on a field and the sheep on the right lend up in heaven whereas the goats on the left don't. The metaphor is that the farmers instructions were the same to both sheep and goats and it points that the ONE's LISTENING on the Right, will embrace the divine !

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It's also interesting to note that:

  • The Whirling Dervish (started by Rumi) rotates with Right-Hand towards the Sky to receive God's good forces and then Left-Hand towards the earth distributing the God's blessing to everyone. They rotate in counter-clockwise direction (Right to Left) because all nature moves in counter-clockwise direction. I'm still trying to understand where one needs to gaze: towards Right or Left hand. I'm looking for authentic sources and not just search from google. if you happen to know please share.
  • Everything in this creation is spinning counter-clockwise, from our atoms and the electrons that spin around the nucleus to the earth which spins around itself and moves counter-clockwise around the sun. Traditionally races and merry-go rounds were run in counter-clockwise direction. It has been noticed that Clockwise running tires people, especially children easily. It is known that moving in counter-clockwise direction would speed-up one’s chakras.
  • There are number of things in many cultures which would instruct to do certain things with Right vs Left hand. E.g It is said to receive the donation/gift by Right hand and give the donation by Left hand. It is because Right hand is receiver and Left is giver.

Keep in mind that the above mentioned things did NOT mean that we should start doing things in Right vs Left hand; it was just for the information. If some information could be utilized for the betterment for the health and/or spiritual progress then it doesn't hurt.

Edited by das

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To put it bluntly:

The devil in semitic tradition is represented as an entity that deviated from the creators hukum; whereas such a thing is not deemed possible in Sikhi?

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May I ask why it is not possible in Sikhi? After-all Sikhi also says that we do have free-will and we do use our free-will to do actions even though previous karma dictate the free-will to some extent. Also keep in mind that Sikhi is a religion/school where we have to study in order to be One with God. Subjects/Study is same in all religions but the way might be different.

If you don't like the idea of Kaal being an Evil entity; that's fine......believe in what you're thinking and continue the journey towards God. Assuming Kaal as an entity or not does not (and should not) create any problem in your destination. In other words, it does not matter if Kaal is entity or not, what does matter is: We have to merge with our Source. Period.

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May I ask why it is not possible in Sikhi? After-all Sikhi also says that we do have free-will and we do use our free-will to do actions even though previous karma dictate the free-will to some extent. Also keep in mind that Sikhi is a religion/school where we have to study in order to be One with God. Subjects/Study is same in all religions but the way might be different.

It's that knotty problem again, lol.

I get what you are saying with regard to our having some free will but I was alluding to:

ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

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Firstly acknowledging that there is currently high level academic debate going on about translations and their limitations, especially in the way in which they may actually skew meanings across languages and subtly embed conceptualisations from one belief system to another; I would say that we should acknowledge limitations in this respect.

After flagging that real concern, I might venture something like....

Divine order?

Waheguru's will?

Waheguru's system in the operation of creation?

All of the above are more than likely grossly insufficient.

Edited by dalsingh101

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Das as far as I understand, in Guru Granth Sahib, Sant Kabir only talks about Kaal as death/time. Where are you getting the Kaal = Shaitan notion? Can I see some excerpts from the book you are reading?

Bhagat,

I think it's more of an issue of them getting the shaitan=kaal, rather than kaal=shaitaan.

In other words, I think Das is saying what I think as well, that they make Devil as some kind of powerful opposite of God (like a duality)

whereas, it's the attributes of kaal that have been wrongly misinterpreted as the devil or a very high fallen God angel that went evil.

In that book mentioned, that none of us have, but I went through a long time ago, I concluded that it was Kaal - the same time bound negative entity in maya, that is classed as devil.

KAAL only has affect in MAYA.

When we are in turiya or chutha padh and out of the 3 gunas of maya, then we are also out of the bounds of kaal.

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Why, do you think Kaal can have influence when you are out of the 3 gunas of maya...ie.chuatha pad, turiya avastha...etc. ?

:huh:

cuz, I personally don't believe it can ! B)

So kaal/death and time have no influence on me when I am in turiyavastha. I get that Lucky but what does that have to do with shaitan/satan? I don't know what Radhaswamis believe, maybe you should elaborate on that in your answer.

Shaitan in Islam is the fallen angel who leads people away from Allah. He creates self doubt, makes us do immoral things, be angry, greedy and makes us narcissistic. You know Shaitan and Kaal both appear in Guru Granth Sahib, but their usage/meaning is completely different. In fact, it is Yamraj and Kaal that are used in similar contexts. Yamraj is the kind of the dead, the first man who died and declared himself king.

These things could be seen in the following works of Kabir:

Anurag Sagar

and

Bijak Of Kabir

I'll repeat: Can I see some excerpts from the book you are reading?

