Chanting Simran Loudly

[SURYADEV]

Is there a reason behind chanting simran very loudly when doing kirtan - as in AKJ style? The almost shouting, beating of the tabla; very aggressively etc. Its quite common these days with many kirtaniye.

On the other hand I think you have Guriqbal Singh, who does it quite slowly and softly.

Is it a personal preference or is the effects different from a spritual/psychological POV?

[Mithar]

Is there a reason behind chanting simran very loudly when doing kirtan - as in AKJ style? The almost shouting, beating of the tabla; very aggressively etc. Its quite common these days with many kirtaniye.

On the other hand I think you have Guriqbal Singh, who does it quite slowly and softly.

Is it a personal preference or is the effects different from a spritual/psychological POV?

I think it is JOSH. The more a person has josh the louder they will do kirtan and simran, and that has the effect of making the sangat also very josheela.

[SURYADEV]

thats the effect it has on me.

But what if the aim ought to be to calm the spirit/mind/emotions by doing simran? I cant see that be achieved by doing simran in the sangat.

[dalsingh101]

I think a significant aspect of simran is to be singularly focused, if so, the 'aggressive' loud style can help achieve a feeling of being lost in the moment quite well.

I do however notice that people seem to have different levels of what I will call 'neurological sensitivity'. So the people whose neural networks are very delicate and who can become relatively 'over-stimulated' quite easily would find the AKJ style over overwhelming and distracting. Other people with more desensitised neural networks would probably find that approach quite helpful to achieving that focused frame of mind.

???

[Parchand]

if you look at the use of harmonium waja and the style of kirtan, the way the tabla is being played, saas giraas simran, etc. a lot of this is post-singh sabha reproduction of namdhari simran. thats why they were called 'kookay'.

some people prefer the antique, others like reproductions. my opinion is even today, kookay utilise saas-giraas simran more effectively whereas for other people; techniques and basic knowledge is used as a means of social division

[amardeep]

I dont think you can call it naamdhari simran as naamdharis usually do kirtan with classical instruments, and I dont think you can play kirtan in akj style with classical instruments... the strings will break lol

[dalsingh101]

With no intended offense to anyone, it is a tad bit ironic that the simran techniques followed by the followers of Bhai Randhir Singh utilises an instrument that was introduced to us by firenghees.

Plus that was a good point about people using different techniques to mark themselves from other groups of Sikhs with a different practice.

Can someone go over the saas giraas techniques again please?

[Parchand]

certainly the simran technique comes from kookay at the least.

the harmonium waja may have been introduced at the time of the british since it was more portable and easier to play for the masses than classical instruments and as a response to christian missionaries with their easily sung gospel.

what is now the singh sabha majority mainstream sikhee was then merely a response to the heightened parchaar of christianity, arya samaj etc. they needed a quick simple ploy to gain "sikh converts" so they took sikh dharma and broke it down into a simple codified set of rules. instead of ten commandments we had panj vikaar & rehit maryada. suddenly we had a sikh version of baptism. instead of the cross, try some kakaars

Dharma is much deeper than this..

saas giraas is just 1 of many techniques. if there was an akj member he'd say you'd have to visit an amrit sanchaar & be given this by panj pyare to be given Naam by them to learn it correctly. in the same way radhasoamis are secretive of the 5 naams their babay give them at their own version of baptism.

it goes along the lines of when you breathe in, say Wahe, when you breathe out, say Guru

[Xylitol]

certainly the simran technique comes from kookay at the least.

the harmonium waja may have been introduced at the time of the british since it was more portable and easier to play for the masses than classical instruments and as a response to christian missionaries with their easily sung gospel.

what is now the singh sabha majority mainstream sikhee was then merely a response to the heightened parchaar of christianity, arya samaj etc. they needed a quick simple ploy to gain "sikh converts" so they took sikh dharma and broke it down into a simple codified set of rules. instead of ten commandments we had panj vikaar & rehit maryada. suddenly we had a sikh version of baptism. instead of the cross, try some kakaars

Dharma is much deeper than this..

saas giraas is just 1 of many techniques. if there was an akj member he'd say you'd have to visit an amrit sanchaar & be given this by panj pyare to be given Naam by them to learn it correctly. in the same way radhasoamis are secretive of the 5 naams their babay give them at their own version of baptism.

it goes along the lines of when you breathe in, say Wahe, when you breathe out, say Guru

Rahit has existed since the Guru's time, same with Amrit and the kakaars. There is plenty of evidence, oral and written, even that held by non-singh sabha sampradas, of this.

[dalsingh101]

Rahit has existed since the Guru's time, same with Amrit and the kakaars. There is plenty of evidence, oral and written, even that held by non-singh sabha sampradas, of this.

I would agree bar the 5 kakkars, I think they were tre mudra, or three symbols originally. That isn't to say Singhs didn't wear the 5 kakkar from day one, but the name in that form seems to come later.

[Parchand]

just to clarify i'm not questioning the existence of a rehit, just dont think they were as codified as we see today.

back in 1699, i cant see our Guru telling the original panj pyare which leg to use to put on your kachhera first or going into many black & white rules .. maybe thats shortsightedness on my part.

kakaars i'd tag along the lines of what dal said. amrit we agree on.

the gyst of what i was saying was the singh sabha reforms were aimed at simplifying sikh dharma into a religion that was easier to disseminate amongst the masses & easier to gain 'converts'.

it was essentially a 'wave the magic wand' approach & hey presto! you're a sikh. alakazam.. you're a khalsa! some of this still goes on today

[dalsingh101]

the gyst of what i was saying was the singh sabha reforms were aimed at simplifying sikh dharma into a religion that was easier to disseminate amongst the masses & easier to gain 'converts'.

