Akdam Chakar (Shabad Sidhi) And Yantars In Sikhism

[das]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh,

I was reading one of the Teeka that Kam veer has uploaded on gurmatveechar.com. I came across some things for which I would like to read more if someone has something to tell.

From where I can get Panderea (15th Yantar), Chauntiva (34th) Yantar, and Akdam Chakar (Shabad Sidhi). Is there more information on these and any related details?

Thanks

[das]

Does anyone have any information of these OR you just do not want to share it in fear that someone will tie you with Yantar manmat? If you've any information please do post some details.

[Mithar]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh,

I was reading one of the Teeka that Kam veer has uploaded on gurmatveechar.com. I came across some things for which I would like to read more if someone has something to tell.

From where I can get Panderea (15th Yantar), Chauntiva (34th) Yantar, and Akdam Chakar (Shabad Sidhi). Is there more information on these and any related details?

Thanks

Sorry, I have no idea about this stuff.

From which page number did you read this info from in the teeka?

[mit]

Das Ji, vahegurujikakhalsa vahegurujikifateh

Firstly a happy vaisakhi to you and everyone on here.

the information you require can be recieved form the Mukt Marg Granth. i know i read something like this in there, but could understand fully on what it had stated. Everything you want is in there and you can read it on Scribd.com if you havnt already got a copy. If you do get more information, i would greatly appreciate it if you could also share as im also very interested.

mit

[das]

Happy Vaisakhi to everyone,

Mithar:

It is written on page(85-86) or PDF's 87-88 for "Amir.Bhandar.Teeka.01.(GurmatVeechar.com).pdf".

Mit:

Thanks bhaji for information. I looked at "Mukh Marg Granth" but I couldn't understand fully. I even have a problem in general understanding "Mukt Marg Granth" because it is not formatted and therefore I could not understand which veede(technique) for which Shabad(Mantar). Do you or anyone know how to read "Mukt Marg Granth" effectively.

Thanks

[Kaljug]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh,

I was reading one of the Teeka that Kam veer has uploaded on gurmatveechar.com. I came across some things for which I would like to read more if someone has something to tell.

From where I can get Panderea (15th Yantar), Chauntiva (34th) Yantar, and Akdam Chakar (Shabad Sidhi). Is there more information on these and any related details?

Thanks

The Yantars you are talking about are on page 87 of the pdf (85 of the granth). They are variations of "magical" squares.

Akdam chakra is page 88 of the pdf (86 of the granth), though I have no idea what it is supposed to do.

K.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Kaljug

[das]

I've the access to Teeka but could not understand those pages (85, 86).....or you could say that I need more information.

[Maha Singh]

Yantars are visual aids to focus the mind, if you wish to use them then try to focus on the middle of the yantar with your third eye chakar without blinking, everything else around you should go super blury but the middle of the yantar will remain crystal clear. You will see a kind of aura around the circles of the yantar and everything starts moving about apart from the focus point in the middle. The middle section represents the Bindu, the spark that created the universe.

The most common yantar is Sri Yantar

http://www.mandalas.com/images/Lrg_image_Pages/yantras/SriYantraMagic_8.jpg

They are good if you wish to begin developing one minded focus.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Maha Singh

[SURYADEV]

In my understanding, Sri Yantra is used for worshipping Laksmi Ji. To gain wealth, proseperity etc. Can it be used if ones does simran of Waheguru mantra?

[Maha Singh]

Meditation goes beyond forms and desires. Learning how to focus the mind can go beyond using Yantars, anything can be used, the key on a keyboard, a candle flame, the tip of a pencil or even a dot on a wall. The practise is only there to make ones mind still and focussed. If your desire is for wealth your real aim is not enlightenment. Once that focus is developed, it should be used to look introspectively into yourself and focus your mind on the Vaheguroo that resides within you.