Maybe post page numbers and paragraph number?

Edited by BhagatSingh

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So kaal/death and time have no influence on me when I am in turiyavastha.

This 'time' is a referring to concept of time. ie... the space between Birth and Death is what kaal can play in.

From wha I understand-...If you are a jivan mukht and experiencing turiyaavastha, then you will have NO THOUGHTS and will be out of Kaal's bounds.,

But it's not to say that you won't escape from time, because the clock will still be ticking whilst you are in a state of sunn and sehaj, exepriencing chautha padh.

I'm not sure if you meant this ticking of clock whilst your mind is in turiyaavastha ?

I get that Lucky but what does that have to do with shaitan/satan?

What does it have to do ?....I don't know !

It came into the issue because of the mention that devil is an entity somewhat exaggerated by mistranslations. But the biblical references can be understood to be metaphorically talking about what we call Kaal. The controller of 5 dhut.

I don't know what Radhaswamis believe, maybe you should elaborate on that in your answer.

What do you mean ?

You think I'm a radhasoami ? :angry:

If I was forced to choose any one of the ''controversial' jathabandis, i would opt for 3ho ! :)

Shaitan in Islam is the fallen angel who leads people away from Allah. He creates self doubt, makes us do immoral things, be angry, greedy and makes us narcissistic. You know Shaitan and Kaal both appear in Guru Granth Sahib, but their usage/meaning is completely different. In fact, it is Yamraj and Kaal that are used in similar contexts. Yamraj is the kind of the dead, the first man who died and declared himself king.

Do you think there is a reason Yamraj and Kaal are used in similar contexts ?

Shaitaan and Kaal may both appear in gurbani, But are they mentioned in their own contexts ? OR- are they mentioned, so, as to differentiate ?

...........I don't think they are mentioned so as to differentiate at all, unless I missed the shabad.

I think the shaitan notions refer to evil doers and with regards to followers of those scriptures.

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Kaal is not Kalyug. Kaal is the Time and all yugs (Satyug/Treta/Duvapar/Kalyug) exist because of Kaal/Time. If you want to compare Kaal with some entity then the nearest one (with stepped-down energy) is Yamraj/Dharamraja. In other words, Yamraj/Dharamraja represent the Kaal because it punishes/rewards the people as per their deeds.

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I don't know, some people here are saying Kaal is Iblis/Devil which makes you do bad things which is what Kabir-Panthis/Radhasoamis say too, which I thought is similar to how some people mention how Kaliyug is. Now some are saying Kaal is similar to DharamRaj who gives justice or punishment based on one's karams. In Dasam Bani Guru Jee mentions Kaal many times, but Kaal as Guru Jee mentions is just another qualitative name(kirtam naam) of Vaheguru.

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chitrgupt is the recorder and keeper of deeds as you know.

Or, sometimes people refer to 2 beings being chitr & gupt keeping the balance like a scale with good and bad deeds on either side.

They are recording the works of kaal.

Where Kaal has played and sent us in doing deeds that go in opposite direction of God.

In this sense, I can imagine them on a similar level, as one sends out the influences for deeds and the other records them.

Then we have dharmraj on the throne who does a pre-karmic evaluation and is the keeper of the accounts.

Only HUKAM from the Higher One (waheguru ek onkaar) decides the fate and runs the show ...

(anyway,....that's my understanding. don't know if it helps ?)

I also believe that Chitrgupt was son of Lord 'Brahma', who was the appointed creator of the world

This brahma is not the same as waheguru-ek onkar.

Brahma = four headed god who created

'Brahm' = the Waheguru God- formless

(Again, this is my understanding so far, as I have only recently started to learn about these )

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Kaal is different in different scenarios. His official name is: Kaal Niranjan :D

Kaal is Iblis/Devil (Getting boons from Ek-Onkar; he also has free-will that he used to create the cycle of 84 lakh jonis). He does the wrong things but the results of his bad deeds (using his free-will) are loaded onto jivas.

Kaal is Mind (because it is the Mind who forces us to do bad things: Kaam, Krodh, Lob, Moh, Anhankar) but yet Jiva has to suffer)

Kaal is DharamRaj (because he is the stepped-down energy/power of Kaal; who this universe is like Hologram. Every part of a hologram contains the image of the whole object. In other words, Dharamraj represents the Kaal as like Kaal who created these karmas, dharamraj does the justice based upon one's karma.)

Kaal is Time (because in reality (Ek-Onkar) there is no time; it is just the creation of Kaal.)

ALL Quick healing comes from Kaal, be it acupressure or mudra or spiritual healing or western-medicine or any other known therapy.

Kaal is also called Death.

I've learnt one thing that: Do NOT get lost in who is what and what are its different meanings because going that route would create lot of problems for us. Just do simran.