More specifically I'd say some of what you mention is more the result of post enlightenment influence in terms of the obsession Europeans had with categorisation, which they took to extreme levels as demonstrated with their enormous collections of butterflies and beetles and the like!

This seems to be a central underpinning of their knowledge acquisition. It directly led to the development of databases.

I don't think the Sabhias were fully conscious of how they were affected with their British education at the time. I don't think they were consciously simplifying but rather scaffolding their religio-cultural inheritance in the types of frameworks/paradigms they had learned from whites.

That made the faith easier to understand in terms of that worldview which depends on systemisation. Whilst doing this they were also demarcating more solid boundaries of the faith (in relation to things Hindu) which were quite porous by then. A large measure of this was politically motivated.

Edited April 17, 2011 by dalsingh101

[fatehsingh]

if you look at the use of harmonium waja and the style of kirtan, the way the tabla is being played, saas giraas simran, etc. a lot of this is post-singh sabha reproduction of namdhari simran. thats why they were called 'kookay'.

I'm speechless. The lack of awareness. I give up.

[laalsingh]

I'm speechless. The lack of awareness. I give up.

Enlighten us, Kooka ji.

[fatehsingh]

Namdhari creation - 1857

Became known as Kukas - 1863

Singh Sabha Amritsar creation - 1873

Singh Sabha Lahore creation - 188x

Gurbani says not to chant Gurmantar loudly - "Ucha Nahi Kena Mann Mein Rehna"

How did the guy came up with Nsmdharis doing simran with harmoniums like AKJ and being a "post Singh sabhia" revolution etc.... I don't know

[Parchand]

firstly, when we're replying to someone at least look if someone has later qualified an earlier response, which i did, stating i was referring to the simran technique in particular which was similar to that used by kookay.

secondly, when we're going to reply, don't re-post one sentence as its easy to take something stated out-of-context.

lastly, if i wanted to make a comment showing my "lack of awareness" or cause offence, there's plenty i could have said but didnt as i genuinely believe whatever group you follow, its all good, we're all brothers/sisters & should treat each other with pyaar

[fatehsingh]

I'm sorry. I guess it's my own lack of awareness. When you say akj simran I think of the loud bang bang and "groo groo" audio someone posted on YouTube a while back. So I'm not aware of how it is the least bit similar to Namdharis who became Mast upon hearing Gurbani being sung or the Darshan of the Satguru, and not while doing simran.

[Parchand]

i apologise too, especially if any offence was caused.

regarding Gurmat Sangeet, a huge debt of gratitude is owed to Namdhari Sikhs for maintaining the Vidya of Raags & Classical instruments in our community which would otherwise have been lost. indeed my favourite kirtanis are Namdharis.

regarding the term 'kooka' i believed it was widely accepted that its origins came from the cyclical method/technique of Naam simran & the effect on speech during this ecstasy and Mast. some references:

Khushwant Singh, A History of the Sikhs, vol. 2, p128-9

Kuk, in PUNJABI, means a scream or shout. While chanting the sacred hymns at their religious congregations, the adherents of the new order broke into ecstatic cries which led to their being called Kukas.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Namdhari

Kenneth W Jones, Socio-religious reform movements in British India, p91 (can be viewed at following link)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PoBJJej_IiwC&lpg=PA90&dq=namdhari&pg=PA91#v=onepage&q=namdhari&f=false

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/namdhari.html

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/historical-events/historical-sikh-events-namdhari-kuka-movement.html

Regarding comparisons with akhand kirtani jatha not just with regards to simran:

They do a particular form of ‘Naam Simran’ (contemplation), a forerunner to Akhand Kirtani ‘Sas Gras’

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_samparda_namdhari15.html

http://neo-sikhism.blogspot.com/2008/11/comparison-of-akhand-kirtan-sect-and.html

[Sat1176]

Is there a reason behind chanting simran very loudly when doing kirtan - as in AKJ style? The almost shouting, beating of the tabla; very aggressively etc. Its quite common these days with many kirtaniye. On the other hand I think you have Guriqbal Singh, who does it quite slowly and softly. Is it a personal preference or is the effects different from a spritual/psychological POV?

I explanation I have heard recently for chanting simran loudly is so that you force your mind to listen to the Shabad and stop it wondering. Its like beating it with a stick. But eventually you will get tired and have to lower the volume and enter a more sehj state. i.e. Bhakhri to Madhma...

Edited July 4, 2012 by Sat1176

[chatanga1]

with simran you have to listen and concentrate on the word you are saying. I dont do it loud, in fact i kinda detest it. I can understand though some people starting it loud, then as their mind settles, the noise lowers, also from the very few rainsbais ive been to, usually it is the other way around, the sangat is not very loud to begin withm, but get progressively louder and louder.

[chatanga1]

was reminded about how sufi's start their worship, first moving slowly and getting into the rythem, before standing up and twirling around.

[Sat1176]

Doing simran in any sangat can be very rewarding and uplifting. What makes the experience even more divine is when the sangat does it in totally harmony and in sync. What totally throws me off is sitting next to someone who decides they want to be louder than everyone else and slightly faster or ahead. Completely makes me loose track and get frustrated. My ears are not adept enough to filter them out... Especially when they decide have their vocal cords on full blast.

[Guest Pavanjit Singh]

Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Ji Ki Fateh Guru Pyareo...

We need to do loud simran, because when we do simran softly (in sehaj), our mind wonders out of the nine gates. To make habit of our mind to listen to gurmantar (vaheguroo), we need to start of with simran as loud as possible (as loud as your body allows), in this way as we do more and more abhiyas, our mind starts to listen to gurmantar and take less thoughts (furne). So basically, loud simran is needed to make our deaf mind listen to gurmantar because at the moments it only listen to the 5 choor.

 

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Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Ji Ki Fateh Guru Pyareo...