Meditation is the ability to silence the chattering of the mind by focussing on a single thing, when a Mantar such as Vaheguroo is focussed upon the other chatter is silenced but the ability to maintain that focus is what takes regular practise in order to become immersed deeply within Hari himself.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Maha Singh

[Silence]

The below is taken from http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=29976&t=29806#reply_29976 (by bhai kulbir singh)

(When bhai kulbir singh refers to bhai sahib he means Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji)

Once a gursikh came to Bhai Sahib and started talking about Anhad Shabad. He said that he could now clearly hear the bell ring, sometimes the roaring of clouds and even the flute. He wanted to confirm his spiritual state with Bhai Sahib. Bhai Sahib in response to his question said that he does not hear any of these voices and sounds i.e. instrumental sounds. At this he got greatly disheartened.

Bhai Sahib asked him what exactly he was doing while doing abhyaas. He said that he had a black dot on the wall for dhyaan (concentration) and he does one Siri Sukhmani Sahib paath looking at the dot. Then he keeps his mind quiet and tries to listen to the five kind of sounds. After a while he starts hearing a faint sound of bell, waterfall, flute etc. The black dot too illuminates and all this really motivated him and he started thinking that he was listening to Anhad Shabad.

Bhai Sahib did not doubt what he was telling because Bhai Sahib knew that this person was telling the truth. Bhai Sahib told him that they would discuss this again the next day. That day at night Bhai Sahib writes that he sat in Smadhi and tried to hear the five sounds this person was mentioning. He could not hear anything other than Gurmat Anhad Shabad (I will explain this later). Then Bhai Sahib brought down his surtee to a much lower level and he was surprised to hear that all five sounds could be heard at different levels. Bhai Sahib writes that there was not even 1/millionth anand or bliss in these instrumental sounds as compared to the Gurmat Anhad Shabad. Bhai Sahib right away came out of smadhi and immediately went to that gursikh who had asked this question from Bhai Sahib and told him that he was totally engaged in wrong anti-Gurmat practices. Bhai Sahib explained to him his experience and told him that little bit of concentration that he had attained was a result of Siri Sukhmani Sahib paath and he started hearing those instrumental sounds because he wanted to hear them. Bhai Sahib told him that Gurmat Anhad Shabad is way superior to this.

From this saakhi of Bhai Sahib we learn that these five shabads that RS talk about do exist but they are not attained by the way they work on it. Actually these five shabads are the invention or discovery of Yogis and RS has just adopted their theory. Gurmat does not believe in limited 5 shabads. Panch Shabad in Gurbani does not mean 5 Shabad but Panch means superior or greatest shabads. Gurmat believes in “Vajae Shabad Ghanaray” i.e. countless shabads and not only 5.

We all know that in Sach Khand divine praises of Vaheguru are sung and this language in which they are sung is beyond the 5 elements i.e. water, air, earth, fire and sky. Those praises of Vaheguru cannot be defined or explained in this world and can only be heard when our concentration or our mann (mind) goes beyond the 5 elements in Turiya Avastha or Chautha Padd. These praises or sifat-salaah of Vaheguru that goes on in Sach Khand is called Anhad Shabad. Gurbani that we have here in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is that baani of Sach Khand that is used to praise Vaheguru. Some how our Guru Sahib did this impossible task of bringing this "dhur kee baani" down here and this is why they wrote in Gurbani as follows:

SEHAJ KATHA PRABH KEE ATT MEETHEE, KATHEE AKATH KAHAANI ||

(Sehaj Katha i.e. Bani of Vaheguru is extremely sweet. The unspeakable or unexplainable katha of Vaheguru has been spoken or explained).

The divine praises of Vaheguru going on in Sach Khand and sung by bhagats there are Anhad Shabads or Anhat Shabads that Gursikhs here hear when they reach Dasam Duaar.