I'm including here one of the question that was asked to Sant Kirpal Singh (taken from Spiritual Gems) and I think it does explain the Kaal perfectly:

QUESTION: A good man once spoke to me about the devil being an angel who has rebelled against God. Can this be true?

THE MASTER: That is metaphorically speaking. There are two powers. One is the Highest Power which is the Creator of all. Then, at a lower level, the Negative Power is made; that is always going into expression for the purpose of formation of the world. That is Brahm; it is made for that. So there is nothing devilish... Kabir says, God created two powers, Negative and Positive. Positive has its own work and Negative is going into expression. One goes in toward the Source, the other recedes outward. So truly speaking, there is no Satan, only those Powers are created Kal and Akal, Negative and Positive. They each have their own work Those under the command of the Negative Power, they always like to go out into expression. And those who want to come back again to their Home, naturally they follow the Positive way. That is given through the Saints: Contact with God into expression, called Naam or Word, which has got two manifestations, Light and Sound. When you are contacted with that, it will take you direct to the Source from where it emanated: the true Home of our Father. So there is no antagonism, but that [Negative Power] is made for the purpose of Creation; because He had to make the Creation.

If you light a candle, the flame will go up because the Source of light is the sun. If you invert it, even then the flame till go up, because the source is above. If you throw a clod of earth into the air, however forcefully you may send it, again it will come to the earth because the source of the clod is beneath. Similarly, mind is negative in its affect. It is always working to take you into expression. But the soul is of the Positive side, it wants to take you up to its own source. When soul is freed from the mind, that goes to God. So mind is made the purpose of keeping the world going. Without mind, the world could not go on. Kal and Akal both are expressions of the Absolute . . The Absolute is from where they all come. This is an intricate question, of course, but it can be understood this way.

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kaal cant be the devil because time (and space) are not the devil. Sikhisms stance therefore would be

that the asuri sampada (demonic influences) are the devil. Also known as Abibek these would be

vikaar, ignorance, laziness, violence etc

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kaal cant be the devil because time (and space) are not the devil. Sikhisms stance therefore would be

that the asuri sampada (demonic influences) are the devil. Also known as Abibek these would be

vikaar, ignorance, laziness, violence etc

Hanji... Kaal can't be the Devil.

I think what some of us were getting at is, that the Devil (the mistranslated one!) is Kaal.,.... but Kaal does not describe the devil !

I was thinking that the ''devil'' description is highly misconstrued in a very negatively strong way, in the sense that it comes across as something equally as powerful at the Lord himself but in an opposite and untruthful manner.

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Let's put it in a different way; Let's change the point of view.

Nothing is Devil if think of the whole creation. So-called Devil/Kaal is also working to maintain the 3 worlds. His job is to maintain 3 worlds.

e.g If furious wind is blowing causing lot of destruction, here are some of the point-of-view we might choose:

  • Call the wind "Devil" because it caused lot of destruction.
  • Call the wind "Angel" because it was trying to take away the polluted air with disease germs from the whole country.

Bigger picture is: Wind is fulfilling it's responsibilities given by the God. It's us who judge the work of wind and tag it as Devil or Angel etc.

In other words, Kaal has its' own duties that he is fulfilling. Everyone (including Kaal/Devil/what-ever) is working under the energy of One and Only One God/Waheguru.

If someone if interested in who is who; then I would suggest the works of Rudolf Steiner, Baba Sawan Singh or Baba Kirpal Singh, or some sections from some books available from Channeled Resources (the one came to mind is from "Ra"). But let me warn you that sometimes going into the technicalities of who is who would NOT help much in going to higher Spiritual knowledge.

Let me wrap the topic with this: Everything has 3 polarities: Positive, Negative, Neutral. So, let's say The real One and Only God is Neutral which is giving it's power so that His 2 counter-parts can work. One acts as 'Positive' taking us towards the Center; another force acts as 'Negative' taking us away from the Center. Each Positive or Negative has its own duty because if Negative is not working, then we'll merge with God but God wants the creation and hence Negative is required in order to sustain the creation.

Edited by das

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WJKK WJKF

Interesting topic, I believe that satan is actually a extra terrestrial. As is the god of abrahmic faiths. This so called "god" is actually the same as the Hindu Devta/devias throughout many different ages. The devil is as such, a opposite to the devte, a entity to educate against the education set by the devte without calling them the gods and goddesses of Hinduism. It much more than the confinement of the religion Hinduism. The devil is at war with the god if Abraham, who in essence is actually shiva the extra terrestrial being. All in all, shiva and satan are the creation of the creator, Akal purakh and this game is also wahegurus creation. The five vices are tools used by satan, but satan is not a metaphor for the five vices as the devte/devia where and are victims to the 5 vices, as is satan.

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