According to the books of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee Dasam Duaar is not a land of mandal as RS believes in. It is such a doorway or place within the body from where one can experience what is going on in Sach Khand. Dasam Duaar is in our Body and sitting in this human body one can experience the nazaaray of Sach Khand. This is what Dasam Duaar is. Read 38th pauri of Siri Anand Sahib for details on this.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Silence

[mit]

Das Ji

I asked someone to help understand Mukt Marg granth and i got told i had 'Brahmin Matt' and that i was an RSS agent! thats indian menatlity! i then asked another giani to help me, and he also said that he had issues understanding it. As for the yantras, i have heard and seen of 2. One had the Guru Gayatri Ji from Jaap Sahib ji. In the Mukt Marg Granth, there is some where where it states that you have 6 boxes and in each box there is a each letter of satnam.S-T-N-M etc for the yantra, it was really complicated. there is also a a manglacharan which states the praise of Laxmi Ji in Sahib Sri Sarabloh Granth Ji. Also, in the Mukht Marg Granth, dasam ji states in one paath 'Ik-ong-kaar Sri Ganesayi Namaha' Is this meaning Ganesh Ji, or am i mis-interpreting something?

I will honestly say, this forum has helped me immensely. We need to keep topics like this going and the admins support. This is the core of sikhi if you ask me. It has helped me under stand that Guru Granth Sahib ji is not a book, but the Jot Of the 10 Gurus!

God Bless

Mit.

[Silence]

One who has had naam drir from panj pyare will never have a need for such techniques, nor will the question arise of how to/where to focus, it is all taught in naam drir, and its something very different and much much higher than this yantra stuff.

kindly search the term 'yantra' on sridasam.org, you will find such quotes as the following:

Page 66, Line 3

He is not within Yantras and tantras, He cannot be brought under control through Mantras.

Page 67, Line 7

He is neither Tantra , nor a mantra nor the form of Yantra.

Page 70, Line 14

He is the Primal and Infinite Purusha without any Yantra, Mantra and Tantra.

Page 71, Line 12

He cannot be overpowered by Yantras and Mantras, He never yielded before Tantras and Mantras.

Page 90, Line 12

He is without Yantra (mystical diagram) and caste, without father and mother and presumed as the splash of Perfect beauty.

Page 104, Line 5

Though one may write many Yantras and recite millions of mantras, even then he cannot be saved. No other shelter can save one without His refuge.61.

Page 104, Line 6

The writers of Yantras have grown weary and the reciters of mantras have accepted defeat. But ultimately, they all have been destroyed by KAL.

Page 106, Line 11

There is no other protection without coming under His shelter, even though many Yantras be written and millions of Mantras be recited.77.

and so on.

[Maha Singh]

^ So we may as well forget using Vaheguroo Mantar then according to the tuks you have posted.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Maha Singh

[das]

Thanks Mit veer for the information. It really helps.

Silence, I'm not interested in starting debate "Whether Yantars are Sikhi or not thing". Please add if you've anything to answer my questions.

Any other members do you have more information on Yantars, Akdam Chakar, and how to understand Mukt Marg Granth? PLEASE PLEASE post those details.

das

[Silence]

^ So we may as well forget using Vaheguroo Mantar then according to the tuks you have posted.

GURMAT NAAM is something very different to the mantars that the tuks refer to.

The proof is in the incident I shared in my first post in this thread.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Silence

[mit]

Das,

are you in the uk?? is it possible to pm me your email address?

Good pint silance, please can you elaborate?

mit.

[Maha Singh]

Gurbani refers to Anhad Shabad, Anhad Bani and Anhad Dhuni, what is the difference between this Anhad Shabad and the Gurmat Anhad Shabad spoken of by Randhir Singh?

If you say its the same, then what is the difference between a common persons Anhad Shabad (if that exists) and the Gurmat Anhad Shabad spoken of by Randhir Singh?

If the Hari that resides within all is the same, the experience of Hari should also be the same. There is no difference in devotion, and true Bhagats will only witness bairaag, love, prema bhagti and devotion with the same emotion. It is like saying love is a unique emotion depending on the person who experiences it or who they express it to.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Maha Singh

[Matheen]

^ So we may as well forget using Vaheguroo Mantar then according to the tuks you have posted.

Those tuks refer to mantars like the ones used by people to bring other people under their control, black-magic, tantra, kalaams etc.

Gurbani is something different altogether, and Waheguru (Gurmantar) is unique amongst all mantars, there is nothing else like it, and never wiil be. There are no words to describe it.

Anyway, Silence veera, some people just have an interest in improving concentration etc. We also have threads on here about weight-training advice etc, yet the body is maya and going to be burned at the end. Hope you get the point.

[das]

Silence and Maha Singh veero PLEASE start this debate on seperate thread and add my this response there:

I believe that Everything in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a Mantra. "WAHEGURU" being the GurMantar/Naam/Gur-Shabad/Updesh.

Basically, Mantra is a divine combination of divine syllables or sounds which when chanted with devotion,faith and emotion gravitate the concerned God or Goddess or deity and secure their divine blessings. Every Mantra has its own unique effect(s). Some people do have allergy to word "Mantra" and they say Sikhism does not believe in Mantra and all the Gurbani has same effect and there is no use to do some particular Path in particular veedi(method); these people are wrong as every Mantra has its only effects and has to done in proper method. For more details, read books like: Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji's Anand Chamatkar, Sant Isher Singh Ji's diary, Sant Waryam Singh Ji books on "Baat Agam Ki", "Amar Gatha" etc. etc. You can also found information about 5 shabad, Anhad Shabad etc. in Sant Waryam Singh Ji's books and Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji's deewan.

Everything has to done in particlar format using some formula. GOD canNOT be attained by shear force. Everything in this universe has some formula e.g airplanes with soo much weight flies in air because the scientists found the formula. Another example would be: try lifting a big 500 kilo stone with your bare hands, and then try with one rod underneath the stone and try rolling it....there would be great difference...........Same thing for Mantra, Yantra, and Tantra. BUT that does NOT mean that Yantra can do all the things for you. That's where the Tuks you posted applies. Moreover, these Yantra does have effect but the knowledge to use these Yantras and Mantra can ONLY be learnt from True Saints or from Guru Ji's Granths.......and NOT through normal Pandits etc.

So, it is VERY important that you don't depend upon Yantras and run to them for all your problems. Yantra ONLY works if WAHEGURU wants them to. Same thing applies to Reiki, Prana, Acupressure, Homepathic, Allopathy medicines......medicines work ONLY if GOD wants them to. So, still the root is WAHEGURU and if HE provides us with some technique to ease you, then its not bad.

das

[Kaljug]

I've the access to Teeka but could not understand those pages (85, 86).....or you could say that I need more information.

The information is all on that page, but it's not particularly clear what all the yantras are used for and how.

These kinds of yantras are written for various material effects, eg the first pandriya one is written and kept in a shop to bring business success (presumably because the square is associated with Ganesha), the second one is another form of the same 3x3 magic square. The next one is formed by assigning numbers to each syllable of Ekoankar Satinam Waheguru as follows

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Ekoankar Sa Ti Na Mu Wa Hi Gu Ru

then replacing the numbers in the pandriya yantra with the assocated syllable. The last one is written and the associated shabad is recited over it to cure a sick person. They are called pandriya yantras because they are based on the 3x3 magic square in which each column and row adds up to 15.

The Chontiya yantra (or chautisa yantra as it's usually called) is the 4x4 magical square and the one on that page actually contains an embedded pandriya yantra. It's called chontiya yantra because each row and column adds up to 34.

You can find some more information on magic squares here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_square

They are different to the yantras that Maha Singh is talking about which are supposed to geometrically depict some aspect of the supreme being or a devata.

Gurbani teaches against worshipping yantras as Hindus do because it is impossible to encapsulate, contain or describe Akal Purakh who is Nirguna Brahman with such geometrical pictures and numerical games.

K.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Kaljug

[das]

Very useful information Kalyug veer. Thanks for that. Do you happen to have any information on Akdam Chakar??

Edited April 16, 2011 by das

[Kaljug]

Very useful information Kalyug veer. Thanks for that. Do you happen to have any information on Akdam Chakar??

Akdam chakra seems to be a Gurmukhi version of the Sanskrit Akathaha Chakra from Mantra Shastra which is used to determine how suitable a mantra is for someone to recite.

In Mantra Shastra you have four main divisions of the types of mantras - Siddha (accomplished), Susiddha (fully accomplished), Sadya (fit for accomplishment), Ari (enemy). These can be further subdivided into a total of 16 divisions by taking combinations of these 4 qualities so you have Siddha-Siddha, Siddha-Sussidha, Siddha-Sadya, Siddha-Ari and so one with the rest. Each combination is supposed to have different affects, eg if you recite a Sadhya-Ari mantra, you may succeed with it, but your family will die.

You find out which combination a mantra will be for you by taking the first letter of the name of the person, and starting with that letter in the Akathaha Chakra count clockwise to the first letter of the mantra the person wants to recite. Tha Akathaha chakra is formed by drawing a square and dividing into sixteen equal squares. The first letter of the alphabet in the first square, second in the second, third in the third and the fourth in the fourth square has to written respectively, and so on until all the letters are used up.

You can see a picture of the Akathaha chakra here:

http://www.manblunder.com/2009/02/blog-post.html

The counting of the squares should be clockwise starting with the square in which the first letter of the name of the student appears. If both come in the first square of the first row, then the mantra is known as Siddha (accomplished). When it is in the squares of the second row then the mantra is known as Sadhya (fit for accomplishment) in the squares of the third row it is Susiddha (fully accomplished), and if it be in the squares of the fourth row, it is Ari (enemy). If the first letters of both come in the first, second, third and the fourth squares of the first row, then the mantra is known as Siddha-Siddha, Siddha-Sadhya, Siddha-Susiddha and Siddhari respectively. Then if they come in the four squares of the second row, it is Sadhya-Siddha, Sadhya-Sadhya, Sadhya-Susiddha and SadhySri respectively. If they come in the four squares of the third row, it is Susiddha-Siddha, Susiddha-Sadhya, Susiddha-Susiddha and Susiddhari, respectively, and if they be in those of the fourth row, it is Ari-Siddha, Ari-Sadhya, Ari Susiddha and Ari-Ari respectively.

The Amir Bhandar Steeka it seems to suggest a similar methodology. The Akdam Chakra is made by drawing a circle with 12 segments and writing the letters of the Gurmukhi alphabet clockwise. It starts with the first vowel sound then goes clockwise in the outermost circle, then you carry on with the rest of the alphabet in a clockwise fashion. The word Akdam comes from the letters in the first segment A K D M. There's a mistake in the printing though. Where the second ਕ in the 5th segment is, it should actually be a ਙ.

In the Amir Bhandar Steeka's methodology, the 1st (AKDM segment), 5th and 9th segments are designated siddha; 2nd, 6th and 10th sadhya; 3rd, 7th, 11th susiddha; 4th, 8th, 12th ari. At least this is what think it means on cursory reading. I'm hoping someone will be able to clarify the details though.

On a personal note, I don't see how any of this stuff applies with Gurbani since Gurbani is Dhur ki bani. In Hindumat, if a mantra is not suitable for a sadhak, his guru can still make the mantra suitable by adding various bija mantras. Who can alter dhur ki bani to make it better than it is?

K.

[amardeep]

I read the part yo're refering to and I thought it was a bit to mumbo jumbo to tbe true. When the siddhs ask Guru Nanak if his mantars has 7 syllables then a part of mool mantar having 7 syllables are recited. When a mantar of 8 is asked for, another word from the mool mantar is added and then you have a 8 syllable mantar etc etc..

this is not anything unusual as such as you can do this with everything,.. However I dont know much about this subject so maybe its normal in the sense, I just found it a bit dodgy to begin with, that you just add a new word depending on what you're asked for and suddenly woow it fits

[das]

FYI

I found another name for Akdam Chakra (Gurmukhi version) or Akathaha Chakra (Sanskrit). Another name is "Wheel of Pythagoras". There seems to be some information regarding "Wheel of Pythagoras" as compared to Akdam Chakra. It's good to know that number of unrelated cultures use the same principles.

Edited May 30, 2012 by das